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 Post subject: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 6th, 2017, 4:53 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:02 am
Posts: 510
Location: Southern Cal.
I hope they stick it to this person.

http://ktla.com/2017/07/06/8-alligators ... oaks-area/

But, I hope the herps are taken good care of and sent to responsible/legal institutions. It was a very hot day here today. I hope the authorities got help from professionals.

Craig


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 10th, 2017, 6:20 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:30 pm
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Location: St Louis, MO / Hartford, CT
Jeez. Keep whatever you want for all I care, but when it starts affecting your neighbors, that's a legit problem that your neighborhood should not have to deal with. Personally, I love snakes, but I don't want to be surprised by a cobra while I am gardening!


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 11th, 2017, 10:30 am 
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Location: Unicoi, TN
The really sad part, because of a jackass like this, ignorant kneejerk politicians will try, and sometimes succeed, placing lunatic laws or regulations into place.


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 11th, 2017, 10:49 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:02 am
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Location: Southern Cal.
Well, I couldn't agree more Bill. This is California for heavens sake. Maybe we should ban all snakes over two feet and label them as "dangerous"? Maybe no one should be allowed to keep more than ten reptiles??

After all, turtles can carry salmonella !

Unfortunately the knee jerk is never anything based on actual facts, or expected to actually to stop the problem.

It just makes the uninformed feel safer...

This is from a fifth generation Californian. It wasn't always this way...

And so it goes.....

craig


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 12th, 2017, 7:38 am 
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Anti ownership nutjobs and their limp noodle political friends live for these moments. It gives them an excuse. About a year ago a similar thing happened a few miles from my house. The anti ownership asshats wasted no time launching a full attack to try and bully their way to bans or at the very least hyper restrictive laws (as a good as a ban). Thousands of people maintain exotic animals and occasionally things will happen. The fact that serious incidents are so few and far in-between is the true testimony as to how minuscule the issues hyped up by activist asshats and their media allies genuinely is. My question is why did this situation require an 8 week investigation? With Everyone short of the air force getting involved . No one should ever be handcuffed and arrested for this type of thing. Its a FK'ing permit violation. Revoke the permit, confiscate the animals, hand out a fine. End of story. As a side note in Cali snowflake just like Florida native snakes far more dangerous then the "exotic" involved here regularly show up in people yard's, garages, driveway's etc.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 12th, 2017, 7:13 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:30 pm
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Location: St Louis, MO / Hartford, CT
Ernie, I think the difference is a native species was unavoidable and anti-venin more likely available, yes? Exotic venomous, at least to me, should be kept under very very careful attention. I don't want to encourage a witchhunt, but I do make a distinction.


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 13th, 2017, 1:15 pm 
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Ernie, I think the difference is a native species was unavoidable and anti-venin more likely available, yes? Exotic venomous, at least to me, should be kept under very very careful attention. I don't want to encourage a witchhunt, but I do make a distinction.


Anti-venin availability is not an issue. A snake is a snake. Exotic or not its just another snake and poses no greater threat then what's already crawling around. If one of the guys rattlesnakes got loose it would be the same thing. Just another snake. Because a snake is from an exotic country people think that somehow its much more dangerous then just a regular local snake. Not true at all. Naturally anyone maintaining venomous reptiles needs to be to diligent with their follow thru. Its a shame this guy was careless. It seems like he had a nice collection. The only place in the world this is a story is in the US. And that's by design. The best is when the media gets their expert interviews, someone from the local zoo or museum To talk about how deadly these animals are.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 15th, 2017, 8:33 am 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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Interesting commentary, predictable destination. Personally, I would like to know more about how it comes to pass that in the space of 3 years there are 2 incidents of a loose cobra in a single small city. Obviously there has been a breakdown in the joint (keeper/regulator) process of permitting, compliance, reporting, and enforcement. I hope there is a smart diagnosis and correction. Unfortunately, I hope but I am not really hopeful - I doubt there will be a good outcome for other keepers and would-be keepers.

