AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

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jonathan
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by jonathan »

I'm guessing most of us never read all the way through the bylaws before agreeing to them. Heck, we agreed to many things in the bylaws that we then proceeded to ignore and are only now realizing need to be fixed.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by hellihooks »

Way back on the first several pages of this thread, I THOUGHT the main problem was with
Engaging in any activity considered by the International Board to be detrimental to the interests or reputation of NAFHA, its chapters and/or members.
in that it implied possible abuses of free speech. We uped the 'ante' (so to speak) by adding 'law-breaking' requirments, which protected free speech rights, and made any proposed action more difficult to enact, by requiring any act to be BOTH illegal AND detrimental.

I consider what we came up with to be our 'protection clause' only, for offenses more egregious than the listed causes. Anything less than the listed causes has never been, nor never will be considered 'actionable'.

AS I UNDERSTAND it... the main gist of the 'no policing' arguement is... We must remove ALL ability to police ourselves, lest we sometime in the future become the 'gestapo'. I'm NOT trying to be confrontational or inflammitory here... thats just the 'plainest' way I can think to say it.
Someone please explain to me how this can not be considered applying the PP to our organization.

I gotta go work on my car, so I can take my nor cal trip next week. cyaaaaaaaaaa jim
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

Are you saying that we are OK with what we have here?
I'm OK with it.

ARTICLE XII: RESIGNATION AND REMOVAL OF OFFICERS, INTERNATIONAL BOARD MEMBERS AND MEMBERS

A. Notice of resignation by an officer shall be posted on the NAFHA forums or provided in writing and delivered to the President of the applicable chapter.

B. Notice of resignation of an International Board member shall be posted on the NAFHA forums or provided in writing and delivered to the International Coordinator.

C. A chapter officer may be removed from office for failure to perform the duties of the office or for any one of the causes listed under F by a vote pursuant to Article VIIA.

D. An International Board member may be removed from office for failure to perform the duties of the office or for any one of the causes listed under F by a vote pursuant to Article VIIA.

E. Termination of membership may be done voluntarily by a member at any time by providing written notice delivered to the President of the applicable chapter.

F. Any NAFHA membership may be suspended or terminated for the member's refusal to comply with the NAFHA bylaws or reasons listed below by a vote pursuant to Article VIIA. The term of suspension shall be determined by the International Board of Directors.

1. Intentional cruelty to reptiles, amphibians or other animals.

2. Any egregious action that infringes upon or compromises the quality or integrity of the Database or NAFHA purpose.

3. Deliberate and flagrant damage of habitat while searching for herpetofauna.

4. Falsely claiming to be a spokesperson or officer of NAFHA when not authorized, or publicly attributing damaging opinions to NAFHA on matters where no opinion has been taken.

5. Knowingly disturbing known research sites and animals.

6. Engaging in the collection of live animals for commercial or personal purposes and without proper permits while participating in NAFHA sanctioned events.

7. Engaging in any other activity that is illegal or in violation of a state or federal regulation and considered by the International Board to be detrimental to the interests or reputation of NAFHA, its chapters and/or members.

G. Reinstatement:
Members involuntarily terminated may apply to the chapter board or International Board for reinstatement, no sooner than one year after termination. Any such application may be accepted or rejected with or without cause through a vote pursuant to Article VIIA by the chapter board or International Board of Directors.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by spinifer »

If I had to choose between what is posted above and what is currently in the bylaws, I would chose the above, because I think it is an improvement.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by kyle loucks »

spinifer wrote:If I had to choose between what is posted above and what is currently in the bylaws, I would chose the above, because I think it is an improvement.
Agreed
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

I'm probably an idiot for asking this, but should we add a section to simply explain the process of suspending or terminating a membership?

I was thinking about adding something like this:
G. A vote for suspension or termination of a member shall be preceded by an open discussion involving all interested NAFHA Chapter Members conducted on the NAFHA Members Only Forum for a minimum of 14 days and a maximum of 21 days.

We would then move Reinstatement to H.

If this is going to open another 12 pages of decisionless argument, then I will withdraw the suggestion.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by spinifer »

I dont think we should get into the process. Leave the process to be decided by the IB board under the bylaw clause the IB "shall manage the affairs of the NAFHA"

With that wording a member might take it upon themsevles to start the process on the MO Board.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by hellihooks »

Well, my 1/2 hr repair just turned into a 4-5 hr repair, so this is probably my last post till tonight?

