http://www.texaszoo.org/events/Eventsvi ... vents.aspx



I sent them the following email:


Here is their email address if anyone want to email them!
[email protected]

Josh

This is a travesty. I sent a letter which you can see on the South Central Forum.

It would great if others could send a polite email explaining politely and succinctly why you think this would reflect poorly on the zoo.

(And yes, this post was a not so subtle bump )

Disgusting. Hiring those guys as "Special Guests" is the worst thing I have ever heard of for a place that *should* be concerned with conservation. It's like hiring a convicted child molester as an elementary teacher...

Hey, great idea! Maybe they can get these guys to come and spend the day at the Great Apes exhibit, just to add human interest.

I don't get why a Zoo would hiring on these people, one they go out hunt as many rattlesnakes as they can sell them for money also use them in the round ups which is one of the worse thing ever created, rattlesnakes were the national reptile in combat I think it should be official like the bald eagle and then the rattlesnakes would be federally protected (granted people would still hunt them down) or at least regulate the hunt make a bag limit and only have it open for a week on a lottery (against this but if it stops the high level killings).

Contacted the zoo and gave them a piece of my mind ...

Zoos aren't interested in conservation, as a rule. They also aren't very good at education. I haven't seen this show, but have heard of it. I can see someone in administration thinking this is a good idea though, it's on TV. Too many people believe that Discovery, Nat Geo, Animal Planet etc. are the gold standard of conservation and education. I have some small contact with zoo personnel in my area including the curator. The curator told me that they don't plan on having more reptilian displays because no one cares about them... I've seen lots of dumb things happen in the name of zoos. Jack Hannah comes to mind. Spend 5 minutes talking to that guy sometime.

I have to disagree here. It is the keepers that make the zoo and there are many keepers who have put in huge amounts of effort along with personal time and money into conservation efforts in the area of herpetologie. You must be looking at a different rule book than I.

I guess Steve Irwin and Marlin Perkins had nothing to do with conservation. I wonder how many kids were inspired to follow in their steps.

I've had quite a bit of contact with zoo personel over the years from all over the world... and still do.

I only mention this because it belittles the job many of them work so hard to do in promoting conservation.

the best thing all of us can do is contact them and be polite and professional about it, even though this is NOT our profession (for the most part). If we rant and rave, we sound like the very lunatic reptile people we claim give us a bad name. Send them an email or written letter expressing distaste for their promotion of anything related to a show that highlights and idolizes catching and killing mass quantities for profit. Include that it will likely dissuade you from ever visiting their zoo. If they see that for every extra ticket buyer they get that day, they lose potential customers down the road, and maybe it will change their minds. Unfortunately I think it's too little too late and the people that decided to invite them are probably not the same people in charge of the reptiles of the park.

I posted a comment about it on Facebook about whether or not the zoo would be donating any of their display animals for demonstration purposes for those guys...

Having worked at some zoos and aquariums in my past, and knowing others that also do, I couldn't disagree more. AZA accredited zoos are very much dedicated to both conservation and education programs.

Also don't know where you're going, but reptiles/amphibians displays are incredibly popular.

The people who work at zoos that I know and have known. Well they tend to know more than anyone, even when they're dead to rights wrong. I could go on but it's not worth it. I'll just say that the most famous zookeeper alive today is Jack Hannah and leave it at that. That's why I'm not shocked that a zoo would get guys like this involved.

I agree I think that Herps are the best thing to see at zoos, it's just my local zoo is lame. They did a 23 million dollar renovation and added one snake. One! It's since been removed...

Jeff Lemm's ears are ringing

It's very unfortunate that you've gotten such an impression, Justin, but please don't assert it as fact as it is absolutely not true. I've spent the greater part of my career working in a few zoos and with many others, always as a wildlife scientist focusing at least a good portion of my time and effort specifically on conservation. For long stretches of time, too, conservation work was virtually all I did for them. Over those many years I've also known a great many other zoo staff, including not only scientists but also keepers, curators, educators, veterinarians and directors, who care passionately about conservation and have dedicated their lives to the cause. Indeed, that orientation and dedication is the rule, and the few people with different mindsets are the exception. It's true that sometimes a zoo's administration, mainly due to a director who is so inclined, will go astray and return in some respects to the "amusement park with live animals" mindset that prevailed in zoos many decades ago. The folks at the very top have to focus a lot of their attention on attendance, which is in truth essential to pretty much any zoo's success, and that can lead them to do some foolish things (like promote white tiger breeding as a success for conservation, or hold an idiotic event such as Viper Day with guest stars who are actually antithetical to conservation) and as I said even to sometimes follow a downright errant path. But that never lasts for too long, and even while it lasts it is limited both by the number of dedicated staff that remain at the institution in question (despite their director's orientation) and by the edicts of the Association of Zoos & Aquariums, which not only cares a great deal about conservation but also requires all accredited institutions to contribute tangibly to the cause.