Keeping venomous snakes is really quite safe and simple if you just follow a few rules diligently:
- only use snake-tight cages
- never stick your body parts into an occupied cage
- shut the door when you're done in a cage
- keep all your cages in a locked, dedicated, snake-tight room or building, for when you screw up somehow and leave a door open (eventually, it will probably happen)

If the owner(s) of the 2 escapees had followed these simple, easy-to-follow rules, it is exceedingly unlikely that either escape would have happened. If, historically, all US venomous keepers had followed these rules, I believe we wouldn't face a present where most Americans cannot easily and legally keep venomous snakes if they want to. That's a shame. Hardly anybody wants to, there's really not many good reasons to restrict those exceedingly few people from doing what they like. One good reason, however, is when just a handful of keepers threaten their neighbors with their negligent, anti-social practices, and let cobras etc out onto the streets.

I disagree that escaped-captive venomous snakes is only news in the USA. I expect that - for example - an escaped-captive cobra or rattlesnake roaming London or Tokyo would make the news there. Not because of some media conspiracy, but because people have a reasonable apprehension of uncaged cobras and rattlesnakes.

As for "a snake is a snake" - wow, that one is waaaay too smart for this dope, I just can't fathom it. Long ago my wife - my first and only wife - and I came to an agreement: I am to keep nothing that is likely to kill or seriously maim anybody it bites. So, no large Bitis, none of the large (> about 4') rattlesnakes or lanceheads, no Daboia or Echis, etc etc. Subjective and sloppy, and a sea lawyer could pick it to pieces, but frankly it's kind of like porn - you know it when you see it. "Oh me, oh my - just look at these Deinagkistrodon. Such lovely creatures, how very attractive I find them! Very seductive, very desirable. Drool, slurp, drool, pant. Ahhhh, crap. Crap crap crap crap CRAP. I better not; in all honesty to my self and honor to my wife - that feels like cheating. Oh well, what else do I see around here?" That was a pretty easy compromise to make, scratching off "my list of possibles" perhaps 5-10% of global viper diversity, considering she gave up the privilege - the reasonable expectation - of a hot-free house. "A snake is a snake." Yeah, I'm just too dumb to ever understand that little pearl of wisdom.


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 15th, 2017, 12:23 pm 
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As for "a snake is a snake" - wow, that one is waaaay too smart for this dope, I just can't fathom it.
"A snake is a snake." Yeah, I'm just too dumb to ever understand that little pearl of wisdom.


Clearly. I didn't think anyone could not comprehend my statement based on the context of the conversation or its biological categorization.

The US is overrun by anti ownership cockballons and snowflakes. They prop up the media agenda. The family Dog kills more children (and old people) in the US annually then all the escaped venomous snakes have in US history (its never happened). Maybe next time someone's dog goes running down the street it should make national headlines. Venomous snake keepers are not and have not ever been an important risk to pubic safety in the US or anywhere else. No legal obligations or lack of has ever changed that.

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I would like to know more about how it comes to pass that in the space of 3 years there are 2 incidents of a loose cobra in a single small city. Obviously there has been a breakdown in the joint (keeper/regulator) process of permitting, compliance, reporting, and enforcement. I hope there is a smart diagnosis and correction.


Golly tough one, a careless keeper maybe. A loose lid ? Smart diagnosis and correction ? What the fk? There's nothing to correct. I have no idea and nether does any of the other yardmouths about what was going on. It seems he a had a nice collection of well cared for animals . The guy 100 animals and for whatever reason there was a couple accidental escapes over the course of a few years. You cant have that with venomous snakes. Revoke his permits, write a ticket , done.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 16th, 2017, 8:57 am 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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The family Dog kills more children (and old people) in the US annually then all the escaped venomous snakes have in US history (its never happened).

Right, dogs in the US kill about 20 people a year, some years double that. While there's never - not once, ever - been "an innocent bystander" killed by an escaped venomous snake in the US (not yet anyway...it'll probably happen).

What's happened with dogs is there's all sorts of breed bans and breed restrictions. You see them on rental agreements, you see them on homeowner's insurance policies. It's partly dumb and partly understandable (and still dumb). Some dog breeds are more dangerous than others, due to physical capabilities and temperamental dispositions. But IMO most dog-involved tragedies involve bad dog-keeping and also often bad parenting or dumb kids. Research shows that breed bans don't do much to reduce bites (fatal or otherwise), what works is effective, active enforcement of animal-control laws. Dogs can't just be roaming the neighborhood, they can't be left in the yard all day long, they need to be on-leash for the most part, etc etc. People controlling their own dogs reduces accidents, but there's idiots out there and they need a nudge to control their animals. Honestly, it makes life better for us all - for example, now we don't need to worry about getting bitten by loose dogs every time we jump on a bike or go for a run. Unlike in the 70's and earlier, before the animal control laws, when every trip outside the house was a crapshoot with the neighborhood dog pack.

