Opt-out of NAFHA?

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Shane_TX
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Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Shane_TX »

Since the database seems to be very NAFHA-centric these days, I wonder if there's a way for non-union folks to enter data. I don't dislike the idea of NAFHA, but it's really not me. I'd rather submit records to a database that is fairly stable; not to a database that is at the whim of the 18 people who actually read and regularly vote on this forum.

Shane

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Biker Dave
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Biker Dave »

Shane

I'm not sure why you would think that the database is not stable....its pretty much independent of the forum.

Would it really matter if there 500 people voting vs the 18 you state? Either way, you have a group of concerned people that care about the database. Without counting all the names I would guesstimate at least 200+ people contributing to the database. So by their participation they are, in a way, approving of the so called union of 18 voting members you speak of.

The other option I would suggest, if you really wish to separate yourself from the DB is giving your data to your local university or zoo.

Thats my 2 cents.

I hope you change your mind though and join up with us.

Dave

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jonathan
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by jonathan »

I'm a little confused by the question, but there's definitely potential for good changes if you see an issue. I have a couple questions:

What would it mean for the NAFHA database to not be "NAFHA-centric"?

In what specific ways do you see the database being at the whim of 18 people?

Is there an essential decision regarding the database that you believe would have turned out differently if 100 contributors had voted instead of 18?



I will say that when some members have complained about the lack of voters (which is usually 40 to 50, not 18), several members have replied that they follow the discussions, but don't vote sometimes because they don't have an opinion or want to defer to the opinions of others.

Also, in my recollection the most important decisions have all been made via landslide votes, so I'm not sure how having more voters would have significantly changed the outcome.

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spinifer
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by spinifer »

ShaneTX wrote: I'd rather submit records to a database that is fairly stable;
Which DB would that be?

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brick911
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by brick911 »

:?: :?: :?:

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Fundad
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Fundad »

Bummer..

If you know a place where your data isn't shared publicly with out the users permission, please do share where I can do that. Also Most the important votes get around 60 votes (someone correct me if I am wrong). If you could let me know of an University or institute that has more than 10 people running it than please let me know..

It has taking me 4 months just to enter a Ringneck into a university.


Fundad

millside
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by millside »

as far as voting, every member of NAFHA has the right to vote, noone is left out.
It is "their" choice not to vote, it is not NAFHA's fault that only a percentage of members vote.
Kind of like our own government, so many complainers, yet only a small percentage of people vote.
I would also love to hear some more substance to your complaint of the database. The board has always seemed to listen and discuss if there are issues that need change in the system.

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KingCam
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by KingCam »

Shane_TX wrote:the database seems to be very NAFHA-centric
:lol: You don't say? The NAFHA database has become NAFHA-centric ladies and gentlemen!

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brick911
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by brick911 »

That's what confused me.

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Fundad
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Fundad »

Keep in mind Shane "Often" plays devils advocate in matters like this..

Fundad

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Steve Bledsoe
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

Like Jonathan and "brick", I too am confused about what the question or complaint is. Understanding, as Brian points out, that Shane seems to enjoy stirring the pot as devil's advocate, I have trouble sometimes figuring out whether he's serious or not. If he's just playing around here, then he's done a good job of getting some attention.

The people who are active in making the decisions concerning the database are the only people who care enough to participate in the process. It would be nice if more members took an interest, but it is what it is. I have learned over the years that in any volunteer organization, a very small percentage of the members do all of the work. It's just human nature I guess.

The other comment about the database being NAFHA-centric should come as no surprise since the HERP Database is a project of, and property of NAFHA. Yes, it is NAFHA-centric and will stay that way forever.

If you're serious, Shane, with your concerns and criticism, I can only say that entering records into the NAFHA HERP Database is totally voluntary. If you're not happy with it, get involved and work to change the things you think need to be improved, or don't enter any records. It's pretty simple.

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ratsnakehaven
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by ratsnakehaven »

Just a personal note here... ;)

I know Shane and have herped with him. He's a good herper and scholar and very upfront and has herpetological integrity. I believe he's just trying to make some points about NAFHA and the database. Some points are fairly obvious, such as the small number of officers and people making the main decisions. Also the main contributors to the database are a fairly small number.

