Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
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- The Jake-Man
- Posts: 224
- Joined: June 25th, 2012, 4:08 pm
- Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
These are the pictures from my escapades this summer hunting Crotalus Horridus in Northern Pennsylvania. We visit multiple spots to find a large snake, then tube it, count the subcaudal scales, measure it, and count the rattles. Any snake over 42 inches can be killed or brought to a round up to be entered in the contest. Some contestants kill the snakes afterwards for food and for the hides, but my grandfather and I release them. Through a mutual friend, this summer I was introduced to Robert McManus, who came along on one of the hunts. He, in turn, told me about this forum, which he is a member of. I was glad to have him along and learned quite a bit from him.
This a wood turtle we found along the side of the road. Afterwards we helped him across safely.
Here is a snake that Robert caught, and my grandfather tubed. it measured 49.5 inches, but didn't win any awards at the hunt.
Here is a shot of the same snake in the lawn of our cabin.
A nice fat toad who was under a log...
A snake found sunning itself in a different location...
A 50 incher taking a shot at my grandpa's boot while he pins it.
Me holding the same snake. I'm probably markedly younger than most members of this forum. This snake was found while scouting around the hunt, so we couldn't bring it in.
A big sow with 3 cubs at our cabin.
This is me holding a fat 47.5 inch yellow phase. This snake won the hunt for heaviest yelow phase and the most rattles(13).
Me and a friend of my grandfather with two snakes caught in the same location. The yellow snake is the same one in the previous photo.
These 2 photos are of the previous snakes being released.
And last is a photo of a mountain smooth earth snake I found.
Most credits to photos go to my dad. ALl others were taken with my iphone
This a wood turtle we found along the side of the road. Afterwards we helped him across safely.
Here is a snake that Robert caught, and my grandfather tubed. it measured 49.5 inches, but didn't win any awards at the hunt.
Here is a shot of the same snake in the lawn of our cabin.
A nice fat toad who was under a log...
A snake found sunning itself in a different location...
A 50 incher taking a shot at my grandpa's boot while he pins it.
Me holding the same snake. I'm probably markedly younger than most members of this forum. This snake was found while scouting around the hunt, so we couldn't bring it in.
A big sow with 3 cubs at our cabin.
This is me holding a fat 47.5 inch yellow phase. This snake won the hunt for heaviest yelow phase and the most rattles(13).
Me and a friend of my grandfather with two snakes caught in the same location. The yellow snake is the same one in the previous photo.
These 2 photos are of the previous snakes being released.
And last is a photo of a mountain smooth earth snake I found.
Most credits to photos go to my dad. ALl others were taken with my iphone
- The Jake-Man
- Posts: 224
- Joined: June 25th, 2012, 4:08 pm
- Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
What do you mean why?
If you're asking why we bring them to the contests, a main reason is for research. Every snake brought in is given a pit tag, and if the snake is ever brought back, they can measure growth and geographic range.
The contests also raise money for the local fire department, and educate the mostly misinformed public about these creatures. Many people around there just kill them. We don't.
If you're asking why we bring them to the contests, a main reason is for research. Every snake brought in is given a pit tag, and if the snake is ever brought back, they can measure growth and geographic range.
The contests also raise money for the local fire department, and educate the mostly misinformed public about these creatures. Many people around there just kill them. We don't.
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Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Welcome to the forum. Looks like you and your grandpa have a nice spot for a cabin.
- The Jake-Man
- Posts: 224
- Joined: June 25th, 2012, 4:08 pm
- Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Thanks, I love the location. There aren't many snakes right around the cabin, bu there are bear in almost evening.
- Kevin McRae
- Posts: 110
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:28 pm
- Location: Manitoba, Canada
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Interesting post. I'm happy to see someone so young interested in Crotalus as well as your wonderful maturity and grammer. I started herping when I was 12-13. However whether the snakes are being killed or not I do not support these events. Enless some sort of beneficial research is being done what is the point of restraining a snake with tongs, placing it into a container and bringing it to a rattlesnake round up? In this situation there seems to be no reason for a PIT other then individual curiosity.
