Best time to herp Arizona?

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MattSullivan
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Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by MattSullivan » September 22nd, 2012, 12:17 pm

Hey everyone,

My dad and i are trying to decide when best to herp southeast Arizona. I have spring break in March so we have then or most of may, late june. My main target is horned lizards and idk if they have a better time of year or not but that is what i most want to find.
thanks for any help!
Matt

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regalringneck
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by regalringneck » September 23rd, 2012, 8:18 am

Matt, you're a smart lad planning ahead, so that'l help insure you have a gr8t trip, w/ your dad. ill help you.

1st get a Delorme Az Gazeteer map book and after you have it, email me & we'll yak by the sps you like to find / pages in the book.

March is better than late may & june in most of az, yet early may is better than march; most years. Anytime is better than not being out at all!

Hopefully others will shoot you some emails, cuz a few cybervocal folks h8te these discussions in front of iitoi & those hoards of poachers ... :roll:

have fun w/ the planning, it gets to be almost 1/2 the fun & as well all love 2say, its gr8t when the plan comes 2gether : } john gunn

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by soulsurvivor » September 23rd, 2012, 9:38 am

The last time I made a herping trip to Arizona was mid May, and we did great. Found lots of snakes, frogs, and lizards, including gilas. I can't comment on March herping there because I've never tried it. But if you have to wait until May, I still think you'll be happy.

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by kyle loucks » September 23rd, 2012, 10:55 am

Vouching for Matt. A young guy, but a top notch herp photographer.

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by Daryl Eby » September 23rd, 2012, 11:03 am

I've never herped Arizona. But from what I hear, the best time to herp there is when nobody is posting about herping there (or getting attacked for posting too soon).

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regalringneck
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... 2 pauly-wog lynum ...

Post by regalringneck » September 23rd, 2012, 11:15 am

... hey hotshot hep the kid out rather than tickling me eh ;] ... and drinking brews at 09:00 ... thats the secret to finding those nevada & tucson boas eh .... dangdude ... ida never fingered that one out!

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MattSullivan
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by MattSullivan » September 23rd, 2012, 11:23 am

thanks for the help guys and Kyle thanks for vouching for me haha :) Im thinking March might be too early so im leaning towards May

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by justinm » September 23rd, 2012, 1:48 pm

Daryl Eby wrote:I've never herped Arizona. But from what I hear, the best time to herp there is when nobody is posting about herping there (or getting attacked for posting too soon).
I think Daryl must be right!

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by gbin » September 23rd, 2012, 5:33 pm

regalringneck wrote:... a few cybervocal folks h8te these discussions in front of iitoi & those hoards of poachers ... :roll:
I must say, I always enjoy your contributions, John - and often learn something from them! I'd never heard of the Man in the Maze before... :thumb:

Back when I used to regularly visit AZ, I always aimed for late April/early May. But of course it depends on what your goals are for your visit.

Gerry

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MattSullivan
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Re: ... 2 pauly-wog lynum ...

Post by MattSullivan » September 23rd, 2012, 8:29 pm

Paul Lynum wrote:
regalringneck wrote:... hey hotshot hep the kid out rather than tickling me eh ;] ... and drinking brews at 09:00 ... thats the secret to finding those nevada & tucson boas eh .... dangdude ... ida never fingered that one out!

How would you know :lol: ? You've never found a boa or understand them :cry: I'm sure Matt is not interested in posting homemade mutts taken out in the field for a shot :roll: Let the pros help the kid. I'll show him how to voucher, take tissue samples, and be written up :thumb: . Something you don't understand or have experience with. There's another 12 pack calling you, Johnny Boy :arrow: Matt, I'll try and help you out. With John all you'll find is a hangover ;) Or if you have luck in the field, one sour guy talking smack :( . Matt, you can PM anytime. I know AZ better than most.

PL
awesome thank you!

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by Richard F. Hoyer » September 23rd, 2012, 9:00 pm

John Gunn:
I don't frequent these forums all that regularly and only the AZ forum once in a blue moon.

Good to see you are still around. In recent years, you have acquired a very experienced herper in AZ in the form of one Paul L.

Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by Bryan_Hughes » September 23rd, 2012, 10:24 pm

Matt,

What species of horned lizard are you most interested in seeing?

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by hellihooks » September 24th, 2012, 7:20 am

As a side-note... I found Texas horned Lizards on the Isle of Palm, off the coast of S Carolina, in 09... :shock: :D jim

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by regalringneck » September 24th, 2012, 9:13 am

glad you found "the creator" of interest Dr. B, hope all is going better for you & yours ... and Richard, always a delight to have your civility & maturity grace these discussions ... all the best to you & your clan too ... : }

... as for my ill tempered & thinskinned critic ... thank you for being willing to give Matt your help. 8-)

... so i prolly otta leave a little visual of sorts ... hey heres one thats possibly apropo :p

Image

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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by Bryan Hamilton » September 24th, 2012, 9:35 am

Best time is never. A lot of people think Arizona is the center of the universe but its overated.

It is a fun state to herp but as yoda said "there is another..."

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by joeysgreen » September 24th, 2012, 9:36 am

How do the summer rains compare to the spring for herping?

Ian

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Bryan_Hughes
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by Bryan_Hughes » September 25th, 2012, 5:27 pm

Bryan Hamilton wrote:Best time is never. A lot of people think Arizona is the center of the universe but its overated.

It is a fun state to herp but as yoda said "there is another..."

Definitely. Never come here. That should answer your question, Matt.

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-EJ
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by -EJ » September 26th, 2012, 6:03 am

Ask the 4 Belgians.

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azatrox
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by azatrox » September 26th, 2012, 7:40 am

Ian,

Spring can be hit or miss here in Az…If we have a wet winter, then spring is usually pretty good. If we have a spring like we had this year (virtually no rain in the winter), then it sucks big time.
The summer rains (i.e. monsoon) are virtually guaranteed in Az….Some seasons are better than others, but even if it doesn’t rain much, the weather pattern creates changes in barometric pressure that often spur animal activity. That’s why everybody and their mom chooses to come at that time of year. Not as many people come in spring due to the unpredictable rainfall patterns in the winter.

Of course those looking for certain species (i.e. striped slugs) usually choose to come in the spring.

-Kris

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by lateralis » September 26th, 2012, 12:16 pm

hmmmm, we are afraid of showing our fellow countrymen around, yet we will plug the Euro crowd in to the good spots so they can do the following...

http://www.venomland.net/t6192-c-w-willardi

:thumb:

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by AndyO'Connor » September 26th, 2012, 1:09 pm

I hope to get this much help when the time comes for me to plan a trip to AZ. For the record, I'd treat most with the same courtesy I'd request if you ever wanted to spoil yourself with a trip to the Great NW... Bryan Hamilton, don't tell people about the other places north or west of AZ, some of us enjoy herping for a week and not seeing signs of human life LOL.

Actually I'm glad this post didn't go as far south as some AZ help requests have in the past. OP - Good luck whenever you decide to go.

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reptilist
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by reptilist » September 26th, 2012, 1:36 pm

Arizona is somewhat like a canned hunt.
Everything is a foregone conclusion.
Some of the snakes even know the herpers by name.
The secret is out.
Be the intrepid explorer and go where no man has gone before!
Go in April.

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by gbin » September 26th, 2012, 6:03 pm

azatrox wrote:... Not as many people come in spring...
This is actually one of the reasons I've always preferred the spring, though of course AZ wasn't nearly as heavily herped back when I used to make an annual pilgrimage there as it is now that I unfortunately get there much less often. For me it's always been about the overall quality of my time there, not the sheer quantity of herps seen. (Can you believe that I've sometimes even visited the state without herp hunting at all?!? :shock: ) Spring has historically worked out well for me both in terms of my preferred target species and my preference for a bit of solitude while seeking them. ;)

Gerry

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by justinm » September 26th, 2012, 6:47 pm

lateralis wrote:hmmmm, we are afraid of showing our fellow countrymen around, yet we will plug the Euro crowd in to the good spots so they can do the following...

http://www.venomland.net/t6192-c-w-willardi

:thumb:
That's why I got upset that the dipshit posted dot maps with a major city at the center. He can call it vague but it was a topographic map with location dots. It's no wonder every single species of Crotalus is kept in Europe, many with very specific location information in the sales ads. The Euros really aren't getting it or just don't care. I'm not shocked that many people are tight lipped when obvious poaching is occurring. I hope someday I can make the trip of a lifetime and get a little help from my friends. Everyone knows I do my best to show visitors anything they want to see around here, so long as we leave the gps at home, and keep it on the down low.

