Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

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The Jake-Man
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Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by The Jake-Man »

I'm new here, and I thought i'd share this beautiful little snake that I've never seen before. My grandfather and I were looking for timber rattlesnakes in North-Central Pennsylvania, when we encountered this snake that neither he nor I could identify at the time. I think it looks like a melanistic northern redbelly, though I've never seen one until now. (Maybe) Any input would be greatly appreciated.

http://s1052.photobucket.com/albums/s44 ... 10b860.jpg

http://s1052.photobucket.com/albums/s44 ... 783554.jpg
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herpseeker1978
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by herpseeker1978 »

Image

Image

You can easily embed your photos by cutting and pasting the IMG code on the right of the screen on the links you provided.
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The Jake-Man
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by The Jake-Man »

Thanks. Would you happen to know anything about melanism in this species?
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Mark Brown
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by Mark Brown »

It's a common naturally-occuring color variation in occipitomaculata
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The Jake-Man
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by The Jake-Man »

I'm sure you have a lot more experience than me, but I thought that the other color phases retained the orange-red belly, and this one has a black belly. Every snake of this species I have ever caught still had this feature, even though the color of the body varied quite a bit.
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Mark Brown
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by Mark Brown »

Black-bellied specimens aren't as common as individuals with the dark dorsal coloration, but they're a natural variation, too.
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Mark Brown
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by Mark Brown »

I'll quote Bartlett and Tennant:

"The venter is usually an intense orange-red, but gray and black-bellied individuals have often been found."
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The Jake-Man
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by The Jake-Man »

Ok, thanks. I should probably ask someone before I do this, but I have quite a few pictures from catching Crotalus Horridus this summer. Is anybody going to care if I make 2 posts in such a short amount of time? In other forums I have been ridiculed even if the topic posted is relevant.
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Mark Brown
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by Mark Brown »

The Jake-Man wrote:Ok, thanks. I should probably ask someone before I do this, but I have quite a few pictures from catching Crotalus Horridus this summer. Is anybody going to care if I make 2 posts in such a short amount of time? In other forums I have been ridiculed even if the topic posted is relevant.
Not one bit! Post away - I've never seen anyone get criticized here for anything like that. I'd advise to keep the locality info minimal - people here do tend to get pretty touchy about horridus posts when the poster says too much about where the animals were observed. And with good cause, considering the status of Timbers through much of their range.
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The Jake-Man
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by The Jake-Man »

Thanks for the reminder, my grandpa, who has showed me every site we hunt, would probably take these locations with him to the grave I hadn't come along and taken an interest. They are by far the most valuable thing he has ever given me, don't worry I'll be stingy.
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Nshepard
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by Nshepard »

It is not melanistic, rather anerytheristic (lacks red pigment, thus the belly is black).

Individual from WV:

Image

Image
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brick911
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by brick911 »

Screw the timbers. Whats it gonna take to get you to take to get you to take me to that black bellied spot?!
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The Jake-Man
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by The Jake-Man »

So if the snake I found had normal coloration, the ares that are black would have been reddish? This would account for the difference in the dorsal coloration between the snake I photographed and the photo you provided.
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The Jake-Man
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by The Jake-Man »

The funny part is, my grandpa and I were checking out a tip on a rattlesnake location, and actually found about 6 snakes, with evidence of a lot more. I just found this guy under a rock I flipped on the way out.

Would a trait like this be hereditary? For example, if this snake had offspring, would they be more likely to have the dark coloration?
Bladeblaster
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by Bladeblaster »

The Jake-Man wrote:The funny part is, my grandpa and I were checking out a tip on a rattlesnake location, and actually found about 6 snakes, with evidence of a lot more. I just found this guy under a rock I flipped on the way out.

Would a trait like this be hereditary? For example, if this snake had offspring, would they be more likely to have the dark coloration?

It is likely that this trait is a recessive mutation. So yes it would be passed on, but if it bred with a normal red belly the babies would look normal, and would need to breed to another anerythitic or heterozygous anerythistic animal to produce more anerythistic offspring.
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dery
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by dery »

brick911 wrote:Screw the timbers. Whats it gonna take to get you to take to get you to take me to that black bellied spot?!
i agree, the timbers can wait!!!!
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Chris Smith
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by Chris Smith »

This variant has been found in MN too. Pretty neat!

-Chris
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Don
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by Don »

I'll bore y'all once again with an old pic that has been on the forum more than once. These two were found together under the same piece of ac that they were photographed on. The dark one did have a red belly. Horry Co., SC


Image

and the out take

Image
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Nshepard
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by Nshepard »

Bladeblaster wrote:
The Jake-Man wrote:The funny part is, my grandpa and I were checking out a tip on a rattlesnake location, and actually found about 6 snakes, with evidence of a lot more. I just found this guy under a rock I flipped on the way out.

Would a trait like this be hereditary? For example, if this snake had offspring, would they be more likely to have the dark coloration?

It is likely that this trait is a recessive mutation. So yes it would be passed on, but if it bred with a normal red belly the babies would look normal, and would need to breed to another anerythitic or heterozygous anerythistic animal to produce more anerythistic offspring.
My WV animal was a gravid female, I kept her until she had her litter. She had 9 neonates, 8 normal and 1 black belly. So, yes it is passed down - by how, I can't answer that. I assume recessive.
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The Jake-Man
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by The Jake-Man »

I'm confused. I've gotten replies saying it is anerythristic, melanistic, and just a common color morph. Which is it? I don't mean to be impatient, but I'm making a presentation to my biology class about the snakes that live in the mountains of northern Pennsylvania, and I'd like to use this picture.
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kyle loucks
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Re: Melanistic Northern Redbelly?

Post by kyle loucks »

Old photo, unfortunately all I had was a cell phone for pics.

Image

And a yellow for good measure.
Image
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