Multiple lighting at night

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Kevin Price
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Multiple lighting at night

Post by Kevin Price »

Hello. I'm a new member, but I have been on and off this site since about 2007. This is the best site regarding herp photography that I have ever seen. Nothing else even comes close. I shoot almost exclusively at night; either night hikes or road driving. I have slowly developed a way for me to get consistent images using a flash bracket or radio receiver attached to my flash with both flash and camera in manual mode.

Finally my question, does anyone here use multiple lights in their field photography? I use a diffuser on my flash and want to add a second flash along with a very portable light stand with another type of diffuser. This may be more of a hassle than it's worth, but I would still like to give it a try. So instead of re-inventing the wheel I wanted to check with everyone here.
Kevin
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justinm
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by justinm »

For night time shooting I often use two external flashes, and a Fenix flashlight with CREE LED's that don't show up in the photos.
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Kevin Price
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Kevin Price »

Thanks. I use a Streamlight Scorpion flashlight mounted close to the centerline of my lens. It's not LED, but so far I have not had any issues with it showing up in the photo.
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by jason folt »

Kevin,

I use a few different methods to shoot at night with multiple flashes. I will either use my camera flash with a separate hand help wireless flash or a wireless macro flash setup with 3 flashes.


On camera flash and handheld flash
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Macro flashes attached to the front of my lens.
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Regarding a stand, I made a stand in the past to hold one of my off camera flashes in the dirt, although I haven't used this much recently.

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Best of luck!

Jason
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Kevin Price
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Kevin Price »

Thanks Jason! Those stands are good; easy to set up and very portable. Nice photos too. I was trying to submit a photo I had as an example but have not figured out how to attach one yet.
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

Kevin Price wrote: I was trying to submit a photo I had as an example but have not figured out how to attach one yet.
Upload your pix on photobucket.com or a similar image hosting site, then insert the tags here in the body of your posts.

Like may others, I also photograph a lot at night. Your setup is very interesting. Would you care to divulge a few tips/tricks/secrets? Maybe in a new post?

Cheers and thanks in advance!

Hans
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by bgorum »

Image

I just started experimenting with using two flashes when photographing at night this summer. I use Nikon sb600s on a d200 and I use the Nikon CLS which is very automatic. The photograph above has one flash set to the front right at 0 exposure compensation and the other to the front left at -1 stop. The flashes are mounted on either the little plastic stand that they came with or on a small manfrotto table top tripod with a ball head. I've still got a lot to learn about doing this. For instance in the photo above the snake reared up high enough that the flashes were really set too low to the ground and I would have liked to get a bit more light on the top of the snake's head. I really do prefer the light I get with this basic two flash setup to what I get with a single flash though.

Bill
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Kevin Price
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Kevin Price »

Thanks for the info on posting photos Hans, I did some research on the forum and found a way to do it (I think).

About my set up, it’s been a trail and error process to get to where I am now. I currently use a Stroboframe folding flash bracket with my small Scorpion flashlight slung underneath the top arm and suspended with a large rubberband. The flashlight is for lighting the subject in order to focus and the rubberband allows me to flex and move the flashlight depending on the composition I’ve set up for the shot. I use the flash bracket to try to keep the flash high for a more natural look without having to hold it up in the air with my hand. My focal point is always focus on the eye, but not always in the center of the frame. My flash is connected with a TTL cord to my camera or with a radio receiver, depending on where I want the light, but my camera is always in manual mode to allow my to use a fast shutter speed. I use speeds between 1/125 up to my sync speed of 1/250 and adjust light output accordingly. I use a Stofen diffuser on the flash to both soften the light and to spread it out more. I work to get more of a natural day light effect and to reduce as much of the shadows as I can. I want to move into multiple lighting to further reduce the shadows and to allow more flexibility in making the light do what I need it to do for the shot I’m looking for.

Bill, beautiful shot! I like your setup and agree with you that a little higher with the lighting would have illuminated the head better. I have been considering using an umbrella to the side and high above the subject set on a high power setting and another flash either directly in front or just to the opposite side and low for fill. As has been the case in the past with me, what I may think will work is not always the reality and may have to rethink how and what I do.

Thanks very much for the input and advice. I certainly hope I can return the favor as well. Many people have helped me over the years and I in turn want to do the same.