Maybe it's just me but I have ZERO desire to catch wild snakes to wow the public. In my opinion this kind of post doesn't belong on the FHF. Go herping with your friends and family and take photos. Educate the public with information cards/brochures and if need be a captive snake. I don't mean to be rude or take anything away from the enjoyable moments with your family but this is a forum I frequent and I strongly dislike threads like these, I felt I had to say something.
Great looking snakes. I hope you continue to have a passion for snakes.
Also, who are inserting the PITs? Is there an organization/biologists who is part of the event?
Maybe it's just me but I have ZERO desire to catch wild snakes to wow the public. In my opinion this kind of post doesn't belong on the FHF. Go herping with your friends and family and take photos. Educate the public with information cards/brochures and if need be a captive snake. I don't mean to be rude or take anything away from the enjoyable moments with your family but this is a forum I frequent and I strongly dislike threads like these, I felt I had to say something.
Great looking snakes. I hope you continue to have a passion for snakes.
Also, who are inserting the PITs? Is there an organization/biologists who is part of the event?
- Bryan Hamilton
- Posts: 1234
- Joined: June 10th, 2010, 9:49 pm
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
It would be nice if only males were killed. If I remember correctly some studies have shown that gravid females were collected more often than males. Killing females, especially the gravid ones is probably unsustainable.
Great post!
Great post!
- The Jake-Man
- Posts: 224
- Joined: June 25th, 2012, 4:08 pm
- Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
In Pennsylvania, you can only legally kill snakes over 42 inches with more than 21 subcaudal scales. This method isn't perfect, but I'd wager that 95 percent or more of the snakes lawfully killed are males.
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Are your snakes released at the exact spot you found them? How many days are they held in captivity?
- The Jake-Man
- Posts: 224
- Joined: June 25th, 2012, 4:08 pm
- Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Yes, they are released Exactly where they were found. They are in captivity anywhere from 8 to 36 hours.
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Bryan Hamilton wrote:It would be nice if only males were killed. If I remember correctly some studies have shown that gravid females were collected more often than males. Killing females, especially the gravid ones is probably unsustainable.
Breeding females in northern areas have to be out to bask more, and often the males disperse further/wider after emergence. In sites that have collections made there seems to be a disproportionate impact on the females.
With snakes usually (is this not the case?) the females are larger than males, so why would you think (Jake Man) that the size limits mostly impact males? Just curious.
- The Jake-Man
- Posts: 224
- Joined: June 25th, 2012, 4:08 pm
- Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
That's where you're wrong. In that post I forgot to explain that females rarely if ever grow to be 42 inches. Also, while an imperfect method, if the snake has more than 21 sub caudal scales, then there is something in the range of a 95 percent chance that it is male.
When I go out and hunt after the post-hibernation dispersal, I find about 10 small to medium sized females and males for every 1 large male. I don't bother small snakes or females, unless they are somewhere they shouldn't be, like on a road or in our firewood like. And yes, I know it's the road that shouldn't be there, not the snake.
When I go out and hunt after the post-hibernation dispersal, I find about 10 small to medium sized females and males for every 1 large male. I don't bother small snakes or females, unless they are somewhere they shouldn't be, like on a road or in our firewood like. And yes, I know it's the road that shouldn't be there, not the snake.
- Bryan Hamilton
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- Joined: June 10th, 2010, 9:49 pm
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Female timber rattlesnakes are almost always smaller than males.
The subcaudal limitation is pretty good but why not go ahead and probe the snakes to ensure that no females are killed?
The subcaudal limitation is pretty good but why not go ahead and probe the snakes to ensure that no females are killed?
- The Jake-Man
- Posts: 224
- Joined: June 25th, 2012, 4:08 pm
- Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
The reason they aren't probed seems pretty clear to me. I consider myself competent handling these snakes, but all it takes is one thrash and you could do internal damage to the snake. I don't think the average rattlesnake hunter has the skills to probe a viper without injuring himself or the snake.