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Smart diagnosis and correction ? What the fk? There's nothing to correct.

You've clearly never been involved in an investigation of a regulatory screw-up, and you appear to show little interest in, or aptitude for, systems analysis. (Witness your continuous whacko-jacko ascriptions of motive and causality.)

- Keeping non-native venomous snakes in CA requires a state permit. I vaguely understand they are not easy to obtain.

- Presumably there is an application and approval process to successfully obtain one of these state permits, probably including an assessment of species requested, caging provisions, escape and bite protocols etc.

- I doubt these lifelong permits, most state permits of any kind are either one-time or annual. So the keeper probably would have been "looked at" every year. His facility and caging probably would have been visited and inspected at least the first time, probably more than that.

- Besides a state permit, there may well have been have been county or city permits required too.

- Somewhere, maybe several in somewheres, the process of getting a permit(s) and keeping it/them (due to satisfying the stipulations) broke down. Obviously that is the fault of the keeper, but the permitting agency/agencies also have some egg on their face. Could be they just got taken by the keeper, or maybe their inspection interval has gotten to be too long, or they have inspectors who have no idea what they are doing (seen that myself, as a regulated keeper elsewhere) - who knows what?

- Either the agency figures out if and how their permit system is screwed up, or they just end the permit program. There is no other politically-viable alternative - they can't just go on like nothing happened.

You have to understand, I'm not advocating for bans. That just drives everyone underground. A system where people can realistically get permits, by keeping venomous properly, and also lose their permits for bad keeping, is the only rational option. Unfortunately, when people get upset, rationality goes out the window. It doesn't matter that "statistically, there's no risk". People perceive a risk and something has to be done. Do you not comprehend the social dimension of the human condition? Not liking it doesn't make it go away.

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Revoke his permits, write a ticket , done.

Wow, and you call me clueless. No, not done. The people of Thousand Oaks have had 2 cobras loose in 3 years and I seriously doubt they are OK with that. Something is broken. "You cant have that with venomous snakes." Right, you can't. A ban won't end escapes, and a permit system where it's so hard to get a permit that effectively there's a ban will not end escapes either.

Herpers acting and talking like not much happened, and nothing needs to be done, are a pretty sure way to get more bans. Bans don't work, but the public don't care. They want rolling heads. When you've had multiple cobras loose on your streets, would that be too hard to understand?


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 17th, 2017, 4:45 am 
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- Somewhere, maybe several in somewheres, the process of getting a permit(s) and keeping it/them (due to satisfying the stipulations) broke down. Obviously that is the fault of the keeper, but the permitting agency/agencies also have some egg on their face.


Try to follow this. The guy was keeping snakes at an unpermitted address. He had permits for one facility but was keeping animals at another. Three years ago when the first escape happened obviously nobody knew (or said anything) that he had the animals there. An escaped snake was found that could have come from anywhere. The permitting agencies had nobody to go after. Its like anything else they count on witnesses for leads. Last time they didn't have any. Obviously since then one or more of his yardmouth neighbors found out about his collection and they reported him this time. The permitting agencies came in and do what they are suppose to do. Its how the legal system works. The guy tried to get away with something and because of his carelessness got caught. The idea of a permitting system is to minimalize risk and create accountability. That's exactly what happened here. Nothing broke down.

Your comments about the dogs and your other remarks go beyond everyday cluelessness. They are truly goofy. Its not surprising you had an association with the USGS. Your a perfect fit.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 17th, 2017, 12:30 pm 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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It's called inventory control. It's simple in concept. What did you start the year with, and what did you end the year with? Where was it, and where is it all now? What have you brought in, what have you bred? What has died or been sold/traded/given away? Who from, and who to? There's reporting, and there's also inspections. "Trust but verify." If the numbers don't add up...there's system leakage. Like, sales or relocation to an unpermitted facility, or to unpermitted keepers. Or there's unreported importing, or acquisition form unpermitted instate keepers. Of course someone can game a system successfully, but if the cost/benefit relationship is set up well, and the system is open enough to actually get into, most people will find it better - both easier and "more profitable" - to comply than to cheat.

