"Snakebite kit saves man's life"

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onionsack
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"Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by onionsack »

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John Martin
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by John Martin »

Hehe, c'mon, you don't believe that kit really helped?! ;) At least the guy knew enough to not do something to increase his heart rate, that would have been his biggest aid. Scary part is, the attending "physician" really believed in the kit's efficacy also. :roll:
onionsack
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by onionsack »

John Martin wrote:Hehe, c'mon, you don't believe that kit really helped?! ;) At least the guy knew enough to not do something to increase his heart rate, that would have been his biggest aid. Scary part is, the attending "physician" really believed in the kit's efficacy also. :roll:
The scary part for me is the irresponsible journalists promoting this nonsense.
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jdustin
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by jdustin »

For those who might come across this, and don't know.
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gbin
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by gbin »

And for those who would like a more thorough and evenhanded treatment of the subject than Bush's clearly limited work and equally clearly prejudiced writing, look through this 3-page FHF thread from not all that long ago:
Suction syringe venom extractors certainly have their detractors, but said detractors don't have anywhere near as much real evidence behind their negative opinion of the devices as they often pretend to - and that most definitely goes for Sean Bush.

No, I'm not defending the news item that onionsack drew our attention to and that folks are rightly making fun of in this thread.

No, I'm not interested in participating in yet another iteration of the debate held in the 3-page thread I linked above.

Gerry
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jdustin
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by jdustin »

Does the Bush writeup contain unproven conjecture? Perhaps. I can see your points.
But this claim by the manufacturer is simply an all out lie, and anyone with common sense knows it.
a simple push of the plunger with your thumb and the Extractor Pump ® will quickly and effectively remove venoms and poisons from below your skin. By simply cleaning the cups after each use you may safely reuse the pump over and over again.
We don't need Bush et al to tell us that Sawyer's claims are lies.
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gbin
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by gbin »

jdustin wrote:But this claim by the manufacturer is simply an all out lie, and anyone with common sense knows it.
a simple push of the plunger with your thumb and the Extractor Pump ® will quickly and effectively remove venoms and poisons from below your skin. By simply cleaning the cups after each use you may safely reuse the pump over and over again.
We don't need Bush et al to tell us that Sawyer's claims are lies.
If you say so... :roll:

Again, folks with an interest in this subject should check out the thread I linked above.

Gerry
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jdustin
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by jdustin »

I am curious about one thing. For being so skeptical of the study, you sure don't seem to apply any real scrutiny on the claims that the device works.
We all know that time is vital after a bite, and this manufacturer is telling us that the best use of our time is using this device. You just seem very confident that the benefit outweighs any lost time... especially since you appear to be a person who questions the validity of unfounded claims.
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by jdustin »

and yeah, I read the other thread
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gbin
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by gbin »

jdustin wrote:I am curious about one thing. For being so skeptical of the study, you sure don't seem to apply any real scrutiny on the claims that the device works.
We all know that time is vital after a bite, and this manufacturer is telling us that the best use of our time is using this device. You just seem very confident that the benefit outweighs any lost time... especially since you appear to be a person who questions the validity of unfounded claims.
jdustin wrote:and yeah, I read the other thread
Really? It's odd, then, that you would misrepresent my position (as you did above in not just one but a few respects) given how abundantly clear I was there. :? Maybe you should try reading it again.

Gerry
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by jdustin »

Perhaps I misrepresented your position. That wasn't my intention. Please allow me to restate what I truly believe is your position, and then I'd love it if you can correct me where I've got it wrong.

From what I see of the situation, we have a manufacturer making claims of effectiveness, and a writeup claiming that it is not effective at all but actually could cause damage.
You pointed out that no valid work has been done to support either claim.

In the absence of any valid scientific supporting data, you reject the opinion of the "expert" because his opinion is just that, simply conjecture.
Do you reject the claims from Sawyer about their device's effectiveness as conjecture as well? Do you feel that the writeup should be scrutinized more harshly than Sawyer's claims? Perhaps because they misrepresent themselves as scientific evidence, while Sawyer's claim is just marketing?


