Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask because

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Greg Theos
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Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask because

Post by Greg Theos »

...as I was driving down a rural NW Florida road, I saw this unfortunately familiar sight. Only seconds earlier, this guy had killed this beautiful 5-foot EDB. My plan was to pull off the road, pretend to be a proud and like-minded ignorant "good ol' boy" and just let the guy get comfortable so he would divulge as much (hopefully) incriminating information as possible. I recorded the conversation with my phone in which he volunteered his first and last name and described watching the snake cross the road, then getting out of his car and killing it with a shovel. I also captured his license plate and a clear landmark in the photos. Did he break the law?




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herper1
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by herper1 »

I don't know the legality of it, but I can't help to wonder how you were able to hold it together and talk to this idiot without blowing it and telling him off or worse.
VICtort
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by VICtort »

Dear Greg,

That is a clever way to get the elements of a crime. I have often done the same, and when I heard all I needed, I took action. There are some issues depending upon your state, the recording may or may not be admissable. The actual killing of the snake may or may not be lawful, I don't know what/if any protection C. admanteus is afforded in Florida. I am curious on why you distorted the license plate number? I would pass this information on to a game warden, not because he/she can do much about this specific case, but maybe they know the person or should know them and they will have an encounter in the future?

In most states, killing of wildlife is a misdemeanor, and thus you would be in a citizen arrest situation since the violation occurred not in an officers presence but in yours, a common citizen. Laws may be chosen by an officer, regardng taking of protected wiuldlife and possession of same. It would require contacting an officer, getting them to cite the citizen and requiring you as a witness for the state to make at least two court appearances typically. Most citizens back down from the responsibility when it is explained to them. This is a really tough situation, when you know what is right and the malicious killing is so abhorrent, yet is often not specifically prohibitied. Stupid, ignorant people and the politicians included often think it is their Right to kill these creatures, even when non-threatening, i.e. on a road, they somehow feel it is their duty to kill these spawn of the devil creatures...I hear it all the time here in the Imperial Valley where local folks often take great pride in killing the last of the few C. atrox that remain here on the extreme western edge of the range. Some of these people are actually good folks, but they are indeed ignorant and it is hard for me to even know how to start/explain the situation with them, we indeed think differently. Had this been an indigo for example, you would likely have a good case especially filed Federally with the USFW service.

IF a species gets listed with Federal protection sometimes severe penalties for unlawful take may be imposed. Is the Eastern diamondback listed as threatened or endangered? It has been proposed, but I don't think yet acted upon. I am sorry you were subjected to this repugnant event, I just don't know why people think killing is a reasonable solution to things they fear or don't understand... Maybe there is such a thing as Karma, in which case he may inherit some bad stuff...

When contacting an officer, I would suggest a USFWS service agent, or game warden or park ranger. Many other officers, especially Sheriff's will quite likely want to assist in killing the snake and even think it is their duty...and they will be proud of it and publish photos in the paper....sad but true. Ignorance runs deep in our culture.

Vic ( Imperial Valley, extreme southern Califorinia lowland desert, just 4 miles N. of Mexico border)
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mywan
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by mywan »

I don't know about Florida laws in respect to killing the snake. However, if you voice recorded this guy without his knowledge that is against the law in Florida. In fact telemarketers will often locate in Florida because Florida will prosecute people outside of Florida, where such recordings are legal, if they record someone located in Florida. If the guy was aware he was being voice recorded you are good.
Coluber Constrictor
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by Coluber Constrictor »

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muskiemagnet
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by muskiemagnet »

nice work, unfortunately it was for nothing. may i suggest next time, just kick him in the jimmy and run.

-ben
joeysgreen
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by joeysgreen »

That sucks that it is not illegal to kill this snake, or any animal that matter with such blatant disrespect. I would post that picture, with full liscence plate, and his name and any other pertinent information you have on him. Not just here, but on Facebook; flyer the area, put it on posters in pet stores and herp expos. If there is no such thing as karma, you can certainly influence something similiar. Make an example of this person instead of being a silent minority that hopefully one day, will no longer be outnumbered.

ps, if the above is illegal, skip the facebook so it can't be tracked back to you. I really doubt he recorded your name and liscence plate.

