New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

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Peter84Jenkins
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New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by Peter84Jenkins »

Hello all, I am new to this forum and so I will go ahead and introduce myself. My name is Daniel Duff; I am 26, and work as a lab tech at a water plant in North Georgia.

I have also started a website dedicated to Georgia's population of mountain dwelling Horridus. It is new and growing so please be patient.


Please feel free to comment or make suggestions. Thank you all for your time.

http://www.georgiatimberdens.org
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krisbell
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Re: New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by krisbell »

Love the idea for the site dude - keep it up.

However, just as an aside - maybe you should follow your own advice with the not touching thing, as a bunch of pics and stories of rattlesnakes biting you and your mates arent going to help improve the public perception of these animals.
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Peter84Jenkins
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Re: New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by Peter84Jenkins »

I am glad you enjoyed the website.
However it is a bit hard to gather vital physical data or do field work in general and remain completely hands off.
The advice was meant for novices, hikers, hunters, or people with little experience with venomous.
Thanks for the feedback.
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umop apisdn
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Re: New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by umop apisdn »

What vital physical data were you collecting that made it more important to put yourselves in harm's way? Is this a personal or professional study?

Also, it's just my personal opinion, but posting landscape photos of timber dens...isn't that a little counter-intuitive when attempting to conceal site identity?
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Peter84Jenkins
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Re: New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by Peter84Jenkins »

It is a professional project. I am working to gather information that will be used for conservation. Did you think I just decided to post a random site based on absolutely no life experience? Also, I have spent the past 5 (going on six) years searching for dens in the North Ga Mountains, practically living the entire summer with poison ivy in both mild and severe cases, so yeah it is also quite personal to me. I am actively gathering data on/from around a dozen dens in the area. Have you ever tried to accurately measure a snake without putting your hands on it in some form or another? I am very confident that there is absolutely nothing on my site that will lead people to these den sites. I did not think I would come here and be attacked by fellow herpers. Maybe this is my fault; perhaps the point of my site is unclear and needs better explanation? I did however; ask for constructive criticism I did not come here to be berated like a child. If you have serious concerns it seems there is a medium for private messaging here, also I do have an email available on the site.
ugh

Re: New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by ugh »

Peter I think what points and questions 'umop apisdn' brought up are completely legit for public discussion, since we’re talking about a website that can be viewed freely by the entire general public.

Consider that these GA TR’s are warranted no legal protection by the state they‘re found in. One of the first things I noticed was that your site does show you handling the snakes all over the place(with somewhat of a recreational/’nonscientific’ look but maybe I‘m assuming too much) right next to a section documenting you getting envenomated. I think it’s safe to say much of the viewing public(non-herpers) would be quick to ‘blame’ the snakes for such an occurrence,(undermining what I presume was your intent of being educational) when you and I know that’s a stance taken out of ignorance.

I wanted to ask- what your goal is with your site? More to the point-have you really weighed this against the potential negative impact on these populations that could result from the added attention since you have zero control over who browses your site? Obviously information is going to be changing hands with increased participation on your site, how much control do you have over that information ,and are you sure you want to create a whole network thru which such sensitive info will be passed?

I would also suggest considering a more hands-off approach especially if your study is at all concerned with the snakes’ natural behavior and lastly I can tell you plenty can be learned from a strictly hands-off approach with a camera in tow and the ability to roughly determine the age and sex of individuals, without touching them. Though not foolproof 100% of the time this technique can get you an awful lot of info with the benefit of not stressing the snakes to the point of really altering their habits/movements/etc.

The site looks great and clearly a lot of time was put into it-I don’t think anyone would doubt that.Just putting in my two cents.
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Peter84Jenkins
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Re: New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by Peter84Jenkins »

Ok, I will try my hardest not to come off rude here. I have answered a few questions in private, so hopefully those are squared away. I understand it is a public forum, but I felt the questions were more of a probe into my personal ethics and knowledge. It is a bit hard to gauge people via the typed word.
As far as the site, I have no intention of making it “interactive” it is simply a glorified blog if you will. So, all of its content is 100% in my control. Its purpose is to inform, educate and bring awareness to the Horridus populations in Ga and certain conservation groups working with them. (the mountain dwelling populations not the former Atricaudatus) I can name at least 50 researchers who have been photographed working with snakes in much the same manner as I. From Clifford Pope, Ditmars, to Joe Slowenski, Wolfgang Wuster and Greg fry….and so on.
Yes, I handle snakes both in the field and working with the small modest collection of Ga natives I keep. I enjoy interacting with the animals. If you watch my vids you will see there is very little manipulation of the snake, besides what is necessary for a good photo. If your are just going to make rough estimates as to the snakes physical characteristics from a distance, how then can that be of value to science? You can’t “roughly” determine the ph of a water sample by looking at it, or roughly study dinosaur bones by leaving them in the ground. Hooking and tailing is a legitimate and safe method to handle hots when done right. I do not free handle. I do not “alter” habitat. And I don’t walk around posing with snakes all day. I collect these photographs as memories. You are not seeing how many animals I am NOT touching. There are a just as many, if not more pictures on the site of snakes in situ.
The site is still in its infancy. I plan on adding more education content, stories, and photos. All of which will not hint the slightest as to the location of these dens. Hope I covered it all. I am at work so I may have missed some points. And I hope I conveyed my thoughts politely.
ugh