I think the above version of bylaws is fine. I'll leave Steve's last suggestion to you guys... I have every confidence that you'll get it right... :thumb:

Steve, awhile back you asked me for my opinions concerning "chapter removal' which we agreed to put in the Chapters Article. That still needs to be addressed, and I stated my posistion on that already, and haven't since changed my stance. l8r.. jim
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by jonathan »

I think this is an improvement over the current bylaws.

I think we should leave it open for a while so other busy people can get a chance to comment....no harm in working on other sections while we wait.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

I'll agree to that.
Forget my suggestion to add another section.

Do you guys want to look at Data and Data Release today? I personally have nothing to add on that subject, but I will "moderate" or what ever I can do to help any of you who want to tackle it. Nate has made at least a couple of suggestions to make the languare easier to understand.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by Taylor Henry »

I've seen good points on both sides of the discussion along the way. I was attempting to come to a compromise, but I really think that the members that are absent at the moment should be here and have a chance to speak about what has been discussed in their absence before anything is decided on.

Sorry to take a step back for a second, but I wanted to comment on a few things in particular
jonathan wrote:there's no way that we can honestly assure data-requesting agencies that the data was obtained legally.
Thank you for bringing this up.



Jim the reason I placed Any egregious action that infringes upon or compromises the quality or integrity of the Database or NAFHA purpose. where it I put it, was because I saw it as addressing something that is directly affecting NAFHA and therefore can be policed. The two things that are being protected are the Database and the NAFHA purpose. While it is fairly open ended (maybe even a little more open ended than I would like), it would have to be proved that and egregious action had been committed against the Database and or NAFHA purpose.
hellihooks wrote:And yes, IMO, saying we'll enforce laws and regulations ONLY AT official Nafha events, and not have those standards as requirments for joing NAFHA, will 'gut' the reputation we're trying to build.
Look at what jonathan said:
jonathan wrote:It says, very specifically, that NAFHA "does not support the following actions" and will police all such actions at NAFHA events, which does not sound at all to me like the permission to "rape and pillage" that you were claiming it was.
We are clearly stating that we do not agree WHATSOEVER with the listed things, even so much that we might remove someone when they are committed in a place we have and should have the right to do so, a NAFHA event. I still think that that shows plenty of respectability.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by chad ks »

spinifer wrote:
OK... don't break the rules while at official events... the rest of the time... do what you want... rape, pillage, stomp baby snakes... we won't say a word, or even if we do, feel free to ignore us... it's not like we can DO anything about it...
Ki-Yi-Yippy-YI-AAAAA Mo Fo's... Wild West Days are Here AGinnn...

Jim, you are still reading too much into it. No where does it state when or how a member is supposed to act, the original bylaws dont either. Members are free to act however they please. However, they are not free from potential reprocusions for their actions. I dont see the need to place potential 'enforcement' on every herp releated aspect of a persons life. If they are truely a bad person, but do nothing to give NAFHA a bad name, why should NAFHA take action, the community will respond to such people to insist they change thier habits or force them to leave through social interactions, etc.
:thumb:

Agreed.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by Biker Dave »

Greetings All

Sorry to arrive late to this topic .....
I admit I did not read through the 13 pages of discussion on this topic yet. But just looking at the last page I have one concern regarding the rewrite of this section...
. Falsely claiming to be a spokesperson or officer of NAFHA when not authorized, or publicly attributing damaging opinions to NAFHA on matters where no opinion has been taken.
My question is this.... who is "authorized" under the bylaws to speak for NAFHA?
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by jonathan »

Biker Dave wrote:Greetings All

Sorry to arrive late to this topic .....
I admit I did not read through the 13 pages of discussion on this topic yet. But just looking at the last page I have one concern regarding the rewrite of this section...
. Falsely claiming to be a spokesperson or officer of NAFHA when not authorized, or publicly attributing damaging opinions to NAFHA on matters where no opinion has been taken.
My question is this.... who is "authorized" under the bylaws to speak for NAFHA?

