What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Dedicated exclusively to field herping.

Moderator: Scott Waters

Post Reply
User avatar
Porter
Posts: 1974
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by Porter » May 14th, 2018, 6:07 pm

We all know that at times the Porter can be a little confrontational, vulgar, obscene... Hell, some people might even say he's a freaking lunatic. A creep :( A gross and disgusting fat bastard :o but if there's one thing in this world that can bring the Porter back to his hidden sweet innocence and compassion... momentarily releasing his pain and reminding him, like a burrowed-in spadefoot waiting for the rains, that the embracive and heartwarming intimacy of a loving honest woman will one day replenish and enrich his soul... it's the beauty of this Frog Dame Modern Talking lilac salamander :thumb: ...never again will I see its equal :mrgreen:

I wanted to post this to find out what the heck to call it :lol: it's a Sierra Nevada ensatina from the Western slopes around 3500- 4,000 ft. A gravid female with a belly full of eggs. I think I saw Nick Hess and his father post one similar... and maybe Jim Bass posted a slender of similarity. I think the word starts with an L... and I wanted to say it was lethargic at first :lol: anyways, is it a morph... An aberrant... or just simply a rare variation?

Image20180514_133533 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4188
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Location: San Francisco, California

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by Kelly Mc » May 15th, 2018, 6:26 am

Amelanistic. Pretty

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 1974
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by Porter » May 15th, 2018, 1:06 pm

Kelly Mc wrote:Amelanistic. Pretty
Thanks Kelly! :beer: so that's the opposite of melanistic, right? So, that applies to animals that aren't normally black..?

The word I was thinking of was something like luethentric... Is there a word like that which describes a lack of color pigment?

User avatar
John Martin
Posts: 513
Joined: June 9th, 2010, 9:57 pm
Location: North end of Lake Okeechobee, Florida

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by John Martin » May 15th, 2018, 3:31 pm

Porter, the word you're trying to remember is leucistic (adj.), hence leucism (the condition). Kelly, why not leucistic instead of amelanistic in this case? In my old age and forgetting chit, I can't remember the exact differences between these two conditions.

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4188
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Location: San Francisco, California

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by Kelly Mc » May 15th, 2018, 3:49 pm

John Martin wrote:Porter, the word you're trying to remember is leucistic (adj.), hence leucism (the condition). Kelly, why not leucistic instead of amelanistic in this case? .

Cause I could be wrong! :lol:

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4188
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Location: San Francisco, California

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by Kelly Mc » May 15th, 2018, 3:51 pm

The iris looks dark so yeah, unless a leucistic guy would be all pink or lilac, ie no pigment. There's probably morph ppl who would be able to tell. Leucistic animals are isolate in fur or skin lack of pigment but eyes are normal. Which is striking imo. Albinos look undone.

craigb
Posts: 595
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:02 am
Location: Southern Cal.

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by craigb » May 15th, 2018, 5:19 pm

Kelly is correct. I kept a leucistic Texas ratsnake for several years before donating it to a fellow teacher. It was entirely white bodied, pink tongue, but deep blue "normal" eyes...

I think the splotches make this something else.

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 1974
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by Porter » May 15th, 2018, 7:24 pm

craigb wrote:Kelly is correct. I kept a leucistic Texas ratsnake for several years before donating it to a fellow teacher. It was entirely white bodied, pink tongue, but deep blue "normal" eyes...

I think the splotches make this something else.
Good point Craig!

Maybe Kelly is more right than she thinks... this garter snake which is clearly melanistic, has intacct blotch coloration of the normal variations as well. :?:

Image[/url]Melanistic Valley Gartersnake by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr
John Martin wrote:Porter, the word you're trying to remember is leucistic (adj.), hence leucism (the condition). Kelly, why not leucistic instead of amelanistic in this case? In my old age and forgetting chit, I can't remember the exact differences between these two conditions.
Yep, that's the word I was thinking of :thumb: is there a chance she could be a mix of both...?

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 1974
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by Porter » May 16th, 2018, 2:29 am

Also, another one was found in the Kern plateau: http://www.californiaherps.com/salamand ... adalex.jpg ...also a female.

I found this male back in 2009, who is only partial. 50/50... And here are a couple more individuals from the same locale to show the difference. These individuals found near Jackson, CA. The Lilac is definitely the base color...

ImageSierra Nevada Ensatina by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageSierra Nevada Ensatina by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageSierra Nevada Ensatina by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

craigb
Posts: 595
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:02 am
Location: Southern Cal.

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by craigb » May 16th, 2018, 7:25 pm

Those are gorgeous !
There are degrees of amelism, and leucism in nature...
But truly only a genetics expert could do a study and figure out how it relates to the others of the same species.

Porter, I like your name "Lilac" phase though.

Let's just hope "they" don't build housing tracts and strip malls on their habitat. :?

craigb
Posts: 595
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:02 am
Location: Southern Cal.

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by craigb » May 16th, 2018, 8:05 pm

This is not as pretty as yours Porter. But it did impress me...
Attachments
WWspeck6.jpg
Near Palm Springs Ca.

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 1974
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by Porter » May 16th, 2018, 11:44 pm

Lilac phase it is :thumb: ...until some damn expert gets his derriere on here and solve this puzzle... cough, cough... hack spit. Blaaaahhhh... :crazyeyes:

The Lilac one was found in a safe place that should remain says for a very long time. The other three I found after my uncle significant other passed away and I drove up to Pineville to help move his shed and other things. Found a bunch underneath the tool shed, in the firewood pile Outback, under some sheet metal, a couple painting boards, round walkway stones, and planter boxes...