In my opinion NAFHA is what it is and will be slow in changing. If it has problems, it has problems. Maybe we will attract more members over time. Maybe the quality of our data entries will improve over time as more and more folks get the idea of what is important and how to make great entries. Hopefully, agencies of conservation and scientific studies will find uses for our data as time goes on. Maybe we will learn things from them and their requests which will help us improve what we do.

For now, I enjoy having a place where I can keep track of the herps that I see, and to learn from the records that we get. Hopefully, in the long run, I'll be able to make some quality finds that might even help the researchers, and I'll have an organization that will help me take notice of the quality of my finds and maybe even suggest when a certain record should be published, or whatever.

Just a few thoughts. Nothing too important, I'm sure...Terry

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Steve Bledsoe
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

One point that seems to be misunderstood is who is making the decisions for NAFHA. Although we have an International Board with 18 members, with the way our bylaws are written, those members are powerless to make decisions on their own regarding the management of the database. All major decisions regarding the database and how our organization is run are decided by a vote of the entire membership. The fact that only a small percentage of our membership actually takes part in those polls is one of the unfortunate circumstances in almost any volunteer organization. As we grow, hopefully we will attract more and more members who are enthusiastic about the management of the database and the NAFHA organization in general.

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Don Becker
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Don Becker »

For the record, I don't expect HERP to be the only project like ours nor do I assume NAFHA will last forever. Or goal is to unite amateurs with professionals but that doesn't mean we always have to be the middle man. We are laying the ground work and inspiring people. People are slowly realizing this can work, and similar regional projects are popping. Some of them use the same code as HERP, but others do not. My goal is to create tools to allow people to share the data they have and others to find it. HERP is currently the primary tool, but I don't plan for that to always be the case. After the mobile app I have plans to make a small desktop app that can be used to export you data and import it into other projects. In the long term, I think a peer to peer network would be awesome. A napster of sorts for wildlife records. I would like to see data replicated around the world so there is 1000 backup copies. I am not sure how far I will see it go, but I will run with it as far as I can.

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jonathan
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by jonathan »

Steve Bledsoe wrote:One point that seems to be misunderstood is who is making the decisions for NAFHA. Although we have an International Board with 18 members, with the way our bylaws are written, those members are powerless to make decisions on their own regarding the management of the database.
Ah. I didn't have a clue where the "18 people" came from. Considering that actual votes get at least 40-50 voters and many get more than that, I never thought that 18 people made the decisions.

Shane_TX - could you let us know what decisions you see being made by the IB, if that's indeed who you were talking about? I honestly don't think they've made many important decisions, especially in comparison to the decisions voted on by the whole membership.

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Steve Bledsoe
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

psyon wrote:For the record, I don't expect HERP to be the only project like ours nor do I assume NAFHA will last forever. Or goal is to unite amateurs with professionals but that doesn't mean we always have to be the middle man.
As usual Don, you're thinking way ahead of me, but I have to disagree with you on this issue. We've been reminded recently of the importance of our database being associated with a stable organization in order to insure its integrity and longevity as an information and citation source. Strengthening NAFHA and assuring it's future is critical to the future usefulness and validity of the HERP database. The people who are the members of NAFHA are the ones who will continue to strive to unite professional and amateur herpetologists and continue to educate the public about our native herps, not the database. People make it happen, and the people of NAFHA must continue promoting themselves and the database.

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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by hellihooks »

I agree that Nafha Will become a stable respected institution... and what is needed is more commitment from it's member's. Those who serve as officers are (or should be) setting the standard, and as the Nafha grows internally (new chapter formation) there will be more and more people 'stepping up to the plate' to serve as officers. And in a similar fashion, as the Nafha's list of accomplishments and reputation grows, so should it attract more and more members willing to commit.
As a new paradigm, the 'citizen scientist' model may take a while to get rolling, and certainly some adjustments will be necessary, but I see the Nafha outliving all it's current members and obtaining the status of say The Audubon Society, wherein in the field of Herpetology, being part of the Nafha will be a given, and within families a tradition, as we also focus on developing the future generations of Field Herpers.
Once you're committed to an institution, it's hard to get out... believe me, I know... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim

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Biker Dave
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Biker Dave »

Has anyone noticed that Shane has not added anything since his original post? WaS this nothing but a "drive by" ?