A possibly related example I remember once - members aren't supposed just set up NAFHA info booths at reptile conventions whenever they feel like it - they should talk to the education officer about it first. If the education officer can't do it but gives permission for them to do it, then they would be "authorized" to speak for NAFHA.

Perhaps another example would be claiming to represent NAFHA in order to get permission to do a herp survey on someone's land, without telling/asking the conservation officer about it first.

Basically, I see it as claiming to fulfill the official duties of one of the officers, without getting permission from that officer to do it first.


(I mentioned specific officers, but maybe these are issues that could be handled by other officers, or would need to be handled by the chapter leadership in general?)
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by hellihooks »

chad ks wrote:
spinifer wrote:
OK... don't break the rules while at official events... the rest of the time... do what you want... rape, pillage, stomp baby snakes... we won't say a word, or even if we do, feel free to ignore us... it's not like we can DO anything about it...
Ki-Yi-Yippy-YI-AAAAA Mo Fo's... Wild West Days are Here AGinnn...

Jim, you are still reading too much into it. No where does it state when or how a member is supposed to act, the original bylaws dont either. Members are free to act however they please. However, they are not free from potential reprocusions for their actions. I dont see the need to place potential 'enforcement' on every herp releated aspect of a persons life. If they are truely a bad person, but do nothing to give NAFHA a bad name, why should NAFHA take action, the community will respond to such people to insist they change thier habits or force them to leave through social interactions, etc.
:thumb:

Agreed.
" However, they are not free from potential reprocusions for their actions."... yes actually, they would be, for any herping they do, except for while at nafha events.

But, I'm tired of arguing, and tired of not being able to make you guys understand where I'm coming from. A private conversation with Jonathan, however, did help me marshall my thoughts, and clarify my concerns... so here goes.

When I joined Nafha, there were alot of things I did, and didn't do, in regard to herping. Tear up logs...didn't know you couldn't... overcollect?... thought that was what herping was... take home everything you found.... license... why bother? I never did black market crap, like exotic hots, or sold herps, or other really serious stuff... just the typical 'not knowing any better' local infractions.

When I joined Nafha, I DID read the causes for termination, and resolved to never do any of those things, for fear of getting booted. Now, as an officer for 3 yrs, I do my best to keep to the letter of EVERY law... no touching herps you shouldn't touch, break no flake, ect... not to protect myself, but to protect the reputation of the Nafha, and to set a good example for new herpers.

I never got hammered or officially investigated/rebuked for my 'bad habits'... I was allowed to grow into a better herper, by way of sage advice and good examples. That's what we do here... not police every little infraction or bad habit. Far as I know, we've never revoked a membership through the bylaws, back when it would have been easier to do... why the hell do people think we're going to start doing it now?

I joined Nafha because I wanted to become a better, more knowledgable herper AND Nafha seemed like an organization that was SERIOUS about wanting law-abiding respectable herpers only... in a word, they had standards and were willing to enforce them. I RESPECTED that.

So... what are our 'entrance standards' now? The 'causes for termination'?... how can they be, if only enforced at official events? It kinda says we're only interested in what happens at these few amd far apart events, and don''t care that much about how our members herp outside of those events. I find it alot harder to respect an organization that spells that out in their bylaws, and may not have even joined nafha, if I read that. Or.. if I did join, wouldn't be nearly as concerned with 'stepping up my game'... cause if my group dosn't care enough to even SAY they COULD enforce their standards... why should I bother to try and improve.

And finally, (before I have to go back to fixing the car)... enforce the rules at events? Really? There's typically a bunch of officers at these events, who always go over the rules and enforce them... it's like saying lets police the 'policeman's ball'.... :roll: :D jim
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by spinifer »

" However, they are not free from potential reprocusions for their actions."... yes actually, they would be, for any herping they do, except for while at nafha events.
From NAFHA officials, but not from their peers, and not from the law.
But, I'm tired of arguing, and tired of not being able to make you guys understand where I'm coming from. A private conversation with Jonathan, however, did help me marshall my thoughts, and clarify my concerns... so here goes.
I do understand where you are coming from, but do you understand where the other guys are coming from? I was trying help find a compromise that was somewhere in the middle of both sides.
When I joined Nafha, there were alot of things I did, and didn't do, in regard to herping. Tear up logs...didn't know you couldn't... overcollect?... thought that was what herping was... take home everything you found.... license... why bother? I never did black market crap, like exotic hots, or sold herps, or other really serious stuff... just the typical 'not knowing any better' local infractions.

