Tantilla!!!

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Noah M
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Tantilla!!!

Post by Noah M »

I'm SO excited. I have been hunting these for longer than I care to admit, just ask our own Daniel Dye. Anyway, I went to a friends place and we turned up this one.

Tantilla spp. #1

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And then, I checked my boards in my garden and HOLY COW I got another. I've never seen one there. The second is photographed on my kitchen table; I'll be putting it back in the garden tomorrow.

Tantilla spp. #2
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Now for the serious bit. These are both Alachua County Tantilla. The 1st one is from the far west side of the county, and the second one is pretty central, southern Alachua County. Are these different subspecies? I notice right away that only a couple of scales on the first one produce a light break between the head and neck, but on the one from my garden there is a light band separating the head and neck. If I would guess, the first one is Tantilla relicta neilli and the second one is Tantilla relicta relicta.

What do you think?
kwross
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by kwross »

That is amazing :beer:
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mtratcliffe
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by mtratcliffe »

Glad you finally turned some up!
simus343
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by simus343 »

The second looks like the Tantilla coronata that I get here in NW Fla.

I never would've thought that I would find them beneath my backyard boards, but I still did - very muddy packed dirt, not the sand I normally find them under. I guess so long as centipedes are present though, they can be too.

Something neat and sad that we found out where I work, if a drift fence trench is dug it will fill up with Tantilla. The sad part is this occurs overnight, during which a wasp species will attack and kill them. Now the rule is we need to install the fence for and fill in whatever we dig before they day is out so that doesn't happen. Based on this though, I'd gander that they are a very abundant species wherever they occur, just like ringnecks, just more fossorial in their habits.
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BillMcGighan
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by BillMcGighan »

I don't believe Tantilla relicta relicta is considered to be found north of Marion County, but that definitely looks like an intergrade, leaning to the general look of Trr.



Other considerations:
...Though we love to align these animals in clear cut bins of ID, range maps generally have irregular habitat extensions ( a river bottom, sand hill highlands, etc.) that are not represented.
... Could be just an variable individual.
... Could be the head and neck darkening is an ontogenetic change, and yours is young.



Be interesting what DNA shows in the future in all Florida "Tantilla", if "relicta" subspecies are valid.
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Noah M
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by Noah M »

I can't seem to find much information on this species. The FLMNH says that Trr is found in Marion county southwrd following the central ridge. Bartlett's book says they range as far north as Melrose, which is north and east of where I found #2. The FLMNH also says there is a disjunct population of them around Cedar Key in Levy, which Bartlett's doesn't mention.

Trn on the other hand according to the FLMNH is said to range in the northern peninusla between the Suwannee and St. Johns rivers, which is a pretty big area. Bartlett's book make it seems like the range is more narrow. It seems that there may be places of overlap.

If both range descriptions are correct, then Trn's range is sandwiched between the Trr ranges, because of the disjunct Cedar Key population.

Tantilla #2 looks like it has some Trr in it. It was found about 10 miles north of Marion County, and 20 miles west southwest of Melrose.

It seems like it really is a wild guess at this point.
Coluber Constrictor
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by Coluber Constrictor »

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Daniel D Dye
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by Daniel D Dye »

Congratulations are in order, Noah! Great find!

Great photos!
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walk-about
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by walk-about »

Congrats on your finds Noah. Great looking tiny beasts! If in fact these are Tantilla coronata and what looks like a possible 'relicta' this would reflect 'hybridization' and not intergradation. The second picture looks like a 'standard issue' SE Crowned Snake that I see up here in KY. That first snake looks like 'relicta' and with a very interesting subtle, mid-dorsal line. Thank you for sharing.

Dave
simus343
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by simus343 »

walk-about wrote:Congrats on your finds Noah. Great looking tiny beasts! If in fact these are Tantilla coronata and what looks like a possible 'relicta' this would reflect 'hybridization' and not intergradation. The first picture looks like a 'standard issue' SE Crowned Snake that I see up here in KY. That second snakes looks like 'relicta' and with a very interesting subtle, mid-dorsal line. Thank you for sharing.

Dave
It is interesting that you say that, because the second looks like the coronata that I get in Okaloosa and Walton counties, not a relicta. Perhaps morphological variation within various populations of the same species?
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Noah M
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by Noah M »

walk-about wrote:Congrats on your finds Noah. Great looking tiny beasts! If in fact these are Tantilla coronata and what looks like a possible 'relicta' this would reflect 'hybridization' and not intergradation. The second picture looks like a 'standard issue' SE Crowned Snake that I see up here in KY. That first snake looks like 'relicta' and with a very interesting subtle, mid-dorsal line. Thank you for sharing.

Dave

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Neither of these are Tantilla coronata. They're both Tantilla relicta, and probably both are Tantilla relicta neilli. The one from the east side of the county is showing influence from Tantilla relicta relicta, if you accept subspecies.
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Stohlgren
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by Stohlgren »

Yes, neither of these is T. coronata. T. coronata and T. r. relicta look very similar (see photos below). Noah, I agree your specimens look like neilli and relicta, but there is probably a decent amount of integredation going on in the area. I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about it, rather go out and find a bunch more and see if you can find a trend.

T. coronata (Tatnall Co., GA)
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T. r. relicta (Highlands Co., FL)
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simus343
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by simus343 »

Okay now that I see those two side by side I see the differences, although minuet.

I must say I'm glad we are paying all this attention to a fossorial species. So many people tend to just glaze over them it seems, perhaps because they are so small and earthen in color.
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Noah M
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by Noah M »

I found it again. I feel like it is very likely to be the same one I found earlier in my garden. It has the same short tail, the same scarring or discoloration behind the head, and it was found under the exact same board. Or stubby tails are pretty common, and the board is a great micro habitat for Tantilla....

From November 20th
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From December 21st
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Noah M
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by Noah M »

November
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December
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simus343
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by simus343 »

May be the same one based on the stub on the tail. None I've ever found have a stubbed tail like that. Though I will say, plywood boards are great Tantilla habitat. Tantilla and Ringnecks, all the time under mine at home and more recently some Tantilla under my metal AC at work.
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Noah M
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by Noah M »

I've never seen a ringer under my boards. I used to turn up Rhadinaea quite frequently though. I haven't seen that many this year. But I'll gladly take a Tantilla now and again instead of more Rhadinaea.
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Berkeley Boone
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Re: Tantilla!!!

Post by Berkeley Boone »

Yes, it is the same one Noah- the patterns of the coloration on the nose verifies it.

Nice finds! Been a while since I have seen any Tantilla. Not in their neck of the woods as often as I would like.

--Berkeley
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