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by jason folt » September 26th, 2012, 7:09 pm

Go during the monsoons. You are spending a lot of time and money and want to maximize your success. It is actually quite easy to go to AZ during the monsoons and not see another herper though. You just have to get off the beat and path a little.

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by hellihooks » September 26th, 2012, 7:10 pm

justinm wrote:
That's why I got upset that the dipshit posted dot maps with a major city at the center. He can call it vague but it was a topographic map with location dots. It's no wonder every single species of Crotalus is kept in Europe, many with very specific location information in the sales ads. The Euros really aren't getting it or just don't care. I'm not shocked that many people are tight lipped when obvious poaching is occurring. I hope someday I can make the trip of a lifetime and get a little help from my friends. Everyone knows I do my best to show visitors anything they want to see around here, so long as we leave the gps at home, and keep it on the down low.
You Do realize that guy you're calling a 'dipshit' is probably the TOP herper in all of Europe, having vouchered EVERY species in Europe? :shock:
I've herped with him and he is a consummate professional, and as nice a person as you'll ever meet. Things may be handled differently in Europe, like posting maps ect, but I KNOW Jer didn't mean any harm, and is not one of the 'visitors' who collect more than data. I'm not even sure I even believe Euros coming over here collecting stuff... MUCH more likely locals collect and sell online... :shock: :( jim

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by justinm » September 27th, 2012, 7:52 am

Jim,

Anyone who comes on here asking for help about Az gets tripe. They are harangued and it's usually a horrible post that spirals into an argument. So this guy strolls in gets some obviously amazing locations handed to him... What does he do? He posts them on a topo map with a major city in the center. Then says it was vague. I'm guessing that the trust he's broken will mess it up for Americans. That is sad, and makes me furious. So yes he's a dipshit. Good herpers sometimes use their heads for hatracks Jim. Doesn't make them bad people, but it does cause issues for those that follow. I'm just hoping that someday when I go the locals aren't still pissed about posts like this one.

Justin

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by -EJ » September 27th, 2012, 8:08 am

It didn't go in that direction... until...
justinm wrote:Jim,

Anyone who comes on here asking for help about Az gets tripe. They are harangued and it's usually a horrible post that spirals into an argument. So this guy strolls in gets some obviously amazing locations handed to him... What does he do? He posts them on a topo map with a major city in the center. Then says it was vague. I'm guessing that the trust he's broken will mess it up for Americans. That is sad, and makes me furious. So yes he's a dipshit. Good herpers sometimes use their heads for hatracks Jim. Doesn't make them bad people, but it does cause issues for those that follow. I'm just hoping that someday when I go the locals aren't still pissed about posts like this one.

Justin

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by hellihooks » September 27th, 2012, 8:15 am

justinm wrote:Jim,

Anyone who comes on here asking for help about Az gets tripe. They are harangued and it's usually a horrible post that spirals into an argument. So this guy strolls in gets some obviously amazing locations handed to him... What does he do? He posts them on a topo map with a major city in the center. Then says it was vague. I'm guessing that the trust he's broken will mess it up for Americans. That is sad, and makes me furious. So yes he's a dipshit. Good herpers sometimes use their heads for hatracks Jim. Doesn't make them bad people, but it does cause issues for those that follow. I'm just hoping that someday when I go the locals aren't still pissed about posts like this one.

Justin
It was a mistake, which he rectified as soon as possible, and apologized for. My point is... you didn't NEED to be so rude, and your use of derogatory terms makes it clear who the dip$#!^ is. AND... you been spoken to about it, again and again, both publicly and privately... In a word... it reflects badly on all of us. :( You can't see that? :shock: :roll: jim

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by azatrox » September 27th, 2012, 8:23 am

Sigh...

