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 Post subject: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipments
PostPosted: April 7th, 2017, 3:30 pm 
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Today, grammar got the best of the Fish and Wildlife Service.

With a little help from "The Chicago Manual of Style," a federal appeals court found that the grammatical structure of the Lacey Act barred the service from prohibiting the interstate shipment of two dangerous species of snake.

The ruling by a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit affirms a lower-court decision.

"The government's arguments cannot overcome the plain text," Judge Sri Srinivasan, an Obama appointee, wrote for the court.

Judges David Tatel and Robert Wilkins, also both Democratic appointees, joined the opinion.

The case centers on a clause that Congress added to the Lacey Act, a law aimed at wildlife trafficking, as part of a suite of amendments in 1960.

The "shipment clause" states that the Interior Department can prohibit the transportation of injurious species "between the continental United States, the District of Columbia, Hawaii, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any possession of the United States."

Based on that clause, the Fish and Wildlife Service in 2015 banned the transport of the reticulated python and anaconda between states in the continental United States.

The U.S. Association of Reptile Keepers (USARK), whose members breed the snakes, challenged the interpretation, arguing that the clause only bars transport between the listed entities — and not between individual, unnamed states.

The D.C. Circuit heard arguments in April 2016 (E&E News PM, April 1, 2016).

In the opinion today, the D.C. Circuit agreed with USARK, finding that "the government lacks authority under the shipment clause to prohibit shipments of injurious species between the continental States."

That decision is "mandated by the grammatical structure of the statute," Srinivasan wrote for the court.

"The shipment clause is best read — indeed, can only be read — solely to prohibit shipments from one listed jurisdiction to another," he said. "The clause does not speak to shipments within the continental United States itself."

Srinivasan turned to analogies on airline travel and sports, as well as referencing "The Chicago Manual of Style," to take down FWS's interpretation of the clause.

Consider, he wrote, a clause with a parallel structure: "Due to the weather, any flights between California cities and New York are cancelled."

The notice speaks to a "one-to-one relationship" between California cities and New York, he said.

"It communicates that there will be no flights from California cities (collectively) to New York, and vice versa," he said. "It says nothing, however, about the effect of the weather on flights within the first listed item alone — that is, flights between California cities."

And according to the style manual, Srinivasan added, the word "between" has "long been recognized as being perfectly appropriate for more than two objects."

"That is true, for instance, of the following observation: 'There are no games between National Football League teams, Major League Baseball teams, and National Basketball Association teams,'" Srinivasan wrote.

The judge also rejected the government's contention that Congress' decision to use the word "or" in the shipment clause — and not the word "and" — showed it meant to bar interstate shipments.

At most, Srinivasan wrote, the word could be seen to add some ambiguity. But it cannot "bear the specific weight given to it by the government," he said.

Again, he turned to sports: "There are no games between NFL teams or MLB teams" addresses games across leagues, he wrote. "The statement would say nothing about games within each league — i.e., games between one NFL team and another."

Click here to read the court's opinion.
http://www.eenews.net/assets/2017/04/07 ... _pm_01.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 10th, 2017, 9:43 am 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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Interesting, thanks Brian.

I think this is great news. Too bad it's on "a mere technicality" and not the actual merits, but I'll take it.

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 14th, 2017, 3:39 pm 
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Agreed, me too.


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 15th, 2017, 6:13 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 17th, 2017, 6:39 am 

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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 17th, 2017, 9:45 am 
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Quote:
The ruling applies to everything on the Injurious species list, so it's worth looking at what's included. Asian carp, Bsal, and zebra mussels, coming soon to a state near you. USGS Invasive Species Branch Chief Bob Reed


