Decent Camera on a budget?

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Dalton Lund
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Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

I've been looking around at getting a better camera, looking for somewhere around 150 dollars. Really low as far as cameras go I know, I can't afford a nice DSLR at the moment, possibly down the road, but basically want something that can shoot some nice photos, mainly of herps, at relatively close range. The Nikon S3300 looks to be pretty good, but I am a serious newbie when it comes to cameras. Anyone have any opinions/suggestions/general information? Thanks for you time.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Soopaman »

It's a little over your price, but I have a sony cybershot DSC-WX9 and I use it for all of my photography. I bought it last year for $230 or so, however I do believe it was on sale at the time.

It takes EXCELLENT close range photography (1-2feet from subject). However, I feel it leaves a lot to be desiered when photographing anything further away, with the exception of landscape shots when you aren't trying to focus on one specific subject. I do have to take a lot of photos, as it is not always smart enough to recognize what I want the focus on. I can give photo examples if you like.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by soulsurvivor »

I love the Fuji Finepix line. Great little cameras and not too expensive. Indoor photos kinda suck (grainy), not gonna lie. But outdoor reptile photos have been great, including macro shots. I recommend investigating the different models on Amazon. You can check out honest reviews there as well.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

Thanks for the responses :)

I haven't looked at the fuji cameras yet, actually totally forgot about the brand. The sony line has caught my attention, I was actually looking at them 10 minutes ago. I'm thinking if I can gather the money and whatnot that may be the way to go. If you wouldn't mind showing some of your better/favorite pics I would be super appreciative, I'm concerned with photo quality the most. Thanks for the help!
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Soopaman »

Dalton Lund wrote:Thanks for the responses :)

I haven't looked at the fuji cameras yet, actually totally forgot about the brand. The sony line has caught my attention, I was actually looking at them 10 minutes ago. I'm thinking if I can gather the money and whatnot that may be the way to go. If you wouldn't mind showing some of your better/favorite pics I would be super appreciative, I'm concerned with photo quality the most. Thanks for the help!
This is not a favorite picture by any means (can't see the whole snake!) but it does show the high level of detail you can get for macro shots.
Image
Coluber constrictor etheridgei (Tan Racer) by Kyle L.E., on Flickr
This is also a good macro, the salamander here is about an inch and a half long:
Image
Eurycea quadridigitata (Dwarf Salamander) by Kyle L.E., on Flickr

This is a good example of a decent landscape shot, I don't feel it captured the essence of the lighting here just after a rain, but it turned out pretty nice (there was a better opportunity for a shot previous to this but a car was coming and I moved on down the road):
Image
Coachwhip Habitat by Kyle L.E., on Flickr


However, intermediate distances is where the camera fails, in my opinion. Here is a shot of my first timber rattlesnake I found a couple of days ago. This wasn't the best shot, but it does show how it gets harder to focus on a subject as you get further away. I was about 2-2.5ft away from him at this point:
Image
Crotalus horridus (Timber Rattlesnake) by Kyle L.E., on Flickr

This is the best shot of the bunch as far as clarity, and it's about the same distance away as the last shot:
Image
Crotalus horridus (Timber Rattlesnake) by Kyle L.E., on Flickr


Here's an example of a shot at night with flash, I think it leaves a lot to be desired. I'm thinking about trying to rig a soft overhead light set up for photographs in the evening, because I really think the shots with flash on this camera are terrible (this one actually turned out okay:
Image
Pantherophis slowinskii (Slowinksi's Corn Snake) by Kyle L.E., on Flickr
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Soopaman »

Feel free to browse through the flickr photos, all of the photographs there are taken with the Sony Cybershot DSC-WX9.
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Dalton Lund
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

Wow, those are some great pictures. I'm by no means a photographer, and most of my shots are going to be macro, so I think I may be on the right track, thanks a ton :D
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by soulsurvivor »

I like taking macro photos, as well. I bought a cheap macro lens attachment for my Fuji Finepix s700, and have been really pleased with the results. I took this photo the other night with this set up:
Image
Porch Toad by soulsurvivor08, on Flickr

This is an example of a zoomed in macro shot without the macro lens:
Image
alligator lizard by soulsurvivor08, on Flickr

My camera is several years old now and only 7mp. Fuji has put out several improved models in the S-series since I bought mine, and the line really isn't that expensive. Like I said, Amazon is probably your best bet, for any brand you decide on. Good luck! I'm hoping to upgrade my camera soon, too. :)
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