Gerry

Perfect example of how very limited your knowledge is of prominant zoo keepers is.

To say all zoos are not conservation oriented based on your limited experience with zoos is kind of an ignorant statement.

A good portion of the practices used in current herpetoculture was greaned from the workings of collections in zoos.

I can name many successes in the name of conservation that came out of zoos with some of the most popular being the Komodo Dragon, Radiated Tortoise, Galapagos tortoise, Bog Turtle... Aruba Island Rattlesnake(thought I'd throw that in to avoid any bias)... among many others. My knowledge is limited to herps but I can think of a few projects in the mamalian world also.

Marlin Perkins will always be THE zoo keeper in most peoples minds who have an interest in biology. The reason being is that the older folk were weaned on his programs and those that are serious students have to have realised this if they studied any of the early history of captive biology.

Bottom line... the majority of the zoos I know of do deserve respect.

EJ,

Ugh, sorry that I have an opinion that differs from yours since you know everything. Are komodo's in danger of going extinct? I have been told by zookeepers that they have to keep the males and female seperate? Why, because they so readily breed. Are Aruba Island Rattlesnakes losing ground? I've been to the Island. I know where they live, and the habitat is too rocky for much more than goats (I didn't see any that weren't in pens made of cacti). What was the point of putting those species in, as if zoos are saving them from the brink. I'm not saying zoos can't do good work. I know they can and have.

I'm saying that they're about as good at teaching the public as Discovery Channel, Animal Planet etc. They have to be a little sensational. If they weren't only small children would be interested in going. The rest of the people would find it too mundane. So zoos have to be sensational, and it's unfortunate. But that's why they have guys like Jack Hannah, or in this case Rattlesnake Republic.

They were with the very limited range they have. I've been told that they are actually destroying eggs because of the success they are having. Both of the animals you mention are so over represented that there is no need or desire to breed them... that's gotta tell you something.

You have my appology. I must have misunderstood what you were saying. I was under the impression that you were saying that present zoos were not about conservation.

From what I understand the common person who could normally give a flip about biology and/or conservation takes away a great deal from the Discovery Channel and the Animal Planet.

I don't think your final examples are in the same class... one is sensationalistic and the other is educational with a flare... big difference.

You don't have to be sorry about your opinion... just accept that it is in error.

Bearing in mind that a great many conservation endeavors by individual zoos aren't even mentioned by the AZA, here's a decent layout of information from the AZA's website on zoos and conservation:

http://www.aza.org/conservation/

I happened to be a coauthor on one of the very first AZA Conservation Endowment Fund grants to be awarded. It's focus was on conducting a population viability analysis and starting a conservation assessment program for Sumatran tigers - at a time when there weren't even any Sumatran tigers in North American zoos (i.e. it was aimed entirely at doing in situ conservation for a species that needed it).

I understand how people can get wrong - even outrageously wrong - impressions sometimes, Justin, and I'm not going to beat you up for yours. But that is indeed what it is even if you don't yet recognize it as such, and I ask you to look into the matter further before again denigrating so many hard-working zoo conservationists.

Gerry

How can you say that all zoos are are conservation minded, when this one isn't. We're in the same book different pages I think. Will the AZA hold this zoo accountable, or do snakes not count as much as Tigers and Pandas do?

Justin i don't believe the Texas Zoo hosting the viper event is an "accredited" zoo or part of the AZA

I reread the post a couple times over... I don't see where anyone has said all zoos are conservation oriented. I said most zoos that I'm famaliar with are conservation minded... or... at least the keepers that I'm acquainted with are.

I kinda see the point you are trying to make but I take offense and suspect many readers take offense at your one broad statement.

I think, this whole conversation is filled with opposing opinions, both of which are backed by fact, and both have possible flaws in the arguement.

