Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

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Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by klawnskale » February 20th, 2012, 12:39 pm


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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by KingCam » February 20th, 2012, 12:48 pm

As a deer hunter (I hunt for meat. I don't kill something unless I'm going to butcher it and eat it.), I have a very poor outlook on "high-paying trophy hunters." I think it's wrong to kill an animal just for the sake of putting a trophy on the wall. I think it's also pathetic that someone will pay $10,000 to have someone hold their hand in the field, show them where to sit, and tell them when to pull the trigger. What's the point? That's not even hunting, not even in the loosest interpretation of the word. That's killing, and for no good reason. I'd image these outfitters also feed you, wipe your ass, and tuck you in at night. If they don't they should, at that price.

Now to be killing natural predators, just so rich city boys can go shoot their trophies? It's despicable, to say the VERY LEAST. :x :x

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Judson » February 20th, 2012, 1:17 pm

"Hunting generates up to $2 million a year in revenue for the company, with hunters paying up to $20,000 to shoot elk."

"Tejon Ranch agreed to pay $100,000 in penalties, $21,500 to the fish and game department to cover the costs of its investigation, and $15,000 in restitution"

I'm no math genius but to me it sounds like the killing of lions will continue. I still see profits...

-Isaac

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by KingCam » February 20th, 2012, 1:52 pm

John Vanek wrote:I would gladly trade the life of a few elk so some "city boys" can get their trophy, if it means that 270,000 acres are left undeveloped.
I can't argue with that.
John Vanek wrote:"city boys" (and this is a huge generalization, I can bet there are rich country boys participating as well)
I know. Much of what I portrayed in that opinion consisted of (gross) generalizations. (Because I was speaking in general :P)

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by yolodave » February 20th, 2012, 4:38 pm

Something not included in the article is that the Chandler family, the publisher of the Los Angeles Times ( and this article ) also has controlling interest in the Tejon Ranch.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by jonathan » February 21st, 2012, 9:14 pm

Way to be a whistleblower. So much stuff like that goes on without anyone willing to stand up and do the honest thing.

All the pigs on that land would be better off dead, by hunters, lions, whatever. But I don't mind the idea of trophy elk hunting being used to subsidize land that won't be developed.


p.s. - of the 270,000 acres, I think 40,000 or so actually is going to be developed, but the other 230,000 should be safe now.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by hellihooks » February 22nd, 2012, 3:10 pm

I thought you could get a permit to hunt Cougar in Ca. Why the hell didn't they just have legal hunters hunt cougars? jim

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Mike Waters » February 22nd, 2012, 3:38 pm

Cougars can only be killed with a depredation permit. I'm not sure but I think they might have to use a state trapper to kill then as well. I might add, he didn't quit he was fired and not for this reason. He tried to raise a stink blaming others for the death of the lions and it fell back in his lap.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by hellihooks » February 22nd, 2012, 3:47 pm

Thx Mike... that explains it. A girl I know had such a permit, and had talked me into trying to bag it for her. She was losing cattle. jim

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Jimi » February 22nd, 2012, 4:50 pm

Opinions?....
About what? There's quite a bit here.

That 1990 mtn lion voter initiative came from, and has since caused, all sorts of mischief. It's a travesty that California residents, and perhaps interested non-residents, cannot legally utilize their wildlife that by statute is to be managed 1) for their use and 2) its own perpetual existence. And that to have it managed they have to pay for the service, rather than have it pay for itself. Setting wildlife (or most other...) policy by direct democracy is a terrible mistake - the general public has no idea what the hell it's doing, it's a recipe for disaster. California has got a serious problem with all those ballot initiatives in my opinion. They were meant to solve a problem (gridlocked or non-responsive govt), but the cure is bad medicine.

Owning property costs a lot of money year in, year out even if you let it go to crap. Actually being a good steward of a large property is incredibly expensive. Large private parcels need to generate income. Or they'll be subdivided and developed.

Some folks have talked about canned hunts and such. To me those are an unfortunate - but still there, and growing - fact of modern life. Getting something interesting and tasty for the freezer - the only sensible reason I can see for killing, pre-processing, packing out, and final-processing a game animal - seems to have mostly fallen by the wayside in this country. Nowadays it's all "huge racks", "monster muleys" and all that noise. Seems like it coincided with all those "reality TV" shows, I dunno. Monkey see monkey do? Throw money in and what do you get? There's a lot of problems coming from this social change. Same basic idea as those super PACS, and growing income inequality - fewer people exerting more influence over the rest of us, leaving more and more folks feeling helpless, alienated, and pissed off at the world.

Anyway, what I think bugged you most - not saying that just whacking those cats was right - far, far from it - but people need to recognize the rule of unintended consequences (of e.g., the 1990 initiative), and the lengths some people will go to, to manage their problems if they can't get some help. This stuff is not that uncommon with wildlife. Depredation programs rarely satisfy landowners, because they're rarely aggressive or precisely-targeted enough to make the apparent problem go away.
I still see profits...
Yup.