Heck, why don't we as a community work towards something like a "we won't stand for needless killing day". I'm sure we could join up with other groups that face this problem, poster this guy around the continent as an example of something no longer socially acceptable. A movement that large would eventually see media interest, further sending the message that we don't stand for this.

Just brainstorming anyhow; I can help out with spreading the word to Alberta and perhaps Western Canada but the majority of the problem is further south and/or east.

Ian
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justinm
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by justinm »

Where I live if I did this to a cat it would be front page news. I don't understand how we are allowed to put value on one animal vs. another.
joeysgreen
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by joeysgreen »

As per my above post, I'll admit I'm a doer as much as I am a talker. It's posted coast to coast on local Canadian forums, and on "not allowed". I hope it spreads beyond the herp circles or it's just preaching to the choir.
I apologise if I've acted too left wing for some, but I"m tired of seeing this.
If anyone has ideas to better go about this, then please offer them. At this point getting the word spreading beyond the herp community is the challenge.

Ian
Bob O'
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by Bob O' »

The answer is maybe. Just to get it out of the way, it is a felony in Florida to secretly record someone unless it falls within certain enumerated exceptions. Be careful there.

EDB's are not generally protected in Florida. With that said, all public lands that I can think of prohibit killing of EDBs by way of regulation, albeit in an indirect way. These lands generally prohibit the take of any wildlife unless it is expressly allowed. EDB's are never mentioned, and thus are protected. This is the case in Florida's wildlife management areas (WMA's), water management district lands (for example SWFMD), state parks and most county parks, to name a few.

If your guy who (was not in a protected area) simply killed the snake with a shovel and let it lay, then yes, he committed a second degree misdemeanor. Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission Rule 68A-4.001 prohibits, "willful and wanton waste." (see below). Wildlife is defined to include reptiles. This regulation IS enforced.

If your guy kept the animal, then there is no crime.

Either way, there is no case. Because it is a misdemeanor, the offense has to occur in the presence of a LEO in order for there to be citation/arrest on the spot. Otherwise, a case has to be filed with the state attorney which will never happen.

I hope that helps.

Bob

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
68A-4.001. General Prohibitions
Effective: Tuesday, July 01, 2008
(1) No wildlife or freshwater fish or their nests, eggs, young, homes or dens shall be taken, transported, stored, served, bought, sold, or possessed in any manner or quantity at any time except as specifically permitted by these rules nor shall anyone take, poison, store, buy, sell, possess or wantonly or willfully waste the same except as specifically permitted by these rules.
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gbin
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by gbin »

My thoughts:

That fellow clearly posed for the photograph that Greg took, so I'd have no qualms about posting that photo unaltered (i.e. with the license plate number not obscured) anywhere and everywhere that seems appropriate.

That fellow is also wearing a work shirt, presumably representing his place of employment. If it's possible to identify that place, contacting his employers to tell them how poorly he is representing them to people who care about wildlife (not just snakes - nobody in their right mind cares about snakes ;) ) might bring him a bit of kharma that'll never reach him otherwise.

An awful lot of folks in north FL feel exactly the same way that fellow does, and as others pointed out the law won't go after him for his actions, so don't expect too much from your efforts. (That's not to say they're not worthwhile, but simply that you should be realistic about things.)

Gerry
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Greg Theos
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by Greg Theos »

herper1 wrote:I don't know the legality of it, but I can't help to wonder how you were able to hold it together and talk to this idiot without blowing it and telling him off or worse.
I didn't say it was easy. Believe me, it wasn't what I wanted to do. I am all too happy to be confrontational with someone like this, though it usually doesn't accomplish anything productive. I was hoping he would incriminate himself. Being combative with the guy would never have accomplished what civility did in this case, though it appears it was an exercise in futility.