Being in between two smaller zoos, owned only for profit (Capital of Texas zoo, being one. Their "Snake room" was very small, and they were attempting to feed their ball python with ant-covered chicken nuggets from McDonalds.) As well as two larger zoos (Houston, San Antonio) and a medium sized (Waco). Obviously Houston and San Antonio tend to gravitate towards conservation...Houston constantly hosts the East Texas Herpetological Society, and a buddy of mine who is studying animal science was placed as an intern in san antonio...where they focused him on Reptiles. Obviously, reptiles are of great concern there.

Since the first zoo, and until the end of time, there will be those out for money (Austin zoo...capital of TX zoo...etc.) and those that are serious about conservation. Animals in general will always be something everyone is fascinated by, be it lions and tigers, apes, fish, reptiles...whatever.

Point of the thread is: Rattlesnake Republic is a huge step backwards in the conservation of anything, especially herps. The fact that a zoo, which should see this immensely obvious fact, should not be promoting such a thing.

I said that all AZA-accredited zoos are required to contribute to conservation, and that all zoos with which I have had personal dealings (which is a fairly large number) were extremely committed to conservation. I'm not going to argue the case for every roadside attraction that calls itself a zoo, and there's no need for me to do so.

I don't know whether the Victoria zoo is accredited, but even if they're not, you can't assume based on this one extremely ill-advised event that they aren't conservation-minded there. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the great majority of their staff routinely put in a fair amount of effort on behalf of conservation - and are as disgusted by this event as we at FHF are.

Take a look at that AZA website I linked. Try a bit harder to look past your outrage at this one stupid event and see the broader picture.

Gerry

It seems that we have got a bit off-track here by discussing zoos in general. I will say that the majority of U.S. AZA accredited zoos that I have had any dealings with have all been very much conservation oriented and interested in the scientific study of their animals, including herps. Zoos that come to mind are the Houston Zoo, the San Antonio Zoo, the Gladys Porter Zoo in Brownsville, the Dallas Zoo, and the San Diego Zoo. When you look at all the zoos nationwide, yes there are some rotten apples among them, but they are generally the exception to the rule.

Getting back to the issue at hand with the Texas Zoo in Victoria, Texas. This is a smaller but growing private zoo with non-profit status that has been around for a number of years. While it is privately run, the City of Victoria does budget and contribute funds to them yearly to help support it. We (SWCHR) have in the past couple of years been contacted by them asking for help in locating and obtaining certain species of animals for them. We honored their request in part and did help them out with a couple of captive-bred non-protected species to further expand their educational display. Needless to say, we were highly disappointed and disgusted when we learned of their upcoming Viper Day featuring the macho good ol' boys from the Rattlesnake Republic. I have since expressed our disappointment and disgust in the choices that they have made in this matter and have told them that if they so choose to partner with the likes of the Rattlesnake Republic people that we will no longer honor any future requests that they may make of us and will no longer support the zoo in any manner whatsoever.

It is also worthwhile to note that to the best of my knowledge their Director left the zoo and I believe that they are still without a Director. If that is the case, there is no telling who dreamed up this Viper Day fiasco.

-Gerald

Justin, just by reading your posts, you have no idea about zoos, the AZA, conservation, or even basic ecology when it comes to species such as dragons or Arubas. I very much dislike the show you mentioned and I can't believe a zoo is having those guys as guests. But to say zoos don't focus on conservation based on what one small zoo is doing is absurd. I have spent over 20 years of my life in the field and working with captive breeding programs in the name of conservation - and yes, its working. We spend millions every year on these programs, not for PR, but to help, and we have been very successful. I hope you do see what you're saying and the people you are offending by your blanket statement.

Having worked at a major zoo for over 40 years, I'll echo Jeff's statement and say that all AZA accredited zoos donate a ton of money to conservation programs for both in situ and ex situ programs. In fact the Bronx zoo puts more money into field conservation than any other US zoo. Not all zoos can afford the conservation budgets of the larger zoos, but every bit helps. One also should remember that rattlesnake roundups are still legal in Texas. I'm happy to hear that at least one of our members have benefited from the AZA Consevation Endowment Fund. I'd say thats money well spent.

Didn't John Behler work at the Bronx Zoo?

Yes, he worked there for many years and worked on a number of herp projects. In fact there is a turtle & tortoise facility in Ojai named in his honor.

