Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

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chris_mcmartin
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Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by chris_mcmartin »

A federal jury today found Robroy MacInnes, 54, of Inverness, Fla., and Robert Keszey, 47, of Bushnell, Fla., guilty of conspiracy to traffic in state and federally protected reptiles. MacInnes also was convicted of trafficking in protected timber rattlesnakes in violation of the Lacey Act.

Between 2007 and 2008, the defendants, who own the reptile wholesaler Glades Herp Farm Inc., collected protected snakes from the wild in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, purchased protected eastern timber rattlesnakes that had been illegally collected from the wild in violation of New York law, and transported federally threatened eastern indigo snakes from Florida to Pennsylvania. MacInnes also violated the Lacey Act by purchasing illegal eastern timber rattlesnakes and having the snakes transported from Pennsylvania to Florida. The evidence at trial showed that the protected species were destined for sale at reptile shows in Europe, where a single timber rattlesnake can sell for up to $800. Snakes that were not sold in Europe were sold through the defendants’ business in the United States.

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2013/Nove ... -1225.html
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by Fieldherper »

I am not defending these guys--don't know them. I would like to point out some inconsistencies and ironies, however.

Most of us realize that these guys did nothing to significantly harm the species mentioned. The REAL threats to Timbers and Indigos are habitat destruction, road mortality, intentional killing, and gassing of burrows. Habitat destruction is FAR AND AWAY the biggest threat. Most of these activities continue en masse. Do folks have any idea how much indigo habitat has been lost to agriculture and development???? Folks who intentionally kill rattlesnakes or other snakes are rarely, if ever, held accountable. But catch one and keep it or sell it, and you're in trouble.

I wonder how much federal money was spent on this case from start to finish? How might it have been better utilized to protect these species?

Again, the law is the law, and must be respected and followed. I am not arguing that. I do think that the feds are being disingenuous, however, if they purport that busting a couple of snake dealers will do anything to help these species when they are facing other active threats that are 1000 times worse.

FH
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by Heaven »

I think all the wild herps left in Florida and Pennsylvania for that matter are breathing a sigh of relief.
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by Kevin Messenger »

^^ every little bit helps. If the problem is ignored, then obviously it will just encourage more and more people to attempt such things.

you're right, there are bigger threats out there.
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by regalringneck »

... we can usually count on Chris to link any associated miscellenea, in this case i'll hafta hep ... :}

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14051&start=0

& fwiw, i think this is the 1st time ive ever heard of indigloes being trafficked out of florida.
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by page whatley »

These guys know better, they've been in the business a long time. They run glades herps into the ground they owe people money, and don't give a crap about any snakes status!
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by Jimi »

& fwiw, i think this is the 1st time ive ever heard of indigloes being trafficked out of florida
Yeah, me too. What's interesting is the DoJ announcement does not state they poached wild indigos, rather that they transported some illegally from FL to PA. So they might have taken some cbb's up to Hamburg (I'm guessing...) without their FWS captive-bred indigo permits in-hand. I understand those are a modest hassle to obtain. Not especially cheap and easy, but nothing like, for instance, getting an exotic-venomous permit in California! A modest hassle but totally obtainable if you have an attention span, a little drive, and a modicum of respect for "the system".

The "removal from the wild" thing is specified for some northern timbers, so the fact it isn't specified for the federal-trust-species indigo makes me think "nope, didn't happen". Or at least "nope, not one of the substantiated charges".

When I was working in FL it was often remarked among our (FWC) enforcement officers that illegal harvest - poaching - of wild indigos just didn't seem to be happening any more, and really hadn't in decades. And we had lots of commercial snake collection - perfectly legal, permitted and regulated - out of e.g., the south FL canefields. The collectors, I understand, got a lot of "indigo bycatch" in their carpet sets. But presumably just let the indigos zoom off into the grass, or canal-bank rocks. They certainly weren't known to be bagging any. That would probably have been bad business...perhaps because there's good enforcement of indigo possession laws? And a permit system where people can legally own, buy, and sell captive progeny?

On the other hand, the difference in FWS enforcement of habitat protection was noteworthy between the Vero Beach and Brunswick Field Offices, which have responsibility for indigos in FL and GA respectively. To sum it up, Brunswick appeared to care, and Vero simply didn't. At least when it came to building condos or shopping centers. Maybe they'd metaphorically already had their skulls bashed in by Florida developers and the politicians who service them. That stuff happens, and it isn't pretty or easy to stand up to. At all. I get that.