The image below was taken in July at about 1130 at night on a trip to Hildago County, New Mexico, of a viridis. He never stopped rattling the entire time I was dealing with him, but the fast shutter speed freezes his tail.

Image
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jason folt
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by jason folt »

That's a nice rattler shot at night. I find snakes to be a bit more difficult because of all the loops and coils. The handheld is a pain in the butt, but it helps you change your lighting between shots to tailor it to your needs. Here are a couple more night shots of snakes. These were with a handheld and an on camera flash.

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Chad M. Lane
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Chad M. Lane »

As I have done a lot of shooting at night, I have tried out many different ways. I have two main ways for shooting at night, a SB-800 on camera (with soft box/diffuser), and the Nikon R1 speelight macro kit. I also sometimes use the Wimberly Macro Brackets to mount my SB-800 on to add even more flexibility to shooting at night, to increase/decrease shadows.

Here is the SB-800 mounted on camera, with the R1 Kit. (not at night of course).

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one at night.

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Some results from night shots with this setup.

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Cheers,
Chad
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Kevin Price
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Kevin Price »

Wow. Jason, that's a beautiful Blacktail and wonderfully lit. Awesome images Chad, that's exactly what I'm looking to achieve with my lighting. I was thinking more along the lines of additional external flashes, but you guys have it down without complicating it into something completely unusable. I like the portability factor, though the cost of a macro lighting setup, such as the R1, is pretty steep. I shoot Canon and Canon’s version, the Macro Twin Lite MT-24EX, attaches to the hot shoe of the camera negating the use of an on camera flash with a soft box such as Chad’s. I’d still like an additional flash, so I’ll have to do some more head scratchin.

This is really great info and thanks to all who have responded. No where else could I have gotten the help and advice on how to use multiple lighting to illuminate reptiles at night than here (I've looked).
Kevin
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by aliceinwl »

I shoot with Canon too. I've used multiple flashes (580 and a one or two off camera slaves) in the past. This summer I got the Macro Twin Lite MT-24EX and love it. I can pretty much shoot on the fly at night with good results for minimal work. Here're some night shots taken with the Twin Lite:

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I also came across this site, more geared towards insect photography, but a lot of the tips cross over: http://nocroppingzone.blogspot.com/2008 ... -24ex.html

-Alice
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Kevin Price
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Kevin Price »

Thanks Alice. Nice shots. How does your macro light work at a little more distance? Your atrox looks good, how far away from it where you? Do you still use the 530 and slaves, or is it primarily your MT-24 now? As for the link, I'll check it as well.
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by aliceinwl »

I've pretty much been using nothing but the MT-24 since I got it. The one exception is wide angle shots / anything with my wide angle lens; the attachment for the twin light isn't compatible with that size so I still use my 580. I suspect that the twin light might be a bit underpowered for non-macro shots.

With the 580 and slaves, it was a pain lugging the second flash, positioning it, etc., especially when doing things solo. With the twin light, I can pretty much set it up on the camera and carry the whole assembly as I hike around or jump out of the car and take some quick shots with pretty much the same results as if I'd set up the second flash. There are some shots I've taken, however, where I think a third flash would have helped, but I haven't played with slaving a third flash to it yet.

The C. atrox was a big snake, and I want to say I was at least 3 or 4 feet away from him.

Really Right Stuff makes some mounts that let you attach a couple of standard size flashes to your camera in addition to the flash on the hot shoe. One of my friends shoots with this set-up and gets awesome results, but it's heavier, not as compact and really works best with a monopod or tripod.

-Alice
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Kevin Price
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Kevin Price »

Thanks Alice,

I've looked at some of the Really Right Stuff multiple flash gear; it's very well manufactured but just too much for what I need. I also am usually solo in my excursions and though compact, it does seem too heavy and bulky. I like images of frogs and toads, like the Couch's below, but primarily I'm looking to shoot snakes, in particular rattlesnakes, and need a little more room between the two of us!
Kevin

Image
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by aliceinwl »

I really don't remember exactly how far away I was from the rattlesnake, I was pretty much making sure I stayed out of the strike zone while getting all of the snake in frame (I might be underestimating, now that I think about it, I know I was standing for the below shots and I'm 5'5" so I may actually have been 5+ ft away). These were also shot with the twin lite. I mainly posted the amphibs because I got lazy with the rattlers and just took shots of them on the road.