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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by hellihooks »

While I don't KNOW that this is the case... when dealing with people online, that you don't personally know... it is SOMETIMES the case that they may post things in a fit of either drunkeness or depression, or pure 'bad mood' (having been imbibing or gone off meds) and may not even recall doing it. Or... just stirring up a shitstorm for the hell of it... :roll:
given no responses... one can only wonder... :| jim

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kyle loucks
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by kyle loucks »

Is there a gun to peoples heads? WTF! If you don't like NAFHA or the database go somewhere else. This applies to anyone who have said nothing constructive. OPT out? What the heck is that?

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Don Becker
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Don Becker »

Steve Bledsoe wrote:As usual Don, you're thinking way ahead of me, but I have to disagree with you on this issue. We've been reminded recently of the importance of our database being associated with a stable organization in order to insure its integrity and longevity as an information and citation source.
Trust me, I've thought about that already. My long term goals will still allow for records to be cited.
Strengthening NAFHA and assuring it's future is critical to the future usefulness and validity of the HERP database. The people who are the members of NAFHA are the ones who will continue to strive to unite professional and amateur herpetologists and continue to educate the public about our native herps, not the database. People make it happen, and the people of NAFHA must continue promoting themselves and the database.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for keeping NAFHA alive as long as possible, and I will do everything I can to help ensure it's longevity as long as possible. Things change though, and who knows where we will all be in 50 years, or where the internet will take us in 100 years. I think anyone who puts faith in any institution being around forever are a bit naive. There are plenty of unknown circumstances that can affect our group. I do think we will be just as stable as any other current institution, but I also know unexpected things happen. My plan is to ensure that the data we collect will outlive us and any organization we have formed or will form.

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Brian Hubbs
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Is Shane TX the same as Shane OK? I think this might be one of his twisted attempts to stir the pot... :lol:

Shane_TX
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Shane_TX »

What prompted this post was mostly my (mis?)understanding of the relationship between NAFHA and the HERP Database. I have been interested (primarily) in the HERP Database since its inception. In the early days, IIRC, NAFHA was a social organization that strongly supported the database. I recall that the database was considered a stand-alone project. I may be wrong (due to the FHF-crash I don't have the convenience of a digital record). Don, was there ever a time when the database was truly stand-alone, or has it always been considered a property of NAFHA and susceptible to popular vote?

If the database is in fact a property of NAFHA, then it is susceptible to popular vote. Given the diversity of NAFHA membership, I don't think that's a good thing for the database. I don't have any problem with NAFHA when it comes to being a social organization. However, when it comes to the database, I would like to rest easy in knowing that it is not at the whim of popular votes.

As it stands now, in order to create an account on the HERP Database, I have to agree to the NAFHA Bylaws......does that mean that by entering data I must agree to the popular vote (and that the popular vote controls the database)? There is an option for chapter membership (to me that signals some distinction, and it's not very clear).

To address some specific comments:
I'm not sure why you would think that the database is not stable....its pretty much independent of the forum.

Would it really matter if there 500 people voting vs the 18 you state? Either way, you have a group of concerned people that care about the database. Without counting all the names I would guesstimate at least 200+ people contributing to the database. So by their participation they are, in a way, approving of the so called union of 18 voting members you speak of.

The other option I would suggest, if you really wish to separate yourself from the DB is giving your data to your local university or zoo.

Thats my 2 cents.

I hope you change your mind though and join up with us.
My concern is that the database is not independent of NAFHA (= the forum).

I do understand that there is a group of concerned people and I count myself as one. I'm more of a database champion, though. My entry of data (participation) should not mean that I have to follow a popular vote.