VICtort wrote:I am curious on why you distorted the license plate number?
I am posting a graphic image of a snake-killer on a snake-friendly website. I don't think it would be outside the realm of possibility for a hot-head extremist on here to take some type of harmful action against this guy. I didn't want to facilitate that and I wouldn't want my name attached to it.

justinm wrote:Where I live if I did this to a cat it would be front page news. I don't understand how we are allowed to put value on one animal vs. another.
Well, same here. Only difference is that this guy would have become a local celebrity of sorts and possibly commemorated with a Main Street statue.

gbin wrote:That fellow is also wearing a work shirt, presumably representing his place of employment. If it's possible to identify that place, contacting his employers to tell them how poorly he is representing them to people who care about wildlife (not just snakes - nobody in their right mind cares about snakes ;) ) might bring him a bit of kharma that'll never reach him otherwise.

An awful lot of folks in north FL feel exactly the same way that fellow does, and as others pointed out the law won't go after him for his actions, so don't expect too much from your efforts. (That's not to say they're not worthwhile, but simply that you should be realistic about things.)

Gerry

Gerry, this area was not too far from Opp, Alabama (i.e. rattlesnake roundup domain). Killing snakes, and anything that breathes for that matter, is commonplace down here; it is the predominant way of thinking. I am not optimistic that his employer would think differently. I'm not nixing the idea, just not holding my breath.

You are all telling me what I had already suspected but what I didn't want to hear.
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by Jimi »

If your guy who (was not in a protected area) simply killed the snake with a shovel and let it lay, then yes, he committed a second degree misdemeanor. Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission Rule 68A-4.001 prohibits, "willful and wanton waste." (see below). Wildlife is defined to include reptiles. This regulation IS enforced.

If your guy kept the animal, then there is no crime.
That's about the size of it. I don't think FL yet requires a hunting or fishing license for non-commercial use (lethal or otherwise) of herps so he probably wasn't guilty of taking wildlife without a license. But if he let it lay, he did willfully and wantonly waste. Which is absolutely frowned upon.

You might get to know your local FWC officers. Some might prove to be quite sympathetic and helpful. Even if you all can't get the offender on this count (and trust me, somebody probably already knows this guy), if they catch him down the road on something else, they might be more inclined to try and nail him to a cross. For getting away with something in the past, I mean. Hey, cops are just people too!

You getting much kayak time?

Cheers,
Jimi
joeysgreen
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by joeysgreen »