Cheers,
Jimi

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by hellihooks » February 22nd, 2012, 5:30 pm

I admire what B. Howard (former big game hunter) did... was allowed to buy a Bighorn sheep tag, a week before anyone else, for a VERY hefty price ($30 G?) Took as his 'trophy' an old decrepid male with a broken horn. All the $ he paid went to BH sheep conservation. Nice to see 'rich folks' do the right thing, once in a while, rather than just try to get richer... :thumb: jim

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by klawnskale » February 22nd, 2012, 7:08 pm

The only legitimate reason I could see for dispatching a mountain lion is if it proved to be a human killer; and even there I sometimes question the legitmacy of such an action. It's unfortunate that there are people who have developed an 'us against them' attitude regarding native wildlife. They just don't like accepting the idea that the other fauna were there first on the land they are now using and regard a naturally occuring apex predator such as a mountain lion as an annoyance or imposition on their life and are motivated by factors such as greed. Especially when it comes to hunting. An armed human hunter I would guess statistically would have a higher success rate of killing an elk or deer than a mountain lion. So why be annoyed if a mountain lion is able to kill an elk.? And when it comes to cattle and ranchers; well that's big bone of contention with influential environmental groups such as Western Watersheds Management now suing BLM to try and curtail the free ranging of cattle in California habitat critical to endangered or threatened species. A double edged sword here, though. Further restrict the free ranging of cattle and sheep and then the invasive plant species become more of a problem. The problem herein is that humans as a majority are reluctant to share or take into consideration the long term repercussions for their deletrious actions.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Biker Dave » February 22nd, 2012, 8:11 pm

Side note...

Big Game Canned Hunts have been happening long before the stank of reality tv settled in. Decades before.

Dave

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by HerperBrewer » February 22nd, 2012, 8:27 pm

I had known about this case for quite a while. My mother's father was the President of the Tejon Ranch Corporation during the 1980's and my mom and her whole side of the family grew up in the houses at old headquarters near Fort Tejon. I had hunted with Bron Sanders (the whistleblower) a number of times, and I can say that from my perspective he was a smart and dedicated professional - and I am sad that all of this happened on the ranch.

Without defending the ranch's actions, I want to make it clear that the absolute ban on hunting Pumas in CA is something that should really be looked at. I don't see why they wouldn't allow regulated hunting of cougars when they allow, for example, a desert bighorn lotto.

I have actually been lucky enough to see mountain lions on the ranch while hunting for wild pigs, they are damn beautiful animals and I am sorry to hear that so many were destroyed.


Photos of the ranch from my most recent trip:

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by klawnskale » February 23rd, 2012, 7:47 am

HerperBrewer: keep killing those pesky piggies! So far as I'm concerned there should be no bag limits and the entire year should be open season on them! Nice oreganus, BTW....

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Mike Waters » February 23rd, 2012, 9:25 am

Klawn, there is no bag limit and season is all year. You do have to buy tags though. If anyone knows of public land where pigs are abundant I would be happy to take care of a few of them.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Jimi » February 23rd, 2012, 11:39 am

The only legitimate reason I could see for dispatching a mountain lion is if it proved to be a human killer
I'm either missing something here, or interjecting something that doesn't belong. Are you saying a fair-chase hunt on a sustainably-managed population would be illegitimate?
Western Watersheds
A cuss word of the foulest variety, like PETA. Those folks are WAY more part of the problem than the solution to environmental degradation. As I type they're seriously screwing up sage-grouse habitat management (including brood-rearing, riparian & other "moist" habitats) in our most important population in the state. Everything gets thrown under the bus so they can tilt at their windmill. They're the fringe of the extreme.



FNAWS does good work - is that where Mr. Howard's tag-money went?
Decades before.
True 'nuff. And we could say the same about free-handling rattlesnakes, staging bum fights, and so on. Seems like all kinds of tasteless things just got way more popular with satellite TV and the internet.
the absolute ban on hunting Pumas in CA is something that should really be looked at
Absolutely - call it a 20+ year experiment, evaluate the outcomes (intended and otherwise), and end it. CA could probably sustainably harvest a couple hundred a year, help rebuild the wildlife mgt trust fund, and greatly diminish the growing human-cat conflicts that are, strategically-speaking, WAY more of a long-term threat to cat persistence than well-managed hunting is. The latter term is emphatically not an oxymoron.

Cheers,
Jimi

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by hellihooks » February 23rd, 2012, 12:20 pm

Jimi wrote:
FNAWS does good work - is that where Mr. Howard's tag-money went?

Jimi
Went back, to fact check. He paid 70,000 for tag 001, in 87, in a State (?) raffle... so not sure where the $ went. Mr Howard is a Board Member of Bighorn Research Institute. Although I couldn't find the exact article, I remember reading that he took an old one-horn ram, instead of a younger dominant (trophy) male.
We were herping buddies, for a while, back in the 70's, and I credit him with 'saving my hand' from amputation, after my 1st Helleri bite... Super cool guy... but we lost touch decades ago... :roll: Here's to you, Bob... :beer: :D jim

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Biker Dave » February 23rd, 2012, 6:09 pm

I can hear the bacon sizzling on the grill !!! Mmmmmmm,,, bacon.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by klawnskale » February 23rd, 2012, 9:15 pm

Jimi wrote:
The only legitimate reason I could see for dispatching a mountain lion is if it proved to be a human killer
I'm either missing something here, or interjecting something that doesn't belong. Are you saying a fair-chase hunt on a sustainably-managed population would be illegitimate?

Well, Jimi, tthat's where our philosophies regarding hunting differ. So far as I'm concerned, if you're not going to eat it, then you shouldn't hunt it. And the current status of the mountain lion species is certainly not at the glut level as eastern White Tailed Deer. Just to hunt a mountain lion to put a taxidermy trophy on your wall or as a conversation piece is vanity BS. It really annoys me when fish and game agencies think it's in their best interest to allow hunting of an animal like this just to generate income to keep themselves viable using the concept of expensive permits for the sake of 'wildflife management' when what we're really talking about here is job security; not any resultant benefit to the target species.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by FunkyRes » February 24th, 2012, 4:23 am

If done right, Cougar hunting could help with natural selection.

For natural selection purposes, obviously no traps or guns would be allowed.