When I joined Nafha, I DID read the causes for termination, and resolved to never do any of those things, for fear of getting booted. Now, as an officer for 3 yrs, I do my best to keep to the letter of EVERY law... no touching herps you shouldn't touch, break no flake, ect... not to protect myself, but to protect the reputation of the Nafha, and to set a good example for new herpers.
So hypothetically, lets say you didnt read the bylaws, which way would you have perferred to find out what you were doing was wrong: your name being plastered on the main forum with accusations of wrong doing (which you didnt realize was wrong) and members voting you out, suspending you for a year? Or taking a little heat here and there and watching others take some heat for the same things you do, and eventually learning that most people on here dont do these kinds of things and that is not what NAFHA is about?
I never got hammered or officially investigated/rebuked for my 'bad habits'... I was allowed to grow into a better herper, by way of sage advice and good examples. That's what we do here... not police every little infraction or bad habit. Far as I know, we've never revoked a membership through the bylaws, back when it would have been easier to do... why the hell do people think we're going to start doing it now?
Exactly, so why write it into the bylaws to give the impression that thats what we do?
I joined Nafha because I wanted to become a better, more knowledgable herper AND Nafha seemed like an organization that was SERIOUS about wanting law-abiding respectable herpers only... in a word, they had standards and were willing to enforce them. I RESPECTED that.

So... what are our 'entrance standards' now? The 'causes for termination'?... how can they be, if only enforced at official events? It kinda says we're only interested in what happens at these few amd far apart events, and don''t care that much about how our members herp outside of those events. I find it alot harder to respect an organization that spells that out in their bylaws, and may not have even joined nafha, if I read that. Or.. if I did join, wouldn't be nearly as concerned with 'stepping up my game'... cause if my group dosn't care enough to even SAY they COULD enforce their standards... why should I bother to try and improve.
I think Taylors version still outlines the standards of the organization. No reason why that still wont draw members like it drew you. We are still just as serious about those standards. But like you said, it has never come to a vote to terminate someone, and we hope it never will, so why provide the oportunity for it to happen. Lets keep doing things the way we do them "by way of sage advice and good examples."
And finally, (before I have to go back to fixing the car)... enforce the rules at events? Really? There's typically a bunch of officers at these events, who always go over the rules and enforce them... it's like saying lets police the 'policeman's ball'.... jim
Its very easy for someone to turn an event into a collecting trip, if that happens that should be ground for termination because you are setting an example to other members who witness your actions. This is also why I added "while representing NAFHA" and that would apply to anytime you identify yourself as a member to the public. At that point, what you do then is not only a reflection of yourself but also a relection of the organization.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by hellihooks »

We're saying the same things... No one has been kicked out... we learn from our peers/forums,

"Exactly, so why write it into the bylaws to give the impression that thats what we do"

It's been in the bylaws all this time! Never used! If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You guys wanna take away the ability To Use It, should we ever NEED to. On the possibility of 'future abuses. When someone can explain how thats NOT the PP... :shock:
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

Why are we talking about another version? A while ago, we all agreed that we were OK with what we have posted above.

If it comes to a tug-o-war, I'm with Jim and sticking to the last version I posted. It's only slightly different than what we started with originally.

I hate to be an advocate of fixing the barn door after the horse is out, but in this case maybe that's exactly what we need to do. If the situation ever arises where the majority of our members feels like someone needs to be expelled, we will get to see just how things can go. It may be a difficult experience when it does happen, but surely we will all learn something from it. I think we need to say, "so far so good" and expect the same for the future.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by kyle loucks »

Jim, thanks for the comments. NAFHA has made me a better herper no doubt and I am proud the way our Northeast guys have handled themselves when at events. I am also confident that they handle themselves the same way when not at NAFHA events.
I am ok with the last revision...
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by Brian Hubbs »

I have a silly question (again): How can data be obtained and placed in the database "illegally"? The database is a repository for photos, not specimens. When has it ever been illegal to take a photo? Please excuse me if I'm missing something here...it's been a long couple days. Oh, and Mr. Dictator Sir :lol: , is your phone off? I tried to call you 6 times ...
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by jonathan »

