Female Eastern North Fl.

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chance37
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Joined: May 2nd, 2012, 8:09 pm

Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by chance37 »

A really nice female Eastern I call heartbreaker.....The other large eastern in the pic is another female from same site...These snakes last year would have been killed on site. The unique looking female was found at the same site a patternless was killed maliciously last summer. I guess I should note that the snakes were removed to avoid execution...shovel style..
Image
HB and juvie by 2nd Chance Reptiles, on Flickr
Image
HBreaker in box by 2nd Chance Reptiles, on Flickr
Image
heart breaker by 2nd Chance Reptiles, on Flickr
chance37
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by chance37 »

2 more photos....

Image
chance5-15-12 033 by 2nd Chance Reptiles, on Flickr
Image
HB and Juvie by 2nd Chance Reptiles, on Flickr
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kyle loucks
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by kyle loucks »

Were they not able to be repatriated where they were found?
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umop apisdn
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by umop apisdn »

You do realize that collecting a snake from the wild, no matter what the intent, does as much as killing a snake in the wild...at least in terms of that animal's role in the wild population. Did you find the snake yourself, or were you called in for it?
chance37
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by chance37 »

I get where you are going with the questions...I was asked to remove the snakes...Last year they reported killing 12 adult easterns. As far as repatriating to where they were found would defeat the purpose of removing them altogether. Removing from one area to relocate to another is not something I do. I feel the need to defend my actions here but refuse to do so because your opinions on the matter arent what I am interested in reading or debating. thanks
chance37
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by chance37 »

I do realize, in respect to the population, that my removal of the specimans is as bad as killing. The interest is in the specimans killed are their aberrancies. I intend to determine if said aberranices are genetic. I dont care to read your ethics debates and points of view...Save them for someone else....this tree doesnt like barking dogs.
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gbin
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by gbin »

chance37 wrote:... I was asked to remove the snakes...Last year they reported killing 12 adult easterns. As far as repatriating to where they were found would defeat the purpose of removing them altogether...
Their attitude is the problem, not your collecting a couple of specimens. I'd have tried hard to persuade them to "live and let live," and failing that I would have blandly pointed out to them that it's not really possible to make their property rattlesnake-free if it's good habitat - so if they can't bring themselves to live alongside the rattlers, they should probably think about moving somewhere else. Hopefully eastern diamondbacks will have Endangered Species Act protection before too much longer, and such folks will feel compelled to try a little harder to live with the snakes.

You're going to find that some of us here are outright anti-collecting, some of us are fine with collecting so long as it's done legally and responsibly, and some of us fall somewhere between those two. A very few people might even try to make you feel unwelcome if you don't share their particular view, but keep in mind that we're a diverse group and most of us are more understanding that that.

Gerry
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gbin
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by gbin »

chance37 wrote:... I dont care to read your ethics debates and points of view...Save them for someone else....this tree doesnt like barking dogs.
Of course, it might be wise for you use just a bit more understanding than this, yourself. ;)

Gerry
chance37
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by chance37 »

Gerry i appreciate the welcome and I do understand the mixture of beliefs and passions among the reptile community. From experiences over the past 15 years good and well a lot of tongue biting. I havent been involved in a forum for years and should have a better memory of reasons for not doing so. I guess that falls on me, I should have bit my...fingers..lol...Its my first post and thats the first thing I got....My intentions are good and I like to think of myself as someone in the middle. I am permitted and have been for sometime. And Ive been fighting for years to stop the Whigham Roundup having grown up in a neighbor town I attended 1 as a child and refused to ever go back. I wish their passion for the species conservation of easterns would drive them to join forces to get it changed..instead of finding a forum to challenge a fellow herper...The ESA listing could get held up for 2-10 years awaiting final approval and whigham isnt doing a damn thing until the federal listing is finalized and approved. If anyone is interested in getting involved there is a Group I strongly recommend looking into P.A.L.S. and Beth Stuart.....sorry to rant
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umop apisdn
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by umop apisdn »

Not trying to ruffle your feathers, just putting across something some people don't really consider. I also understand there are issues beyond the snake itself to consider when translocating animals, as well...especially in developing/inhabited areas. Not trying to be the jerk, what you did was legal (I assume). It's just that an EDB's home range is going to be much larger than the immediate area in which they're found. You can't count an animal as dead until it's dead, I'm just hoping that at some point you might consider moving them instead of taking them home. It's the adults that mean the most to the population, especially the adult females.