However, as a state biologist working to conserve and especially, to actively manage, xeric upland habitats (and going through NEPA consultations myself, jumping through FWS hoops trying to get permits to improve habitat), I saw the difference and it didn't sit well with me:

"Wanna pave it? No problem, go to town buddy. Wanna do some mechanical fuel reduction so you can reintroduce fire to the landscape and benefit a whole population? Prove to me you're not going to harm a single one." Yeah, that went down smooth as 24-yr old Scotch.

I'm not saying anything good or bad about Glades. Just commenting on the commentary here, and giving some perspective on indigos and their in-situ conservation.

Cheers,
Jimi
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by regalringneck »

... thnx for that set of pearls, Master J. & my, you have gotten around haven't you ... wish in many ways ida too ... even arizony can get ... well small & zony :p
i smiled too w/ the nepa bullsheet being used to trip up your veg projects, ive had the same joy w/ planning spring exclosures & tinaja projects for anthropogenically isolated bighorns ... aarrrgghh ... & lastly youre right in reading closely & im betting a snitch greased the whole project ... tsk tsk ...
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by Jimi »

you have gotten around haven't you... ... ...im betting a snitch greased the whole project
Yes, I have, life has been good Mr Gunn. Consequently, one of the many unique experiences of my time in FL was actually meeting the guys from GH on several occasions. And of course meeting many folks at shows etc who had done some business with them - trading their litters of babies for store credit, stuff like that. I know those fellas aggravated a lot of people with their hard-nosed business tactics ("buy low, sell high" taken to the limit), so...I wouldn't bet against you - I think there was plenty of motive out there for dropping the proverbial dime. And besides business tactics, I think they just rubbed some people wrong. Herpers are a testy lot...

Sheep are a rewarding but frustrating bunch to work with huh? I hear the pneumonia vaccine is coming along very well. I often think once we get it into service, why don't we just take nature's path of least resistance, go all-in on sheep and elk and let the mule deer get by as best they can without all the trouble and effort. Pure Heresy in some circles I know, but...hey. The future may belong to the grass-eaters.

Cheers,
Jimi
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

I didn't know there was a vaccine in development. I guess the trick will be how to deploy it.

I hope bighorns become as easy to manage as elk. Some places they are but not in my world.
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by Jimi »

Yeah, I ought to ask our sheep coordinator exactly what the status is. And yes I agree - there's a world of difference between drug efficacy in captive trials, and actual, sustained field deployment. Like is it once-in-a-lifetime, a booster now and then, annual dosage (how useless would that be?!?), or what. And can it be maternally-passed to lambs. That sure would help.

No, bighorns are not particularly easy here either. One biggie - way too many pet sheep and goats in the small towns - the wild sheep will often come into town to say hi (they're a lot bolder than many people think). Then there's just random crap. Like, we had a weird thing happen a couple months ago. A truck driver with a load of sheep noticed some sick ones acting funny. He released them (yeah...wow) on the side of the road. We heard about it and checked it out. Uh oh - they were sick sick sick, and some had wandered way off into the hills. That resulted in a big cull of the local bighorns. Anyway, if it wasn't for disease they would be pretty easy to manage, and recover to a much larger fraction of their former range.

Cheers,
Jimi
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

The problem in Nevada is not so much pet sheep and goats but mostly due to overlap between free range domestic sheep used for wool production. Close to 100,000 domestics in Nevada all sharing habitat with bighorns. Even if those sheep are closely herded, inevitably hundreds and hundreds of domestics get left behind each year as strays.

As far as I know, immunity is not passed on from mother to lamb. Low lamb survival is one of the classic post-die-off scenarios. The lambs get the disease from the other surviving bighorns and don't survive. Hence a zero population growth curve. One of the reasons for depopulating bighorns after an pneumonia outbreak is to eliminate disease vectors and start from scratch. Bighorn management in many ways is similar to a put and take fishery.

Bighorns do seem to be naturals at getting into trouble. Its a trait they share with their domestic relatives. Without disease bighorns would be a lot easier to manage for sure. Its funny that 10 years ago, mule deer were the easy species to manage.
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by WSTREPS »

Image

Not to change the subject back to the actual topic. I'm sure many forum readers enjoy the company of sheep but.........

