Give me your input on Data Request form

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Don Becker
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Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Don Becker » September 29th, 2012, 3:24 pm

http://www.naherp.com/test/request.html

It doesn't do anything yet. I figured I would get input on it before doing the backend programming for it. I have been wanting to do this for a while, to have one less area where myself or any future DC would need to be able to see what counties a restricted record is in. Requests are done at a county level, because if we allowed it at a lower level, say a bounding GPS box, it could be used to reveal localities for some species.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Don Becker » September 29th, 2012, 3:27 pm

Oh, I need to add options to request only records with vouchers. Do I need to add an option to request data with GPS? We have old records without it, but moving forward all will have it.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by spinifer » September 29th, 2012, 6:00 pm

A few comments:

First you linked to Article IX when you meant to link to Article XII (Doh!).

Add a box for affiliation under name.

You might want to state the max text that is allowed per box, if there is a max.

I suggest adding "Please give us provide a description of your project and a reason for your request ."

"Describe any risk involved in releasing data to your project (eg. How will data be presented?, Will locality data be made public?, etc.)

I would add Time Frame, so people can request data by a range of years.

Do you want to add choices as to how data should be released eg. password protected access, CSV, KML, etc?

Should probable add a Database manager contact at the bottom of the form in case someone has questions.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by spinifer » September 29th, 2012, 6:12 pm

psyon wrote:Oh, I need to add options to request only records with vouchers. Do I need to add an option to request data with GPS? We have old records without it, but moving forward all will have it.

FYI - short and bulk form still permit records to be entered without GPS....at least they will up until about 5 mins after Don reads this. :lol:

I dont think you need to add the GPS only option.

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Don Becker
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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Don Becker » September 29th, 2012, 6:36 pm

spinifer wrote:FYI - short and bulk form still permit records to be entered without GPS....at least they will up until about 5 mins after Don reads this. :lol:
Short form shouldn't, but I'll look into bulk.

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Don Becker
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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Don Becker » September 29th, 2012, 6:40 pm

Doh! Typo on bulk form, should be fixed.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Fundad » September 30th, 2012, 8:56 am

Personally I am not a fan of the short form.. :lol:

I like Nate's additions. :thumb:

I think we should add an option box for non GPS records.. Many of those records have the locality field filled out, therefore might add value.


Might consider just adding the bylaw you reference at the bottom of the page?

Also you might consider a taxonomy notes place. In case there is taxonomy confusion and they want to chase down all possible matches?

Fundad

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Don Becker » September 30th, 2012, 9:12 am

Fundad wrote:I think we should add an option box for non GPS records.. Many of those records have the locality field filled out, therefore might add value.
My current form that I use to associate records with requests allows me to search if the record has specific locations. It checks if either the GPS coordinates are filled in, or if something is filled into the locale field.
Might consider just adding the bylaw you reference at the bottom of the page?
My only reason for not doing that, is that I don't want the bylaws quoted all over the place, and having to update them in many places if they ever change.
Also you might consider a taxonomy notes place. In case there is taxonomy confusion and they want to chase down all possible matches?
I debated using the type in field that I want to put on the record forms.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Fundad » September 30th, 2012, 10:03 am

My current form that I use to associate records with requests allows me to search if the record has specific locations. It checks if either the GPS coordinates are filled in, or if something is filled into the locale field.
On the current form do they have a choice for that?

Fundad

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Don Becker
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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Don Becker » September 30th, 2012, 2:01 pm

Well, the current form is just that they email me and tell me what they need. On that form I put up, nope, no option, I wasn't sure if I needed to add it since all records going forward will have them.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Fundad » September 30th, 2012, 2:13 pm

I wasn't sure if I needed to add it since all records going forward will have them.
It would be a sham to not include them, if they wanted those records?

Did we include the GPS less records in California's latest request? Or even offer them?

Same goes for the voucher less.

IMHO
Fundad

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by spinifer » September 30th, 2012, 3:06 pm

Fundad wrote:I think we should add an option box for non GPS records.. Many of those records have the locality field filled out, therefore might add value.
My suggestion was that they get ALL the records (GPS and no GPS) with no option to exclude GPS-less records. If they find the records without GPS are of no value they can just throw them out. On the other hand, they might want to contact a record holder and get the GPS or a more exact location. Since going forward there will be fewer and fewer GPS-less records there is no need for the option.

For vouchers, I think there should be a box that says "include vouchered records only". if they dont select that box, the get both vouchered and voucherless records.