So once again, I wasn't trying to call you out for your intentions.
chance37
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by chance37 »

No problemo all good in my hood. I see your point of view. What I thought originally was a female is male...both from site. Gonna see if there are some funky genteics going on there....for those who care.....Go HEAT
ugh

Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by ugh »

Whenever possible just move the snake, in as straight a 'line' as possible in the direction it was moving, to the nearest area out of harm's way(preferably out of the landowner's eyesite) and chances are the landowner would have never seen it again. Moving it anywhere else or in any other direction is just going to disorient the snake and it will keep trying to resume it's original path.

That way you're not the cause of the local population losing anything, the redneck/landowner thinks the snake's gone forever, individual snake gets to eat/reproduce/live another day.

Re: your fascination with it's 'aberrancy'- How many EDB's(or any blotched snake for that matter) have you seen that actually do have a perfect pattern? :?
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Daryl Eby
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by Daryl Eby »

ugh wrote:Re: your fascination with it's 'aberrancy' ...
I was wondering the same thing. I've never worked with EDBs, but don't see anything particularly unusual about this snake. If I'm missing something, hopefully somebody will point it out.
chance27 wrote:I dont care to read your ethics debates and points of view...Save them for someone else....this tree doesn't like barking dogs.
I hate to tell you this, but you ain't no tree. You're just another dog. You are free to ignore the debate and pretend to be a tree, but you'll likely just get pissed on. As for your obvious use (and likely exaggeration) of danger to the snakes as a justification for an attempt to cash in on "abberancies", sniff my butt.

Though I don't collect and breed, I generally support and defend collection for breeding. However, your revision of your original post (now changed to emphasize the danger to the snakes) and your weak claims that you don't want to debate the issue or defend your position (all while debating and defending by revising your posts) causes me to distrust you. Something just smells suspicious.

EDIT: Struck out some erroneous comments. Chase's edit was made BEFORE anyone challenged him.
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JakeScott
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by JakeScott »

By posting THIS type of post on THIS type of forum, you are all but asking for debate, no matter your intentions. It almost sounds like you don't really care that the snakes were removed for their own safety, but your actual interest is more in the specimen's possiblity at holding a rare genetic trate.
Not going to get empathy with what seems like ulterior motives.

-Jake
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gbin
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by gbin »

JakeScott wrote:... It almost sounds like you don't really care that the snakes were removed for their own safety, but your actual interest is more in the specimen's possiblity at holding a rare genetic trate...
It sounded to me as if both interests were present, but even if was only a case of the latter, so what? It looks as if some of y'all are simply trying to chase off a new forum user who made it clear from the start that s/he collects. "THIS type of forum" still has plenty of room for people who collect in a legal and responsible manner. Taking chance37's posts in total, too, it's obvious that s/he actually knows and maybe even cares about a thing or two, and isn't just a collector. Why not give people - especially new people - the benefit of a little doubt, or of at least a little room to think and act differently than you yourself do? If that's too much to ask, maybe some folks would be better off starting up their own "NO COLLECTION ALLOWED!" forum elsewhere. :roll:

(Note to Daryl: I agree that chance37's having gone back and edited the opening post arouses suspicion, but to be frank, it pretty much always arouses my suspicion whenever anyone goes back and edits a post anywhere. I personally wish that message board function didn't exist, for this very reason.)