Some societies are going to find it worth the trouble to set up and maintain such a bothersome venomous-regulation system. Others are going to be "wide open" (e.g., MS, SC). Still others are going to try to be "absolutely shut" (NJ, CT). They aren't, but they like to pretend. Everyone started out wide open, but with the remaining in-between states, things often get shut or restricted when bad stuff happens (e.g., keeper fatality in NM a few years ago). So, to me, the key to keeping some venomous liberties is to prevent bad stuff from happening. Not pretending or insisting they didn't happen or they won't happen. It's a commonsense compromise a tiny minority can make, so as not to agitate an overwhelming majority into taking punitive action. It's basic politics, and also a posture of reasonable living with your neighbors. "Just leave me the hell alone" is not reasonable among many societies, when someone can get killed or hurt. One thing that everybody knows about snakes is, "they get out". People need assurances that isn't going to happen, that there's a working system to prevent that.

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The idea of a permitting system is to minimalize risk and create accountability. That's exactly what happened here. Nothing broke down.


Obviously (to me, anyway...) based on the Thousand Oaks example the CA system is not working that well.
- On the keeper side, there have been 2 escapes in 3 years. A better complier - or a better cheater - than this guy would have tight cages, a tight facility, and would also have better cage-entry and cage-exit protocols or habits. That would minimize risk, permit or none.
- On the regulator side, it looks like there was woefully inadequate inventory control. This story doesn't start 3 years ago. It starts when the violator first applied for a permit.

I can't fathom your assertion that "nothing broke down". Seriously. Two loose cobras in 3 years, in one town? That is not a functioning permitting system, that's bad stuff happening, putting the general public at a risk they aren't likely to appreciate. So I'm afraid we will see the current system in CA "held accountable" - blown up rather than rehabilitated. Then we'll just see more underground hot keeping in CA, which I believe is already pretty widespread, because the permits are so hard to get, as I hear it told.


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 18th, 2017, 6:11 am 
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It's called inventory control. It's simple in concept. What did you start the year with, and what did you end the year with? Where was it, and where is it all now? What have you brought in, what have you bred? What has died or been sold/traded/given away? Who from, and who to? There's reporting, and there's also inspections. Ramble on and on and on..............



For the common sense impaired. All those things listed are already in place in current permitting systems. I thought my last post explained things clearly enough so that anyone could comprehend.

The guy involved had TWO collections.

Collection A: This collection was held at a PERMITTED FACILITY with NO reported issues. The guy knew he had to follow all the guidelines and regulations at this facility because the permit requires strict "inventory control". The permits make him accountable for all listed inventory. Obviously at the PERMITTED FACILITY he had to maintain the correct standards and apparently did. But for whatever reason he had a second collection ........

Collection B: A secret unpermitted collection at the Thousand Oaks location. Two escapes happened at this location. The guy got careless. He obviously thought he could cut corners and get away with with it since nobody knew. It wasn't until the permitting agencies FOUND OUT about this unpermitted collection that they were able to do anything about it. Example. Someone can have a divers license and drunk drive everyday for years. What can the cops do about that if they don't know? NOTHING. The cops cant arrest someone for drunk driving until they catch them drunk driving. Is that too hard to understand.

NOTHING can be done to stop someone from conducting bootleg activity's but in this case the permitting system worked exactly how it was intended by providing both traceability and accountably.

Based on the Thousand Oaks example and many other examples the CA system IS WORKING as well any other permitting system works. It was because of the permitting system that the problems associated with this sloppy keeper have now been addressed.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 18th, 2017, 10:50 am 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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But for whatever reason he had a second collection ........

Yes, I got that. You're assuming, and repeatedly stating, that I'm cognitively defective when in fact I just disagree with you. Charming. Breitbart much?

