4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

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Jeroen Speybroeck
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4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » September 25th, 2012, 9:12 am

Back from 2 weeks in herping heaven! Our main desiderata were numerous and most were found, despite unseasonably low (nocturnal) temperatures during an important part of the trip. Some rattlesnake species turned out to be harder to find than anticipated and/or foretold, as we found 7 out of the 10 we aimed at. Other species were mainly 'missed' due to lack of time.

Thanks to those who offered to help. Too bad we were too busy to meet up with more of you ;) ;)

To view the entire photo report, please go here =>
https://picasaweb.google.com/jeroenspey ... ArizonaUSA

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snakes

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long-nose snake

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sonoran desert toad

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peter & atrox

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desert spiny lizard

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canyon treefrog

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baby sonoran desert tortoise

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baby sonoran desert tort

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greater earless lizard

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ornate tree lizard

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adult sonoran desert tortoise

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black coachwhip

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couch's spadefoot

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baby atrox

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glossy

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mnt king n° 1

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sonoran green toad

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red-spotted toad

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narrow-mouthed toad

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great plains toad

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lyre

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mohave rattler

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bi-coloured longnose

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organ pipe cacti

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pink coachwhip

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herper joke

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desert nightsnake

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ambush atrox

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baby goode's horned lizard

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habitat

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Organ Pipe NM

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banded gecko

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regal horned lizard

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on site

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baby gopher snake

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coral snake

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yarrow's spiny lizard

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mnt king n° 2

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green ratsnake (picked up by the competition...)

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wdb

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lyre snake without lyre

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ring-necked snake

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longnose on the move

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lowland leopard frog

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az striped whiptail

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? desert grassland whiptail ?

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common lesser earless

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hog-nose

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gila monster

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gila

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clark's spiny

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gopher snake

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black-tailed rattler

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rock rattler

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gator lizard

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? Chiricahua leopard ?

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? hooded nightsnake ?

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thornscrub hook-nosed

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Mexican spadefoot

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black-necked garter

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brown atrox

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baby elegant lesser earless

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gila n° 2

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sonoran whip

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black-tailed on road

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tiger rattler

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terrestrial garter

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ornate box turtle

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mohave rattler

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gopher in situ

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baby az treefrog

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habitat

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rock rattler

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greater short-horned

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ridge-nosed rattler

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checkered garter snake

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sidewinder

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sidewinder

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Dr. Dark
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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Dr. Dark » September 25th, 2012, 9:39 am

WOW, you four did REALLY well! Congratulations!

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by justinm » September 25th, 2012, 9:54 am

You should take that map with locations down, that is pretty much the antithesis of this forum. It's also expressly forbidden to give out exact locations on the forum. I didn't even look at this post after seeing something so ridiculous as that. If you were given help I'm sure that won't happen again, you've likely more than violated some trust here.

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Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » September 25th, 2012, 10:05 am

justinm wrote:You should take that map with locations down, that is pretty much the antithesis of this forum. It's also expressly forbidden to give out exact locations on the forum. I didn't even look at this post after seeing something so ridiculous as that. If you were given help I'm sure that won't happen again, you've likely more than violated some trust here.
I don't know how you define "exact locations" but that map was imho as vague as can be. It's now (after an online lifespan of less than 1hr) gone anyway, so peace.

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jons
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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by jons » September 25th, 2012, 10:16 am

did u google earth all those places to look?........ or did your helpful tour guides show u them?

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Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » September 25th, 2012, 10:32 am

jons wrote:did u google earth all those places to look?........ or did your helpful tour guides show u them?
Mainly the latter. I had well over 600 waypoints from screening GE, when more precise help was offered and my preparation spots became 2nd choice. Flying through 9 time zones, we were happy with all the help we could get.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Jimi » September 25th, 2012, 11:49 am

Looks like you all had a great time. Glad to see it (and your pics). Come back & do it again.

Cheers,
Jimi

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by hellihooks » September 25th, 2012, 12:25 pm

Wow... you did great Jer. SO MANY herps I hope to one day see. :thumb: and don't feel bad... I had to revise a post this morning cause I was too specific about where MY SON lived... this place is getting ridiculous ... :roll: jim

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Mulebrother » September 25th, 2012, 12:56 pm

Holy $hite.

There are a lot of herpers that have spent their lives herping in AZ and not seen all that stuff, much less on one trip. Wow!

As for the hand slapping- take it with a grain of salt.
You have to understand - herpers have RUINED places like Arizona...i mean, you've just shown us how bad its gotten since some dummy posted that you can find willardi in the huachucas...please refrain from revealing such specific stuff! :lol:

Again, outstanding post!

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Brandon La Forest
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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Brandon La Forest » September 25th, 2012, 2:04 pm

Mulebrother wrote:Holy $hite.

There are a lot of herpers that have spent their lives herping in AZ and not seen all that stuff, much less on one trip. Wow!

As for the hand slapping- take it with a grain of salt.
You have to understand - herpers have RUINED places like Arizona...i mean, you've just shown us how bad its gotten since some dummy posted that you can find willardi in the huachucas...please refrain from revealing such specific stuff! :lol:

Again, outstanding post!