Allow 200 people a year to hunt cougars with nothing but their bare hands, and natural selection would help weed the idiots out of Homo sapiens thus improving the species.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Steve Bledsoe » February 24th, 2012, 11:43 am

At the rate at which we're destroying habitat, the big cats will be gone before we know it in most of the state without shooting a single animal.

IMO - All of our native predators should be completely protected. We (humans) have already killed off too many of them. Why should we allow the Mountain Lion to go the way of the Grizzly Bear in CA?

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Fundad » February 24th, 2012, 12:36 pm

The DFG kills appox 14 a year.. For Public safety reasons.

It's ok though they know what they are doing.. :lol: :lol:

Personally I could not pull the trigger on one, unless a loved ones life, my dogs life, or my life was truly in danger..

Fundad

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Ballinherper » February 24th, 2012, 1:48 pm

Good they sould pay !!!

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by RLewisH » February 24th, 2012, 1:58 pm

Jimi wrote:
Opinions?....
About what? There's quite a bit here.

That 1990 mtn lion voter initiative came from, and has since caused, all sorts of mischief. It's a travesty that California residents, and perhaps interested non-residents, cannot legally utilize their wildlife that by statute is to be managed 1) for their use and 2) its own perpetual existence. And that to have it managed they have to pay for the service, rather than have it pay for itself. Setting wildlife (or most other...) policy by direct democracy is a terrible mistake - the general public has no idea what the hell it's doing, it's a recipe for disaster. California has got a serious problem with all those ballot initiatives in my opinion. They were meant to solve a problem (gridlocked or non-responsive govt), but the cure is bad medicine.

Owning property costs a lot of money year in, year out even if you let it go to crap. Actually being a good steward of a large property is incredibly expensive. Large private parcels need to generate income. Or they'll be subdivided and developed.

Some folks have talked about canned hunts and such. To me those are an unfortunate - but still there, and growing - fact of modern life. Getting something interesting and tasty for the freezer - the only sensible reason I can see for killing, pre-processing, packing out, and final-processing a game animal - seems to have mostly fallen by the wayside in this country. Nowadays it's all "huge racks", "monster muleys" and all that noise. Seems like it coincided with all those "reality TV" shows, I dunno. Monkey see monkey do? Throw money in and what do you get? There's a lot of problems coming from this social change. Same basic idea as those super PACS, and growing income inequality - fewer people exerting more influence over the rest of us, leaving more and more folks feeling helpless, alienated, and pissed off at the world.

Anyway, what I think bugged you most - not saying that just whacking those cats was right - far, far from it - but people need to recognize the rule of unintended consequences (of e.g., the 1990 initiative), and the lengths some people will go to, to manage their problems if they can't get some help. This stuff is not that uncommon with wildlife. Depredation programs rarely satisfy landowners, because they're rarely aggressive or precisely-targeted enough to make the apparent problem go away.
I still see profits...
Yup.

Cheers,
Jimi
I could not have said it better myself. For those who are interested in learning more about cougar management, I cannot recommend it enough, get The Beast In The Garden by David Baron.

http://www.amazon.com/Beast-Garden-Mode ... B000OZ1ST8

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Jimi » February 25th, 2012, 2:28 pm

our philosophies regarding hunting differ. So far as I'm concerned, if you're not going to eat it, then you shouldn't hunt it. And the current status of the mountain lion species is certainly not at the glut level as eastern White Tailed Deer. Just to hunt a mountain lion to put a taxidermy trophy on your wall or as a conversation piece is vanity BS.
That's cool, we're all entitled to our own opinions. Perhaps we would agree more than you allow here, or I reveal. Personally, privately, I wouldn't want to shoot anything I wasn't going to eat either, and taxidermy kinda gives me the creeps. On the other hand, you've never had fun until you've run a trained pack of hounds and treed a cat (even without killing it, just training dogs). Some people might find this disgusting, and would like it to never happen; maybe so much so they'd try to ban it. Maybe they'd even get what they wanted. Hell, everybody should get at least some of what they want once in a while. But personally and also professionally I am very leery of trying to de-legitimize, and take away from people, certain uses of wildlife that are not presently, clearly, outside the broad bounds (more on that below). I wish more people were equally leery.
It really annoys me when fish and game agencies think it's in their best interest to allow hunting of an animal like this just to generate income to keep themselves viable using the concept of expensive permits for the sake of 'wildflife management' when what we're really talking about here is job security; not any resultant benefit to the target species.
Alright, now there is a steaming pile of something stinky. Previously here I've waxed pedantic on the constitutional, statutory, and case law (the sideboards) underlying how Americans manage wildlife. You must have missed that so I'll go again. State wildlife agencies are managers - they execute the expressed will of "deciders" - policymakers. Those deciders can be Wildlife Commissions, Legislatures, or (God help us all) people who vote on ballot initiatives.

At the most basic level, the broad bounds on all of us - managers, deciders, and the beneficiaries - are that American wildlife is supposed to be managed for 2 sometimes-conflicting things: 1) reasonable access/use by the public, and 2) perpetual existence of the wildlife population. As democratic societies we can have a hard time agreeing on what all that means - what's reasonable access, what's an acceptable use, what impact rate or use shall we select or permit to ensure/allow perpetual existence AND use, etc. What all that means changes over time - it's never settled forever. There's always later, unless we screw up royally and lose a species forever - then it's not available to fight over any more.