Reed forgot to mention the threat of Burmese python's (Python bivittatus) establishing in San Francisco. This ruling is the direct result of the backlash created by Bob Reed and Gordon Rodda's dirty work. Reed and Rodda were commissioned to throw together a bogus Giant Constrictors Establishment Risk Assessment. The report was a critical part to getting the shipping ban passed in the first place. Reed and Rodda knew exactly what they were doing. They knew exactly what was needed and why. Exactly how their garbage was going to be used. There was absolutely never a reason to ban collectors from owning and shipping python's in the first place. But Reed and Rodda bent over backwards to create one on behalf of their lousy patrons. If Asian carp, Bsal, and zebra mussels are coming soon to a state near you (that's more BS from Reed). Don't blame snake collector's for trying to protect themselves. Blame Bob Reed and his cohorts and all their BS.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 17th, 2017, 5:06 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:30 pm
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Location: St Louis, MO / Hartford, CT
Serious risks can still be banned from importation at any and every state level as needed, so I don't think USFW being forced to enforce the law as written will cause any serious incidents. Salamanders are still banned from importation into the US, so the Bsal risk from Asian and European sources is still being mitigated. Only those salamanders already in the US will continue to be legally traded. Everyone who keeps and breeds salamanders should of course get their existing animals tested.


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 18th, 2017, 6:23 am 

Joined: December 9th, 2010, 9:21 am
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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 18th, 2017, 2:42 pm 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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Yeah Bob, you've got yourself a real toxic enemy there. He hounds you mercilessly, without any apparent boundaries. No fun for you, and I wish the forum were better-moderated. It's super-distasteful to even watch some of the stuff that goes on here (well, mostly used to go on here). Professional herpetologists aren't the only ones who have left.

Speaking of wishes, I wish I knew more about what really went down between FWS and USGS back before the python ban. Ernie's version presumes a level of coordination that I really don't often see in government at any level. I mean, we're talking unicorns here. Not believing in mythical creatures like unicorns or "vast government ability to coordinate", and knowing Gordon's character fairly well, make me highly - no, completely - doubtful of his version of events. Of how we got from point A to point Z.

OTOH I still maintain that the ban on interstate commerce of multiple large constrictors (point Z) was an ill-conceived use of exploratory - not confirmatory - science (the MaxEnt-fueled publication). FWS deserves the blame for the rule and the process used to get there, and thus the enmity of affected stakeholders. I feel that a lot of harm - not collateral damage, but direct harm - was done, for no good reason.

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Serious risks can still be banned from importation at any and every state level as needed

This gives me little comfort. Recall my mythical creature. Imagine, oh, every state but NC or WV successfully preventing Bsal arrival. Sorry, neighbors. See you soon.

FWS does have a legitimate role and responsibility in managing certain threats to US wildlife. And they lack fine-enough tools to do so precisely, in many many cases. So instead they use an old cudgel like Lacey; a hammer, not a scalpel. But unless they can restore and build trust with stakeholders, it's going to be very difficult for them to get statutory remedies to these deficiencies. Which is bad for wildlife. And bad for stakeholders and the states - because FWS is going to have to keep pulling out big blunt tools like Lacey - and ESA - for every job, no matter how coarse or delicate. This is a Catch-22 situation for all concerned - the feds, the states, and the stakeholders. A real bummer.


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 18th, 2017, 3:39 pm 
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Remember all of the professional herpetologists who used to frequent this forum? How many are left? Why do you think they abandoned it?


I don't know, why ? Do tell your theory. Most people aren't very dedicated. They come and go. They jump on the hot band wagon. Their lives change. Whatever...........

The lacy act was abused and misused on behalf of special interest groups and Fish and Wildlife. Bob Reed and Gordon Rodda and all the people that feed off the python nonsense did everything in their power to facilitate this abuse of the law for personal gain. Are you going to try and deny this?

In addition to the ill-fated python ban these same groups along with help from the ever willing USGS, basically raped the law by getting what's known as the CatX enacted. An unprecedented move. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service empowered itself to basically circumvent the correct process applied to the use of the Lacey Act. They could arbitrarily declare “Injurious Wildlife” listings and basically at will create mass listing of species. This ruling certainly has thrown(least for now) a monkey wrench into those dreams. Now come the cry's that this ruling will jeopardize ecosystem's and native wild everywhere. Are you cereal Capt. Crunch? This ruling changes nothing. If you don't have Asian carp and zebra mussels where you already. You never will.