Brian Hubbs wrote:I have a silly question (again): How can data be obtained and placed in the database "illegally"? The database is a repository for photos, not specimens. When has it ever been illegal to take a photo? Please excuse me if I'm missing something here...it's been a long couple days. Oh, and Mr. Dictator Sir :lol: , is your phone off? I tried to call you 6 times ...
The animal could be captured illegally, handled illegally, searched for illegally. Thus, the photo would have been obtained in an illegal manner.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by Brian Hubbs »

It is not illegal to search for anything...and good luck proving an animal was collected or handled...

I think this is a pointless point. Nafha cannot be held responsible for a "picture" of a protected animal (which would have to be an endangered or threatened species to qualify for no handling without a permit). If were going to start trying to prove who did what in the acquisition of data we might be heading down a very slippery slope...

In my opinion, scumbags are not going to even enter data into the database...unless we make it a requirement to look at nafha forums...

They are not going to vote either, or even become members unless they think they can learn something about good collecting spots by going on the field trips. I think we need to worry more about where field trips are held, than how someone got a picture...

FHF is crawling with poachers...I don't know how many, but I know of at least 3 in particular. They do not enter data, they just read the posts and go collect...hence our message to not post what you find during the season, but we can't even get everyone on the same page about that...
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

Brian Hubbs wrote:Oh, and Mr. Dictator Sir :lol: , is your phone off? I tried to call you 6 times ...
What better reason could one have to turn one's phone off? :lol:

Yes - it was off all day yesterday. I didn't realize it until about 6:00 PM.
My friends usually leave a message when that happens!
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by brick911 »

Hubbs can't even text. I sent him like 12 messages when I was out in California before I decided to try another avenue. :lol:

It's time for an intervention. Sorry Brian. :thumb:
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Hubbs can text...he just chooses not to... :lol:
Don't send me texts...they will be ignored. :D
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by FunkyRes »

Brian Hubbs wrote:It is not illegal to search for anything...and good luck proving an animal was collected or handled...
*snip*
I would like to stress the concept of innocent until proven guilty.
If a member is found to be in violation of the law (IE poaching) by a legal court then perhaps booting the person may be warranted. I say may be warranted, because there are cases like Ryan Hoyer with the Rubber Boas where I believe he did nothing wrong.

But from data entered into the database, I don't think even a picture of me holding a SF Garter and no mention on research would even warrant consideration. Maybe I was there with a researcher who personally wants to keep himself distant from NAFHA and does not want to be mentioned in the record.

If you suspect someone of violating law and have evidence, contact the authorities, let them investigate first. Then maybe look into booting the individual, if there is a conviction.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by jonathan »

FunkyRes wrote:I would like to stress the concept of innocent until proven guilty.
If a member is found to be in violation of the law (IE poaching) by a legal court then perhaps booting the person may be warranted. I say may be warranted, because there are cases like Ryan Hoyer with the Rubber Boas where I believe he did nothing wrong.
To be clear, they dropped the unjustified poaching charges against Ryan. To my knowledge the only thing he was ever convicted of was the ridiculous charge of failing to get a clean bill of health from a veterinarian before bringing the snakes into the state of Utah, a "livestock" law that was never meant to be applied to snakes and which could probably be brought against every pet store and pet owner in Utah if the state actually believed it should be interpreted that way.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by hellihooks »

The 'illegally collected' data point has nothing to do with nafha taking any type of action against it's members. It's about how outside agencies feel about they data they accept, and assurances they may need that the data was in fact, collected legally.

This is something that can be looked into, and probably should be, to help us make more informed decisions. As JE's avatar says..."Yeah.... next time try doing a little research.." :lol: :lol: :lol: jim
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by Fundad »

If you suspect someone of violating law and have evidence, contact the authorities, let them investigate first. Then maybe look into booting the individual, if there is a conviction.
I agree, The Hoyer incident is a perfect example....

Have it your way guys... :roll:


I think I am done here, I am not going to go against the grain, at this point in the game. We have had issues already, and the bylaws have been "IGNORED" anyway..

You people have fun with the NAFHA social club, doing all that policing, Judging, and deciding. :shock: :shock:


At this point I think, I ll stay out of NAFHA related stuff, unless it's directly related to data, it's integrity and all aspects related to the database..