Some groups in society (e.g., agriculture, real estate) have always been powerfully influential over the deciders. Sometimes you get shifts. The agencies are always constrained in the range of actions available to them, and the range is always evolving. Managers can't talk back to deciders - beneficiaries (voters, hunters, animal-rights folks, whatever) have to do that. Deciders and beneficiaries are increasingly dismissive of the managers' professionalism and even integrity (read your post again?). I will point out that "resultant BENEFIT to the target species" is not a requirement of manager action. Actions just have to not threaten the perpetual existence of the wildlife - sometimes a native animal population or even whole species has to be suppressed - not eliminated - in order to reduce conflicts between human groups. Misunderstanding roles, purposes, and constraints others face is a sure route to false and defamatory conclusions.

Along those lines, it sure seems that most deciders and beneficiaries relish the luxury of remaining blissfully ignorant of how hard (shall I say nearly impossible) it is for ANY manager agency to find enough operating space to actually be successful at their job, when squeezed and buffeted from all the beneficiaries and deciders, who so often want mutually-exclusive things. The best the managers can do is facilitate a dialog (kinda like what I try to do here...) that hopefully concludes in some kind of clear direction to manage towards. Along the way they absorb all kinds of slings and arrows about self-dealing, incompetence, laziness, and what-have-you. I challenge anyone to walk tall for 30-plus years in such an environment. Just slip on the mocs for a jog around the block.

A couple or parting questions - if state wildlife agencies were so free to act in their own best interests why on Earth do you think they'd always be so damn broke? If there was so much job security why on Earth do you think they'd all be hemorrhaging employees like Ebola victims? Privately, I fully agree that as a society we are way, way too dependent on the user-pays business model for managing wildlife - but until enough beneficiaries tell the deciders 1) they want the deciders to come up with a new system, and oh by the way 2) they are also willing to pay for it...that's what we got.

Cheers,
Jimi

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by RLewisH » February 25th, 2012, 2:53 pm

klawnskale wrote:The only legitimate reason I could see for dispatching a mountain lion is if it proved to be a human killer; and even there I sometimes question the legitmacy of such an action. It's unfortunate that there are people who have developed an 'us against them' attitude regarding native wildlife. They just don't like accepting the idea that the other fauna were there first on the land they are now using and regard a naturally occuring apex predator such as a mountain lion as an annoyance or imposition on their life and are motivated by factors such as greed. Especially when it comes to hunting. An armed human hunter I would guess statistically would have a higher success rate of killing an elk or deer than a mountain lion. So why be annoyed if a mountain lion is able to kill an elk.? And when it comes to cattle and ranchers; well that's big bone of contention with influential environmental groups such as Western Watersheds Management now suing BLM to try and curtail the free ranging of cattle in California habitat critical to endangered or threatened species. A double edged sword here, though. Further restrict the free ranging of cattle and sheep and then the invasive plant species become more of a problem. The problem herein is that humans as a majority are reluctant to share or take into consideration the long term repercussions for their deletrious actions.
The problem with waiting until a human fatality happens is, well, pretty obvious. Lions, like all other predators, adapt to the prey. If deer start feeding in residential areas during the day, predators will follow. Initially, this might not seem like a big issue. The danger lies within the fact that by hunting in populated areas, human-lion interaction is guaranteed to rise.

When measures are not taken to deter the problem, encounters continue to happen. The result of this continued rise of encounters is the habituation of lions. Lions begin to react to humans in an unnatural, usually dangerous way. Habituation, especially populated areas like California where there is a higher chance of it occurring, is in my opinion the largest threat faced by the species. Not only is it extremely dangerous to humans, but even more so to the lions, which have to be eliminated (killed) if they become habituated.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Jimi » February 25th, 2012, 4:44 pm

Habituation, especially populated areas like California where there is a higher chance of it occurring, is in my opinion the largest threat faced by the species.
Exactly. Or perhaps rather, it will contribute to the ongoing increase in well-publicized, unpleasant-for-people interactions that will turn the tide of public attitudes away from the silly "save the cute imperiled kitties" to an equally silly "let's kill them all before they kill us and our children".

Modern "denatured" people don't give these animals their due; they're very smart, adaptable, and resilient. Not as much as us perhaps...but I digress. Killing off a percentage every year, with many of the survivors having been literally hounded, will help them maintain their innate fear of humans derived from 15000 or more years of co-existence. Stop scaring them and they quickly lose that fear.

These are big cats. All the ones I've seen on foot (about 8) that I hadn't harassed seemed as sassy and contemptuous as a house cat, but obviously large and skilled enough to easily kill a person. From my first-hand 1:1 observations I conclude they make OK company if they have some respect, but I have no doubt if they lose that respect, people will be killed and those folks' families will be unhappy. Opportunists will jump into the fray, and who knows where things will go.

Preventive maintenance goes a long way. Cheap insurance, and better for the cats.

Cheers,
Jimi

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by HerperBrewer » February 25th, 2012, 10:10 pm

Hey guys, I am sure to ruffle a few feather saying this - so I will qualify it: I am currently in college studying wildlife biology and I plan to become a conservation biologist. I plan to devote my life to conserving earth's biodiversity, and I believe that saving our natural heritage is THE MOST important thing that we can do as a species to plan for the future.

Now, I also believe that as long as you don't endanger the continuation of a species or population itself that it is OKAY to use animals, even consumptively, for 'fun'.

For example, I have no problem with going to Africa and shooting an Elephant to keep as a trophy so long as you are taking from a population that is appropriately managed. If you have a problem with that, or taking pumas, then your problem lies more in your personal distaste in shooting such a beautiful creature and not with any real conservation argument (because I classified my statement with the condition that the hunting be properly managed).