Ernie Eison

PS. No hard feelings Bob. Let me make a suggestion. If your not having much luck with your python traps why don't you try baiting them with Chinese infants ?


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 18th, 2017, 4:26 pm 
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A guy calls because he needs some help with his household of roommates new python. They are all very excited I can hear them in the back ground. They are making a cage and want to get feedback and would I come to see. Sure I would.

I go there its full of people, Im led by the guy that called me to the guy that is the "official" owner of the snake. He's in his mid forties, balding punk and has a methy vibe. He is in the bathroom standing on the toilet with a swiss webster dangling from a string or cord of some kind like from a hoody or sweats waistband. He is dangling the mouse on a string in front of a pretty good sized burm that coiled filled half the floor space of the tub. He is unpenetrable, apparently just wanting to show me how he thought up feeding the snake. He "likes rats" he tells me so he is planning to only feed the python pink eyed albino mice because They have no soul He tells me that he bought the snake from another guy, for $700 (who freakin knows) He said he fed the snake before this way and she ate the whole tray (who freakin knows) I think I blocked out the rest.

I direct my little hints to the guy that called me. Ok now lets see that "cage". In one of the rooms there is a gutted book case with window screens that they took out of the room windows and duct taped to the case. They make sure they tape it well when they put the python back.

The above was recent, last 5 years or so, and not even the worse. I have dozens more.

How lucky you are Ernie to have such a distal connection with what happens to so many burms in the trade. Even in better circumstances its a cramped inert existance.

Im not off topic. Just on another station thats always turned down. Or is that muted nowadays.


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 18th, 2017, 5:32 pm 
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A report was quickly commissioned and compiled by Robert N. Reed and Gordon H. Rodda ( government pest exterminators in charge of snakes) and issued by the USGS for the specific purpose of being used in the court case to add pythons and boas to the Injurious Wildlife List of the Lacey Act.

Giant Constrictors: Biological and Management Profiles and an Establishment Risk assessment for Nine Large Species of Pythons, Anacondas, and the Boa Constrictor

Is a document filled with an extraordinary number of presumptions and speculations, not science. All analyses in this paper are based on hypothesis and estimation supported by a preponderance of qualifying terms that allowed unsupported statements to be made. This document was never meant to be credible science it was a sales pitch designed to persuade legislators and regulators.

Here are the groups involved in the recent ruling. Once again on one side you have UNITED STATES FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE along with the HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE UNITED STATES and THE UNITED STATES CENTER FOR BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY teaming up and armed with the large constrictor Risk assessment supplied by the USGS. On the other side the UNITED STATES ASSOCIATION OF REPTILE KEEPERS, INC., ET .

...................................................................................................................................................
United States Court of Appeals FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
Argued April 1, 2016 Decided April 7, 2017


UNITED STATES ASSOCIATION OF REPTILE KEEPERS, INC., ET AL., APPELLEES

v.

RYAN ZINKE, THE HONORABLE, IN HIS OFFICIAL CAPACITY AS THE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR AND UNITED STATES FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, APPELLANTS

HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE UNITED STATES AND CENTER FOR BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY, APPELLEES
...................................................................................................................................................

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 18th, 2017, 5:54 pm 
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The demand for good science and accountability doesn't extend to the actual fates of the Pythons as Products, that's clear.

Dang I would almost swear something karmic is going on.


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 19th, 2017, 8:13 am 
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The facts behind the ban,

DEAD LEGISLATION (111th Congress 2009-2010):
Senate Bill 373 / ⦁ H.R. 2811 - Python ban companion bills sought to amend the Lacey Act to list all pythons (genus Python) as injurious wildlife. These bills were first amended to include only the nine constrictors proposed by the USFWS, and H.R. 2811 was later further amended to include only Burmese and Northern African Pythons. These bills never became law

Federal Register Report / Vol. 77, No. 14/ Monday, January 23, 2012/Rules and Regulations
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR Fish and Wildlife Service

Injurious Wildlife Species; Listing Three Python Species and One Anaconda Species as Injurious Reptiles

AGENCY: Fish and Wildlife Service, Interior.

