The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

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DMong
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by DMong »

hellihooks wrote:
DMong wrote:
Not sure I understand when you say .... "Dlb-het hypo/Dlb-het anery Hondo"

If the Hondo is double het, it is a heterozygous recessive carriers for two seperate mutations, they can't be double het anery, or double het hypo. But they certainly can be double het hypo AND anery (i.e. ghost).

Doug
Thanks Doug,
I'm sure I misunderstood Jeff when he said they were dlb het for hypo AND anery. I'm not a big breeder, but wanted to try to hatch out a ghost myself. I'm hoping crossing this with my dlb het will do the trick. Any normal-looking would then be what... het for ghost/het for dlb het= triple het?
Some guys I know wont buy hets (even 100%) but I know the breeder well (J.Teel Captive bred tri-colors) and he's as honest as the day is long, and I saw the parents...his hypos, aneries, and his ghosts he produced. Just amazing. Once you get to see/hold a 5 ft ghost... you're hooked! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thx again for the help, I'll check the snakes head out carefully, to see if there's any black. :thumb: jim

BTW... is anyone selling knoblocki ... breeder sized male, preferably?
I am still confused with what you are saying here.... because YES!, they can most certainly be "dbl. het, they would be double het hypo and anery just as you typed it out in your very first sentence in your reply about misunderstanding Jeff, not dbl. het hypo, dble het anery, that is a redundant statement oxymoron that doesn't make any sense. Each snake cannot be double het for the same trait twice. The snake(s) would simply be double het for hypo and anery. :lol:

I am going to assume that you mean double het hypo and anery (i.e. ghost), and yes, that is quite a common combination now days to see with them. I still am not sure exactly what you intend to breed from how you said it because you only said ...."I'm hoping crossing this with my dlb het will do the trick.. ........ crossing what x what?? :crazyeyes: :lol: I can't say unless you are very specific with BOTH parents exact genetics.

If you breed two normal "looking" snakes that you got from Jeff that are indeed BOTH double het for hypo and anery (ghost) together, you will get a theoretical predicted outcome of the following..........

Male is, Het for Ghost (hypo x anery)
Female is, Het for Ghost (hypo x anery)

Offspring are predicted to be:

25.00%, Het for Ghost
12.50%, Anerythristic, Het for Hypomelanistic
12.50%, Hypomelanistic, Het for Anerythristic
12.50%, Het for Anerythristic
12.50%, Het for Hypomelanistic
6.25%, Ghost (hypo x anery)
6.25%, Anerythristic
6.25%, Hypomelanistic
6.25%, Normal

Since you won't know which hatchling morph (except for obviously any ghost produced) or normal looking offspring are truly 100% het for either trait(s), they would be called "possible hets" for whatever trait that was not visually displayed (homozygous). For example any hypo produced would be possible het for anery, and ALL your normals would be possible DOUBLE hets (hypo and anery). They could acually be het for hypo, or anery, or both (anery and hypo), you simply won't know until they are later test-bred with an animal that is KNOWN to have the smae like trait in it's genetics.

Anyway, this is not rocket science, and is REALLY easy to understand once you grasp the very basics, but it seems very confusing to people at first if they aren't familiar with the concepts of the basics.

Here is a link to my good friend's site (Terry Dunham) that has some very helpful and easy step by step explanations of how gentics is inherited.


http://www.albinotricolors.com/genetics.html




........ good luck with things! :beer:


~Doug
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Ross Padilla
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by Ross Padilla »

Image

It does look like a ghost to me. The black looks gray. A ghost is a double homozygote, which is a snake visually expressing two different traits at the same time. In this case, its visually expressing anerythrism and hypomelanism. Jim wants to breed his ghost to a double het (het for anery and het for hypo). So this means Jim has a Honduran milksnake that looks normal but is double het for anery and hypo and wants to breed it to his ghost. Does that sound right, Jim? If not, I am still confused. :lol:
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by DMong »

Ross Padilla wrote:
It does look like a ghost to me. The black looks gray. A ghost is a double homozygote, which is a snake visually expressing two different traits at the same time. In this case, its visually expressing anerythrism and hypomelanism. Jim wants to breed his ghost to a double het (het for anery and het for hypo). So this means Jim has a Honduran milksnake that looks normal but is double het for anery and hypo and wants to breed it to his ghost. Does that sound right, Jim? If not, I am still confused. :lol:

Yes, I agree,.....it does look dark gray in the photo, but the very strong sunlight and it seeming to look like it is possibly going into shed mode with the milky looking eye lenses can very often give photos a very false impression. I have seen countless times before, and you probably have to, so it's tough to say with one photo at face-value. I have taken lots of photos of black pigment and the lighting/flash washes it out to where it actually looks hypomelanistic when I know they definitely aren't.. Also, the darkish "smoke" cast and tipping on the RBR scales is something that is most always seen in anerythristics even though many ghosts can be distinctly tipped there just the same. Usually it is more distinct in ghosts and displayed here and there as opposed to being overall if it is even present at all, and not more of a complete smokey scale haze look. If he got it from the same guy he got the double hets from, I would imagine Teel knows what it was he sold.


~Doug
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by Ross Padilla »

Yeah, the shed thing crossed my mind too, Doug, but the eyes don't seem grey enough to me. Normally the eyes are even more clouded than the rest of the snake, or at least they stick out more. What's also strange is some of the other outer rings in that photo look jet black, but then there are hypos that are very hard to tell in photos. That's what I noticed when we were putting together that blog and that's what's throwing me off about this picture. I'm pretty much just giving the pet shop the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes pet stores can be right. :lol: But like you know, we are going by a photo, which is very tricky when trying to ID a hypo Honduran from a normal if its not a very light hypo to begin with. I think Jim should take that snake to Teel and see what he says.
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by DMong »

Ross Padilla wrote:Yeah, the shed thing crossed my mind too, Doug, but the eyes don't seem grey enough to me. Normally the eyes are even more clouded than the rest of the snake, or at least they stick out more. What's also strange is some of the other outer rings in that photo look jet black, but then there are hypos that are very hard to tell in photos. That's what I noticed when we were putting together that blog and that's what's throwing me off about this picture. I'm pretty much just giving the pet shop the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes pet stores can be right. :lol: But like you know, we are going by a photo, which is very tricky when trying to ID a hypo Honduran from a normal if its not a very light hypo to begin with. I think Jim should take that snake to Teel and see what he says.

Yes, I totally agree with all that too Ross. Some pics after a fresh shed placed next to another normal pigmented Honduran would also work well. Many times as you know when there is only one specimen in a photo it can be far less obvious too whereas if there were another one right next to it they would both be seen in the very same light conditions for far easier comparison.


~Doug
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by Ross Padilla »

So true.
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robbielab
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by robbielab »

My entry: Madagascan burrowing snake

This iridescent little snake, though discovered over 100 years ago, is still known from only nine specimens (three of which I am lucky enough to be able to put my name to!), so far found only in a few isolated regions in northern Madagascar.

Image

Image

Image
urodacus_au
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by urodacus_au »

Central Ranges Taipan Oxyuranus temporalis
Image

Sixth or seventh specimen found so far to my knowledge.
Cheers
Jordan
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by DanTheMan »

So jealous of that find Jordan, will have to get out there some time soon to see one for myself!
urodacus_au
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by urodacus_au »

There's some great country out that way, you just need to be prepared. Don't know how those crazy bastards used to cross the country riding animals back in the day :lol:
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periglenes
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by periglenes »

gone herpin wrote:
periglenes wrote:Image

Bufo periglenes
May 15,1989
Were you were the last reported sighting of that toad?!
Yes.

Crump, M.L., F.R. Hensley, and K.L. Clark. 1992. Apparent decline of the golden toad: underground or extinct? Copeia 1992: 413-420.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1 ... 5846639143

If you don't have jstor access, send me your e-mail by private message and I'll send you a .pdf of the paper.

-Frank Hensley
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by Coluber Constrictor »

.
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DMong
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by DMong »

Coluber Constrictor wrote:It's not a morph, and it sure as hell isn't a Golden Toad, but still not something you see every day. Black Pine Snake (Pituophis melanoleucus lodingi), Alabama.

Awesome lodingi,.......and love the defensive stance (leave me ALONE!) of it being in the blue! :thumb:


~Doug
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by Viridovipera »

Dark morph Calloselasma rhodostoma. Never documented before to my knowledge.