I can understand that for many people it is unappetizing to watch someone shoot a beautiful predator like a lion, puma, grizzly bear, etc. but the fact is that it CAN be done right and that it is an exciting activity that many people enjoy. Like it or not, those old rich men who go to africa to kill big game care 100x more about animals and conserving them than your average 'forward minded' person - and the money that trophy hunting generates is an indispensable tool for conservation.

I am also of the opinion that one way to gain the greatest respect for wildlife is to pursue it in a hunt, and if I get the chance to hunt puma in CA I will definitely take it: what better way to get closer to one of those elegant beasts.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Jimi » February 26th, 2012, 8:12 am

I am currently in college studying wildlife biology and I plan to become a conservation biologist. I plan to devote my life to conserving earth's biodiversity, and I believe that saving our natural heritage is THE MOST important thing that we can do as a species to plan for the future.
Good on ya. There are a variety of career routes open to you, in diverse sectors of our economy & society - academia, private enterprise, government - local, state, federal, international, and NGO (even WWP). But you're not looking at something easy or remunerative. I'd be happy to share my insights and experiences if you like.
it is an exciting activity that many people enjoy
Exactly. And just taking it away from those people is not really a desirable or available option. The human animal likes - needs - to interact with other animals. The interaction takes many forms. Unless the particular interaction some person or group pursues or seeks is really beyond the pale, the rest of us ought to be extremely circumspect of proposals to remove or deny the wish of that person or group.
going to Africa
It's worth pointing out that the ways contemporary societies manage the wildlife they live with are pretty diverse. The "safari countries" of eastern and southern Africa have completely different approaches from us. Completely different legal philosophies. Completely different social situations interacting with completely different suites of wildlife, all generating some pretty serious conflicts. What a challenge to manage. Yikes.

Cheers,
Jimi

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by klawnskale » February 26th, 2012, 8:59 am

And after reading all of this rhetorical rationalizing it is basically NOT the other species that need managing but our own disgusting disgraceful gluttony and egotistical actions as a species that needs
managing; regardless of all these explanations, the onus will always originate back onto us. We created the conflicts in the first place. And if you hunt that lion don't use firearms or dogs and you better eat it. What a waste. Better yet, leave the damn cats alone! Hunt feral pigs if you like to kill and want to make a positive contribution. I have no qualms over hunting invasive species. Hunting other predators is simply for ego gratification. You think turning it into a stuffed trophy to brag about is showing it respect? How about learning to share habitat with it? Even the Maasai discontinued hunting lions when they began to learn it would be more economically beneficial for them
not to because of the profits from ecotourism and that they were also compensated for any livestock losses. If this tribe with a longstanding heritage of hunting lions can make changes, certainly other people as well with understanding and education could. People CAN change their behaviors and attitudes. The problem is most people are unwilling to.:
http://www.good.is/post/poptech-09-maas ... -together/

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Speckled Rosy » February 26th, 2012, 11:29 am

HerperBrewer wrote:I am also of the opinion that one way to gain the greatest respect for wildlife is to pursue it in a hunt, and if I get the chance to hunt puma in CA I will definitely take it: what better way to get closer to one of those elegant beasts.
The best way to get close to an amazing animal, is to kill it?

I agree, there are appropriate ways to manage wildlife, by allowing take.. But in this case I'd say it sounds more like they were literally trying to wipe them out on the ranch, rather than manage in any way, shape or form. I'm no expert on game and predators, but I've heard mountain lions have huge home ranges, sometimes measured in hundreds of square miles. And to kill that many lions is just sad. IMO

-Dan

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by HerperBrewer » February 26th, 2012, 9:51 pm

Speckled Rosy: I should have clarified that killing other animals isn't necessarily the "best way" to get closer to them, but that it is one way and that that method should be considered valid.

I also did not mean for my comment to, in any way, try to justify the actions of the ranch employees dealing with cougars. I completely disagree with their course of action.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Jimi » February 27th, 2012, 3:19 pm

it is basically NOT the other species that need managing but our own ... actions as a species that needs
managing; regardless of all these explanations, the onus will always originate back onto us
For the most part - exactly, except "as a species" - I'd say "actions as individuals and groups". A mere quibble. The vast majority of wildlife management is people management. There are really only 2 other "dials" - managing habitat, and managing (killing, harassing, or protecting) animals. For the most part, the animals don't actually need managing, unless they're emergency cases - condors in the 1980's or whatever. We manage people - their desires, their needs, their conflicts with animals and with each other.
Even the Maasai discontinued hunting lions when they began to learn it would be more economically beneficial for them
not to because of the profits from ecotourism and that they were also compensated for any livestock losses.
Whoa - ho! You make our point for us. (Except I wouldn't denigrate the Masai with "even" - what are they stupider than the rest of us or something?)