Inventory control needs to be reconciled at ports of entry and among permit holders. This guy could have gone full-sneak (like a non-permit-holder) and driven to a hot show back east somewhere, Michigan or Pennsylvania or Texas or wherever, and driven the secret animals back into the state. But what a hassle, what a waste of time and money. I bet he had them shipped normally. He probably got his secret animals Delta-cargoed into LAX; cost per animal to ship naturally goes down the more animals you put in a box, so he could well have had animals destined for both facilities in the same crate. He probably showed his permit to the seller, who said "oh, great, you're legal, we got a deal". The cargo manifest just shows the buyer's or the buyer's agent's address, which is checked against ID (just a driver's license, typically) at the air cargo office by a Delta employee. So typically that's gonna be home address, not facility address. You know all this already, I imagine. There's no state fish & game guy at the airport checking internal (non-international) shipments. Just the guy picking up the crate, whose identity is checked by a cargo guy against the manifest showing who's supposed to be picking up. The cargo guy desperately wants that box to be kept shut, not opened in his office. "Cobras you say? Have a nice day!" There's nobody else present on-site to validate inventory, and I have not seen, in places I have lived and operated, that state fish and game checks up periodically with Delta on all internal venomous shipments. (Did American keep accepting venomous shipments when they acquired US Airways? Does Delta still have competition for shipping venomous?)

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What can the cops do about that if they don't know? NOTHING.

Yeah, no kidding. That's what I'm saying, there are some pretty obvious and not-so-hard ways they could greatly increase their knowing. Is it so hard to understand?

This shipping hack is a systemic weakness that can be easiest exploited by permit holders, it's much harder for unpermitted folks unless they have someone willing to break the law shipping to them. Thankfully, that has gotten rarer internally (I've been hearing some crazy stuff out of China lately, but I bet you've got better stories than me.) Dirty permit holders makes it look to the public like having a permit system is dumb, and the whole affair should just be outlawed. That is what I am against.

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Of course someone can game a system successfully, but if the cost/benefit relationship is set up well, and the system is open enough to actually get into, most people will find it better - both easier and "more profitable" - to comply than to cheat.

I still maintain that tweaking the dials of the system would increase participation and decrease cheating. Unregulated facilities and collections are a risk factor - as evidenced by the 2 escapes in rapid succession.

To put it another way - a better system would improve prevention and reduce the need to react to preventable things. It would be easier to get into, not a huge PITA to stay in (including more things as "fix-it tickets" and less things as "you're outta here"), and also provide major penalties to major scofflaws. Like guys who have escapes and don't report them. Prerequisites for the development for such a system include an agency willing to work with the stakeholders, and stakeholders willing to stick out the long process to change rules. I have not seen that these prerequisites exist in CA.

But you seem to know everything, so maybe you could enlighten the rest of us.


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 19th, 2017, 6:08 am 
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But you seem to know everything, so maybe you could enlighten the rest of us.


I cant "enlighten" someone who is overly biased in their view or overly obsessed with being right or just FK'n stupid. Sometimes all three. For example,

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- Keeping non-native venomous snakes in CA requires a state permit. I vaguely understand they are not easy to obtain. Presumably there is an application and approval process blathering on and on.......


This guy presumes and vaguely understands the permitting process but yet he's endlessly run his keyboard mouth about what's wrong the system, what needs to be done, how's it not working , his great ideas about what should be done etc, etc etc............Not understanding something wont get in this guys way when it comes to telling others what's wrong and how to fix things.

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- Either the agency figures out if and how their permit system is screwed up, or they just end the permit program. There is no other politically-viable alternative - they can't just go on like nothing happened.


Just let it go like nothing happened ? WTF . They arrested the guy and confiscated his animals.There was no screw up in the permit system. The two escapes had NOTHNG to do with any permitting system. I guess this is to complicated for some to understand.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 19th, 2017, 1:35 pm 

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The idea of a permitting system is to minimalize risk and create accountability.


Will the people of Thousand Oaks believe and trust that the permitting (& its reciprocal cheating) system that has recently delivered at least 2 unreported escapes has adequately "minimalized" risk and created accountability? It's just a matter of luck that nobody got bit - who can't see that? And, it's by no means certain that there have only been 2 escapes. Hell, maybe there's another loose cobra out there right now. I doubt there's nobody in Thousand Oaks thinking that right now...

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The two escapes had NOTHNG to do with any permitting system.


They happened in the presence of a permitting system. One or both were committed by an individual who had been given a permit. So yeah, one or both had a lot in common - in association - with the current permitting system.