A reply on another forum. Apparently this guy sports a liscence plate associating him as a member of the National Wild Turkey Federation.
Hmm....anyone else find this article somewhat contradictory??? The volunteers from NWTF are 'supposedly' increasng conservation efforts for both rattlers and wild turkeys, yet one of their members has slaughtered a rattler....go figure...
~~~~
Improving wild turkey and
rattlesnake habitat in Minnesota

Lakefront property is prime real estate for wildlife and hunters
Photo Courtesy Army Corps. of Engineers


Yes, you read right, timber rattlesnakes. As in the long, thick, pointy-fanged rattlers we fear each spring even when wearing the latest in crotch-high, bulletproof, $400 snake boots. But before you ask if Minnesota NWTF volunteers have lost their collective minds, consider this: snakes and wild turkeys go together like peanut butter and jelly.

Most of what makes for good wild turkey habitat also makes for good timber rattlesnake habitat, and vice-versa. Some say if you're not seeing any snakes when you're turkey hunting you are probably not hunting hard enough. So, why not explore some great Heartland turkey hunting and rattlesnake watching country?

Blufflands Restoration Project

NWTF volunteers and staff are working hard and providing funding to improve habitat for both wild turkeys and timber rattlesnakes in Houston County through the Blufflands Restoration Project. They are currently getting their hands dirty on several private properties situated adjacent or near to similar projects on public lands in the region. Treatments include hand cutting red cedars and invasive brush species, prescribed burns and exotic species control. The project already has been funded by Legislative Trust Fund Grants sponsored by the NWTF Minnesota State Chapter for more than $200,000, and additional funding is planned for 2011 and beyond to continue restoration of this critical wildlife habitat.

"This is a long-term, ongoing project, funded by several different grants and partners working with the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources," said NWTF Regional Biologist Dave Neu. "The project has the double benefit of enhancing habitat for both timber rattlesnakes and wild turkeys by removing invasive species from the bluffs, which in turn exposes the native prairie plants and rock outcrops beneath to restore better habitat for wildlife."
Public access hunting in Bluff Country

Centered on the towns of Houston and Caledonia, Houston County, also known as "Bluff Country," has six state-managed WMAs with public access turkey hunting. Ranging in size from 49 to 669 acres, these WMAs (Chisholm Valley, Ferndale Ridge, Root River, Winnebago, Mound Prairie — Main and West units) offer hunters a variety of small- to medium-size tracts managed primarily for deer, turkey, pheasant and small game hunting. Some of the WMAs are included in the Blufflands Restoration Project, yet all present great opportunities for hunters in Minnesota willing to travel to the extreme southeastern corner of the state. Houston and Caledonia are your best bets for food, lodging and other services.

For more information, visit www.houston county.govoffice2.com.
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sdbeazley
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by sdbeazley »

All venomous snakes in FL count as conditional reptiles for collecting purposes. I'm fairly sure it is illegal to "take or possess" conditional reptiles without a permit in the state of FL. While it wasn't on WMA of FWC managed lands, you couldn't just collect an EDB and bring it anywhere you wanted.
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Mike Rochford
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by Mike Rochford »

Yeah... wouldn't he need a venomous license to handle that snake in FL?

Mike
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by chris_mcmartin »

Mike Rochford wrote:Yeah... wouldn't he need a venomous license to handle that snake in FL?
Doesn't that more specifically apply to captive maintenance than "local hero kills dangerous snake" scenarios? It seems the general sentiment is to applaud killing snakes, but to penalize people who try to keep them alive to learn more about them. :?
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Joshua Jones
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by Joshua Jones »

joeysgreen wrote:A reply on another forum. Apparently this guy sports a liscence plate associating him as a member of the National Wild Turkey Federation.
Hmm....anyone else find this article somewhat contradictory??? The volunteers from NWTF are 'supposedly' increasng conservation efforts for both rattlers and wild turkeys, yet one of their members has slaughtered a rattler....go figure...
~~~~
Improving wild turkey and
rattlesnake habitat in Minnesota

Lakefront property is prime real estate for wildlife and hunters
Photo Courtesy Army Corps. of Engineers


Yes, you read right, timber rattlesnakes. As in the long, thick, pointy-fanged rattlers we fear each spring even when wearing the latest in crotch-high, bulletproof, $400 snake boots. But before you ask if Minnesota NWTF volunteers have lost their collective minds, consider this: snakes and wild turkeys go together like peanut butter and jelly.

Most of what makes for good wild turkey habitat also makes for good timber rattlesnake habitat, and vice-versa. Some say if you're not seeing any snakes when you're turkey hunting you are probably not hunting hard enough. So, why not explore some great Heartland turkey hunting and rattlesnake watching country?

Blufflands Restoration Project

NWTF volunteers and staff are working hard and providing funding to improve habitat for both wild turkeys and timber rattlesnakes in Houston County through the Blufflands Restoration Project. They are currently getting their hands dirty on several private properties situated adjacent or near to similar projects on public lands in the region. Treatments include hand cutting red cedars and invasive brush species, prescribed burns and exotic species control. The project already has been funded by Legislative Trust Fund Grants sponsored by the NWTF Minnesota State Chapter for more than $200,000, and additional funding is planned for 2011 and beyond to continue restoration of this critical wildlife habitat.