The point being that IF people are given some reasonable, workable alternatives to choose from, AND IF they are allowed the freedom to make the choice that they think is best for them, THEN they are generally capable of making choices that are good for them and will allow wildlife species to persist. People can indeed change their behaviors and attitudes; it is easier if they're not too boxed in. Stock operators in California don't have many legal alternatives right now, so they're attracted to illegal ones, because they have REAL problems that need real solutions. "Just take it, dry" is not a solution. If owners of large ranches could make a few thousand bucks per guided lion hunt year in and year out, I truly doubt they'd be shooting them secretly, leaving them to rot, or risking unsustainable levels of take. They'd be figuring out which lion was which, and where they lived or visited regularly, and which ones were "bad neighbors" and which ones they could live with - and they'd target the ones they didn't like, and leave the rest for breeding stock.
We created the conflicts in the first place.
Yes. The 1990 hunting ban ballot initiative stoked a major conflict w/ landowners by removing almost all the income potential from harboring mtn lions on one's property, and at the same time increased the downside risk by allowing lions numbers (and stock and game losses) to rise. In addition, in the US we have never done a good job compensating livestock operators for their losses to predators. Yes there are compensation programs, but the hurdles to getting paid (erected to prevent waste and fraud...) are too high. I'll say it again - large private "open spaces" need to generate an income, or else they'll be subdivided and developed.
Hunting other predators is simply for ego gratification
Too simplistic by far, but sure there's an element of truth. So what? People have egos. They need gratification. Some forms of gratification simply cannot be allowed, like child sex abuse or something. Others - sustainably, legally hunting animals, we can live with. And should.
it sounds more like they were literally trying to wipe them out on the ranch, rather than manage in any way, shape or form. I'm no expert on game and predators, but I've heard mountain lions have huge home ranges, sometimes measured in hundreds of square miles. And to kill that many lions is just sad.
Yes they have large ranges, especially the males, and just whacking a bunch like that is disgusting. I wish the landowner had recourse to, and had made use of, better options. But, precisely because these are wide-ranging animals, it is impossible to hunt them to eradication on a large wild property without strong coordination with all neighbors over a huge region. Look how long and hard it was to get rid of wolves in the western US. Basically the feds had to declare war on them, and that war took decades to "win". There's nothing like that going on at & around Tejon. Coyotes not withstanding...

I've said my piece. I yield the final word. Peace.
Jimi

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Speckled Rosy » February 27th, 2012, 5:48 pm

HerperBrewer wrote:Speckled Rosy: I should have clarified that killing other animals isn't necessarily the "best way" to get closer to them, but that it is one way and that that method should be considered valid.

I also did not mean for my comment to, in any way, try to justify the actions of the ranch employees dealing with cougars. I completely disagree with their course of action.
No problem, I should have read the whole thread, before commenting.. I saw your first response.. didn't know you had that much expeirience in that area. My grandparents have a house up in Cummings Valley, just on the other side of the mountain from tejon. I just remember mt. lions being a rare, cool sight and it just sucks to think, you may not see one you could have seen... I just like getting to see em..
HerperBrewer wrote:Yes they have large ranges, especially the males, and just whacking a bunch like that is disgusting. I wish the landowner had recourse to, and had made use of, better options. But, precisely because these are wide-ranging animals, it is impossible to hunt them to eradication on a large wild property without strong coordination with all neighbors over a huge region. Look how long and hard it was to get rid of wolves in the western US. Basically the feds had to declare war on them, and that war took decades to "win". There's nothing like that going on at & around Tejon. Coyotes not withstanding...
I thought about that too and it makes sense they would just filter back in from bordering areas... All I'm saying, is that animals like these cats, are symbols that this place we live, isn't quite blown to sh!t just yet... there's still wild places.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by klawnskale » February 28th, 2012, 1:56 am

Jimi: it's so obvious how you love to manipulate my opinions to make it appear that I am actually in agreement with yours and your rhetoric. Nothing could be further from the truth. Quit with the BS about loss/profits; making money off wildlife. Unfortunately, such goals only help to perpetuate an ugly disease. Wildlife shouldn't be about profits or labeling wild animals as 'bad' or 'good'. It should be about changing our value system as a species through tolerance, education and understanding. It's time to take the approaches of conservation beyond the groundwork layed by Teddy Roosevelt; because let's face it, the world has changed alot since then. If anything I am beginning to conclude that your outlooks are somewhat antiquated. But I suppose that can be said for many fish and game agencies..And BTW, I was not undermining the Maasai in my reference to them. If you missed my point,
if a culture such as the Maasai's which is heavily ingrained and centered around hunting lions for who knows how long, then what's to stop people in our country from changing? The promotion of mercenary stupidity.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Kelly Mc » February 28th, 2012, 6:09 am

It is said there are many mansions oh but the door for my fond vision would be infused in my grip with chimp like strength, as I plunge a Trophy Hunters face into bloody entrails and gastric offal. Weak and jealous of the wild who can soar, leap, run, and kill with their own powers. So weak they thrill to see them fall with a distant press of a pale, puny finger.

Trophy Hunter . . sorry about your penis.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Kelly Mc » February 28th, 2012, 6:33 am

HerperBrewer wrote:Hey guys, I am sure to ruffle a few feather saying this - so I will qualify it: I am currently in college studying wildlife biology and I plan to become a conservation biologist. I plan to devote my life to conserving earth's biodiversity, and I believe that saving our natural heritage is THE MOST important thing that we can do as a species to plan for the future.

Now, I also believe that as long as you don't endanger the continuation of a species or population itself that it is OKAY to use animals, even consumptively, for 'fun'.

For example, I have no problem with going to Africa and shooting an Elephant to keep as a trophy so long as you are taking from a population that is appropriately managed. If you have a problem with that, or taking pumas, then your problem lies more in your personal distaste in shooting such a beautiful creature and not with any real conservation argument (because I classified my statement with the condition that the hunting be properly managed).

I can understand that for many people it is unappetizing to watch someone shoot a beautiful predator like a lion, puma, grizzly bear, etc. but the fact is that it CAN be done right and that it is an exciting activity that many people enjoy. Like it or not, those old rich men who go to africa to kill big game care 100x more about animals and conserving them than your average 'forward minded' person - and the money that trophy hunting generates is an indispensable tool for conservation.

