Crow or Raven?

[Porter]

I'm new to birding and have to admit Im kinda stumped on this one... heres the details: Yolo county farmlands close to the wetlands preserve where rare migrating birds are seen at times, huge size of an adult red-tailed hawk, seemed to be collecting sticks for a nest during spring, two of them together as a pair not group, soaring/hovering in high winds together in the same spot in front of me for several minutes at a time, bottom beak looks same size as top, there is ruffled chin hair but hard to tell do to wind, crossed wing tips before flight, beak top fluff extending half way, tail appears to display a point in some shots but not enough due to distorted angle, curvature of beak, ect.... I know the basics and what each of these traits are suppose to indicate. I need someone with experience seeing raven in crow territory and crows in raven territory to fine detail this ID. Ive watch youtube, googled pics, but they seem to compare only the far end of spectrum...what is the verdict and why?



20160707_040131 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

raven or crow12a by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

raven or crow11 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

raven or crow12 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

raven or crow6 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

raven or crow10 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

raven or crow7 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

raven or crow1 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

raven or crow8 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

raven or crow9 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

raven or crow by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

raven or crow5 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

raven or crow4 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

raven or crow3 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

raven or crow2 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

[Andy Avram]

Ravens.

A few other details to look for. Ravens soar, crows may glide but they don't soar. There is a huge size difference between the birds, and proportionately a ravens beak is much bigger too. The easiest thing to look for is when they are flying overhead the tail of a raven will appear wedge shaped and crows do not.

Andy

[chrish]

Agreed, Common Ravens. That big bill is a give away here.

Another thing that helps is their calls. They really do sound different - http://birdnote.org/show/ravens-and-crows-who-who

[Porter]

Thanks guys!

I agree, I was thinking Raven all along, then thought during editing, I'd better check some anatomical features just to be sure. Then was surprised at how many look more like a crow... first and foremost the beak shape (top not much larger that bottom except slightly) and the lack of bushiness. it looks like a well-manicured raven but I guess it's because of the wind... or maybe a locale thing, I don't know...I never really paid attention before. if it was big like a hawk, I just thought to myself, Raven. The Ravens displayed and YouTube videos seem to be very extreme no-doubt-about-Raven type characteristics

I'm aware of the croaking and more Sophisticated language of the Raven but I didn't hear these guys talk at all. Crows tend to always be in large groups around here of at least five to seven. and because of them not flying up above me and the angle I couldn't really see the tapered tail. I definitely needed some more experienced eyes Much appreciated

[Porter]

What would you guys say about this one?

Raven attacking Red-tailed Hawk by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

[pete]

That is a great shot!
It is a crow. Much smaller than the redtail.