Colour rendition - camera settings & editing - help, please.

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krismunk
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Colour rendition - camera settings & editing - help, please.

Post by krismunk »

Not a serious photographer, by and large I'm happy with my camera, a Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ35. One of the main issues I do have is in regards to color rendition, particularly greens. Most of the time I don't really mind but there is one subject in relation to which it really bugs me, male Lacerta agilis in breeding colors. I have photos of dozens of these and not one that I am pleased with, simply because their brilliant green always comes out way too yellow and dull. I rarely try to fix colors editing afterwards, partly because it just feels wrong, as I always worry that I am really altering the photo to fit in with reality as I would have liked it to have been and have perhaps deceived myself it was, partly because I haven't been pleased with the results when I have tried. Hence I have little experience with and understanding of my editing tools. I have tried but if I finally come close to getting the greens right, everything else looks wrong and manipulated. I nearly always shoot on auto settings btw, when I try anything else I don't understand what I'm doing and results aren't any better.

Anyone have any tips for me, with the camera or the editing tools?

A couple of random examples from last month, straight from the camera - and yes, I know these have several other equally significant flaws but that's beside the point ;-)

#1 - color as good as it gets - still bad:
Image

#2 - egad! (happens often :( ):
Image
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chrish
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Re: Colour rendition - camera settings & editing - help, ple

Post by chrish »

This has come up here before. Green seems to be a difficult color to capture accurately on digital sensors. I don't know what the answer is, but it is a common problem.
MonarchzMan
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Re: Colour rendition - camera settings & editing - help, ple

Post by MonarchzMan »

You might, at minimum, look into a gray card. That will help you set your white balance in the camera. I personally have an X-rite Passport Color Checker, which has a Lightroom plugin to create profiles specific to camera, lens, and lighting conditions to help get the proper colors. In general, I'm quite pleased with the results from it. But it may be more than you're looking to spend. A gray card shouldn't set you back more than $10 or so.
bgorum
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Re: Colour rendition - camera settings & editing - help, ple

Post by bgorum »

krismunk wrote:Not a serious photographer, by and large I'm happy with my camera, a Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ35. One of the main issues I do have is in regards to color rendition, particularly greens. Most of the time I don't really mind but there is one subject in relation to which it really bugs me, male Lacerta agilis in breeding colors. I have photos of dozens of these and not one that I am pleased with, simply because their brilliant green always comes out way too yellow and dull.
Where I live this is a frequent problem with male Banded Rock Rattlesnakes. There have even been threads on the forum where some members claim they are not green at all, (and in fact not all are). That our eyes just somehow fool us into believing they are green. Prairie Rattlesnakes and Black-tailed Rattlesnakes can also occasionally be green and they also are hard to get the right color with. The best I've been able to do is shoot in RAW, then play carefully with color balance, hue, saturation (on different color channels), and vibrance. Its not easy and often getting the snake right will throw off the rest of the picture. Which brings me to a second point-
krismunk wrote:I rarely try to fix colors editing afterwards, partly because it just feels wrong, as I always worry that I am really altering the photo to fit in with reality as I would have liked it to have been and have perhaps deceived myself it was, partly because I haven't been pleased with the results when I have tried.
Not fixing colors in your photograph is no more reality than fixing them is. If you shoot jpegs your camera is already set to give the pictures a particular color balance, saturation, etc. Same is true if you shoot RAW, then import them into any software program using some predetermined, (like default), settings. You have to edit the color. The camera and the software don't know whats best for each picture. Don't be afraid of your subjective recollection of the scene. It is certainly at least as valid as some arbitrary bank of image settings applied by the camera or software.