I am also of the opinion that one way to gain the greatest respect for wildlife is to pursue it in a hunt, and if I get the chance to hunt puma in CA I will definitely take it: what better way to get closer to one of those elegant beasts.
Gaining respect for wildlife by killing it is as rational as f****** for virginity.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Kelly Mc » February 28th, 2012, 7:19 am

For human population management - which , altough taboo to mention , would solve most of the worlds problems - how about this "fun and exciting activity "

A regular lottery for rich people to be sterilized , and the $ they would ordinarily use to send their talentless undermusculatured brats to college is henceforth Donated to various charities of the world - Any ones they choose.

Lotteries are Fun and Im sure privileged people wouldnt mind doing something useful for the good of the planet , to express a gracious thanks for their good fortune - Right?

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Kent VanSooy » February 28th, 2012, 7:59 am

So, who's entered some data lately??

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Kelly Mc » February 28th, 2012, 8:10 am

Kent VanSooy wrote:So, who's entered some data lately??
You are on the wrong thread Kent . People with ideas are talking on this one .

I Got It BTW .

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Kelly Mc » February 28th, 2012, 8:24 am

Edited .

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by monklet » February 28th, 2012, 8:36 am

HerperBrewer wrote:I am also of the opinion that one way to gain the greatest respect for wildlife is to pursue it in a hunt, and if I get the chance to hunt puma in CA I will definitely take it: what better way to get closer to one of those elegant beasts.
Surely you must be trolling? ...otherwise I might fear for your soul, if you have one.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Kent VanSooy » February 28th, 2012, 9:09 am

Kelly, I'm not sure you got my point - this is a NAFHA forum - debate is fine, but we try to involve everyone (kids included), so please keep that in mind.

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Kelly Mc » February 28th, 2012, 9:18 am

Oh . I thought you were taking a well timed shot at me for being too stupid to enter data in the data base .

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by hellihooks » February 28th, 2012, 9:27 am

25 years, 98 days, 9hrs, and 15 min ago, I had a face-to-face (within 5 ft) encounter with a Cougar that lasted 5-6 sec. I was down on one knee, examining a track he had left, when he came back up out of a ravine, so we were at 'eye-level'. He finally turned, and silently vanished back down into the ravine.
I went back to my van, sat there a while, and finished the last 2 beers from a 12-pac. I never drank again. jim

Kelly... those of us who know Kent, know that he is a master of the sublime, wherein seemingly simple statements/appeals actually speak volumes. Kinda like my story... :D jim

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Biker Dave » February 29th, 2012, 6:34 pm

Kelly Mc

Enough with the socialist propaganda. This is a herping forum.

Dave

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Jimi » February 29th, 2012, 7:38 pm

I've said my piece. I yield the final word.
Gotta retract that statement, ha ha, sorry guys if you're sick of seeing this thread bumped.

A wise person once said "Don't get in a pissing match with a skunk" and I'm going to try and live those words. I won't piss, and I think everyone here can avoid acting like a skunk. I'll go first, and try to "prove up".

Kent, Brad et al. - please bear with me. Hanna, chill for a sec? (Incidentally, why the pseudonym?)

As I read it, the driving purpose of NAFHA (that would be "we"...) is to get herp data into the hands of e.g., museum curators and herp managers, for the purpose of "advancing conservation". A common impediment to our shared ipurpose is lack of familiarity, or loss of trust, between "the amateurs" and "the pros". The reason I log on here and interact with you all, and why I agreed to be Rocky Mtn Chapter's conservation officer, is to try and mediate some of the misunderstandings, blind spots, and sometimes resulting conflicts between the 2 groups. I try to offer some perspective here that might help "the amateurs" understand some of the things that are opaque, irritating, mysterious, etc. about a slice of "the pro" community. (Incidentally - although it's not visible here, I do the same thing in the other direction, too - "liaison between" is in the conservation officer job description. Some of the misperceptions held about you all, by the state agency community, would amuse and disturb you.)

Sometimes an off-topic item provides an opportunity to try and accomplish that mediation, in an indirect way. Mtn lion management might be too radioactive a topic for that. My mistake, bad choice. So anyway, I select quotes and then respond to them, providing "facts" and opinions to try and accomplish that mediation, or explanation, or what-have-you. Dropping mountain lions as a specific topic, and sticking to generalities, I can try again:
Quit with the BS about loss/profits; making money off wildlife. Unfortunately, such goals only help to perpetuate an ugly disease.
Like I said, my personal preference is that we develop a workable, even superior, alternative to the user-pays business model that funds the overwhelming majority of wildlife management in this nation. However, we as a society have not yet done so. If you have any ideas that might work, take them to your state wildlife agency. Believe me, they are ALL quite aware of the need for evolution in the business model. Making money is not (just NOT, OK?) a goal, it's not about "profits". That's one of the flaws in the argument that government ought to operate like a business. In state wildlife agencies' case, simply preserving species, and people's access rights to them, are the fundamental constitutional and statutory goals. Money is required to achieve those goals. Right now users (hunters) are providing a lot of the money required to achieve those goals. Most of it, most by a lot.
Wildlife shouldn't be about profits or labeling wild animals as 'bad' or 'good'. It should be about changing our value system as a species through tolerance, education and understanding.
I agree about profits and "good" or "bad" labels. Extending the latter thought - just like it isn't good or bad, wildlife isn't "about" anything (certainly not "changing our values system as a species") - it just is. Until it just isn't, any more. Making sure "it just isn't, any more" does not happen is the responsibility of "the pros", working in the interests of "everybody". Including but not limited to "the general public" as well as "the amateurs".