That buzztail is awesome :thumb: I've still never found a rattlesnake morph of any kind. Except the blonde ones that have a little bit of Orange and high yellow. Those look pretty cool

Damn it! I was hoping people would start posting cool salamander photos to this... I mean what the Goth ma'am Mother Falcon scat...! :(

craigb
Posts: 595
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:02 am
Location: Southern Cal.

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by craigb » May 17th, 2018, 5:21 am

Well, I have a window of opportunity Tuesday next week. I'm still deciding where I will go play...
I never even got out in the field at all last year. I injured my knee and was on crutches for 5 weeks.
It's all good now. :D

User avatar
RenoBart
Posts: 336
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:22 am

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by RenoBart » May 17th, 2018, 10:47 am

Nice pics, Porter! That is one cool Ensatina!

Bart

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 1974
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by Porter » May 17th, 2018, 11:38 pm

RenoBart wrote:Nice pics, Porter! That is one cool Ensatina!

Bart
Thanks Bart :beer:
craigb wrote:Well, I have a window of opportunity Tuesday next week. I'm still deciding where I will go play...
I never even got out in the field at all last year. I injured my knee and was on crutches for 5 weeks.
It's all good now. :D
Go get one! :thumb: my leg's been messed up the whole last week and my ankles been swollen. Bart and I took a shot at some zanata but no score. We both found some other cool stuff though I'll get a post up with that soon. But yeah even though I used a walking stick most the time I'm still struggling with the leg on those slopes. Feels like I'm walking on a bubble last 2 weeks

User avatar
Chad M. Lane
Posts: 565
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:40 pm
Location: Manteca, CA
Contact:

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by Chad M. Lane » May 23rd, 2018, 3:28 pm

Here's two found in roughly similar area/zone yours came from. (Not my finds or photo used with permission).

Super neat looking animals, congrats!
Attachments
ensatina_.jpg

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 1974
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by Porter » May 23rd, 2018, 9:27 pm

That's rad Chad :thumb: thanks for posting man! Most interesting thing I find about that picture is that the one on the right looks like the orange has been faded out quite a bit almost to Yellow. And that one on the left looks like it has an abnormally large head... what's the scoop on these things? Has any work been done to determine a new evolving sub-species?

User avatar
Chad M. Lane
Posts: 565
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:40 pm
Location: Manteca, CA
Contact:

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by Chad M. Lane » May 24th, 2018, 9:56 am

The Kern Plateau animals may be "different", but they are difficult to locate and I'm not sure if any work is being done currently. Maybe someone else will chime in.

The animals I posted and you posted are just oddities likely from unknown reasons, one potential reason is soil. I had a friend collect some soil from the Kern Plateau and put it with a platensis from Madera County and it changed color similar to the animals posted here and the Kern Plateau animals.

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 1974
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by Porter » May 24th, 2018, 5:46 pm

Chad M. Lane wrote:The Kern Plateau animals may be "different", but they are difficult to locate and I'm not sure if any work is being done currently. Maybe someone else will chime in.

The animals I posted and you posted are just oddities likely from unknown reasons, one potential reason is soil. I had a friend collect some soil from the Kern Plateau and put it with a platensis from Madera County and it changed color similar to the animals posted here and the Kern Plateau animals.
Yes!!!!!! I knew it. :mrgreen: I know you haven't been posting much and I don't know how often you facebookers frequent read The Forum but I have brought this up several times over the past few years on different posts. The idea that elements in the soil are directly affecting/ influencing things like color and morphism,eventually leading to permanent morphism such as blackbellies and striped gophor snakes in the delta soil lands.
I actially ot the idea after reading something Heather posted (can't think of her FHF username right now) about snakes being able to absorb water thrpugh their scales or skin.
the fact that you guys tested that and got supporting results is amazing :thumb: :thumb: you guys rock!! :beer:
anything else you can tell me about that experiment I'm all ears...

Whewwww... I feel like dancing.



Sleepytime now :sleep:

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 1974
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: What do you call this lilac salamander...?

Post by Porter » December 24th, 2018, 2:14 pm

Aright, as I'm weeding through my seemingly endless tangle mesh of 2018 photography, I came across these photos that I took mid April... I remember I wanted to add them here after Chads response. Then may or may not be evidence of what I'm suggesting, but they definitely relate to the post subject.

Is this evidence for color absorption? My thoughts are....

1) I photographed the rustic metal cover in which it was flipped under. I have found gopher snakes, kingsnakes, and valley garters beneath it. This is the only individual found displaying this patchy delta coloring. I'm no metal expert, but Id say maybe its thick dense rusted tin, steel or iron. Could this color be a washed down though the soil in winter rains where this snake was wintering and absorbed into the scales ability to absorb moisture? If so, look at the contradicting ventral scale evidence.

2)Have delta blackbellies been found in the past that displayed only patchy delta coloring?

3)Has anything like this ever been observed in other species?

4)Simply stained?


Ok, that's all I got. Sometimes I come up with some crazy ideas and I know I've thrown around the idea a few times on different posts of mineral absorption being a possibility of snakes, such as speckled rattlers, to absorb their environments natural colors. And in regards to morphs and how they seem to occur in higher numbers where saltwater is close by...Deltas, desert groundwater, ect… Or the agents that give the illusion of that color in regards to light. Could pollutants also be DNA effecting morphage that could be passed on to young....?

Gotta go, pressed for time. I included the eye to display normality in the individual. The lampro guys out they may notice something. im no king expert on how much they vary between blackbelly and norms... maybe someone sees something there?




ImageDSC_0298-2 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageDSC_0710 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageDSC_0701-3 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageDSC_0715 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageDSC_0748 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageDSC_0782 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

Post Reply