As an Az herper, I’d like to interject a thing or two…Yes, Az people are VERY tight lipped when it comes to locales…And with good reason. Yes, there is poaching that goes on for many of the more sought after species of Az Crotalus….And many of these animals do end up in Europe.

There’s an insinuation here that European in Az = poacher. While that may be true in some cases, we have to be VERY CAREFUL with our assumptions. Just because someone is from Europe and is in Arizona looking for reptiles doesn’t mean they are doing anything different than you, me or any other ethical person. So let’s tone down the rhetoric. For those that aren’t aware, there are quite a few locals in Arizona that are feeding the European Crotalus craze…

I will say that the map was an issue…until he took it down. It’s obvious there was no malicious intent (at least to me). From my perspective, he took it down and that is that. No need to start name calling.

-Kris

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by justinm » September 27th, 2012, 8:41 am

It was a mistake, which he rectified as soon as possible, and apologized for. My point is... you didn't NEED to be so rude, and your use of derogatory terms makes it clear who the dipshit is. AND... you been spoken to about it, again and again, both publicly and privately... In a word... it reflects badly on all of us. :( You can't see that? :shock: :roll: jim
I pointed it out! I shouldn't have had to. If he was a part of this community he would know what a cardinal sin this is. You can vehemently protect your friend all you want. He violated the TOS of this forum and the ethical code of being given a spot, let alone many many spots. For that I won't apologize for any strong language, it was well deserved.


Kris,

I didn't accuse him of poaching. I was referring to how cavalier he was in posting locations. If that's the European way, it's no wonder they have all our protected species. When I see European forums filled with Crotalus that I will likely never see, that are protected species. It's like a gut punch. Jim's not getting it as he's blinded by loyalty to a friend who made about the worst mistake a field herper can make. In the state that is known as being the most tight lipped of all things.

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by hellihooks » September 27th, 2012, 9:06 am

justinm wrote:
If he was a part of this community he would know what a cardinal sin this is.
Exactly the point... he's not local, and didn't know better. But yeah... show him the worst we can be, not the best. :roll:
And BTW... We're not actually 'good friends'... I've herped with him for a couple of days... bout enough to know I'm barely qualified to carry his spare shoes... but I try to show respect, where it is due.
The ONLY way to gain respect is to earn it... and you're losing respect for yourself and ALL US herpers... which IS the point. And HAS been discussed, at the administrative level... nuff said? I've said all I'm going to say. jim

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by justinm » September 27th, 2012, 9:09 am

Jim,

Tell me how backing a guy who posts topo maps with locality dots fits into that Ethics discussion that you won't let die? I'm guessing you're all for it?

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by azatrox » September 27th, 2012, 9:10 am

“I didn't accuse him of poaching. I was referring to how cavalier he was in posting locations. If that's the European way, it's no wonder they have all our protected species. When I see European forums filled with Crotalus that I will likely never see, that are protected species. It's like a gut punch.”Jim's not getting it as he's blinded by loyalty to a friend who made about the worst mistake a field herper can make. In the state that is known as being the most tight lipped of all things.”

You’re right….you did not accuse him of poaching. That portion of my post was more in reference to the link posted advertising the C. w. willardi for sale. Sorry for not making that clear.
However, the last portion of my post was directed to your comments. I have no vested interest in what relationship (if any) exists between you, Jim and/or Jeroen…I don’t know any of you guys, so I cannot comment much beyond that.

If he violated the TOS (and I didn’t see this map so I can’t say….I only saw the post after it was taken down), then by all means….PM him and request that he take it down. If he violated the trust of someone by disclosing info that the issuer of said info advised should not be disclosed, then in my mind it is up to that person to address that issue with him.

It is completely possible that the issuer of this info did not advise him what would/would not be permissible to disclose. As such, if Europeans are not as tight-lipped re: locales as Az people are (and I don’t know Europe but I can’t see how ANYONE can be more tight lipped than Az herpers! LOL) then it stands to reason how he could have posted what he posted without any intention of violating anyone’s trust.