The "amateurs" sometimes want to exercise their proper rights to weigh in with self-collected data (NAFHA etc), opinions (anyone), preferences etc. Presumably in the hopes that their data are used to make management decisions to improve herp conservation and on-the-ground status. My belief that it is a proper right and not an annoying presumption for citizen-scientists to collect quality data, and expect it to be used, is what impels me to participate as a member of this community.
It's time to take the approaches of conservation beyond the groundwork layed by Teddy Roosevelt; because let's face it, the world has changed alot since then.
The approaches of conservation have gone so far beyond the groundwork laid by TR, Aldo Leopold, etc that it beggars the imagination. And yes, the world has changed. What have not changed are human nature and basic human interests. I share EO Wilson's opinion that humans are biophilic. I also believe that human nature includes a hunting drive. The fraction of Americans who express that drive with wildlife is shrinking but I doubt it will ever go to zero. Basic human interests include an income sufficient to provide food, shelter, clothing, and some diversion. That's why I kept bringing up money. When wildlife threatens people's income or income potential, people react. Legally or otherwise.
If anything I am beginning to conclude that your outlooks are somewhat antiquated. But I suppose that can be said for many fish and game agencies..
Mmm, sidestepping the truly gentle ad hominem attack, I'll just report that my youthful idealism has been seared in a crucible of hard-fisted realism. Not burnt to a crisp, I'm still pink in the middle, but I'm pretty tough & crusty on the outside. Realistic, you might say.

So - we all have to set aside some of our attentions to the way things ought to be, and devote some effort to things as they are. If anyone here wishes to effectively influence wildlife management, let alone (hello out there!) to enjoy a career in it, one has to understand and to some extent accept and work with the way things are. We can also work towards creating the way things ought to be. But there are limits to the rates of change society, interest groups, and agencies will accept. This actually remains one of my biggest personal challenges; I do retain some idealism, and I pay for it.

To put this notion of "accepting the way things ARE" into NAFHA-relevant terms, it is indeed true that all state "fish and game" agencies advocate "wildlife utilization", which often means hunting. It is also true that many of the very same agencies, in what appears to be an inconsistency, seem to be so opposed to "utilization" of herps (which in extreme cases can just include helping them off the road) that they erect a frustrating maze of barriers between herps and would-be herp "users". One of the potential uses of NAFHA-provided data could be to relax or refine some of the restrictions or outright bans (even to the point of "no-touch") on interacting with herps that some folks here think are way too restrictive. A steady stream of NAFHA-provided, perhaps agency-coordinated or -requested data could ensure sustainable access to the herps we all want to interact with, as well as provide a trip-wire to detect problems coming down the pike. I think we all know that the way it IS is, the agencies aren't out there collecting much herp data on their own. And without more staff or money, or re-purposing existing staff or money (and there are severe constraints on this) they aren't going to start.

So - the way things ARE is, most herps are managed by state biologists with a non-game, non-utilization background. One way to have herps managed more like other wildlife (less reflexively hands-off), would be for you all to engage the non-game biologists (or, failing there, engage the deciders - wildlife boards etc) from a more "traditional" perspective: demand reasonable access to your wildlife. Right now, with the user-pays business model I keep mentioning, that would be facilitated by offering to pay for things like stamps and licenses, abide by reasonable bag and possession limits, and participate maturely in stakeholder processes.

It's going to be hard to understand working from a traditional perspective, if you simply refuse to understand or worse yet seek to invalidate traditional perspectives.

Did I pass my own challenge - no pissing, no skunking? Was this effective communication? Hope so.

Cheers,
Jimi

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Kelly Mc » February 29th, 2012, 7:43 pm

Biker Dave wrote:Kelly Mc

Enough with the socialist propaganda. This is a herping forum.

Dave

I dont even know what socialists actually do , or believe . Humans in groups gross me out .

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Re: Ouch! I Had No Idea This Was Happening...

Post by Fundad » February 29th, 2012, 8:31 pm

Jimi,

I for one am thankful that you are with us (still).

Your thoughts are refreshing, and if I don't say so myself intelligent and well thought out.

To put this notion of "accepting the way things ARE" into NAFHA-relevant terms, it is indeed true that all state "fish and game" agencies advocate "wildlife utilization", which often means hunting. It is also true that many of the very same agencies, in what appears to be an inconsistency, seem to be so opposed to "utilization" of herps (which in extreme cases can just include helping them off the road) that they erect a frustrating maze of barriers between herps and would-be herp "users". One of the potential uses of NAFHA-provided data could be to relax or refine some of the restrictions or outright bans (even to the point of "no-touch") on interacting with herps that some folks here think are way too restrictive. A steady stream of NAFHA-provided, perhaps agency-coordinated or -requested data could ensure sustainable access to the herps we all want to interact with, as well as provide a trip-wire to detect problems coming down the pike. I think we all know that the way it IS is, the agencies aren't out there collecting much herp data on their own. And without more staff or money, or re-purposing existing staff or money (and there are severe constraints on this) they aren't going to start.
I agree, and very well said. This is one of the reasons we founded NAFHA and very much one of the main topics of the conversations that started NAFHA. I wish we had more people like you amongst us.
Some of the misperceptions held about you all, by the state agency community, would amuse and disturb you.
:lol: :lol: There is no doubt about that..
Right now users (hunters) are providing a lot of the money required to achieve those goals. Most of it, most by a lot.
This is also very true.. One only has to look at all the Wetlands refugees around, funded mainly buy Federal and State Waterfowl stamps, and Clubs like Ducks Unlimited (which is 80% or more hunters). Waterfowl populations have rebounded and for the most part been stable since then, and more and more wetlands are being purchased and restored.

That is just one example of success.

This thread took a left turn somewhere, and everyone has a right to an opinion about killing cats. Lets just keep it to that opinions without the name calling..

Lets hope it gets back on the right track..



Fundad
California Chapter President

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