I like the database, that's why I'm critical. I already know how to submit records to more formal sources.
It has taking me 4 months just to enter a Ringneck into a university.
Why?
You don't say? The NAFHA database has become NAFHA-centric ladies and gentlemen!
What would it mean for the NAFHA database to not be "NAFHA-centric"?
Do you mean the HERP Database?
Just a personal note here...
Thanks, Terry.
One point that seems to be misunderstood is who is making the decisions for NAFHA. Although we have an International Board with 18 members
Ah. I didn't have a clue where the "18 people" came from. Considering that actual votes get at least 40-50 voters and many get more than that, I never thought that 18 people made the decisions.
No misunderstanding, 18 was just a random number. I normally hit a better random number, like 973, or 17 or 19. My apologies for the confusion.

In any case, nothing new on my end. I've always been in favor of a healthy separation between NAFHA and the HERP Database.
Is there a gun to peoples heads? WTF! If you don't like NAFHA or the database go somewhere else. This applies to anyone who have said nothing constructive. OPT out? What the heck is that?
That might just be a good definition of NAFHA-centric.....though it shouldn't be that way.

Shane

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Don Becker
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Don Becker »

Shane, NAFHA was founded with the HERP database as it's primary project. The goal of NAFHA is to unite amateurs with professionals, and HERP was the way to do that. The bylaws of NAFHA are very database centric. Untying NAFHA from HERP would be harder than vice versa.

I am still not really clear on what you are worried about "18 people" changing via popular vote. We have made a few bylaw changes that affect how we vote and what is considered a membership, and have voted to change the list of taxa we use, but no real serious changes. Everyone will always have complete control of their own data with the option to release it to who ever they way, and also to remove it from the database should they feel the need. The only two exceptions to that rule are:

1. There are plans for a site like BugGuide.net, but for herps. Photos and information submitted to that site will be included in the HERP data after the animal is identified. The assumed demographic of the site will be people who do not have a serious interest in herps, so the data collected via that site will belong to NAFHA, and released (presumably) by vote of the IB.

2. The discussion of death has come up, along with general inactivity. If a person enters records, and simply walks away and never comes back, never responds to emails for voting, what should we do with that persons records? If we can't release them, we have no point in storing them, and no one wants to see records deleted. It has been discussed that after a period of time NAFHA can take control over those records as well. The discussion has been basic still so far, only talking about the idea, and not so much how we should implement it.

If there is ever talk of NAFHA taking control of records (aside from maybe changing the taxon, maybe), from people who are active and participating, I would walk away from the project. That is the one place where I would be evil dictator Don, put my foot down, and then take my ball and go home.

Out side of that, what are your concerns with the voting?

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Biker Dave
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Biker Dave »

Shane

Are you confusing NAFHA with FHF?

Dave

Shane_TX
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Shane_TX »

NAFHA was founded with the HERP database as it's primary project. The goal of NAFHA is to unite amateurs with professionals, and HERP was the way to do that. The bylaws of NAFHA are very database centric. Untying NAFHA from HERP would be harder than vice versa.
I suppose I focus more on the A-line:

ARTICLE II. PURPOSE

The purpose of the association will be:

A. To collect scientific data on wild reptiles and amphibians in the United States, Canada, and Mexico and maintain [emphasis mine, versus own] a database for the collection and sharing of such scientific data.
I am still not really clear on what you are worried about "18 people" changing via popular vote.
18 was a random number. Apparently 40-60 is a more realistic number. My concern is database versus NAFHA Forum participation. The conundrum might be on me....if it's only active (NAFHA) forum participants who enter data.
If there is ever talk of NAFHA taking control of records (aside from maybe changing the taxon, maybe), from people who are active and participating, I would walk away from the project.
I view it the other way around.....is it a fight for activity or a solid database. [no question mark on that one]
Are you confusing NAFHA with FHF?
No. That creed of ownership came up once, though. The last I saw the dude had a FHF tat on his arm. There's a healthy separation between FHF and NAFHA/Database, and I like it.