Fundad
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by jonathan »

Fundad wrote:
If you suspect someone of violating law and have evidence, contact the authorities, let them investigate first. Then maybe look into booting the individual, if there is a conviction.
I agree, The Hoyer incident is a perfect example....

Have it your way guys... :roll:

Brian, if you state that the Hoyer incident is a perfect example, then you also have to admit that virtually everyone in NAFHA thinks that he is innocent and there's no chance that there'd ever even be a discussion to expel him, much less a vote. That wouldn't happen in any serious field herping community this year, ten years from now, or 50 years from now.

The by-laws were poorly known by the greater NAFHA community for the first few years, and since they were written before the organization existed they didn't take into account everything that might happen.

You can't deny that this set of bylaws is being much more carefully considered, and will be much better understood by the members. Why don't you wait until the organization actually goes in a direction you disagree with before you quit anything? I've seen you at almost every survey and meeting that I've been to, and it would suck to lose you from that. Right now, everyone seems to expect the exact same things out of NAFHA's future - our biggest disagreements relate to what will happen in fringe scenarios that none of us believe are likely anyway.
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Fundad
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by Fundad »

I haven't quit Jonathan, just not going to partake in this..

I stand against it, and think it's a poison to us, not going to spend the next 2 weeks defending my position (as I am in the minority here), and making enemies along the way.

This other stuff NAFHA is trying to do, outside of the database, can at times conflict with the goals we have for the database, IMO. And for me thats the bottom line..

I don't want to be apart of the policing, the not policing, deciding when we should police, how do we police, etc etc..
I'll leave that to those of you who are trained, educated, and qualified to do so.


Fundad
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FunkyRes
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by FunkyRes »

hellihooks wrote:The 'illegally collected' data point has nothing to do with nafha taking any type of action against it's members. It's about how outside agencies feel about they data they accept, and assurances they may need that the data was in fact, collected legally.
I'm going to be completely honest and admit that much of my data was not.

Sierra Gartersnake

Inside a "protected area" (state park, regional park, national park, etc.)

It would have been legal for me to catch trout in that pool and take them home and cook them, but catching that Sierra Garter to get a nice photograph of its belly and labials (necessary for ID as there are known Oregon Garters a stream or two to the west) and releasing it was a violation of law.

Diablo Gartersnake

Inside a "protected area" (state park, regional park, national park, etc.)

I would not have been able to obtain a photo voucher if I had not handled it.

American Bullfrog

Inside a "protected area" (state park, regional park, national park, etc.)

Again, it would have been legal for me to catch fish on a baited hook, but handling an invasive bullfrog is technically illegal.

None of those animals were collected. I would have loved to collect to Bullfrog to feed to my legally obtained valley garter, but I didn't because collection of amphibians is forbidden there. I only handle in those places when absolutely necessary AND it is not a protected species (SSC, Federally threatened/endangered) in decline.

It's technically illegal. If the bylaws want to reject my data because some of it was collected in a manner that technically violated law, I'm afraid the amount of data I can submit will be radically reduced. There are several regional parks and state parks and national parks where I love to herp. Many of them have curfews, so other than diurnal basking species, flipping is the way to find them - and even without handling, flipping may technically violate laws.

I think it is sufficient for the bylaws to state that NAFHA does not endorse illegal activity. I don't think the NAFHA should even attempt to enforce laws by investigating and booting members that may have collected data in a manner contrary to what federal, state, or local laws technically allow. I do think laws need to be strictly followed at any NAFHA event, but I really don't think it is the place of NAFHA to enforce laws with respect to data collected outside of NAFHA events.

EDITED: Removed specific references
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by hellihooks »

We never have 'policed our members' OR strictly enforced the 'letter of the law'... And I"LL BE the FIRST to fight AGAINST that.... should it ever be tried I fought for Free Speech, I fought for strong Chapter formation, and most recently fought for a Chapter's right for self-determination... AND I have fought against what I consider a probably 'Loss of Creditability'.

We currenty have a degree of creditability, with requesting agencies, in that our bylaws Not Only Say, we don't condone illegal activity, but also reserve the right to address gross violations. Take away that ability and we lose creditability with the agencies who might want our data. If we don't appear serious about providing lawfully obtained data, they may have reservations about the data. So now... I'm fighting to protect the reputation of our Data!