The fuji's seem to be really nice, a little above my pricepoint, but still do-able. The pictures came out great by the way. Are they considered an SLR?
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Soopaman »

I should also mention that the digital zoom on my camera is awful, don't expect to try to take any more than a cell-phone quality voucher photo if you try to zoom in on a subject.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

Got it. Just a few newbie questions really quick, What is the definition of ISO/and what it does at far as settings go? And what would the advantages/disadvantages of quicker/slower shutter speed be? Sorry for all the questions, photography is a definite learning curve for me.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by soulsurvivor »

My Fuji is not an SLR, but they are as close to an SLR as you can get.....at least that's what Fuji says. :lol:
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Kevin Price »

Got it. Just a few newbie questions really quick, What is the definition of ISO/and what it does at far as settings go? And what would the advantages/disadvantages of quicker/slower shutter speed be? Sorry for all the questions, photography is a definite learning curve for me.
ISO stands for International Standards Organization. ISO refers to the light sensitivity of the sensor. In the days of film it was referred to as ASA and was the films "speed". It is directly related to both the aperture and the shutter speed. The lower the ISO number, the better the quality of the image. In order to shoot a subject at a higher shutter speed with the same aperture setting and ambient light, you would raise the ISO to a higher number; say from 200 to 400. There is a point where higher ISO settings will be detrimental. High ISO numbers mean the sensor will be more sensitive to light, and it will take less time to get the right exposure. The downside is that the image may be very grainy. The important thing to remember with ISO is that it relates to both the aperture and the shutter speed. For the best quality image, always shoot with the lowest ISO you can. If the scene is such that you can’t shoot at a shutter speed you want, you’re options are to raise the ISO or to add additional lighting such as flash.

As for quicker/slower shutter speeds; if you use a tripod for every shot you could shoot at any shutter speed you want at the lowest ISO. It’s a fair assumption that you shoot while holding the camera in your hand, and that can lead to blurry images due to it being impossible to hold the camera perfectly still for slow shutter speeds. The faster the shutter speed the less likely you’ll get motion blur from holding the camera. This is where ISO comes in. If the shutter speed is too slow to handhold the camera, say 1/30 second, increase the ISO to get a higher shutter speed of 1/160 second or so. That will greatly reduce motion blur, but the downside is the image may show unwanted graininess.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

Alright, that helped a lot, thanks for the info. Do most cameras have ISO adjustments, even point and shoots?
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Kevin Price »

That all depends on the camera. Point and shoot cameras are usually more limited on the availability of manual settings. The ISO setting will probably be in a sub menu in "shooting" mode or something similar. The default setting will probably be Auto, but it may allow for changes.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

Got it. Thanks again for the info.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by chrish »

One other thing to watch for in Point and Shoot type camera is the pixel density. If you have a small sensor in a camera and pack a lot of pixels close together, the pixels (light sensors) can interfere with each other during the shot and cause false data to be read by neighboring pixels. This comes out on the image as "noise" which degrades the image. You can often see noise as little random colored dots in areas that are supposed to be uniformly colored. It shows up more in darker areas of the image.

Here's an example of noise that I accidentally shot last week. Ignore the lousy photo, just look at the noise in the background. These two photos were taken a few seconds apart and are identical crops and were treated identically in Lightroom. The first one is really noisy because I shot it at ISO 1600, the second was taken about 10 seconds later when I realized my mistake and turned the ISO back down to 200.

Noisy
Image

Less noisy
Image

The problem that you see when looking at cameras is that camera manufacturers are trying to create what the public thinks they want, tiny pocket-sized cameras with as huge numbers of megapixels. This means they have to have tiny sensors with lots of pixels crammed closer and closer together.

For example, consider two 16MP Canon cameras:
Canon Powershot A4000IS has 16MP on a sensor that is 6.17 x 4.55 mm (28 square millimeters) or 571,428 pixels per square millimeter.
Canon EOS-1D Mark IV has 16MP on its sensor which is 27.9 x 18.6 mm (518 square millimeters) or 30,888 pixels per square millimeter (almost 20x less densely packed)

The result is that the Mark IV produces almost noise-free shots at ISO levels of 3200 or even higher while the Powershot photos would be visibly noisy at ISO 400.