ACTION: Final rule.

SUMMARY: SUMMARY: The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) is amending its regulations under the Lacey Act to add Python molurus (which includes Burmese python Python molurus bivittatus and Indian python Python molurus molurus), Northern African python (Python sebae), Southern African python (Python natalensis), and yellow anaconda (Eunectes notaeus) to the list of injurious reptile.

A major source of biological, management, and invasion risk information that we used for the proposed rule and this final rule was derived from the United States Geological Survey’s (USGS) ‘‘Giant Constrictors: Biological and Management Profiles and an Establishment Risk Assessment for Nine Large Species of Pythons, Anacondas, and the Boa Constrictor’’ hereafter referred to as ‘‘Reed and Rodda 2009.’’ This document was prepared at the request of the Service and the National Park Service

Under the Lacey Act, the bureau of the United States Department of the Interior Ken Salazar is authorized to prescribe by regulation those wild mammals, wild birds, fish, mollusks, crustaceans, amphibians, reptiles, and the offspring or eggs of any of the foregoing that are injurious to human beings, The USGS is a bureau of the United States Department of the Interior(Ken Salazar ); it is that department's sole scientific agency.

The ban was anouced via a press conference in the Everglades held by U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Director Dan Ashe and KEN SALAZAR 01/17/2012.
The ban, Interior Secretary Ken Salazar said, would last “forever“

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 19th, 2017, 1:19 pm 
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I wish we had better moderation too. I'm supposedly a moderator on the Rocky Mountain forum but I have no actual tools to moderate. The personal attacks from Ernie just aren't fun and don't add anything to the forum.

I actually wonder if this decision will get congress to amend the Lacey Act? A lot of states aren't going to appreciate their neighbors allowing potentially injurous wildlife.


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 19th, 2017, 2:37 pm 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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A worthy tasking, but without the tools? Sounds like work...

"Get Congress to...". Hmm. Yeah. Tough times, these. "Potentially" is a tough sell, too. I mean, we have all kinds of things that are actually terrible, right now, that Congress is quite able to avoid doing anything about. And then there are things that don't even exist, that they are quite able to throw lots of time and money at. They have certainly earned their 17% approval rating.

Funny thing about the states, what they want, how they get along or don't, etc. Seems they want to have the benefits of some higher power without actually yielding to it. They mainly appear to just want that other power to whack on their neighbors, whenever the neighbors get pesky.

It's just human nature scaled up from the individual to the collective, I guess...which sort of makes sense, even if it's frustrating as hell. "If it's not on fire, don't mess with it. Even if it's smoking, and very very warm." Gotta laugh to keep from crying.

Got much snake movement over there yet? We flipped a few fossorials this weekend, got a couple DOR gophers and a live patchnose. Otherwise, gorgeous weather, no snakes. Too early still around Caliente. Maybe another week or two? NICE country around there, I see why you love it.

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 19th, 2017, 4:40 pm 
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Yeah wishful thinking about Congress. Especially passing something as comprehensive as the Lacey act....

Not much movement but tons of activity at some of the lower elevations dens. I did see my first Great Basin Diadophis last week at a den. I'll try to send an e-mail with pictures or post on the forum. Time feels scarce these days. Some movement away from the dens but once temps hit 80 there should be a lot of movement.