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Don Becker
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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Don Becker » September 30th, 2012, 4:35 pm

Fundad wrote:Did we include the GPS less records in California's latest request? Or even offer them?
If you mean the latest turtle request, then they go only records that included GPS coordinates, and I included voucherless records as well. Their goal was to map locations where invasive and native turtles exist, so not having specific location didn't do them any good.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Fundad » October 1st, 2012, 5:31 am

Hmm,

So .25 miles north of street 5 in dilly creek, isn't good enough for a map?

Fundad

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by chrish » October 1st, 2012, 5:36 am

- We should add a box/line at the top for "Institution or Organization"

- Could we add a series of check boxes for the type of data they are requesting? Records with GPS, elevations, specific methods, etc. as well as an "select all" option? The reason I suggest this is that if someone just wants records of DORs for specific counties, there is no reason to send them all the data. It might make the data release simpler because it might not even need a vote.

I'm uncomfortable with the wording "Known Risks". I know what you are implying, but I'm not sure someone less familiar with our database and its history will be clear about what it means. Maybe something like:

Will the results or publication of your study disseminate this data to other parties?
If so, what type of data, and who would be the potential recipients of this data?

with the explanation....
There are some data in our database which are considered Sensitive by the contributors. Those contributors will want to know the potential extent of the data release that is being requested.

Chris

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by chrish » October 1st, 2012, 5:37 am

Fundad wrote:Hmm,

So .25 miles north of street 5 in dilly creek, isn't good enough for a map?

Fundad

I have a few records in the database from the 80s that were listed like this. When I went back to GPS them, I found the roads either no longer existed or had changed names. So I can't find out where they were from.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Fundad » October 1st, 2012, 5:48 am

I have a few records in the database from the 80s that were listed like this. When I went back to GPS them, I found the roads either no longer existed or had changed names. So I can't find out where they were from.
True, but that not the case all the time.. I have GPS markers on shopping malls, roads, and homes as well :lol: , because the herp was found there before the mall, road, or house was built.

I can't believe where not giving the requester the option.

Fundad

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Don Becker » October 1st, 2012, 7:57 am

Fundad wrote:Hmm,

So .25 miles north of street 5 in dilly creek, isn't good enough for a map?

Fundad
If that is filled into the locale field, then it would be included as having a specific location.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Fundad » October 1st, 2012, 8:55 am

If that is filled into the locale field, then it would be included as having a specific location.
I am confused (what else is new :lol: ).

So you did include records without GPS is the Locality field was field out in the last few requests?

Fundad

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Don Becker » October 1st, 2012, 9:16 am

Fundad wrote:So you did include records without GPS is the Locality field was field out in the last few requests?
Crud... no... error in admin form... will fix now, and add additional records.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Fundad » October 1st, 2012, 10:59 am

Crud... no... error in admin form... will fix now, and add additional records.
Have we told you, how much we appreciate your efforts? Ir doesn't go unnoticed.

Thanks Don

Fundad

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Brian Hubbs » October 1st, 2012, 2:17 pm

It could use a sub marginal discronificator allignment, but other than that I have no idea...

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Biker Dave » October 21st, 2012, 2:20 pm

I think we should have a check box for records with GPS, records without GPS, and both. We can then use that info internally to determine necessity of GPS coordinate entries vs non . This will allow us to make better decisions regarding GPS at a later date if need be.

Just throwing that out as an idea...
Dave

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Chris Smith » October 21st, 2012, 2:27 pm

Biker Dave wrote:I think we should have a check box for records with GPS, records without GPS, and both. We can then use that info internally to determine necessity of GPS coordinate entries vs non . This will allow us to make better decisions regarding GPS at a later date if need be.

Just throwing that out as an idea...
Dave

I like this idea. We could also do this with via a follow-up e-mail /survey to the requester. We should always try to follow up with the requester to try to get a sense for what we could do better.

-Chris

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by FunkyRes » October 21st, 2012, 10:13 pm

The GPS in smart phones is actually getting quite good, hell, probably better than the eTrex Legend I first started submitting records with.

I would not have a problem with requiring GPS for any new records.

I do think there should be a way for historic records to be entered without them.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Don Becker » October 22nd, 2012, 5:14 am

FunkyRes wrote:I would not have a problem with requiring GPS for any new records.

I do think there should be a way for historic records to be entered without them.
We already do require GPS. If you have notes that describe the location on old records, then you should be able find the location in Google maps to get the coordinates. If your notes aren't good enough for YOU to find a specific spot, then they will be worthless to anyone requesting the record.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by FunkyRes » October 22nd, 2012, 8:07 am

Oh, OK - I missed when that changed.