I can’t say….I wasn’t involved in any of it.

I can understand your strong feelings re: locales and the need to protect animals…I’m with ya on that 100%....I’d like to think that most here are. However, I do not see where name calling serves any other purpose than emotional release for the person doing it. As such, one’s points (no matter how valid they may be) are often lost when they inject their emotions into their statements.

Just my take.

-Kris

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Brandon La Forest
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by Brandon La Forest » September 27th, 2012, 9:54 am

AndyO'Connor wrote:Actually I'm glad this post didn't go as far south as some AZ help requests have in the past. OP - Good luck whenever you decide to go.
hahahahaha

-Brandon-

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by justinm » September 27th, 2012, 9:58 am

Jim,

This is the post that you got pretty uppity, about localities on this forum http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... d+approach

Have you had a change of heart? I'd hate to think my use of the dipshit term, should override any poor decision making on your friends part? So if I swear or name call it makes it ok for the offending poster to post a location? That's the message I'm getting from you.

Get back to me after you're done chewing on your own foot.

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by jimoo742 » September 27th, 2012, 10:02 am

I know it is a "that's life" sentiment, but it really is a bummer that a few bad eggs ruin it for everyone else. I get very little vacation time, often my trips are adding a day on a three day weekend, so I have to make the most of it. For Arizona (and a lot of places), most of the species are new to me, so I'm easy to please, but it would be great to get some help. Yeah, google earth, topos, and range maps help, but if you don't know the habitat type at all it is very limiting.

But again, I guess that is just life. Sucks.

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by azatrox » September 27th, 2012, 10:28 am

“I know it is a "that's life" sentiment, but it really is a bummer that a few bad eggs ruin it for everyone else. I get very little vacation time, often my trips are adding a day on a three day weekend, so I have to make the most of it. For Arizona (and a lot of places), most of the species are new to me, so I'm easy to please, but it would be great to get some help. Yeah, google earth, topos, and range maps help, but if you don't know the habitat type at all it is very limiting.

But again, I guess that is just life. Sucks.”


Yeah….as with so much in life, a few bad apples can indeed ruin the whole barrel. That’s a big part of why people in Arizona are reluctant to help others. Some choose to slip into their cocoons and not help anyone, and it’s unfortunate they feel the need to do so.

That said, there ARE people in Arizona willing to help "out of staters/country-ers"….We just have to be selective in terms of who we choose to help. Personally, I’ve helped others…but I was sure these people were stand up, ethical individuals before I did.

You’re right…GE, maps, etc. are all useful tools….But there is no substitute for being in habitat.

-Kris

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by hellihooks » September 27th, 2012, 10:47 am

justinm wrote:Jim,

This is the post that you got pretty uppity, about localities on this forum http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... d+approach

Have you had a change of heart? I'd hate to think my use of the dipshit term, should override any poor decision making on your friends part? So if I swear or name call it makes it ok for the offending poster to post a location? That's the message I'm getting from you.

Get back to me after you're done chewing on your own foot.
Thank you for posting that, Justin. I stand by it, and wish more folks new to this forum had a chance to read it, before posting.
For:
Conclusion
My hope in writing this article is mostly that our newer members get a leg up on this often-contentious issue, and gain some understanding as to why some folks post quite differently than they might. My hope is that they, and perhaps even some of the more seasoned guys, consider the type of post, the subject sensitivity, the timing of the post, and the habitat shots they include, to decide which ‘Level of Information Release’ might be considered most appropriate. We go through this stuff every year… with old-timers getting angry, newbies getting ‘flamed’ and some people just getting fed-up and leaving.
We don’t need any of those things, and hopefully, this ‘Level-headed Approach’ to releasing locality information online, will decrease those things. Happy Herping…Jim Bass.


I've CLEARLY detailed my 'message' to you, in the barrage of pm's we've exchanged in the last hr. I won't be party to an online flameout, so PLEASE dude... chill.