Trafficking indigos out of Florida has resulted in some of the US's most famous wildlife law enforcement cases. This goes back to the 70's.That being said it's something that has to my knowledge for all intensive purposes completely vanished years ago. Sure somebody grabs one here and there and that's about it. Certainly nothing that is jeopardizing the future of the species.There is for all practical purposes no legal way to have one (eastern) in Florida (the exception being a special educational permit ) .

Indigos were placed on the Threatened species list in the 70's without the actual status of the species being known. At a time when actvist groups really began to gain power and influnce laws. A Threatened / Endangered species that was nether. At the time of the listing they were in fact common and still are based on the number of sightings. Any decline the species has suffered is due to localized habbitat loss in various parts of the range. They were placed on this list for the same reason the desert monitors that Donald Schults was arrested for were.The hyped fear of over collection. In the case of the monitors it was for skins, for the indigos it was the live trade. Other reasons are cited but the targeted group was clear. Then or now in both instances there was / is no actual data to support this fear. I'm not saying indigos are not a good candidate for the special protection policies, but a better thought out approach could have been employed.

For as long as I can remember the Florida panther population has been allegedly around a 100 adults. Every year 10 or so adult panthers are killed (mostly by cars) and huge patches of its habitat destroyed. So you have a species requiring large areas of land and having a low (relative to reptiles) reproductive rate with a known 10% loss of its adult population and large sections of habitat destroyed annually. Yet according to the experts its population remains stable. On the other hand you have an equally adaptive species (indigos) needing far less space with a far greater population and having a higher reproductive rate.Whose numbers are supposedly in decline but the species remains widespread thru out much of its historic range. Receiving the same amount of protection as a species with limited range and a fraction of the total number.You have species whose numbers are in the millions listed as threatened or endangered classified with animals who populations might number only a handful.Why (Rhetorical question)?

Endangered, threatened, protection are favorite buzzwords that need no scientific justification or data only the proper publicity to stick. The Endangered Species business is big. The more Endangered Species the more buisness. Wildlife agents scan the internet day and night and work trade shows trying to set people up.They specialize in making a frivolous arrest appear important under the guise of important wildlife protection to justify and increase the budget. It's a complete joke.

More details about the arrest. Compare this to the previously posted article. Look a the time frame and the numbers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... nakes.html

Ernie Eison
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by chris_mcmartin »

WSTREPS wrote:More details about the arrest. Compare this to the previously posted article. Look a the time frame and the numbers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... nakes.html
From the article:
The suspected co-conspirator of the Florida business partners also allegedly agreed to breed two Eastern indigo snakes collected without a permit in New York
NY indigos? Now THAT'S an interesting bit of reporting, or else an amazing new discovery!
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by Jimi »

Hey there EE:
For as long as I can remember the Florida panther population has been allegedly around a 100 adults.
Your memory of the 70's is much better for indigos than for panthers (no surprise there, you're a herper after all). But just to set the story straight - back then the panther population was thought to be maybe 20, and as late as the mid-90's (when management effort really ratcheted up) it was no higher than 30. Now it is probably about 4-5 times that - say between 125 and 150. Whereas indigos, due to massive habitat loss (and basically no active-management effort....), have surely declined A Lot since listing. A Lot.

These recent indigo papers may be of interest. The first is on rangewide distribution, the second about apparent declines right around Cedar Key:
http://www.herpconbio.org/Volume_8/Issu ... l_2013.pdf
http://www.herpconbio.org/Volume_8/Issu ... r_2013.pdf
Yet according to the experts its population remains stable.
True, over about the last decade - and incidentally this has some relevance to the "protection - a flawed strategy" thread elsewhere on FHF. Panthers are believed to be at their ecological carrying capacity within the limited range available to them. The habitat in SW FL is "full up" of panthers. The main source of mortality isn't roadkill any more, it's actually panthers killing panthers. Without more space to occupy, their population isn't going up. But they breed every year so there are plenty of animals that "need to be removed" every year. A little annual mortality isn't going to hurt the population, as long as the overwhelming threats have been abated.
Receiving the same amount of protection
Mmm not exactly. A little "administrivia" - the snake is federal-T, the cat -E. With a T you can get a permit to "harass, kill, etc" (take). Even breed as a hobbyist (falconry, herping, etc). Take permits aren't given out for an E.