Image
Image

Here's a normal one. This "normal" morph is much more common.
Image

And the piece de resistance from that trip: Oligodon macurus. Previously known from two other specimens and not documented previously for almost 70 years.
Image
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Re: The "Post your RAREST of the rare finds," post...

Post by hellihooks »

DMong wrote:
hellihooks wrote:
DMong wrote:
Not sure I understand when you say .... "Dlb-het hypo/Dlb-het anery Hondo"

If the Hondo is double het, it is a heterozygous recessive carriers for two seperate mutations, they can't be double het anery, or double het hypo. But they certainly can be double het hypo AND anery (i.e. ghost).

Doug
Thanks Doug,
I'm sure I misunderstood Jeff when he said they were dlb het for hypo AND anery. I'm not a big breeder, but wanted to try to hatch out a ghost myself. I'm hoping crossing this with my dlb het will do the trick. Any normal-looking would then be what... het for ghost/het for dlb het= triple het?
Some guys I know wont buy hets (even 100%) but I know the breeder well (J.Teel Captive bred tri-colors) and he's as honest as the day is long, and I saw the parents...his hypos, aneries, and his ghosts he produced. Just amazing. Once you get to see/hold a 5 ft ghost... you're hooked! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thx again for the help, I'll check the snakes head out carefully, to see if there's any black. :thumb: jim

BTW... is anyone selling knoblocki ... breeder sized male, preferably?
I am still confused with what you are saying here.... because YES!, they can most certainly be "dbl. het, they would be double het hypo and anery just as you typed it out in your very first sentence in your reply about misunderstanding Jeff, not dbl. het hypo, dble het anery, that is a redundant statement oxymoron that doesn't make any sense. Each snake cannot be double het for the same trait twice. The snake(s) would simply be double het for hypo and anery. :lol:

I am going to assume that you mean double het hypo and anery (i.e. ghost), and yes, that is quite a common combination now days to see with them. I still am not sure exactly what you intend to breed from how you said it because you only said ...."I'm hoping crossing this with my dlb het will do the trick.. ........ crossing what x what?? :crazyeyes: :lol: I can't say unless you are very specific with BOTH parents exact genetics.

If you breed two normal "looking" snakes that you got from Jeff that are indeed BOTH double het for hypo and anery (ghost) together, you will get a theoretical predicted outcome of the following..........

Male is, Het for Ghost (hypo x anery)
Female is, Het for Ghost (hypo x anery)

Offspring are predicted to be:

25.00%, Het for Ghost
12.50%, Anerythristic, Het for Hypomelanistic
12.50%, Hypomelanistic, Het for Anerythristic
12.50%, Het for Anerythristic
12.50%, Het for Hypomelanistic
6.25%, Ghost (hypo x anery)
6.25%, Anerythristic
6.25%, Hypomelanistic
6.25%, Normal

Since you won't know which hatchling morph (except for obviously any ghost produced) or normal looking offspring are truly 100% het for either trait(s), they would be called "possible hets" for whatever trait that was not visually displayed (homozygous). For example any hypo produced would be possible het for anery, and ALL your normals would be possible DOUBLE hets (hypo and anery). They could acually be het for hypo, or anery, or both (anery and hypo), you simply won't know until they are later test-bred with an animal that is KNOWN to have the smae like trait in it's genetics.

Anyway, this is not rocket science, and is REALLY easy to understand once you grasp the very basics, but it seems very confusing to people at first if they aren't familiar with the concepts of the basics.

Here is a link to my good friend's site (Terry Dunham) that has some very helpful and easy step by step explanations of how gentics is inherited.


http://www.albinotricolors.com/genetics.html




........ good luck with things! :beer:


~Doug
Wow... didn't realize this was ongoing... my bad. Thx for all the extra effort Doug, and yes Ross... you got it right. Xing that ghost with my dlb het... so I guess that would produce the same ratios? Both dlb hets, really, just in one the genotype is expressed.
Since Teel sold me the dlb hets as 100%... both parents must have been ghosts, to be able to say that.
The pet store said they got that snake as a 'ghost'... so I guess they had it right. It was in the blue when I got it, so was basically Grey/blk (so I thought anery) but after it shed, the cream colors came out.
Teel's ghosts are WHITE...with just a 'ghost' of a blk highly reduced pattern...THATS what I'm working towards... :D jim

PS... that Mad. Burrowing snake ROCKS!
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