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If there's a camera store near you, a lot of times they'll let you try out flashes etc. if you bring your camera in. I felt like the flash was pretty intuitive so I think you'd be able to get a good idea if it would work for you with a little play time.

Another thing to keep in mind is what lens you usually shoot with. The twin lite mount fits the 100mm and can fit the 180 mm macro with an adapter. I think Really Right Stuff sells some alternate twin lite mounts that would let you use it with another lens but they're $$$.
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Schell »

Chad - I really love the lighting that the Nikon macro kit couples with the hot-shoe flash delivers. That is probably my biggest gripe about canon gear, that their twin flash-head macro kit has the computer mounted on the hot-shoe so you can't put another flash there. I'm still happy with the results that I get, it's relatively portable and not too heavy but I think the nikon set-up gives a bit more even exposure with fewer shadows.

Here are some of my results with the canon mt-24ex.

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FWIW, I also use my flash during the day to even out shadows, tones, etc.

A couple examples of that

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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by MHollanders »

I like how these double flashes get rid of the shadows and even the light better, but I am partially annoyed by the double flash reflections in the eyes of some of these animals...
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Kevin Price
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Kevin Price »

Alice, those rattlers seemed well lit even at that distance. I was thinking that because the heads seem small that they would not put out as much light as say a larger shoe mount flash. They appear to be more than capable.

Rob, that's been my big concern with the MT-24; once mounted you are committed to that flash only. I wonder if the Nikon set-up would work in a non ETTL mode with a Canon camera?

As for the double flash reflections in the eyes, it seems a pretty simple job to clone out one of the offending reflections in photoshop. I've looked at the images in the post with the twin light system multiple times and it just does not really bother me that much, but YMMV.
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Chad M. Lane »

MHollanders: Did you look at my photos? I used 3 flashes, and all besides maybe the Rattlesnake has only one eye shine. Took me 10 secs to clone two of them out. Without an eye shine the animals look 'dead' in a way lifeless. Even shooting during the day you have some kind of reflection in the eye. Three sometimes bug me, as I don't always clone them out, but I like the look of the main flash reflection.

I will also say my goal is not to eliminate shadows it's to reduce hard/harsh shadows. It's something I am still working on. I use my SB-R200's (on the R1 kit) to help reduce and balance the lighting they normally are at 1/3-1/2 stop less output than my main flash SB-800 either on camera or on my Wimberly Bracket.

I still work on trying to even out all the lighting through out the photo so that even that background if somewhat evening lit which is much harder said than done. I also as of late have figured out using a lower F/stop 13-18 vs 22+ and reducing your flash output much lower I am getting much more even lighting on the animals with less overexposure and hot spots on the animals also reducing the amount of shine on scales/moist skin. Though this is another topic all together.

When people ask me which brand is better Nikon, Canon, Sony etc... I always tell them, you really can't go wrong with any DSLR brand, but Nikon has a much better lighting system at least compared of Canon's. I can't really speak for other systems as I have not used them. I believe Nikon is a step above most in the Creative lighting systems, and flexibility. Though this also depends on what you want to shot, how you shot, and what style.

I'm by means no pro, just enjoy the photography of animals I love, I am consistently learning, and trying new things, in fact at least in California this year, I haven't found to many lifers, because I've been working on rephotographing species I have found and working on improving my photography.

Sorry for my rant I hope it helps somehow!



Cheers,
Chad
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Chad M. Lane »

I also wanted to say this. As this thread shows, you don't have to have three flashes to get good results, and the flashes don't have to be on camera or even near the camera. As long as you have a master in camera, or master flash you can use normal external flashes, at different angles to light your subject. It's a matter of time, playing around with it, and just shooting as much as possible. I can spend up to an hour photographing a animal, not always, but I have. That's an hour I could have found 10 more snakes in some people rather be herping that hour than taking photos of the one find. It's a problem I had in AZ this year... spend more time photographing it, or spend it finding others?