As far as geo-referencing older records, sometimes geo-referencing them is bad.

Example, UCB MVZ had some black salamanders geo-referenced in Redding. Looking at verbatim locale, it said "10 miles from Redding" but did not give direction. In my opinion that kind of record should not be geo-referenced (looks like they used city hall) because it implies accuracy that isn't there. Should be left with just the "10 miles from Redding" and no geo-reference.

I hope people entering old records don't do meaningless geo-references just because it is required to enter the record, at least not without something in the comments to make it obvious.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Fundad » October 22nd, 2012, 8:07 am

Based upon the years of conversations about these subjects, I always assumed there was a GPS and Voucher option.

Its an utter surprise to me that there wasn't those options already. :shock:
then they will be worthless to anyone requesting the record.
Unless they were requesting a DOR count, historical county/State species recorded numbers, method type, or such.. :lol:

Had to throw that out there.. Mostly because I know it will bring a strong response from you.. :twisted: Please ignore my
response.. (I truly don't want to debate it, I am in the GPS corner these days.).(I am down to under 270 gps less records, I hope to be done in a month or so) :thumb:

Fundad

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Don Becker » October 22nd, 2012, 11:45 am

FunkyRes wrote:Example, UCB MVZ had some black salamanders geo-referenced in Redding. Looking at verbatim locale, it said "10 miles from Redding" but did not give direction. In my opinion that kind of record should not be geo-referenced (looks like they used city hall) because it implies accuracy that isn't there. Should be left with just the "10 miles from Redding" and no geo-reference.
From the records I have looked at for Iowa, many collections seem to put in GPS coordinates that point to the middle of the city that was referenced. Also, is that from the center of Redding, or 10 miles from the outskirts of town? That record by itself may be valuable in establishing that black salamanders exist within a 10 mile radius of Redding, but once there is any record with a more specific location in that area, then that record becomes worthless. What if that record is 10 miles east of Redding, but there is a record with GPS coordinates that was a around 10 miles North of Redding? Would people start assuming that the first record was just at the same location of the one to the North?
Based upon the years of conversations about these subjects, I always assumed there was a GPS and Voucher option.

Its an utter surprise to me that there wasn't those options already.
Huh?
Unless they were requesting a DOR count, historical county/State species recorded numbers, method type, or such..
See my above example. If they were trying to get counts, it would sure be nice to be able to tell if two records reference the same animal or not. Look at all the people who complain that we need to keep the counts as accurate as possible. They say that you should only fill in the Qty field with your vouchered animals. They say that two people shouldn't both enter the same record to avoid having our counts look higher than they really are. Being able to see specific locations would sure help someone figure out which records are duplicates and which ones aren't.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by spinifer » October 22nd, 2012, 5:45 pm

Based upon the years of conversations about these subjects, I always assumed there was a GPS and Voucher option.

Its an utter surprise to me that there wasn't those options already.
Fundad, if I understand the release process correctly then anything the requester wants is a option....Don doesnt offer them specific choices, he give them what they ask for. If they request GPS only, he gives them GPS only, if they ask for Voucher only, he gives them voucher only. If nothing specific is ask for, then they get all the records.

Having all these options is not necessary, leave specifics up to the requester, otherwise give them everything.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Fundad » October 23rd, 2012, 5:10 am

Quote:
Based upon the years of conversations about these subjects, I always assumed there was a GPS and Voucher option.

Its an utter surprise to me that there wasn't those options already.


Huh?
I always thought there was a check box defining what records the requester wanted. We have had a ton of debates that have included what the requester's where choosing, and no one said otherwise.

Nate Wrote:
Having all these options is not necessary, leave specifics up to the requester, otherwise give them everything.
We haven't been giving them everything.. If we are going to do that we should indicate which records dont have either the GPS or the vouchers... (In other words they should know that we haven't actually seen a voucher or that there isn't one for that persons record) You can't have a voucherless record written up, for example.