Sorry, I was kinda trying to make a point. I remember John Behler was instrumental in many conservation projects at the Bronx Zoo including the St. Catherines Island facility here in GA. I thought the it was a shame the project was moved but it would seem the move was for the better.

Just to quibble a bit, I'd say that the Wildlife Conservation Society gets that honor; granted WCS was born at the Bronx Zoo, but nowadays WCS is actually the parent organization not only of that zoo but also a handful of others as well as of various non-zoo programs all over the world. Giving the Bronx Zoo credit for all of that would be a bit like giving the Minnesota Zoo (where I started my zoo career way back when) credit for all of the work done by the IUCN's Captive Breeding Specialist Group, the International Species Information System and the AZA's Conservation Office just because they were all born there.


What a nice thing to say! Thank you!

I knew John Behler somewhat, too, way back when. I unfortunately never got the opportunity to work with him on anything, though, so all of my direct memories of him were formed at annual zoo conferences, especially their icebreakers - a rather strange way to remember anybody, if you know what I mean!

Anyway, getting back on topic, I think the Texas Zoo in Victoria deserves every bit of criticism that they get for their boneheaded event. Did you SWCHR folks put your protest and withdrawal of support in writing, Gerald? I hope so, as otherwise it's too easy for them to pretend it didn't happen. And if you did, it'd be great to hear how if at all they respond to you.

Gerry

The debate has hit the mainstream news:

http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/20 ... ertainment

Gerry,
you are correct, its just that I'm old school. I worked with John on Chinese alligators and radiated tortoises among others. I donate something to the CEF auction every year and I really am happy to see that the funds are being used for the purpose it was intended.
I would hope that the folks responsible for adding the Rattlesnake Republic to the venue receive enough messages that they cancel that part of the function for Viper Day.
Mike

Gerry,

It was put into an email to them. Thus far we have not had any kind of response from them. It appears that they are intent on going through with their plans.

-Gerald

From the article, it's obvious that the zoo's Program Director needs a new job. To say that she doesn't "get it" would be an understatement.

As mentioned on the Texas Zoo Facebook page, they've also hijacked the Viper Alarms logo to use to promote their event.

I thought that art looked famililar. I wonder if they would give any credit to them or if Viper Alarms would care at all that their logo was being used...

As far as the link that Hans posted, there are so many contradictory, back-to-back statements it's ridiculous... She says she doesn't promote the show or its cast members but I'm sure that they are not doing the visit at the zoo for free...

She says they are promoting conservation of snakes and their habitat and that the AP show is for entertainment purposes and that she doesn't watch it, but aknowledges what the show is about, what they do, etc.

Of course they want the snake habitat to remain intact, they make money off the snakes, if the habitat is destroyed, then they have to look elsewhere for snakes to kill.

It's strange how some people's logic works, like, how could you be confused or surprised with the reactions of people like us that say, "you are having people that make a living off of killing these snakes educate the public on conserving the species?" Is their message "Now folks, if you see a rattlesnake in your yard, don't kill it yourselves, you affect our profitability..."

I posted on the Viper FB page to let them know that their logo had been swiped.....they're a big outfit and I'll bet they have a lawyer or two tasked to look out for copyright infringement and the like.

Maybe between the logo theft and the whole association with AP/RR and the ensuing backlash, Ms Rocha can go find a new line of work, because I sure don't think she needs to be in the job she's in any longer.

The Texas Zoo lost its AZA accreditation in March of 2009 for failure to meet AZA standards.

They are neither seeking membership nor have they reapplied for accreditation.

This explains it all. They are a for profit "zoo" and will do anything to get people in the door. I bet they have alligator wrestling shows too....

I sent my "opposition" statement, and I hope AZA leaves them out!

It is Texas after all, not too surprising.

Got this email in response to this thread. Please do not make broad assumptions based on one incident.

I don't get this? Texas has some of the finest conservation oriented zoos in the country.

message sent

This was scheduled for last weekend, does anyone know if they changed their minds, went through with it, etc. were there any herpers present to give them a boo or two?

I was told that the person that actually booked the event was let go, but due to something with the contract, they were unable to cancel the event.

Not 100% sure if that is acurate or not, or just a little lie on the zoos part, but I would be very pleased with the result of letting the person who booked the event go.

Friend of mine (who was there, putting on an educational display) says:



That's all I know.