Shane

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Don Becker
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Don Becker »

Shane shed some light on his view on this in another topic. His issue is that signing up to naherp.com makes you a member of NAFHA according to the bylaws. There is no way to sign up to enter data without becoming a member of NAFHA.

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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Shane_TX »

Yeah. I don't have the time in the day to fully explain my take on things in a completely well-though-out forum post. I'll try to work on being less concise. For those of you who take an objective stance, it's much appreciated.

Shane

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Don Becker
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Don Becker »

Shane, I am quoting you from the other topic to avoid hijacking it.
Shane_TX wrote:
How is being a non-voting member, when no dues are collected, any different than just not being a member?
To me it's one of being a stake-holder. Data-entrants should be considered stake-holders in the database (not necessarily NAFHA). I think it's premature to assume that they automatically agree with NAFHA votes when it comes to the database. It may take some time to manifest, but when changes happen with only 40-60 votes and it significantly affects the database, there will be a call of alarm.

Again though, I'm not intimately familiar with who actually enters records and who votes. If 90% of data-entrants vote then it's mostly a moot point.
What changes to the database are you worried about? We've amended the bylaws to change membership definitions, which is so that NAFHA can distance itself from people who are doing bad things. I have said in the past that I don't think signing up on HERP should be all that is needed to be a member. Somehow that got changed to Non-voting member in the bylaw changes. We also changed the voting rules so that a minimum number of members were required to have voted on any poll we do. The other votes have been made to change the taxon list.

If a single person had control of the database, everyone would be at the whim of what ever that one person decided. If you assign any other organization to it, then the board of the organization would be no different than it is setup now. Is your issue more than the votes are currently handled on FHF rather than on HERP itself? I know that can cause some issues, as people who don't frequent the forum may not notice the vote going on. Votes on data releases are emailed to the person who has records that were asked for. If the person doesn't respond, their data isn't released unless they have selected to do so in their profile.

What exactly do you feel needs to change?

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Steve Bledsoe
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

I fail to see the problem .
NAFHA members are a group of people who build, manage and own the data in the HERP Database. I don't see how anyone could consider them to be anything but stake-holders.

If you want to enter data into the database, you must agree to the rules by which it is managed, namely the NAFHA bylaws. Signing up and becoming a member of NAFHA is nothing more than agreeing to the bylaws.

I appears that someone here gets a lot of enjoyment out of chasing his own tail.

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Don Becker
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Don Becker »

Steve Bledsoe wrote:NAFHA members are a group of people who build, manage and own the data in the HERP Database.
I feel I should clarify that the group as a whole does not own the data.

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jonathan
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by jonathan »

How about a compromise?

Most of us see Shane's desire to "opt-out" of NAFHA but still enter database data as a meaningless concern.

However, his concern shows that there are one or more people who would prefer to enter database data, but not be a part of NAFHA.

So, why not alter the manner in which NAFHA "membership" is bestowed? How about when someone creates an account, they check an option to either become a member of NAFHA or not. If they choose "no", then their data is still subject to the same rules, and is still used in data requests in the same manner. The only difference is that they are not "called" a "NAFHA member" and they don't vote on NAFHA issues or participate in NAFHA events, such as surveys.

As long as their data is subject to the same rules as all other data, I don't see how this would be an issue at all. In fact, the very fact that the "NAFHA member" option would be in the sign-up form might be the impetus that causes the casual data enterer to take a more active interest in NAFHA. And if it causes a few people to enter data who otherwise would not, I see it as a net plus.

Or we could keep fighting and ripping on each other...

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Don Becker
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Don Becker »

Jonathan, before the last ByLaw revision, I had suggested that a person had to sign up, and then also join a chapter to become a member.

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jonathan
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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by jonathan »

psyon wrote:Jonathan, before the last ByLaw revision, I had suggested that a person had to sign up, and then also join a chapter to become a member.
Sounds good to me. At the time I don't think most of us anticipated a perceived "downside" to being a member. Now that we see that some people have one, I don't see an issue with accommodating them.

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Re: Opt-out of NAFHA?

Post by Biker Dave »

If it leads to more data and happier campers (who potentially could become members) I'm all for it.

Dave

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