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
I would agree that trying to probe a Timber that isn't sedated isn't wise, tubed or not. They are the strongest snakes I've held. The possess incredible power for their size.
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Wow, rather snarky, I'm not sure that I said anything "wrong".
- The Jake-Man
- Posts: 224
- Joined: June 25th, 2012, 4:08 pm
- Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
If you mean I'm snarky, I can assure you it wasn't on purpose. I'm sorry if I offended you, or came off as rude, but I've had quite a few mean spirited private messages about the injustice of this post. But, I guess that's what you get for doing something controversial
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Looks like several posts were lost on this thread due to the recent crash. Too bad, there's been some excellent discussion.
- ThatFrogGuy
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Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Are timbers any more likely to be stressed to the point where damage is done than any other snake? For the snake, is handling a timber any different than handling a garter snake?
- Bryan Hamilton
- Posts: 1234
- Joined: June 10th, 2010, 9:49 pm
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
I'm not sure the average rattlesnake hunter has the ability to accurately count subcaudal scales either. I was thinking that the biologists that do the PIT tagging could also determine the sex of the snake.The Jake-Man wrote:I don't think the average rattlesnake hunter has the skills to probe a viper without injuring himself or the snake.
- The Jake-Man
- Posts: 224
- Joined: June 25th, 2012, 4:08 pm
- Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Once you have the snake in the tube, often times it is calm enough that all you have to do to count the subcaudals is have a firm grip near the vent. I use a small stick to keep track of my progress as I work my way towards the rattle.
To bring a snake to the hunt, you must fill out a provisional tag unique to each hunt which makes it legal to possess the snake. In addition to this provisional tag, you must also have a permit from the PFBC. In order to possess and transport a snake to the hunt, you must fill out the provisional tag upon capturing the rattlesnake. On this tag you have to include the township where it was captured, approximate time, color phase, length, and number of subcaudals. Through this, you MUST count the subcaudals and determine the sex of the snake before putting it in the box or pillow case or whatever you are using to transport the snake.
It's sort of a complex system, but it helps keep females from being disturbed, or at least brought to the hunts.
To bring a snake to the hunt, you must fill out a provisional tag unique to each hunt which makes it legal to possess the snake. In addition to this provisional tag, you must also have a permit from the PFBC. In order to possess and transport a snake to the hunt, you must fill out the provisional tag upon capturing the rattlesnake. On this tag you have to include the township where it was captured, approximate time, color phase, length, and number of subcaudals. Through this, you MUST count the subcaudals and determine the sex of the snake before putting it in the box or pillow case or whatever you are using to transport the snake.
It's sort of a complex system, but it helps keep females from being disturbed, or at least brought to the hunts.
- Bryan Hamilton
- Posts: 1234
- Joined: June 10th, 2010, 9:49 pm
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Cool. I'm glad to hear that there are steps to prevent disturbing females.
IMO probing a snake isn't much more difficult that counting subcaudals and is more accurate. The species of rattlesnake I work with often has "split" subcaudals which can lead to inaccurate determination of gender. This may be the reason for the 95% accuracy statistic you quoted above.
IMO probing a snake isn't much more difficult that counting subcaudals and is more accurate. The species of rattlesnake I work with often has "split" subcaudals which can lead to inaccurate determination of gender. This may be the reason for the 95% accuracy statistic you quoted above.
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Jake,
Welcome to FHF and thanks for your efforts to promote the well-being of timbers. I'm sure you will get a variety of responses to your post. This forum is a great place for thoughtful dialogue and discussion. I'm an "old-timer" (turning 60 this year!!) but I'm constantly learning from the sharing and experiences of others on FHF. I've gotten to the point where I rarely touch or molest ANY critter anymore where I once grabbed/pinned/caught/collected almost anything that moved...especially hots. Spent significant time in northern and central PA looking for timbers too. Thanks again for any efforts to protect these spectacular creatures, be safe, and keep posting about your work.