I'm not thinking about what I think. I don't really care that much to learn what Ernie thinks. What interests me is what the public thinks, and what the permitting agency(s) and their executive & legislative overlords think, and what happens with legally keeping hots in CA in the next year or two or three.

It is conceivable that the public and the agency and politicians at all levels just let this go like it's had a happy ending and there's nothing to be improved. More conceivable is that a bigger distraction comes along and everybody forgets. It's also conceivable - much more so, IMO - that there are some pretty damn unhappy people out there right now who haven't forgotten anything, and are working to change something. They probably wouldn't want to do the hard work of improving the system, they'd probably go straight for a ban.



I think any current permitted venomous keepers in CA would be smart to try and get ahead of what might be brewing, and try to craft some ways to secure what is self-evidently, empirically, a leaky, unreliable system. Otherwise I fear the future of legal hot-keeping - at least for exotics, and maybe for natives - in CA is grim.


***************************************************************************

My sense is that you, Ernie, would think TO residents agitated about the escapes are just whiners. "Snowflakes." Like they have no right to be upset, or to expect anything better for themselves, and they ought to just shut up.

I like snakes, and I like venomous snakes enough to want them in my house, and I gotta tell ya the idea of loose cobras in my roses or veggies, or under my swing-set, gives me the creeps. I suspect such feelings would be nearly universal - as far from "biased" as can be imagined. I think to trivialize being unhappy with loose cobras in the neighborhood is a grave offense to those who were put at grave risk - and that there's a psychopathy there. I sincerely hope you get some help with that, Ernie.

Ernie, you aren't by chance the guy who shipped these cobras to California, are you? Or maybe you know the guy? You sure seem to know more than you initially suggested:
Quote:
I have no idea and nether does any of the other yardmouths about what was going on.


Is that why you're so bent out of shape, Ernie? Is that why you keep trying to insult me and run me off (good luck!!!), and why you keep sidestepping the implications of these escapes to 1) the future of legal venomous keeping in CA and 2) the future of the vendors who would supply a white market there? Who won't you engage on those issues, instead of escalating the personal attacks?

We aren't going to be seeing your name in the news, are we Ernie? I sure hope not.


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 19th, 2017, 7:29 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:30 pm
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Location: St Louis, MO / Hartford, CT
I have no solutions. When I lived in St. Louis, I visited a guy who had Cobras in Illinois. Now that I live in CT, a guy down the road has eyelash vipers whom I swap mice with depending on who has more or less. Perhaps venomous is just destined to exist in the shadows kind of like so many other things? I don't keep any so it has never effected me thankfully, but we live in an ever increasingly sensationalized society where perceived risk is more important than actual risk, and I just can't see that playing out well for venomous snake keepers over time. Now the guys is likely a real dumba$$ in the this case, but when regulations become overwhelming, it's hard to blame people for simply bypassing them altogether. It's kind of like we all go 5-10mph sometimes or bring fireworks over from another state, just one of those dumb laws that will always be broken and you hope not to be the one unlucky guy fined for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 19th, 2017, 7:52 pm 

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Location: St Louis, MO / Hartford, CT
As far as China goes, I will only say the number of keepers and people with a sincere interest in captive snakes is increasing. The idea that some person in China who takes snakes off the menu and sends them somewhere else as shady is more manifestation of western ethnocentrism than current reality.


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 20th, 2017, 9:43 am 

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I have no solutions.

In situations like this, individuals have ideas, groups (often opposing groups...) have to compile & consider all the ideas, and then hammer out the solutions. My point is, if keepers are not at the table, other groups are probably going to find the solutions without them. Which may be very bad for legal hot-keeping. Which will just drive it underground, where anything can happen. Specifically in this case, I am doubtful that non-keepers (neighbors, the local animal control agency, the city and county councils, (people considering a run at a council seat, and people imagining defending their council seat), probably PETA/HSUS/etc, and probably also CA DFW) are going to determine that 1) the best available idea is to do nothing, and 2) therefore the best imaginable solution is to keep the current system as-is.

Cards up - I hope to retire to that area. I hope to legally keep venomous there when/if I am able to do so. I don't want this dumbass to ruin my chances for that. That's my dog in this fight. Unfortunately I cannot represent myself as I am not yet a legitimate stakeholder - I am merely an interested outsider. Way, way outside.