More importantly to relative conservation outcomes (one much better off than it used to be, one much worse) - the panther has gotten boatloads of active management attention (land acquisition, habitat management, prey-base management, highway fencing & crossing structures, captive breeding, genetic management, etc etc). (And why not, when there were & still are so very few of them.) But the indigo has been quite neglected - except of course for elimination of trade in wild-caughts, which may or may not have done anything for the species. That, to me, is the interesting comparison - the different conservation outcomes.

Sorry for the off-topic discussions (this is perhaps less offensive than the sheep chat?). I find it instructive - and necessary, due to my job - to think about & track a lot of wildlife topics. There's a lot about herps that is not unique, there are transferable lessons. And some real head-scratchers, like why the gung-ho hands-off with so many species for which there's no evidence such approaches are warranted, helpful, etc?

Cheers,
Jimi
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by BillMcGighan »

Sort of off topic:
Since this conversation skirts around Indigo population changes, you don't have to live around Florida long before you see the development devastation in the central Florida high grounds.



The population reduction in a more northern area, the Osceola National Forest wasn't because of houses, IMHO, so much as the agricultural practice of not leaving stumps when lumber pines were harvested.

Pulp wood is/was a lost cause for the habitat. The obvious destruction after clear-cut of the pulp wood seems/seemed hopeless as the trees are grabbed in a huge claw, incised, stacked, and then the whole area is turned over with a disc for the next crop. This is more akin to clearing a field for a crop.


This was/is bad enough, but the worst to me was when the tall pines were harvested.
Somewhere in the '60s, the turpentine and resin value of the mature stumps was deemed exremely high. After felling a tall straight tree for a telephone pole, for example, the old stump that for years previous was left to rot, was now dug up. In areas where Gopher Tortoise burrows were not common, these stumps provided much opportunity for Indigos (and a million others) to get underground.

This change in forest management, I feel, impacted herps more than we can measure.
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by WSTREPS »

The links posted are old news to me. But thanks. Without nit picking the law analogy I posted for all practical purposes was correct the panther and the indigo get equal amounts of protection in places where their ranges overlap (FLORIDA). Plain and simple get caught fooling with indigos in Florida and your screwed. Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

the panther has gotten boatloads of active management attention (land acquisition, habitat management, prey-base management, highway fencing & crossing structures, captive breeding, genetic management, etc etc). (And why not, when there were & still are so very few of them.) But the indigo has been quite neglected

That's quite a biological contradiction. For starters the indigo has not been neglected. Indigos and panthers share the same environment. Land acquisition, habitat management, also protects the indigos habitat. With habitat loss being far and away the primary issue of concern. Saving the panther habitat is also saving the indigos habitat. It's hands down the most ecologically beneficial thing that can be done for indigos.

It's common sense that where the habitat has been destroyed the indigos have declined. Isn't it? Recently some biologist from Florida Gulf Coast University did a study of old citrus farm .

The study showed a large and thriving indigo population that is growing. Certainly this old orange grove is not the only magical Shangri-La that allows for this. There has been a good deal of habitat loss but there are still huge areas of usable habitat remaining. As one survey puts it " Our efforts to document the current distribution of the Eastern Indigo Snake indicate that it still occurs throughout much of its historical range in Georgia and Florida".

Because a species show a perceived population decline in certain portions of its range under certain conditions does not make it threatened or endangered. Depending on the circumstance a species can sustain what is guessed at as sizeable population loss and still remain strong. This is the case with the indigo.

Reliable survey methods for D. couperi are known only for sites where the species use tortoise burrows in winter (Stevenson et al. 2003). Adequate techniques may not exist for other portions of the range. Wow , that leaves a lot to be desired in terms of the accuracy of any population study involving these animals. Indigos do like tortoise burrows they are easy to find around these places . They also like wood piles, armadillo holes , going down in soft ground, hiding under the front porch and many places where they are very difficult to find.

They use a wide range of habitat across a large range . With even a basic understanding of snake biology . It is not fathomable that a snake species could occupy that much territory utilizing diverse habitats and not have a sizeable population.

As for my memory being skewed because I'm what one person called a HERPER (I never referred to myself as such or ever will). I DID SPEND A GOOD BIT OF TIME WORKING WITH BIG CATS as well as a broad range of other creatures. Fish, birds, mammals. I'm pretty well rounded. Admittedly not sheep. When it comes to that I defer to the expertise of those who do spend time in that area.