Not being familiar with this species its hard for me to say much about how successful or not you've been matching their true color. Keep plugging away at it and try playing with the settings I mentioned above. Hopefully you'll get results you're happy with eventually.
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krismunk
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Re: Colour rendition - camera settings & editing - help, ple

Post by krismunk »

Thanks for the tips :)
MonarchzMan wrote:You might, at minimum, look into a gray card. That will help you set your white balance in the camera. I personally have an X-rite Passport Color Checker, which has a Lightroom plugin to create profiles specific to camera, lens, and lighting conditions to help get the proper colors. In general, I'm quite pleased with the results from it. But it may be more than you're looking to spend. A gray card shouldn't set you back more than $10 or so.
I'll check out both options - have no idea how any of it works
bgorum wrote:The best I've been able to do is shoot in RAW, then play carefully with color balance, hue, saturation (on different color channels), and vibrance. Its not easy and often getting the snake right will throw off the rest of the picture. Which brings me to a second point-
krismunk wrote:I rarely try to fix colors editing afterwards, partly because it just feels wrong, as I always worry that I am really altering the photo to fit in with reality as I would have liked it to have been and have perhaps deceived myself it was, partly because I haven't been pleased with the results when I have tried.
Not fixing colors in your photograph is no more reality than fixing them is. If you shoot jpegs your camera is already set to give the pictures a particular color balance, saturation, etc. Same is true if you shoot RAW, then import them into any software program using some predetermined, (like default), settings. You have to edit the color. The camera and the software don't know whats best for each picture. Don't be afraid of your subjective recollection of the scene. It is certainly at least as valid as some arbitrary bank of image settings applied by the camera or software.
I guess I kind of knew that already so to some degree the statement you quoted was just a bad excuse because I simply can't seem to muster the patience and hoped for someone to provide me with the magic shortcut answer :oops:
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Kevin Price
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Re: Colour rendition - camera settings & editing - help, ple

Post by Kevin Price »

I use this:

Image

It's the size of a credit card and I carry it everywhere. I just shoot it either before I start shooting my subject or right after, as long as you shoot it in the same light; shade, partial shade, direct sun, flash, and so on. The markings on it, especially the registration mark in the center, allows the camera to autofocus on it. Back home I just use the eyedropper tool for white balance and click anywhere on the gray area to set my white balance. Takes all of about 1 second. It's not perfect, but it sets my white balance and color better than I trust myself, especially in tricky lighting. The color green can be tricky, on overcast days even more so. Should underexpose about 2/3 stop to bring out the green. The camera's meter will tell you you're wrong, and if you shoot in auto it will not let you compensate. The little card will help in that regard.

The website http://michaeltapesdesign.com/whibal.html has a lot of videos and a good PDF guide on how it improves color and white balance.
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kit fox
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Re: Colour rendition - camera settings & editing - help, ple

Post by kit fox »

Kevin nailed it with the simple white balance card. If you want to really get fancy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUrNGhK ... 8BOSZKEJR1
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chrish
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Re: Colour rendition - camera settings & editing - help, ple

Post by chrish »

While a gray card can help get your colors "correct" in regard to white balance, it doesn't deal well with the green issue. Even if you have the colors correct, certain shades of green seem to be undersaturated by most sensors. It isn't noticeable in most photos, but people who photograph Crotalus lepidus males with their green tints often complain about not being able to capture it correctly. I suspect it might be that there is some structural aspect to the green color that doesn't record on film/sensor.

Somewhere, a long time ago, we had a post about this green saturation showing examples. I know this photo was included in that discussion -

Image
bgorum
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Re: Colour rendition - camera settings & editing - help, ple

Post by bgorum »

chrish wrote:While a gray card can help get your colors "correct" in regard to white balance, it doesn't deal well with the green issue. Even if you have the colors correct, certain shades of green seem to be undersaturated by most sensors. It isn't noticeable in most photos, but people who photograph Crotalus lepidus males with their green tints often complain about not being able to capture it correctly. I suspect it might be that there is some structural aspect to the green color that doesn't record on film/sensor.

Somewhere, a long time ago, we had a post about this green saturation showing examples. I know this photo was included in that discussion -

Image
I agree with Chris. This is not a white balance issue. I just thought of a cool experiment I want to try though. Here in New Mexico many male banded rock rattlesnakes match the color of green lichens that grow on the rocks the snakes inhabit. I don't normally take posed pictures, but the next time I find a nice green male klaub I'm going to pose it on a rock completely covered with the green lichen and take a photo. It should be interesting to see if I get the same green in both the snake and the lichen.
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