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by AndyO'Connor » September 27th, 2012, 12:01 pm

As Brandon pointed out, I spoke to soon, although it spiraled for a different reason so my point still stands. There are two sides to everything, I consider myself a decent herper, but I've done things that warranted being called a dipshit, doesn't mean I'm inable to redeem myself by learning from my mistakes, and hopefully the person that caught me being one doesn't hold that opinion of me forever.

I've said it a few times recently, but this online forum thing can really get guys, who I believe would get along great, really wound up, and I will just say, try not to count an internet first impression or personality against someone. Justin means well, his application can be a little rough/blunt. I think everyone just needs to learn when to walk away from an internet argument instead of hitting the submit to get the last word.

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-EJ
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by -EJ » September 27th, 2012, 12:12 pm

You do realize that this is a control issue that is moot in this day and age. Locality data is freely available to anyone who knows how to use the internet. This kind of banter only detracts form this website.

I enjoy sharing nformation... sorry. That has always been a highlight of this hobby.

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lateralis
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by lateralis » September 27th, 2012, 12:15 pm

You’re right….you did not accuse him of poaching. That portion of my post was more in reference to the link posted advertising the C. w. willardi for sale. Sorry for not making that clear.
Kris, we have spoken in the past while herping other "sacred" spots (I choose to use the word sacred, instead of secret for several reasons) about the issue of showing people where the critters are found and how some areas are somewhat immune to this "divulging of the sweet spots". I think it is due to the inherent secrecy of the animals in question coupled with the incredible amount of perserverance it takes to be successful in some areas (the Mtn. range we were exploring for example).
I did not imply that the Belgians themselves were poachers, my point was that animals that we cherish here do get poached by visitors who have been shown around, and do end up for sale overseas, by folks that visit AZ from afar. Southwestern reptiles, especially crotes, are THE sought after snake in Europe - they represent the core of the American SW reptile experience and people there will pay a shiney penny for one. 6000 Euros comes out to roughly $7,752.94 cents, for one newborn willardi... :shock: Its a silly little rattlesnake and I cannot fathom the fool that would pay the above price. It is not the book of spells, or the secret of true happiness, its a snake and really only slightly more interesting to me than say a tigris or a mollosus (to me tiggers and mollies are prettier). I have found willards and after the initial woohoo, well, its a snake, I took my pictures and kept moving....

The information the Belgians are in possession of is very valuable in a fiscal sense. I can only hope that they do not run to all their friends who are planning trips next year and give them this information. If it is true that these Belgians are honest, standup folks who care more about the species than they do their own pocketbook I am content. The thing to keep in mind is that while they might be good folks, their friends or acquaintences might not be. $$ makes people do funny things, and the last time I checked Europes economy was sharing the same toilet bowl as our own....

Cheers :beer:
Dr. Lateralis

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azatrox
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by azatrox » September 27th, 2012, 12:16 pm

“As Brandon pointed out, I spoke to soon, although it spiraled for a different reason so my point still stands. There are two sides to everything, I consider myself a decent herper, but I've done things that warranted being called a dipshit, doesn't mean I'm inable to redeem myself by learning from my mistakes, and hopefully the person that caught me being one doesn't hold that opinion of me forever.

I've said it a few times recently, but this online forum thing can really get guys, who I believe would get along great, really wound up, and I will just say, try not to count an internet first impression or personality against someone. Justin means well, his application can be a little rough/blunt. I think everyone just needs to learn when to walk away from an internet argument instead of hitting the submit to get the last word.”


Good points Andy….

We’ve all done things that in hindsight (and with a little more knowledge) we wouldn’t have…There are some that can move on from that, and some that choose not to. In my mind, if someone can’t move on, then that says more about their close-mindedness and inability to adapt then it does about me. No one is perfect so to speak, and as long as I’m good with why I do what I do, then that’s the measuring stick I’ll use to judge my own actions/intentions.

Some may disagree, ridicule, whatever…. With some people, you can do everything “right” and they’ll STILL find something to bag on.

As far as judging someone based upon an Internet impression…well, I think we all do it to a certain degree but if we allow said impression to equal the sum total of how I view them as a person, then I should spend a little more time in some self-improvement classes and a little less time bickering online.