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 21st, 2017, 10:47 am 
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Shamefully harder and stronger attacks on innocent reptile keeper's are in the works by the same core groups exposed here. A plan to amend the Lacey Act would not be a bad idea if it were handled correctly and without bias. To do it properly, The first step would be that what is listed must be carefully reviewed and scrutinized. Certainly the constrictors that were wrongfully added to the list must be removed based on the following,

As the iron clad evidence shows. These species were wrongfully added due to an extraordinary degree of bias and unfounded speculation on the part of the Fish and Wildlife Service and USGS scientist. The Giant constrictor Establishment Risk Assessment ‘‘Reed and Rodda 2009’’ has been indisputably proven to be the foundation of the inclusion of large constrictors to the injurious species list of the Lacy Act. It was improper to base legislation of any sort on this report. This report, its authors and the department that employs them, the Invasive Species Program of United States Geological Survey are not impartial.

The ‘‘Reed and Rodda 2009’’ Risk assessment. Must now be considered passé due to its many flaws and the use of placing highly biased filters on data to create a skewed profile based on the most extreme and aberrant values known for each species. The ‘‘Reed and Rodda 2009’’ Risk assessment is without question an unreliable source for truthful and objective risk analysis. There is no doubt that a new and proper constrictor risk assessment should be compiled by an impartial panel of scientists and erected in its place.

Ernie Eison

About moderation and personal attacks. No one on this forum has been subjected to more personal attacks then myself. Everything from insults directed at my family to threats of legal action and everything in-between. Not surprisingly many of the personal attacks against myself have emanated from those who ether work for or have a direct association with the USGS. Generally these personal attacks focus predominantly on character assignation and are devoid of factual content. Not only on this forum but in society as a whole those who want more" moderation " are those who only want their opinion's heard.


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 22nd, 2017, 5:58 am 
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Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
Is Ernie an actual person, or just a troll poster?


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 22nd, 2017, 7:44 am 

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Hi Martti, nice to hear from you again. I hope spring in Finland is coming along nicely. See any adders yet? Are you guys typically as early as over in Norway? The March adders there always impress me.

This article on the perils of user-friendly modeling software might well interest some people:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3036589/

Quote:
Is Ernie an actual person, or just a troll poster?

He's an actual person. I have met him, long ago, at a reptile show in Florida. One of the Daytona venomous shows in the early "oughts". We talked for a bit about Bothriechis lateralis, of which I had about 8 of various ages and bloodlines at the time, and he had a young female for sale at what I thought was a quite reasonable price, for the time ($225). (I did not buy her - and we have never done business or since spoken.) He wasn't gouging, which I respected. He did seem a little introverted, and fairly bored with the whole herp-show thing, and maybe a little grumpy - but yes he is a real person.

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As the iron clad evidence shows.

This concept is continuously invoked, but never brought to fruition. Where is this evidence??? All I see is serial histrionics.

Quote:
A plan to amend the Lacey Act would not be a bad idea if it were handled correctly and without bias.

Legislation without bias is a ridiculous concept. The trick is to try and balance competing interests (biases) such that nobody is made a complete and implacable loser. That was the tragedy of the first injurious listing of the big snakes - herpers had a turd shoved down their throats, and have been mad as hell ever since. Pulling off a win-lose is NOT how you get an enduring outcome. So here we are...much worse off than before, what with Bsal etc etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Court lectures FWS on grammar, lifts ban on snake shipme
PostPosted: April 22nd, 2017, 10:06 pm 
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Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
Jimi wrote:
Hi Martti, nice to hear from you again. I hope spring in Finland is coming along nicely. See any adders yet? Are you guys typically as early as over in Norway? The March adders there always impress me.

This article on the perils of user-friendly modeling software might well interest some people:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3036589/


Thanks, jimi. I visit occasionally, just haven't got anything to contribute to the forum atm. I'll leave that to Thor, the norwegian. The adders are out, but I haven't been to see them. A sensitive time of years, so letting them do their thing.

Spring in Central Finland is nuts this year. A fellow herpetologist (forum member?) clocked the first adders on some sunny days in late March. Then it turned. Beautiful and sunny at the moment, but it may rain/sleet/snow at any time. Temperatures are fluctuating between -4 and +6 degrees C.

Regarding Ernie. His posts make this forum more readable.


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