Fundad

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by spinifer » October 23rd, 2012, 8:10 am

Fundad wrote:We haven't been giving them everything..
How so? Don will have to confirm. But I am pretty sure we have given what was requested. If someone requested records from LA County, Don sent them ALL the records from LA County that were released, including GPS, No GPS, Voucher, No Voucher. Only if the requester specified a specific type of record (ie., I only want Vouchered) should they have been pared down. Otherwise what is the point of having GPS/Voucher-less records if they are not going to be sent?
Fundad wrote:If we are going to do that we should indicate which records dont have either the GPS or the vouchers... (In other words they should know that we haven't actually seen a voucher or that there isn't one for that persons record) You can't have a voucherless record written up, for example.
We do and they will. When they open the spreadsheet they will see that GPS or voucher is not provided. Whoever is writing up the record should (would) first inspect it and would see whether or not it includes a voucher. Taking additional steps is redundant.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Don Becker » October 23rd, 2012, 8:38 am

Yes, I add records based on what they tell me. If they are looking for specific locations, they get only records with specific locations. If they say they want all records from an area, they get all records. When I send them the file, I instruct them to let me know if they need it in any additional formats, or anything more in it.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Fundad » October 23rd, 2012, 9:57 am

How so? Don will have to confirm. But I am pretty sure we have given what was requested. If someone requested records from LA County, Don sent them ALL the records from LA County that were released, including GPS, No GPS, Voucher, No Voucher.
See Don's post below for your answer..
Otherwise what is the point of having GPS/Voucher-less records if they are not going to be sent?
It should be optional so they know what they are requesting and getting.. IMO.. People need to work on getting their GPS added too..

We will have to add naherp owned data as well at some point soon as well, I imagine.
We do and they will. When they open the spreadsheet they will see that GPS or voucher is not provided.
GPS yes, but voucher? How will they know unless they look at the record (which is a monster task if requesting 100 or more records)

Fundad

Other then that, I don't really care.. I trust that Don will communicate these things to the requester to make sure they get the most bang for the buck with our records.

100 percent of my records will always have vouchers, and within a month or so all of my records will have GPS..

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Biker Dave » October 23rd, 2012, 5:05 pm

I know the records with vouchers have a little camera icon next to them when I look at mine in the db. I dont know if it transfers over to the data requests or not.

Dave

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by spinifer » October 24th, 2012, 4:30 am

Fundad wrote:GPS yes, but voucher? How will they know unless they look at the record (which is a monster task if requesting 100 or more records)
Thats the point of requesting the data, so you can look at it. You HAVE TO look at the record. You CAN NOT assume that the data is correct, it must be double checked. It is a monster task, but any person who is serious about their research will do so.
Fundad wrote:It should be optional so they know what they are requesting and getting..
I dont understand, how you dont understand, that GPS and Voucher-less being excluded from the request is already an option. All they have to do is ask for it.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Fundad » October 24th, 2012, 5:17 am

Thats the point of requesting the data, so you can look at it. You HAVE TO look at the record. You CAN NOT assume that the data is correct, it must be double checked. It is a monster task, but any person who is serious about their research will do so.
Is the voucher in the spreadsheet they are given? I dont "think" it is. Correct me if I am wrong. If the person that requested the data can "see"(without having to go naherp.com to look at the voucher) that the record doesn't have a voucher, then I am good. (see above :lol:)
I dont understand, how you dont understand, that GPS and Voucher-less being excluded from the request is already an option. All they have to do is ask for it.
:lol: Sorry you don't understand how I dont understand.. :lol: Maybe you have seen the data that has been released in a request?

Currently someone requesting data is just requesting the data. There is no check box options. And Don is giving out what he thinks they need or want.. I have yet to read a requesters request indicate "please include voucherless records" or the like?

Fundad

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Don Becker » October 24th, 2012, 6:32 am

http://www.naherp.com/user/view-data-re ... hp?dr_id=1
On our very first request, they specifically asked for vouchered localities only.

http://www.naherp.com/user/view-data-re ... hp?dr_id=2
On our second, they asked for both vouchered and unvouchered data.

http://www.naherp.com/user/view-data-re ... p?dr_id=10
This one only wanted vouchered data, and only ones with GPS

http://www.naherp.com/user/view-data-re ... p?dr_id=15
Vouchered only

http://www.naherp.com/user/view-data-re ... p?dr_id=16
Vouchered only

http://www.naherp.com/user/view-data-re ... p?dr_id=26
On that request, they specifically said they wanted ALL records, and that they would judge the merit of each one.


In all other cases, if they didn't specify, they got all records for the area they requested. The CSV file that I send by default, includes a field that lists URLs to all vouchers associated with the record. If that field is empty, the record isn't vouchered. They can easily tell if a record is vouchered or not by checking that column.

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by Fundad » October 24th, 2012, 10:09 am

Thanks for the clarification Don..
:thumb:

Fundad

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Re: Give me your input on Data Request form

Post by spinifer » October 24th, 2012, 2:56 pm

Yes, thank you Don. :beer:

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