Just my .02,

-Kris

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azatrox
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by azatrox » September 27th, 2012, 12:41 pm

"Kris, we have spoken in the past while herping other "sacred" spots (I choose to use the word sacred, instead of secret for several reasons) about the issue of showing people where the critters are found and how some areas are somewhat immune to this "divulging of the sweet spots". I think it is due to the inherent secrecy of the animals in question coupled with the incredible amount of perserverance it takes to be successful in some areas (the Mtn. range we were exploring for example).

I did not imply that the Belgians themselves were poachers, my point was that animals that we cherish here do get poached by visitors who have been shown around, and do end up for sale overseas, by folks that visit AZ from afar. Southwestern reptiles, especially crotes, are THE sought after snake in Europe - they represent the core of the American SW reptile experience and people there will pay a shiney penny for one. 6000 Euros comes out to roughly $7,752.94 cents, for one newborn willardi... Its a silly little rattlesnake and I cannot fathom the fool that would pay the above price. It is not the book of spells, or the secret of true happiness, its a snake and really only slightly more interesting to me than say a tigris or a mollosus (to me tiggers and mollies are prettier). I have found willards and after the initial woohoo, well, its a snake, I took my pictures and kept moving....

The information the Belgians are in possession of is very valuable in a fiscal sense. I can only hope that they do not run to all their friends who are planning trips next year and give them this information. If it is true that these Belgians are honest, standup folks who care more about the species than they do their own pocketbook I am content. The thing to keep in mind is that while they might be good folks, their friends or acquaintences might not be. $$ makes people do funny things, and the last time I checked Europes economy was sharing the same toilet bowl as our own...."


Points well taken Lat....Like you, I sincerely hope that these guys (and anyone for that matter) sees that the real value of these creatures isn't monetary....I too find it ridiculous how much Europeans will pay for a rattlesnake....As much as I love rattlesnakes (and I'm a bonafide "crote-head") I would NEVER pay THAT much for ANY snake.

No arguments that snakes find themselves illegally "across the pond" every year....Too often, this is facilitated (at least in part) by local people who have no regard for the real value of these animals....We as responsible naturalists owe it to these animals to protect them to the extent possible...I would hope that anyone who is privileged enough to find one in the wild feels likewise.

Good to hear from ya! :)

-Kris

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-EJ
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by -EJ » September 27th, 2012, 12:46 pm

It's sad this thread took a turn the way it did. It does kinda point out the old and the new... a little thought is in order.

Peter Engelen
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by Peter Engelen » September 27th, 2012, 12:50 pm

I'm sorry but I'm also one of those Euro dipshit guys, but isn't it better to split this post up in 2 parts. One with people who wants to help Matt to succeed in his Arizona queeste and a different one with people who wants to kick al Euroguys who could make a mistake.

On internet and in the most Arizona herpetobooks you find better info and maps where you can find some of your Mountainrattlers then on Jeroens Orthomap where he only pointed a whole skyislandchain. Don't have the illusion that Europeople can't read books or don't have internet. Even if you know on which Skyisland you have to look for that specific species it will cost you several months before you find this species without an (almost) exact location. I've been on several of those places and I can see on the big amount of flipped rocks (and bears don't flip all the good snake rocks) that those places are frequently visited to herp.
I can give you the name of some small (few square miles) villages in Belgium with only a few 100 habitants and I pretty sure you are not able to find one single Vipera berus their without knowing the exact location

In the USA the line between herper and terrariumkeeper is much smaller then in Europe. In Europe the most herpers don't collect for terrarium and just want to see as much different animals (also lizards, frogs, ...) as possible and some of the bad terrariumkeepers go out to collect just those species they are interested in and will not post anything on internet. So you can not have venomous snakes in Belgium, but when you visit terrariumfairs in other countrys you see indeed a lot of Rattlers but most of them are captive bred.


Greetings from Europe

Peter

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gbin
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by gbin » September 27th, 2012, 12:56 pm

Not to prompt yet another pointless and divisive debate on this topic but just to make it clear to "newbies" (and anyone else who never knew or at some point forgot) that there is actually also an alternate view present among us "old-timers"...