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Chad
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Kevin Price
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Kevin Price »

Chad, I couldn’t agree with you more. I had asked if anyone had used more than the one flash, and if so how did, or didn’t, it work. I have no problem shooting with both camera and flash on manual, I usually prefer it for flexibility, but I was not looking to lug two other flashes with stands and/or umbrellas with me. I had certain ideas in my head, some of which I already knew were not very practical, and wanted to hear from others on what has worked for them. From what everyone has said and shown, I now have other ideas and directions I would like to investigate that I didn’t have prior to this post. That is what’s so good about this site, everyone is like-minded and most have struggled through issues others are just beginning to tackle. Like you, I would rather spend more time photographing one animal well, than trying to find as many as possible in that same time frame. It’s quality over quantity.

It’s funny you mentioned that you had that problem in Arizona this year. I too was in AZ this year and my time spent with each snake became an issue. That was my whole reason for going. It was not about checking the next thing off of some arbitrary list, but thinking each shot through and how I wanted it setup. I also keep a journal of all of my finds that include times, GPS locations, road and ambient temps, and any other interesting observations I may see. That is what is important to me; it’s the details. It’s not that way with everyone though. One snake in particular was very special to me; the Mojave rattlesnake. That has been my white whale and no matter how many times I’ve gone on trips specifically looking for it, it has always eluded me. I was told that in AZ it was just a nuisance and I would see so many that I would grow weary of stopping for them. Turns out only one was found in four days. I’m glad I took over 30 minutes photographing it, almost bonding with it. That snake, and the time I was able to spend with it, meant an awful lot to me. One of those photos became my avatar picture on this site.

Kevin
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by chrish »

This has been an interesting thread with some great photographs so far.

Chad,

That's an interesting comment about opening up (the f/stop) and dialing down the flash to reduce reflections. Have to think about that one. Is that at night or during the day?

One thing important to think about with these discussions of two/three flash systems and how cumbersome they are is to remember that with two flashes you get almost twice the flash power so you don't need two big flash heads. Two small flash heads can provide more lighting options than one big flash head at about the same cost. For example, a pair of Sony's little HVL-F20AM flash units cost less that a large unit, would fit in a shirt pocket and provide lots of good lighting options for most herp work.
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Chad M. Lane
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Chad M. Lane »

Chris,

I've done it during the day and night, but notice it more so at night. Due to the fact the flashes are the sole lighting of the subject, rather than during the day where you have ambient lighting. I will have to play with it more, maybe I can get a good example shots and I'll post them sometime.

I still use my SB-800 as my main light exposing most of the snake, and background, then using the SB-R200's to even it out, exposing the front of the snake, foreground, and reducing harsh shadows.
Though with some really small snakes, IE: young Nightsnakes, Sharptails, etc... I'm not sure how it'll work, as I normally at least on my FF sensor have to bump up my F/stop fairly high to get the DOF I want.

I'm even thinking about getting some small soft boxes/diffusers for my SB-R200's to help soften the light just haven't found something I really like yet. Also I only have a cheap POS soft box for my SB-800 it's also on the small size, I plan on picking up another one, that Gary Nafis uses it's great build, larger and more portable. I just haven't had the time, or $$ to pick one up, as I have to drive almost an hour to get it.

Flash photography is fun, and can be rewarding, though it takes a lot of work, not get nasty results with flashes.

I've tried using just my R1C1 kit just like Canon's version and I couldn't for the life of me, get the results I was looking for, or a step in the right direction to get even nice lighting at least at night. I found out I needed a 3rd flash lighting from above. The Wimberly works great for this. I almost never have my Flash angled down, it's always and a higher degree normally right before 45.



Cheers,
Chad
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Kevin Price
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Kevin Price »

The more I've looked at the Canon MT-24 macro system, the more this is looking like what I have been seeking. From all of the posts here with a twin macro lighting setup, I think I may go that route, at least rent it if I can and see how it performs for me. I really liked Chad's system with both the twin lighting and diffused shoe mount. I found that the Canon MT-24 will allow wireless flash with a Canon flash as a slave, so I can have the twin lighting as well as an off camera flash to fill in and soften those shadows. I can mount my other flash on a spike style stand like Jason used to add light to the rear. Here's another example of mine.
Image

I like the image but it seems kind of flat to me. I'd like to really modify the light more to reduce and soften shadows in some areas, and enhance and add shadows in other areas. I'm much closer to determining what exactly I need, ease of use and portability being tantamount. The twin light setup is very close to that.
Thanks,
Kevin
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by aliceinwl »

I just wanted to add, since I hadn't mentioned it before that I do use diffusers with the twin lite (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/control ... 435&is=REG) . I read that without them, the light tends to be pretty harsh.