Re: New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by ugh »

Ok so you want to handle the snakes for the sake of taking pictures more to your liking,or whatever-fine.....

With a little practice,the following age groups can be discerned in a hands-off manner:neonate/yoy,yearling,2 year old,3-5 year old,subadult,adult(adults can be further broken down as long as at least a couple rattles are intact,showing whether or not any taper is present among the segments)......

Also the species is at least somewhat sexually dimpormphic.Relative tail length, and other more subtle traits of bodily form coupled with an understanding of the species' habits throughout the season,can all give you a pretty clear picture of what sex the snake is and what it's doing ,all without so much as touching it,allowing for natural observation of a snake not in flight or reacting defensively to your 'interacting' with it.

Not saying 'this is how you should do it',just describing what I have arrived at over time as how I like to study/observe them.Also for what it's worth the most experienced biologists I know working with this and other crotalid species also tend strongly towards this hands-off approach.
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Peter84Jenkins
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Re: New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by Peter84Jenkins »

Ok, you are looking way too hard at the few pictures of me handling the snakes. Like I stated before I am not tossing around every snake I find. If I find 15 at one den site, then I may put my hands on ten percent and the rest are observed in situ, just as said before. I understand the benefit of hands off when necessary, but sometimes you must interact with the animals for more detailed data. If you have ever been on a timber den then you know it is next to impossible to move around unnoticed by the snakes, so the fight or flight reaction is always present as long as you are there. How do you weigh a snake by sight? I am sorry, but I do not know any biologist that are completely and 100% hands off, it is not possible for sake of sound science. I understand and appreciate your concerns.
Bitis_Gabonica
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Re: New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by Bitis_Gabonica »

Being that I am a Ga Horridus hunter as well, I doubt that any of the photos on Daniel's site will lead to locations. His landscape album simplygives examples of talus slopes, vegetation, ect. However you guys are correct, Horridus den info is very delicate and shouldn't be in the wrong hands. As far as him handling the snakes, you can sit and feast only your eyes on these beauties. However, he speaks of a research project (a much needed one as a matter of fact) where he gathers measurement data, scale counts, ect, ect. About the only safe method I can think of doing this is tubing. Are you really going to try and tube a big female Horridus on a steep talus slope? Seems like it would lead to further complications to me. Which leads me to assume that he uses a method that yes, may be dangerous, however works for him. This leads me to the discussion of his photos of handling them. It is his reward of the effort and time it takes to find them. As far as his stories, they are great (and a bit horrifying) to read, as they contain knowledge of the dangers that exist. Keep up the great work, Daniel. Cheers, Neil.
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SnakeStick
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Re: New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by SnakeStick »

I thought the picture of the bear den with a ripped up sleeping in it was pretty cool.
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Knightkrawler5
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Re: New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by Knightkrawler5 »

Love the site man...It got me pumped for my trip to north GA in April. My uncle has some awesome land that I am hoping to find some big Timbers on.
lashinala2
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Re: New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by lashinala2 »

Before this site had a crash last year, I had posted a C. horridus in a tree from the Huntsville, Al. area (nice HUGE female in a locust tree). I had never seen a soul herping near where the picture was taken. Within a month, there were 3 people seen herping the area (1/2 of it's private, 1/2 city owned). I knew this site hadn't released any info, but figured out someone had traced a separate photo I took to a close location and connected the dots. Lesson learned. Now, I'm a bit of a jerk about location and pics, even if they are outstanding....it's just not worth the risk to a dwindling species. When I showed a collection of my photos to an arborist, she guessed my location fairly close by the types of trees in the background from around 40 pics. That was a humbling experience.
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Todd McKinney
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Re: New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by Todd McKinney »

I enjoyed the site. :D
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MassHorridus
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Re: New website for Georgia Crotalus Horridus/introduction

Post by MassHorridus »

Great site!
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