I know a couple things about population dynamics, loss and recruit .The numbers I used for the panther scenario were what I felt are the best general numbers to illustrate a point within the context of what was being said. I did not use the low number of 6 or the highest estimate of 360 living or 24 kills. I hope that sets the record straight.There is certainly little doubt the panther population is much higher than what is commonly believed /promoted. It always has been.

This was recently admitted by a couple researchers who did a study on a cattle farm not far from me. The survey revealed a much higher panther density then expected. They estimate the total population to be around 360. I ask why not 250 or 500 ? The methods used to determine panther populations are no more accurate than that used for indigos. Why make any guess at all.For both species much of the population data is via chance encounter. Chance encounters with species who specialize in avoiding chance encounters with potential trouble (humans who move noisily about for example) is about as reliable as wishing on a star.

Why not just say we don't know how many there are and have no accurate way of finding out. Leave it at that. The guess is a very important part of the advertising campaign. That guess is the critical focal point of the whole campaign. With that guess we can make other important guesses.

The panther population has gone up. Naturally this " increase" in the panther population can be attributed to the success of massive conservation efforts surrounding the species. Success based on the increasing number of the population. A number that is based on not knowing how many panthers were there before or how many are there now.

The panther's range is believed to be expanding. Another guess. They have become a nuisance animal for farmers. New legislation is being proposed to pay farmers for the cattle they lose to panthers. The number of road kill panthers is reaching new highs. As already said, In my previous post I used the low ball number of 10 kills along with the most commonly thrown around population number to keep the point simple.

In 2012 I saw it was reported that 17 panthers were struck by cars. This year the number was on pace to exceed that. Human encroachment more roads and highways. More kills. There is no doubt some truth to this. The greater number of cats being killed is a chance indicator that more cats are present. This is automatically used to qualify the huge investment in Panther management. There is never any talk of the very real possibility that the cats might have been present in much greater numbers all along. That the huge investment in Panther management. Has resulted little in terms of increasing the cats population.

When thought about in a critical manner. Given the highly stealthy nature of the cats, the times of their movements (they don't do a lot of running around at rush hour) for this number of animals to be struck by cars out of a population of under 200.Its the equivalent of lightning repeatedly hitting the needle in the haystack. I'm not sure if the annual documented cases of adult panthers killing each other exceeds the new highs for auto mortality. Factor these added deaths in and, There is plenty of room for skepticism.

I'm well aware of all the games that can be played to make the numbers plausible. To make the guesses look realistic. What the researchers want everyone to believe. I have no doubt that many of them truly do believe themselves. Also I'm very aware of how people love to grasp at straws and debate. It's something I have no desire to go round and round with.


All the data that in the end add up to a guess when it comes to the numbers game. Living in panther country I'm always surrounded by panther story's . I also get some info that doesn't make the papers.
I'm certainly not against conservation efforts but I'm certainly not in favor of skewing the truth involved. The lies and as its been so aptly stated before the junk science. Panthers and indigos two of Florida's poster species.

Ernie Eison
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Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by Jimi »

Ernie, we disagree on less than you might think. Not sure why you're all agitated. But there are a few points we can keep discussing:
Plain and simple get caught fooling with indigos in Florida and your screwed. Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations
Yes, because the state manages indigos on a hands-off basis, not because they're federally-listed. I think that's worth pointing out. It's a Lacey because snakes outlawed in 1 state were moved across that state's lines.
That's quite a biological contradiction. For starters the indigo has not been neglected. Indigos and panthers share the same environment. Land acquisition, habitat management, also protects the indigos habitat. With habitat loss being far and away the primary issue of concern. Saving the panther habitat is also saving the indigos habitat. It's hands down the most ecologically beneficial thing that can be done for indigos.
It's a matter of scale. The area of range overlap is small. Yes indigos (& much other wildlife) have benefitted a ton from habitat acquisition and management for panthers, in a few counties in SW FL. The snakes have not benefited much from all the work to reduce cat roadkill, manage cat inbreeding, study cat movement patterns, etc.