-Alice
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Kevin Price
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Kevin Price »

That's the same type of diffuser I use now on my one flash. Nice to know they are available on the MT-24, thanks.

Kevin
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by dezertwerx »

Im definitely a newbie with my setup.... until recently I was using a Canon Rebel... with no external flash and always on automatic settings.

I have alot to learn... too bad I mostly find myself photographing crotes... not the best time to be learning to use a camera. Here is a shot taken on an extremely dark night in Arizona last month... Taken with a Macro Ring Lite MR-14EX

Only major complaint I have is obviously the reflection of the rings...

Image



Image
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Kevin Price »

Nice photos! The ring light reflections are not too bad. Would not take much to clone in between the rings and fill out the reflection if it was an issue. You could also just remove them entirely and add a smaller catch light to the eyes. As for practicing with your camera; I use various objects as targets when I'm trying new ideas or techniques. I'll use some of my kids old toys that either approximates the shape and size of my subject, or one that has different curves and surface areas to see how the light plays off of it. It may sound weird, but find a rubber snake and shoot with it like you would in the field. Set it up as you'd like and shoot it from many different angles. It's surprising what you can learn when you have a "cooperative" model!
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Kevin Price »

It seems that this thread is pretty much at an end. I just wanted to say thanks to all who have helped me with their posts and suggestions. I had certain ideas and concepts on what I wanted and how to get there, but after all of the comments you've given me, I have changed my thinking and am going in a direction I did not even consider. It's looking like the on-camera twin flash with a off camera slave is the way I'm going. I could not have reached that decision without you.
Thanks,
Kevin
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

Thanks to everyone from me, too - I learned a lot just standing by the ringside. That's what makes this forum so great.
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Schell »

aliceinwl wrote:I just wanted to add, since I hadn't mentioned it before that I do use diffusers with the twin lite (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/control ... 435&is=REG) . I read that without them, the light tends to be pretty harsh.

-Alice

Hey Alice,

Just to add to what you said, the MT-24 is indeed harsh, but IMO the sto-fens don't do a whole lot to actually diffuse the light since the diffusers are still very angular. You get a bit more even light from the flash head, but it does little as an actual diffuser.

I use two of the gary fong puffer diffusers. They are actually designed to be used on the pop-up flash using the included bracket, but that pops right off and I use some self-adhesive velcro to attach them to my flash heads. They work fairly well, not ideal, but functional in the field and small enough not to be obtrusive.

Here are a couple of shots of what they look like - I'm shooting a eumeces in the first and a gambelia in the second shot.

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Resulting image

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And

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Resulting image

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I've also head of people doubling up and using both the sto-fens and the puffer, but I'd think that cuts down on light transmission considerably.

Cheers!
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Kevin Price
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Kevin Price »

Schell,
That's a cool idea. Have you used the Sto-Fens much? I've used mine on a single flash for about two years and it has worked really well, but since you mention it, it does not really diffuse the light.

BTW-I'm surprised to see your other lens laying on the ground behind you in the third image. You don't carry two camera's to keep from switching lenses? That's wierd, I've never heard of someone doing that. ;)
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by aliceinwl »

Thanks Schell! The lighting on your shots looks really nice, I'll look into getting a pair of the puffers and see how they compare.
-Alice
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Schell
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by Schell »

<--- Still super jealous of your R. onca shots ;).
aliceinwl wrote:Thanks Schell! The lighting on your shots looks really nice, I'll look into getting a pair of the puffers and see how they compare.
-Alice
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Re: Multiple lighting at night

Post by mikemike »

I'm a little late to jump on board here, but this scute was shot at night in LA county earlier this year.

Image

I shot it with a Nikon D300s and hot shoe mounted SB800. I shoot rather low to the ground which helps cut down overhead shadows and I also positioned a small flashlight shooting in from the back, just out of frame which cut down the rest of the shadows.
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