So when comparing cameras, consider this variable. It can make a difference in how clear your pictures are and what ISOs you end up comfortable using.

I'm not suggesting you need a $4000 camera to avoid this problem, just that if you have two similar models of a particular camera and one has 12MP on a particular sized sensor and the other has tried to cram 16MP on the same sensor, the 12MP camera might give better results.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

Alright, I've always been under the impression that the more megapixels the better, obviously I'm not very educated lol. Thanks for the info, that explains basically all of the terminology I've been coming across that I had no idea what it meant, thanks again :D
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by soulsurvivor »

Thanks for that info, Chris. I had no idea about the mp's and the sensor size relating to each other like that. That will definitely help me pick a better camera!
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by chrish »

soulsurvivor wrote:Thanks for that info, Chris. I had no idea about the mp's and the sensor size relating to each other like that. That will definitely help me pick a better camera!
Be aware, however, that some camera manufacturers are better than others than reducing this sort of noise. Always check some example photos. Dpreview is an excellent source to check out image quality since they post a review where you can compare image quality between different cameras.
Nikon has always done a good job with their CCDs in this regard, although I think they are now going to CMOS sensors which produce less noise anyway.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by RobertH »

My son Nicholas (now 10) used to shoot with a Fujifilm 1500 S P&S camera that I bought for about $140 two years ago. For the money, it offers a lot of features, including 12x zoom and macro. It's also very rugged, as even mys son has not been able to break it. That says a lot :lol:

Here are some shots taken with the 1500 S, which has since been replaced by very similar, but even more powerful (stronger zoom) models:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Most of these were taken either with a lot of zoom or macro, meaning that the camera was operating at the outside of the envelope. For a camera under $200, that's pretty amazing, I think.

Another thing that Nicholas liked about the Fujifilm S series is that they have the basic shape of a DSLR, though they are much smaller, of course. That means they can easily be held in one hand, they have a viewfinder in addition to just a monitor (which is hard to see in bright sunlight on most cameras), and they overall FEEL like a substantial camera, rather than a like a cell phone or calculator.

The only drawback of the Fujifilm S series is that they only run on AA batteries, i.e., no charger. But if you are not taking hundreds of shots all the time (Nicholas took about 6000 shots in a year's time :shock: ), that may not be an issue. You can take about 350 shots or so, more if you don't use flash much, with one set of batteries.

Having said all that, you should know that it really doesn't matter much which P&S you get. There is a guy, Porter, on the CA forum, who takes pictures with a $100 Samsung P&S that you would swear were taken with a DSLR. He's just that good. I am afraid that when he gets his first DSLR, which will be soon, the rest of us photographers can all pack up and go home :lol: The point is, the camera is not really the limiting factor, the photographer is.

EDIT: Here's one Fujifilm model currently available for $160 that is along the same lines as the old S 1500, though even more powerful:

http://www.amazon.com/Fujifilm-FinePix- ... B004HO58NO

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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by soulsurvivor »

I actually like the fact that most Fuji's run on AA's. That means I can carry extras and not have to invest in an extra camera battery to tote along. But there are some Fuji's with batteries you can charge, just FYI.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

I think I'm gonna go with that S series that you linked, it's a very reasonable price and exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks for the posts guys :D
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by RobertH »

Great, sounds like you're all set then. :)

Let us know how you like the camera, once you get a feel for it. Your review would be helpful to others.

Robert
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

Will do. :D
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

Alright, I'm going to go ahead and sound stupid again, would anyone wanna explain aperture to me? The S2950 has an aperture priority mode, allowing you to control the aperture. It also had a manual mode, which allows you to control the shutter speed and aperture, how do they work together?
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by RobertH »

Aperture priority means that you select the aperture and the camera then selects the shutter speed providing the correct exposure.

Shutter speed priority works the other way around. You select a shutter speed, the camera selects the appropriate aperture.

In manual mode, you select both the aperture and shutter speed.

So there are three different shooting modes. Which one you use will depend on what you are trying to do - and able to do. Generally speaking, you'll want to use aperture priority mode when you are trying to control what is called "depth of field", and you'll want to use shutter priority mode when you are trying to prevent - or produce - blur from movement of the camera or the subject. At the beginning, you may not want to use manual mode because it requires a more thorough understanding of the interplay between aperture and shutter speed. In other words, you may not be able to get good results in manual mode at first, at least not reliably.