"This is a long-term, ongoing project, funded by several different grants and partners working with the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources," said NWTF Regional Biologist Dave Neu. "The project has the double benefit of enhancing habitat for both timber rattlesnakes and wild turkeys by removing invasive species from the bluffs, which in turn exposes the native prairie plants and rock outcrops beneath to restore better habitat for wildlife."
Public access hunting in Bluff Country

Centered on the towns of Houston and Caledonia, Houston County, also known as "Bluff Country," has six state-managed WMAs with public access turkey hunting. Ranging in size from 49 to 669 acres, these WMAs (Chisholm Valley, Ferndale Ridge, Root River, Winnebago, Mound Prairie — Main and West units) offer hunters a variety of small- to medium-size tracts managed primarily for deer, turkey, pheasant and small game hunting. Some of the WMAs are included in the Blufflands Restoration Project, yet all present great opportunities for hunters in Minnesota willing to travel to the extreme southeastern corner of the state. Houston and Caledonia are your best bets for food, lodging and other services.

For more information, visit http://www.houston county.govoffice2.com.
Joey, I tried your link and it didn't work...This idiot needs to be corrected....

How can you quote an educational resource and still act like a hero for killing important wildlife? I wanted to know where this was posted, so I could tell him that, where I grew up, we were taught to watch where we put our feet. Not spend four hundred dollars (?!?!) on a pair of magic boots, because we were too stupid -or lazy- to do so. I hunt turkeys, too. The difference is that I'm not a retarded caveman, unlike some of the neighbors that I've tried so hard to educate, in the past.

In my honest opinion, you should follow Ben's advice. Kick that dude in the balls and beat feet. :lol:
jimoo742
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by jimoo742 »

As if turkeys don't kill enough rattlesnakes on their own. Sheesh.
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Mike Rochford
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by Mike Rochford »

Chris- Probably. But I was told by FWC that I would have needed one to conduct hands-on research on venomous snakes in Florida if it weren't done in entirely in a national park. So, I think technically this guy broke the law.

Mike
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Mike Rochford wrote:Chris- Probably. But I was told by FWC that I would have needed one to conduct hands-on research on venomous snakes in Florida if it weren't done in entirely in a national park. So, I think technically this guy broke the law.

Mike

Mike - I believe that would be the case if you were detaining a hot for a while, but I wouldn't imagine that you'd probably not ever get cited for merely handling a EDB - maybe killing it. Either way, I doubt anything of that sort would hold up in court. Purely my opinion though, I'm not sure.
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Greg Theos
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by Greg Theos »

Jimi...I think I went kayaking once this year. I have worked on average ~80hr/wk this year, so my hobbies have been on the backburner. That changes next week, at least for a little while.

I'm not sure how this snake ever made it to the size it did in this area. I have seen maybe 30 EDB's, and only 3 or 4 of them were this size or larger. Sad that it had to meet it's fate in such a mindless and brutal manner.
Mark Hazel
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by Mark Hazel »

I know nothing of the legal issues, but:

How much state or federal money is spent to "prevent Florida's EDBs from reaching federal threatened status" or to simply study the species' status since there's been some level of generally observed or accepted population declines?

If there is government money being spent toward such a goal (is there--how much?), and the same government entities sanction needless & essentially unreported take like this, then it seems to me one could consider pointing this out to some objective & fiscally conservative FL politician who might be disgusted by what constitutes a waste of money--if not necessarily disgusted by the waste of that EDB.

One can imagine some politicians would see the potential savings more in curtailing EDB-conservation efforts than in curtailing wanton killings? Or also: some might contend that the cost of potential enforcement efforts to decrease wanton killings would balance out any net fiscal gain?

How much economic flack would EDB's ESA listing in FL cause? How likely is that listing, really? How likely is it the federal ESA will still be functioning at all in 10 yrs?

--Mark
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Re: Legal to maliciously kill an EDB in Florida? I ask becau

Post by joeysgreen »

www.nwtf.org is the website for the above Turkey organization.

I joined their forums to spread the message and the majority of the replies seem to be from level headed people. I wouldn't use this guy as a representative of the nwtf by any means.

Greg, it was recommended that you hand over what information you do have (sans voice recording if you think you'll get in trouble for it; just give written notes) to the F&W and let them do what they can with it. It's better than nothing.

I wonder if it would be benificial to work with the nwtf to organize some local species education talks to perhaps increase awareness, appreciation, and commaradary with them. This could be your chance to do something concrete, any volunteers?

Ian
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