Welcome to FHF and thanks for your efforts to promote the well-being of timbers. I'm sure you will get a variety of responses to your post. This forum is a great place for thoughtful dialogue and discussion. I'm an "old-timer" (turning 60 this year!!) but I'm constantly learning from the sharing and experiences of others on FHF. I've gotten to the point where I rarely touch or molest ANY critter anymore where I once grabbed/pinned/caught/collected almost anything that moved...especially hots. Spent significant time in northern and central PA looking for timbers too. Thanks again for any efforts to protect these spectacular creatures, be safe, and keep posting about your work.
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Timbers are some of the easiest snakes in the world to probe, as long as you aren't holding the snake in the tube and probing it without assistance. Have one person hold the snake firmly in a tube (if you think timbers are difficult to restrain, try something with real muscle, like a boa or large Pituophis), and then hold the tail/cloaca securely while you gently insert the probes. Use only blunt probes, use lube, and spin the probe as you gently insert it. As long as you only apply gentle pressure, and use the largest/bluntest probe available, the chances of penetrating a musk gland (if female) or the hemipene (if male) is virtually nil. Also make sure the sterilize the probe between snakes.
Probing is a must for timbers, IMO. It's easy to identify large individuals as males, but small and mid-sized individuals don't have nearly as much dimorphism in tail size as do most other snakes, and many other Crotalus.
Probing is a must for timbers, IMO. It's easy to identify large individuals as males, but small and mid-sized individuals don't have nearly as much dimorphism in tail size as do most other snakes, and many other Crotalus.
- The Jake-Man
- Posts: 224
- Joined: June 25th, 2012, 4:08 pm
- Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
Timber rattlesnakes have a single row of subcaudals that are never split, so counting them really isn't that difficult in my opinion.
Probing seems like a viable option, but obviously I would never try it without being taught by an expert, and the problem is, I don't know anyone who has experience doing this. Seeing as I pretty much only ever deal with large males, I don't think this is really an issue I'm going to tackle for a while.
Thanks for the input and advice.
Probing seems like a viable option, but obviously I would never try it without being taught by an expert, and the problem is, I don't know anyone who has experience doing this. Seeing as I pretty much only ever deal with large males, I don't think this is really an issue I'm going to tackle for a while.
Thanks for the input and advice.
-
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Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
very interesting topic.
I must admit I find the collecting of animals in this way off putting, but if there truely is some viable research being done then thats a different matter I guess.
I must admit I find the collecting of animals in this way off putting, but if there truely is some viable research being done then thats a different matter I guess.
- Jeremy Westerman
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Re: Timber Rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania
I find it great that you and your grandfather do not kill your finds and you are interested in snakes and helping the scientific community. I will gently say that I do not advocate rattlesnake roundups (of any kind) as they are of limited to no scientific value. Collecting a snake legally is fine, educating with a wild specimen is fine, but collecting numerous individual snakes where the goal isn't scientific research rather prizes in a contest or funding for the local fire department isn't ethical. by putting all of the snakes together in a "snake pit" you risk spreading infection, viruses or parasites to more hosts. By disrupting basking sites and dens you stress the population. Individual animals will be highly stressed by the disruption to their daily routine. Scientists who must detain wild animals for research try to minimize their stress, exposure, and captivity time to the bare minimum and release as soon as possible. Only legitimate scientific inquiry justifies wildlife capture. By your own admission many of the "hunters" (if not most) kill their snakes caught after the event for meat or hides. I would venture to guess that collection methods are not shall we say kind to the particular microhabitat where the snakes might be. I am not trying to discourage you from your love of snakes or your willingness to share your thoughts here on this website. But many of us are trying to get people to change their views on what is acceptable wildlife use. I think that you as an individual could have great affect on your friends and neighbors and the snake community in your area. I am most impressed with your posts you seem like a very intelligent young man. I am certainly glad your grandfather taught you how to be safe around venomous snakes but you must consider the snakes safety too. You grandfather stepping on a snake to restrain it for instance. A lot to think about. I hope that you review all your practices and discard the unethical ones (as we all must continue to do.) Happy snake "hunting" Jake