Gerry
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JakeScott
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by JakeScott »

Gerry, not trying to scare anyone off. Trying to be realistic. This is a forum, people debate, just as you are with me. What I meant by "THIS" is; this is a forum of people of many different beliefs. I don't deride collectors for personal use. But at the same time any one of us is allowed to express our feelings, and my feelings are, if you are going to collect, just say that. Flat out say it. You don't need excuses. EDB's are not protected, and if you have a permit, no big deal. You will likely get flack for it. But again, so what? It's a forum.
I never said anything in my previous statement about collecting, it was more of a "be honest" with everyone on this forum. Especially if you are new. Read between the lines and interpret however you wish.

-Jake
chance37
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by chance37 »

Like I said I dont care to hear your thoughts I have no desire to debate or defend my actions.....going back and forth is not in my interest....zip..done...I did hike today and shot 3 bald eagles, i gassed 23 burrows, ate the turtles with some unicorn embryo......Looking forward to getting my pair of MOJAVES....gerry appreciate the defense..... Not gonna let someone else chase me off of this site....I look forward to reading others updates wether they keep or not...
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Daryl Eby
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by Daryl Eby »

Gerry, I don't object to the edit function, just the way some use it. I use it extensively to correct typos, errors, and to improve clarity. 90% of my revisions are BEFORE anyone else replies. Whenever I make edits after someone has commented, I add a note explaining the edit. Usually something like, "Edited to avoid shaming my English teachers".

The edits that bother me are when people revise a post to significantly change the content, especially when done in response to a challenge or anticipated challenge, without explaining the change.

The latter type of edit is what Chance did here. I saw his original post before it was edited or commented upon. The photos were the same but the text changed very strategically. In the original version, he made a passing comment about the "patternless" snake being killed while focusing on his desire to selectively breed them. In his unexplained revision, he goes into much more detail (real or imagined) about the rescue aspect of this collection and only comments briefly about his desire to breed them. He then makes the edit all the worse by follow-up comments that he does not want to defend his actions. Altering his post to create a more favorable spin was his defense, just a lame one.

Ironically, his original post did not offend me at all. OK, I'll admit it made me a little uncomfortable, but only because EDBs are widely regarded as imperiled and I don't know the accuracy of that common opinion. I also cringed because I knew a new member was likely to face attack and that I would likely feel compelled to defend him. If he had let his original post stand and more fully explained and defended his position and actions in follow-up comments, I very likely would have defended him. Heck, even if he'd just said, "I thought it was cool so I kept it", I'd have defended his right to make such a choice and simply suggested he give the issue a little more thought for the future. As I've stated many times, I'm not opposed to collection. I just want collectors (and non-collectors) to think through, understand, and be prepared to defend their actions.

There are, in my opinion, many strong and valid arguments in favor of collection. There are also many strong and valid arguments against collection. This forum, and others like it, is exactly the place where those arguments should be discussed and debated. Throwing up a post like this and then running from the fallout provides to easy an opportunity for others to attack. That is unfair to this member's fellow collectors.

EDIT: Struck out some erroneous comments. Chase's edit was made BEFORE anyone challenged him.
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Daryl Eby
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by Daryl Eby »

OH CRAP. Time for me to eat crow. I just noticed that Chance's edit was made BEFORE anyone else commented on it. I retract my comments that basically accused him of making those changes in response to challenges. Time for me to make some edits (with explanation).

Sorry Chance.
chance37
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by chance37 »

man you guys are awesome....aweeeeeesnappp. i done got told....glad eveything here is cleared up thanks. I love lamp.....tomato turds....Forgot to mention I shot 23 baby rabbits and tore up a fire ant colony with my magnifying glass.....i did however help an old lady walk across the street and opened the door for my girlfriend at wal mart...wait the doors are automatic ....can i get an amen...amen....
:evil: :evil: :evil: :sleep:
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Don Becker
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by Don Becker »

chance37 wrote:Like I said I dont care to hear your thoughts I have no desire to debate or defend my actions.....
Why exactly did you make a post in the first place then?
chance37
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by chance37 »

:sleep:
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gbin
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by gbin »