I don't think asking someone to remove a map is that big of a deal, it also shows respect to the people who took them out.

Nice post.

-Brandon-

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Bryan_Hughes
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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Bryan_Hughes » September 25th, 2012, 5:32 pm

Great job! I like the format of the list, too. You came and saw what there was to see. I personally like the look of that mojave.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Neil M » September 25th, 2012, 7:03 pm

Wow that was a damn successful trip! Congrats! Im hoping to plan a spring time trip to AZ and would love success like that!

Neil

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by rosy-man » September 25th, 2012, 11:24 pm

very nice job

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) » September 26th, 2012, 3:35 am

Awesome post. Love the geeky graphs! :-)

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by -EJ » September 26th, 2012, 6:01 am

You guys made out extremely well. Great post and pictures.

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Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » September 26th, 2012, 3:37 pm

Thank you so much for the kind responses. I might not have thought through the impact of this post like some of you might consider necessary, I have to admit. It just comes from a (naive?) desire to share what we enjoyed so much.

It should say "thanks", not "look how good we are" and definitely not "please look at this fantastic place to go and destroy". The snake graph is of course as nerdish as it gets :mrgreen: .

I didn't mind justinm's response that much, so I rather followed his advice than starting an argument as I (now) noticed there have been a lot (too many?) around here. I felt a little bit like it was not particularly friendly phrased towards an honestly ignorant (or stupid, if you like) outsider posting a vague map of waypoints + I don't see why he could not tell me that by pm, rather than in public, but it's not that big a deal, really. In any case, I appreciate the context that was drawn by subsequent friendly posters. It was in fact the evil CA herper Jim 'hellihooks' who made me long for a trip to AZ in the first place...

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by hellihooks » September 26th, 2012, 4:09 pm

:shock: :shock: :shock: I've never even been to S.AZ. much less herped there :shock: I MAY have mentioned how good the herping is supposed to be there, and mentioned some of the herps I hope to someday see. Fat chance of that happening now... :roll: Thx Jer... :x :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Will Wells » September 27th, 2012, 7:12 am

Looks like an awesome trip and hopefully next time I can meet up with you. Congrats on the gilas!!

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by reptilist » September 27th, 2012, 7:26 am

Great post!

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Tamara D. McConnell » September 28th, 2012, 1:46 am

Lovely post, great images.

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Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » September 28th, 2012, 8:21 am

Thanks once more!

Yes, Jim, I don't need much to spawn herping ideas. :lol:
Gila has been on my wishlist like forever, so together with all the cool snakes, the decision was an easy one.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » September 29th, 2012, 8:50 am

First, allow me to relieve this (rather different) post => http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=13484

I hope not to spawn a big discussion (again), but rather to mend things.

It all sounds a liiiiiiiiittle bit like "welcome to this forum. if you make a mistake and admit it, we will still hate you", alternated with some "Europeans are all the same and are here to rob us from our (sic!) biodiversity". I'm sorry for that, but I'm not going to pretend I enjoyed any of it.

Now that I got my own negativity out of the way, here we go...

Justin, I regret you deem it necessary to call me names (what is a ds anyway, other than just meaningless abuse) for something without bad intentions and was followed immediately by (what I would like to consider as) appropriate action. The name calling makes me guess that you don't believe that nothing bad was meant? If so, why would anyone like to divulge sensitive spots to anyone??? I'm probably missing some previous disasters, but I don't see it. Do you think I get a kick out of endangering sensitive species/spots???

Yes, I still think that a map that shows about 2/3 of Arizona (a basic rough-scale GE screengrab with 2 cities and some major highways on it + a bunch of dots, without any names of species etc.) is hardly a topo map of any particular use (other than an illustration of our activities) and thus rather harmless. If you disagree, why don't you take up the challenge of telling me which spots for which species I revealed with that map? I will gladly admit on this forum that I was wrong and you were right, no problem. I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see anything else than "somewhere in the Huachucas we found something". In my humble dipshit opinion, it does/did not disclose any sensitive info at all, as my "cursed" AZ help fully agrees, btw.

The most suitable action might have been perhaps for you to contact site admin and ask them to intervene, dunno... Yet, I understood and respected that you disagreed with me about that map, so I took it down asap. So, why such hostility? I don't see what more I could have done. The true dipshit in me would have responded by putting the map back on, just to show everyone who didn't get a chance in the first place to see it what kind of monster that "topo map" actually is. But I didn't...
You can of course keep calling me names for something that I can never undo...

Why didn't/don't you confront me for this directly, Justin? Via PM seems to me preferable for everyone, certainly as I think I have shown to be understanding and cooperative. Fighting Jim over this for all to read the ugliness of that, seems unnecessary. What's the value for any reader of this forum of that? What good do you intend to achieve by shouting at everyone except the one that might need to hear you? Of course and again, you are free to disagree on this too.