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When I lived in St. Louis, I visited a guy who had Cobras in Illinois. Now that I live in CT, a guy down the road has eyelash vipers

And both those states are not liberal when it comes to venomous keeping - they are very restrictive. But that doesn't prevent anything, except above-board commerce, mentoring/apprenticeship, inspections, sensible corrections etc etc etc. Your cobra and eyelash keepers might be top-shelf keepers with very, very, very low odds of having bites or escapes. Or they might be all-time dirtbags, just latent accidents in a hurry to happen. I prefer a white market to a black one, a well-regulated system instead of the Wild West. There's ALWAYS gonna be a small market of venomous keepers, so which kind do we want? Well-regulated or Wild West? IMO bans (whether truly de jure, or merely de facto) = Wild West, and no regs also = Wild West.

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The idea that some person in China who takes snakes off the menu and sends them somewhere else as shady is more manifestation of western ethnocentrism than current reality.

I appreciate the sentiment. What I was referring to however, was a Chinese pet-trade live-reptile dealer shipping hots overnight, door to door. Successfully. Perhaps knowing it was illegal, perhaps not - the shade-tone is unknown. The recipient thought they'd merely had a conversation exploring what might be available, at what price - certainly had no intent to make a purchase at that time, let alone in that manner. The seller "fronted" the snakes - no money changed hands. The recipient reported the incident to FWS, who are looking into it. I'm told they were nice - top shelf - animals, in excellent condition - evidence for your assertion ("increasing numbers, sincere interest...") which opinion I share BTW. There's some real husbandry skill developing there. But I expect that shipment of animals is all dead now, bagged in an evidence freezer somewhere.

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when regulations become overwhelming, it's hard to blame people for simply bypassing them altogether

Those are parts of human nature - bypassing unreasonable stuff, and looking the other way when you see others do it. Enforcement systems can be sensitive to the more forgivable expressions of human nature, and tend to have some discretionary latitude about both these types ("actually doing", and "just knowing") of violations. But, as they say, "hope is not a plan". Lawbreakers, colluders, conspirators, and knowing abettors should all expect punishment if they are caught. Your aforementioned acquaintances were not very bright in that regard. You should probably also zip it, eh? I hope both those guys stay safe and sincerely try to come into compliance with the law, wherever they live. Sometimes unfortunately you're dealing with a really stubborn system or individual, and a short move would be the easiest solution - e.g., CT to NH, or IL to MI. My understanding - limited and imperfect - is that MI and NH are not nearly as hostile to venomous keeping as CT and IL.

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 20th, 2017, 1:26 pm 
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Joined: June 9th, 2010, 3:03 pm
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and why you keep sidestepping the implications of these escapes


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Anti ownership nutjobs and their limp noodle political friends live for these moments. It gives them an excuse. Ernie Eison


I quoted line one from my first post in this thread. Obviously I never sidestepped anything. Between that and the guys other goofy comments directed at me.......yeeeaaah. Ranting about possible negative implications is one thing but trashing the CA permitting system for what happened. That's a confused view.

What was recently seen in Florida (see my first post / apples to apples comparison ) was that despite stacking the deck the anti ownership cockballons failed. They failed because thankfully some people are experienced and intelligent enough to understand when something is working. They understand that infrequent and isolated instances of people skirting a permit system do not equal a "self-evidently, empirically, a leaky, unreliable system". Only someone with no grasp on reality could come to that conclusion.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Herps confiscated in CA. (Thousand Oaks).
PostPosted: July 20th, 2017, 3:51 pm 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
Posts: 1655
Well, I guess we've had enough fun completely not understanding each other. And you've - again - given the world a new word or two. (So, what is a cockballon anyway? Ballon = French for balloon. Right track?)

Anyway. Time will tell what happens. I hope you are right,

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thankfully some people are experienced and intelligent enough to understand when something is working


and I sincerely hope I am wrong:

Quote:
I am doubtful that non-keepers (neighbors, the local animal control agency, the city and county councils, people considering a run at a council seat, people imagining defending their council seat, probably PETA/HSUS/etc, and probably also CA DFW) are going to determine that 1) the best available idea is to do nothing, and 2) therefore the best imaginable solution is to keep the current system as-is.


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