As for my personal opinion on this issue, I think we all agree that time is of the essence after a bite, and how quickly medical help is available makes a difference.
If I had an extractor immediately handy after a bite I'd probably stick the thing on, BUT ONLY IF doing so would not slow my ability to get actual help at all. It just seems that in most cases it would probably slow you down.
When it comes down to it, since all we have is the opinion of an expert and the opinion of a company whose product makes extravagant claims of effectiveness, I'm leaning towards the expert's opinion. Opinion doesn't mean much, but it's all we have in this situation.
I used to carry 2 extractors, and if new data comes out supporting them, I'll put them back in my bag.
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gbin
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by gbin »

jdustin wrote:... If I had an extractor immediately handy after a bite I'd probably stick the thing on, BUT ONLY IF doing so would not slow my ability to get actual help at all...
In that earlier thread on this same topic, gbin wrote:... I wouldn't delay seeking medical treatment in order to sit there and work a syringe suction device on a bite... The most I think and say is that if it is applied immediately and briefly, a Sawyer Extractor might do at least some good by removing at least some venom, and if nothing else it won't cause any harm.
Well, there you go; apparently we actually hold very similar opinions of these devices, even if we hold very different opinions of what Bush et al. have to say about them. I'm glad that's settled, then.

:beer:

Gerry
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Fieldherper
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by Fieldherper »

There are other studies that show that suction devices remove a negligible amount of venom. If you understand how fluid injected into tissue behaves, then you realize that applying suction will not work to remove a clinically relevant amount of venom. Venom is designed to immediately start dissolving tissue, blood vessels, cells, and clotting factors. It works on contact with tissue. Trying to suck out venom that has been injected through different tissue planes from pinhole-sized punctures will not be effective in removing a clinically-relevant amount of venom. Powerful suction applied to the skin can damage tissue and devitalize the skin of it's blood supply in a circumferential distribution thereby increasing the risk of skin necrosis and scarring.

A lymphatic compression dressing (pressure-immobilization bandage) or tourniquet WILL work in preventing or delaying systemic absorption of venom and can delay onset of systemic toxicity, BUT it WILL increase the risk of local tissue damage in the case of necrotizing venoms. A tourniquet will result in SEVERE limb damage and potentially limb LOSS if kept in place for too long. For neurotoxic envenomations (elapids, Mojave A venom, etc...) a pressure-immobilization bandage buys some time to get to definitive care (hospital with antivenom, ability to intubate and mechanically ventilate a patient).

Every snakebite is different. You can have the same snake bite the same person 10 times and each bite would be different. Different volumes of venom, different areas of injection (some closer to blood vessels), different depths of injection, different numbers of fangs penetrating, etc.... Saying that this device "saved the man's life" cannot be proved. You cannot prove a causal relationship in this case.

REMEMBER that in the U.S. every year there are around 6-8000 venomous snake bites and LESS THAN 5 people die (usually around 3) in a given year. Getting to the hospital is the number one priority.

FH
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gbin
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by gbin »

Fieldherper wrote:There are other studies that show that suction devices remove a negligible amount of venom. If you understand how fluid injected into tissue behaves, then you realize that applying suction will not work to remove a clinically relevant amount of venom. Venom is designed to immediately start dissolving tissue, blood vessels, cells, and clotting factors. It works on contact with tissue. Trying to suck out venom that has been injected through different tissue planes from pinhole-sized punctures will not be effective in removing a clinically-relevant amount of venom. Powerful suction applied to the skin can damage tissue and devitalize the skin of it's blood supply in a circumferential distribution thereby increasing the risk of skin necrosis and scarring.
:roll:
gbin wrote:And for those who would like a more thorough and evenhanded treatment of the subject than Bush's clearly limited work and equally clearly prejudiced writing, look through this 3-page FHF thread from not all that long ago:
Suction syringe venom extractors certainly have their detractors, but said detractors don't have anywhere near as much real evidence behind their negative opinion of the devices as they often pretend to...
Gerry
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

Powerful suction applied to the skin can damage tissue and devitalize the skin of it's blood supply in a circumferential distribution thereby increasing the risk of skin necrosis and scarring.
Never thought of that...thanks.
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gbin
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by gbin »

Do yourself a favor, Hans, and check out the link to that thread on this subject from several months ago. The idea that suction syringe venom extractors supposedly cause tissue damage is just one of the things addressed there in a much more thorough and evenhanded way than is being represented here. In particular, there (in stark contrast to here) you can get a good feel for what studies actually show and don't show with respect to the various negative opinions folks are expressing here about the devices as if they were established facts.

Gerry
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Re: "Snakebite kit saves man's life"

Post by hellihooks »

these discussions always come out the same... polar opposite meanings for the words :They suck. :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim
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