Some of us find it, well,... pointless and divisive to be so protective of herping times and locations, and especially to be so condemning of those who don't behave that way. It's understandable (and in some ways also regrettable) that people often want to keep "their" spots for themselves alone, but we remain convinced that this is virtually all there is to it and that in any practical sense there is really no higher purpose involved. Mind you, we're not saying that no one truly believes in their professed higher purpose (and I can almost guarantee you that what I'm writing will prompt more posts from some of these believers, no matter what I or anyone else might want ;) ), but just that they have persuaded themselves to believe something that isn't true.

Instead of bothering with anyone's official-sounding verbiage on the subject, I suggest instead that folks just employ some common sense:

- Give a thought before sharing information of your own on the internet (this seems to be a good idea in general, not just in herping), but don't feel compelled to jealously guard it just because some other people have said that you should or because they might berate you for doing otherwise. (Keep in mind that this website has its own rules, though, which pertain whether or not you think they are reasonable.)

- If it's instead information that you received from someone else, treat it as theirs and abide by their wishes with respect to whether or how much of it can be shared by you.

- Be careful in what you yourself do with all animals and habitats, especially when dealing with unusually sensitive situations - and of course always obey the law! - and encourage others to behave likewise.

Gerry

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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by -EJ » September 27th, 2012, 1:02 pm

The post was going that way... then it got hyjacked. I was really impressed with the direction the post was going. I really thought things have changed... not.

More food for thought... These people are crackers... Adults?????? I'm just looking for a place for me and my dad to look for herps in AZ.

Minor case in point... Is this divulging locality data...
https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/ojs/index.php/w ... /3320/3663

Google... locality data dot map... (whatever species)
Peter Engelen wrote:I'm sorry but I'm also one of those Euro dipshit guys, but isn't it better to split this post up in 2 parts. One with people who wants to help Matt to succeed in his Arizona queeste and a different one with people who wants to kick al Euroguys who could make a mistake.

On internet and in the most Arizona herpetobooks you find better info and maps where you can find some of your Mountainrattlers then on Jeroens Orthomap where he only pointed a whole skyislandchain. Don't have the illusion that Europeople can't read books or don't have internet. Even if you know on which Skyisland you have to look for that specific species it will cost you several months before you find this species without an (almost) exact location. I've been on several of those places and I can see on the big amount of flipped rocks (and bears don't flip all the good snake rocks) that those places are frequently visited to herp.
I can give you the name of some small (few square miles) villages in Belgium with only a few 100 habitants and I pretty sure you are not able to find one single Vipera berus their without knowing the exact location

In the USA the line between herper and terrariumkeeper is much smaller then in Europe. In Europe the most herpers don't collect for terrarium and just want to see as much different animals (also lizards, frogs, ...) as possible and some of the bad terrariumkeepers go out to collect just those species they are interested in and will not post anything on internet. So you can not have venomous snakes in Belgium, but when you visit terrariumfairs in other countrys you see indeed a lot of Rattlers but most of them are captive bred.


Greetings from Europe

Peter

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justinm
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by justinm » September 27th, 2012, 1:25 pm

EJ,

Most of the time Journals do require specific location data. It's a double edge sword. It's also not a field herping forum with rules against doing that.

Peter Engelen,

Being a European, I would have thought you would have some sensibilities about the laws, customs and beliefs of other countries? We have a saying, "when in Rome, do as the Romans".

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-EJ
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Re: Best time to herp Arizona?

Post by -EJ » September 27th, 2012, 1:35 pm

The point is that with todays internet all this localality data is readily accessable so the discussion of being too specific is moot because most of the locations being discussed have been outed long ago.

You're comment to the europeans... extremely arrogant. I have a feeling why many europeans have a distain towards americans... it's like when you go to their country... the first question is usually... do you speak english?
justinm wrote:EJ,

Most of the time Journals do require specific location data. It's a double edge sword. It's also not a field herping forum with rules against doing that.

Peter Engelen,

Being a European, I would have thought you would have some sensibilities about the laws, customs and beliefs of other countries? We have a saying, "when in Rome, do as the Romans".

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