Possible future abuses of power vs probable 'Loss of Creditability'
That's it in a nutshell. EVERYTHING I've argued for has been for the protection of, or strenghting of the NAFHA, and I sleep very well knowing I've done everything I can to (IMO) improve the Nafha.

I respect everyone's right to have their opinions, as well... and while I may not agree with their opinions, I appreciate and THANK them for fighting for what they believe to be best... :thumb:

I really do hate arguing... so I said all I going to say on this topic. Have a nice day...and get some entries. I'm gonna try to get to the library today to get some of mine uploaded... :thumb: jim
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

It appears that we have a majority in agreement that the latest version posted last on 1/29/11 is what we want to move forward with.

Here it is again. I will post on the list of CURRENT EDITS


ARTICLE XII: RESIGNATION AND REMOVAL OF OFFICERS, INTERNATIONAL BOARD MEMBERS AND MEMBERS

A. Notice of resignation by an officer shall be posted on the NAFHA forums or provided in writing and delivered to the President of the applicable chapter.

B. Notice of resignation of an International Board member shall be posted on the NAFHA forums or provided in writing and delivered to the International Coordinator.

C. A chapter officer may be removed from office for failure to perform the duties of the office or for any one of the causes listed under F by a vote pursuant to Article VIIA.

D. An International Board member may be removed from office for failure to perform the duties of the office or for any one of the causes listed under F by a vote pursuant to Article VIIA.

E. Termination of membership may be done voluntarily by a member at any time by providing written notice delivered to the President of the applicable chapter.

F. Any NAFHA membership may be suspended or terminated for the member's refusal to comply with the NAFHA bylaws or reasons listed below by a vote pursuant to Article VIIA. The term of suspension shall be determined by the International Board of Directors.

1. Intentional cruelty to reptiles, amphibians or other animals.

2. Any egregious action that infringes upon or compromises the quality or integrity of the Database or NAFHA purpose.

3. Deliberate and flagrant damage of habitat while searching for herpetofauna.

4. Falsely claiming to be a spokesperson or officer of NAFHA when not authorized, or publicly attributing damaging opinions to NAFHA on matters where no opinion has been taken.

5. Knowingly disturbing known research sites and animals.

6. Engaging in the collection of live animals for commercial or personal purposes and without proper permits while participating in NAFHA sanctioned events.

7. Engaging in any other activity that is illegal or in violation of a state or federal regulation and considered by the International Board to be detrimental to the interests or reputation of NAFHA, its chapters and/or members.

G. Reinstatement:
Members involuntarily terminated may apply to the chapter board or International Board for reinstatement, no sooner than one year after termination. Any such application may be accepted or rejected with or without cause through a vote pursuant to Article VIIA by the chapter board or International Board of Directors.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by FunkyRes »

I would get rid of #7.

What would violate #7 that would not already violate #1, #3, #5, or #6 ??

If anyone can answer that, then replace #7 with that activity.
If no one can answer that, then get rid of #7.
That's my thoughts.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

FunkyRes wrote:I would get rid of #7.

What would violate #7 that would not already violate #1, #3, #5, or #6 ??

If anyone can answer that, then replace #7 with that activity.
If no one can answer that, then get rid of #7.
That's my thoughts.
In all due respects, we spent days going through that exercise.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by FunkyRes »

Steve Bledsoe wrote:
FunkyRes wrote:I would get rid of #7.

What would violate #7 that would not already violate #1, #3, #5, or #6 ??

If anyone can answer that, then replace #7 with that activity.
If no one can answer that, then get rid of #7.
That's my thoughts.
In all due respects, we spent days going through that exercise.
OK, fair enough. When it comes to actual vote, I'll express it then.
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Re: AMENDMENTS TO BYLAWS - Resignations and Removal

Post by jonathan »

spinifer wrote:F. Termination of active members, active chapter members, or chapter members may be imposed by a vote pursuant to Article VIIA for any one of the following causes:

This language needs to be inserted back in....it looks like almost everyone who commented wanted it in and there wasn't much of a counterargument. We just lost track of it in other discussions.
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