JakeScott wrote:Gerry, not trying to scare anyone off...
I believe you, Jake. I reckon no one else was trying to do that, either. My suggesting otherwise might have been going a bit too far myself, in reaction to what looked like folks piling on someone yet again - there's been an awful lot of that going on around here lately, you know. And such a pile-on could certainly have the effect of scaring someone off, regardless of why it happens. Can't we try to cut a new person at least a little bit of slack, even when said new person hasn't actually done anything wrong? Ok, so chance37 has a rather well developed inclination toward sarcasm. Surely there's room for that here, among all of our quirky personalities? As for being honest, I suspect you know very well that I'm a big fan of it myself, but it's hardly uncommon for someone here to rationalize or even outright deceitfully excuse their behavior. (Want me to quickly skim down the current message board and point out a number of instances to you where you didn't call someone on such BS? I can pretty much guarantee I'll find some.)

Daryl, the problem is that there's no way to know why/how someone edited a post if you hadn't already seen it, coupled with the fact that some folks do abuse the function to try to change their appearance or the trajectory of a discussion that's going a different direction than they want. It bugs me quite a bit to post something and then discover some dang typo in it, and in an ideal world we should all feel comfortable going back and editing such things, but here in the real world I'd much rather leave my posts alone so everyone knows exactly what I said.

Gerry
chance37
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by chance37 »

Heat looking good.......snakes here are not moving much at all.......
Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

Why exactly did you make a post in the first place then?
I was wondering, too.
chance37
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by chance37 »

not a big forum guy...shoulda posted in herpetoculture forum
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Berkeley Boone
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by Berkeley Boone »

I thought I wouldn't get involved in this thread, but I have to mention: wild caught EDBs very rarely eat in captivity. Maybe once or twice. With some pretty good luck and a fair amount of effort.
I hope you considered that before bringing those two back to your collection. The chances of them surviving, much less breeding, are very small.

Best of luck.
--Berkeley
chance37
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by chance37 »

yes considered before hand. I too know the difficulties that can arise taking ltw adamanteus and getting to eat....this is the first time I have collected an adult and not moved and relocated them instead.....figure ill get flack for that too..but damned if you do damned if you don't......but the locale and chance of patternless was too much to pass up....They have both taken food, fresh killed grey squirrels are a fave and quail. Since I have introduced them together they seem less interested in food....but they are healthy and doing well....really suprised though at the voracious appetites...They have large hide areas and the room they are kept in is not disturbed but to change water and clean as needed. They stay together opting to share a hide box and love to ome out and catch a lil sun around 5 in the afternoon when it is peaking through trees and in through large window.....not sure if they will breed but would be nice....interested to see...
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MHollanders
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by MHollanders »

Pfft. I'd hardly call that an aberrancy.
chance37
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by chance37 »

Hollanders there are others who would disagree.....however the speciman I have isnt the reason for my interest in a possible genteic tie....the female in this photo was killed within eye shot of the pair collected...and this female is the second killed in this same area....I can sya that several people with as much knowledge on EDB aberrancies as anyone both agree this female I collected is aberrant, and that even a chance at genetically being tied to the patternless females in the area is worth the project...will keep you posted...

Image
aberrant by 2nd Chance Reptiles, on Flickr
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DaveR
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by DaveR »

That photo of the butchered EDB enrages me. I'm disgusted with the ignorant, sick, and hateful behaviors of some a-holes. Last weekend, while on a long training ride on my bicycle, I stopped 3x over a short, 1 mile stretch of road bordering a wetland habitat - to assist large snapping turtles get off the highway. While I was moving the last one off the road, I saw a car (driven by a young male and friends) swerve to intentionally hit a painted turtle. Even more disgusting was an incident last week where some local high school guys secured a large firecracker to a baby rabbit and set it off. I'm a probation officer, and see a lot of disturbing things...but these atrocities involving animals really get to me.
chance37
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Re: Female Eastern North Fl.

Post by chance37 »

yeah dave I fortunattely havent seen an incident like the swerving teens but I fear what Id do or say....But it never ceases to amaze me the ignorance of people and complete lack of interest in learning...
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