I suggest you start in auto mode and familiarize with the operation and features of the camera for the first week or so. Next, try shooting in aperture priority mode. Some important things to know here are:

1) A larger f-stop number (e.g., 16, 22 ) actually means a smaller aperture, meaning less light is admitted and a longer shutter speed is required for proper exposure, and vice versa.
2) The smaller the aperture (and larger the f-stop number), the longer the shutter speed required for proper exposure, and vice versa.
3) The slower the shutter speed, the more movement (including camera shake) will show up in the picture as blur.
4) The smaller the aperture (and larger the f-stop number), the greater the so-called depth of field, i.e., the three dimensional area across which the image will be in focus.

To understand these concepts, you'll probably have to find some online tutorial. I would think that Youtube has some appropriate videos along those lines. Once you understand the above relationships, you will also know how and when to use shutter priority mode. It's really not as hard as it may sound at first. If my 10-year old son can understand it, so can you. ;)

Well, now I am really looking forward to seeing some pictures taken with the 2950. Be sure to post some once you've got the basics figured out.

Robert
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by chrish »

You might want to do a little comparison shopping before you jump in with the Fuji. The review I found of its predecessor (Fujifilm HS-2500D) ranked it in the bottom of its class of cameras in image quality for when used outdoors, in low light, or with flash. It was the lowest ranked of the 9 similar models they tested.

The reviews felt the Nikon P100 and Canon SX20 and Panasonic FZ35 were the best cameras in this class. Mind you these camera are more expensive than the Fuji.

In case you want to see it, the review I read was at a very objective and professional site - Dpreview.com - http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Q110superzoomgroup
I trust their reviews because they not only post their review, the post their photos for you to compare.

CNET didn't really rave about it either - http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-cameras ... 68871.html

There is a decent review of its predecessor here - http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/ ... hd_review/

I have no dog in this fight, but if I was shopping for that camera at this time, I might be inclined to at least find out what its competitors are and how the image quality and featuers of those compare. It appears there are few contenders in this price range, but I would shop carefully. You might be able to pick up a used DSLR with a kit lens for around this price range and end up with a lot more camera for your money.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by RobertH »

Chris is right, the image quality of the Fujifilm cannot compete with that of the Nikon P100, Canon SX20 or Panasonic FZ35.

However, these other cameras aren't just a little more expensive than the Fujifilm - they cost $398, $549 and $454, respectively. Even the cheapest of them, the Nikon P100, costs more than twice as much. It so happens that the Nikon P100 is what I shoot myself, and I can tell you that, yes, the image quality is better than that of the S1500, but not by all that much. In fact, in macro mode the Fujifilm does a better job. And, chances are that the S2950 will offer a bit better IQ than the old S1500 (which was discontinued two years ago).

So, yes, by all means, go out and compare. But don't compare apples and oranges. I also note that the S2950 receives a 4-star rating on Amazon. While that says little about IQ, it shows that, overall, people are happy with the camera. Most of them are first-time buyers like yourself, and by their standards the camera does a good job.

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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by soulsurvivor »

My Fuji takes grainy indoor photos, and poor low light photos. However, outdoor shots with good natural light, and macro shots with the aid of my macro lens and flash diffuser, come out great. Fuji's are not going to be the best camera you can get, but sometimes you just have to work with what you can afford. Sad but true.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

Yup. Sadly I may be forced to go with the fuji due to cost, It'll work for a starter until I can save up enough for a DSLR, possibly a Rebel TSi 3.....that's a ways away though. Anywho, thanks for the opinions/information/overall support, I appreciate it.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Erik Williams »

what about a used fleabay camera? I always liked the sony line before I went to DSLR. they even made brown snakes look good. (sony H5. No idea what the going rate is now, but I paid about $350 new) Or, consider an older DSLR. You can get into canon gear for a couple hundred bucks - older body and a nifty fifty.

Image
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

I've been searching craigslist for a used DSLR, can't find any for less than three hundred though ):
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

Okay, I hate to be a huge pain, but I need a redo.

I may be adding another 100 dollars or so to the budget, bringing it to around 250. Opens up a lot of windows for superzooms, but not enough for a used DSLR with a macro lens. Anyone have any favorites or input? Sorry, I know everyone just shared everything they knew about 150 dollar cameras, and now I'm changing it D:
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Soopaman »

The one I mentioned (Sony Cybershot DSC-WX9) is around $200.