Show me land acquisition, land management, etc for indigos. Hell, show me a single development proposal that's been nixed in FL just because of indigos. It doesn't happen because FWS (in Vero Beach FL; not in Brunswick GA) isn't willing to declare a place is occupied habitat and thus developing it would constitute a "take". This is one of the many reasons I say indigos have been neglected, relative to panthers.
As one survey puts it " Our efforts to document the current distribution of the Eastern Indigo Snake indicate that it still occurs throughout much of its historical range in Georgia and Florida".
Again, a matter of scale. Resolution, that us. If the reporting units are counties, sure, they're still in most counties where they're native. What if the reporting unit was 1000-square mile polygons? Or "tiny" polys of just 100 square miles? (About the size of Webb WMA.) What fraction of the historic range would be reported as "still occupied" using a larger number of smaller reporting units? I believe the honest answer is, the answer would change, and it would go down. To illustrate further - flip the problem over and use a single reporting unit - the USA. Has the indigo lost any range whatsoever? No, not at all, because it's still in the USA.

As for old citrus farms, sure they can be great indigo habitat, everyone knows that. They're also great places to build, because the water table is lower than the rest of the landscape, and depth to water is probably the very first consideration for a FL developer. It's never out of their thoughts.
Reliable survey methods for D. couperi are known only for sites where the species use tortoise burrows in winter (Stevenson et al. 2003). ... They also like wood piles, armadillo holes , going down in soft ground, hiding under the front porch and many places where they are very difficult to find.
Depends what you want to know. Things change. We've come a long way with both detector dogs and population statistics. If you want to estimate occupancy, versus say abundance or density or survival or whatever, and thus you only need to find evidence of a single snake, once, hey occupancy is fine. You don't need to catch a bunch of animals, over and over again. One shed or turd or eggshell - or DOR or photo - is enough. Another nice thing about occupancy modeling is you can estimate extinction and colonization probabilities for different habitat patches. Of, for example, different sizes or other qualities.

This "occupancy" approach didn't exist before 2002: http://www.uvm.edu/rsenr/vtcfwru/spread ... season.pdf
For both species much of the population data is via chance encounter.
Whether or not this level or type of data is "good enough" depends on what you're trying to describe or determine. See above regarding occupancy versus e.g. abundance.
All the data that in the end add up to a guess when it comes to the numbers game.
There are guesses, and there are estimates. Behind each estimate there is an estimator - a model. Different types of models have different properties - e.g. sensitivity to violations of embedded assumptions - and require different types of information - survival rates, life span, detection probability, age at first reproduction, number of young produced per repro event, frequency of repro events, how all these things vary randomly and also vary in association with other factors like prey abundance, etc. Lots of that type of work has gone into panthers. Much, much less into indigos. Indigo stuff is way, way more seat-of-the-pants than the panther work, if we're talking "how many are there?" I don't really even like that question, for indigos. Measures like "how much of their former range do they still occupy?" are much more appropriate IMO.



*****************************************************************************************************************************************

Bill -
The population reduction in a more northern area, the Osceola National Forest wasn't because of houses, IMHO, so much as the agricultural practice of not leaving stumps when lumber pines were harvested.

Pulp wood is/was a lost cause for the habitat. The obvious destruction after clear-cut of the pulp wood seems/seemed hopeless as the trees are grabbed in a huge claw, incised, stacked, and then the whole area is turned over with a disc for the next crop. This is more akin to clearing a field for a crop.
Yeah, stumping & pulping has been a bad, bad thing for wildlife, herps being no exception whatsoever. Luckily Osceola is converting a fair amount of their short-rotation, even-age slash pine stands into uneven-age longleaf stands for red-cockeaded woodpecker management. Osceola constitutes a large chunk of the unrealized potential for recovery (ESA-T) of that particular recovery unit. They have been a great partner in the RCW recovery effort. The longleaf is not plowed, the groundcover is restored and burned frequently. If we can get gophers back onto the ridges there in meaningful densities, we could get decent numbers of indigos back too.

Global pulp prices are so bad, relative to prices for sawlogs & pine straw, that I'd be surprised not to see a lot of the small private landowners of the lower coastal plain making the switch from one product stream to the other.

Cheers,
Jimi
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PsychedelicTarantula
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Joined: September 14th, 2011, 3:25 pm
Location: Stuttgart, Arkansas

Re: Glades Herp Owners Guilty--Lacey Act Violations

Post by PsychedelicTarantula »

Wow, all the human trafficking that is going on and they waste money and time on stuff like this.......
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