Here's a couple more shots from it:
Image
Pantherophis obsoletus lindheimeri (Texas Rat Snake) by Kyle L.E., on Flickr
Image
Agkistrodon piscivorous leucostoma (Western Cottonmouth) by Kyle L.E., on Flickr
Image
Agkistrodon piscivorous leucostoma (Western Cottonmouth) by Kyle L.E., on Flickr


I think you'd have a hard time telling the difference between those and one taken with a cheap low end DSLR ;)
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

Awesome rat snake shot, love it. Thanks for them.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

I'm torn, I think 250-300 would be enough for a used DSLR, but from what I've read, glass is way more important than the camera itself, are kit lenses okay to use for starting? I know little to nothing about differences in lenses, online reading is helping a great deal with that, as well as old threads here, but anywho, other than craigslist, where else should I be looking for used cameras?
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by justinm »

You shouldn't even be considering an SLR and having only a few hundred. There are some capable cameras for that range. Learn what you need to from one, then when you outgrow it... Start looking for a DSLR, when you can afford the glass and accessories.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

Got it
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by RobertH »

I think it's a good idea for you to invest in a DSLR. I was going to suggest a used DSLR at the beginning, but didn't want to muddy the waters since you had asked for advice about P&S and had a very limited budget.

In my neck of the woods (Los Angeles), Craigslist has a quite a few Canon Rebels for sale for around $250, some of them as low as $80. If you have less options on Craigslist in RI, that's probably just because it's a smaller market. You may just need to wait a little longer to find a camera that's priced for you. But it seems like your price range, $250, is very doable.

Keep in mind that a basic DSLR will come with just a kit lens, like a 18-55mm. Most of these are perfectly fine for herp photography, but they don't give you much zoom capacity. In other words, you probably will want to invest in a zoom lens, like a 70-300mm. The cheapest way to do this would be to buy the camera, kit lens and zoom lens a a used set.

Finally, don't get too fixated on any particular brand. Canon and Nikon seem to be the most popular, but there are other brands out there, most notably Sony, that make excellent products, as well.

Robert
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

There is a few Canon Xs'/20D/30D/XTi on craigslist, anywhere from 250-500, but Most of them as you stated have the kit lens, which I am totally fine with using, I just wanted to make sure it was okay for herp photography. Nikons seem to be more expensive, but from what I've read there is a lot of canon guys. Thanks for the input, and I think DSLR would be a way to go. Time to wait for cash, and scour the internet for info.
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Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by chrish »

Keep in mind that a used entry level DSLR with a kit lens will produce results that are on par with a similarly priced DSLR. Also, a DSLR will have a more powerful flash than most $200 point and shoots. And if you buy a DSLR with a kit lens, you can upgrade later to a macro lens, longer zoom, etc.

If you are going to take this approach, I would keep in mind that the Nikon kit lens is generally regarded as a better lens than the Canon version so if you have a choice where that is the only difference, I would go Nikon. I don't know where the Sony kit lens fits in this comparison (even though I own two of them. :oops: ).
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Dalton Lund
Posts: 176
Joined: March 26th, 2012, 11:33 am
Location: Hamblen County, TN

Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Dalton Lund »

I've found a few nikons, but a lot more canons, and I seem to be partial to canon's for some reason, I have no reason to be, but I've found a lot of XS's right in my price range. I'm almost positive that I'm going the used DSLR route, mainly because its not a one time buy, I can always expand on the platform, and I'll be getting a DSLR eventually anyway, so why drop 250 on a P&S that I'm going to outgrow in a while. I'll be searchign the craigslist and whatnot for a while, and as soon I find something and have the cash in hand, I will be double checking with you guys. Thanks again for all of the input/advice.

Edit: What should I be looking at as far as memory cards go? Does class matter in stills as much as it does in video?
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Viperidae
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Joined: June 24th, 2012, 11:07 am
Location: Nepal

Re: Decent Camera on a budget?

Post by Viperidae »

Soopaman wrote:It's a little over your price, but I have a sony cybershot DSC-WX9 and I use it for all of my photography.
Hi Soopaman! I'm pretty new to this forum and even photography! I do have a sony cybershot, model DSC-W200. So, how could I snap better pictures of herps? Would you help me? Plus could you provide some suggestions while editing pictures?? Love to hear from you!
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