( Why have you never made similar response to when I posted European trip reports including similar (vague) maps? Would you reply the same way if someone showed a map of a small Asian island with names and all? This AZ map I made is imho the same as the one on http://www.hylawerkgroep.be/jeroen/index.php?id=16 - I give you 10 years to find Vipera latastei gaditana on the basis of that map & without hard, hard work).

For any of you who fear that these "Belgians" are a gateway to an army of malicious visitors and events (which for the records is not what I understood from Justin's posts, but from some others), I can only say that I have never and will never keep any herps. I wouldn't even know where to begin. It's all about fieldherping to me. I have traveled for many years with my 3 companions and we had our ample share of conservation issues and discussions along the way. Like many of you, I'm sure, we have learned to keep our mouths shut the hard way. In fact, we are core members of our local herpetological conservation association (http://www.hylawerkgroep.be).
After all, would poachers post a map with sites (considered detailed and informative by some)? :twisted: Sounds silly to me...

Yes, two of us are the only herpers so far to have seen and photographed all European herps, and yes, I am a PhD ecology biologist, but such authority criteria shouldn't even be relevant, imho, to attack, fear, mistrust ... people or not.
If not, please take a second to check these, which hopefully might provide a better character image =>
http://www.hylawerkgroep.be/jeroen/index.php
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... f=2&t=9402
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... f=2&t=9715
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... f=2&t=9418
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... f=2&t=9660
I seem to recall I was even praised at some point by a certain Justin, if you can believe that...
You may also see that I'm the most frequent (and most annoying) poster of the European counterpart of this forum =>
fieldherping.eu

And here's some stuff from the also evil Belgian Peter Engelen, another member of the Fatal Four =>
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=12494
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=12500
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=12487
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... f=2&t=9870

I hope no one means to say this, but it sounds a little like some of you think that Europeans shouldn't be allowed to herp AZ (or the US). I can only say that we were NOT those who caused the chaos of the 5000 dismantled rocks and logs we came across. On the contrary, we were those guys that felt bad for the green rat that was taken to Florida, instead of staying were it belongs. We were those guys that were thrilled to see each and every atrox and got a big smile on our face when finding another of those cute pancake lizards (Phrynos - which I sadly missed in CA last year and sooo much enjoyed seeing now).

I hope I made it clear I don't want a fight with anyone. I am willing to talk about this further, as long as there is at least some kind of understanding in sight at the distant horizon. If not, I guess we will have to agree to disagree and I will think twice about how and if I will post again here in the future.

Sorry for this way too long speech...

g's,

J.

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Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » September 29th, 2012, 9:34 am

BTW 1: what poachers take pics of the most common lizards and toads?

BTW 2: if you check the picasa link, you will see I linked nearly no habitat shot to a place name.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by gbin » September 29th, 2012, 10:14 am

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:It all sounds a liiiiiiiiittle bit like "welcome to this forum. if you make a mistake and admit it, we will still hate you", alternated with some "Europeans are all the same and are here to rob us from our (sic!) biodiversity".
Jeroen, I suggest that you keep in mind that the worst behavior one might encounter in this (or any other) internet forum is no more representative of us as a group than the worst behavior one might encounter in the field is representative of all field herpers (be they from Belgium or any other place). You apparently had a great trip to AZ, saw a considerable number of species and made several new friends there. Many of us here are happy for you, and only wish that we could have met you, too, and shared in your adventure. Hold onto that, and let the rest of this stuff go.

Respectfully,

Gerry

:beer:

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by hellihooks » September 29th, 2012, 10:18 am

Well said, Gerry, and 'spot on'. jim

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by justinm » September 29th, 2012, 10:22 am

Joroen,

I'm calling Jim out because he wrote an enormous post about ethics, regarding posting locations and all kinds of things that he's crawfishing on now. All that after kicking the dead horse for months now. My saying that if you were more a member of the community you would know that it's always been faux pas to post maps, or locations. Some people are known to get upset for showing too much landscape from AZ, or other places. Arizona maybe more so than any where else in all the US. Since it's obvious you had a huge amount of help, I was upset that whoever or whomever helped you showed a lot of naivety, or you showed a lot callous disrespect.

As it's been understood in all my years here on this forum nothing beyond county level data is supposed to be shown. I guess you're claiming ignorance of the customes and regulations for this community? This has been such a point of contention that a lot of people no longer post here at all.

Jim on the other hand wants his cake and to eat it too. He is such a champion of herping ethics, but it's ok for someone as accomplished as you to disregard the rules, since he knows you. He did the same thing when Donald Schulz upset the whole community, I guess if he thinks you're cool it's ok. You may not be privy to some of the huge multi page arguments that have come up just for making an AZ post at the wrong time of the year! Yes AZ is a big deal here in the US, it just felt like you weren't showing respect to that fact.

I don't think you're a bad guy, you're a kindred spirit. I just wish you would have learned the rules or customs a little better.

Justin

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Tamara D. McConnell » September 29th, 2012, 10:36 am

Jeroen,
To follow up the PM I sent you...I think someone is clearly jealous of your ability to travel, and of your grand success in AZ. Do not let this unwarranted negativity bother you. There's always gonna be some miserable curmudgeon who can't stand to see someone else do well. The negativity is not representative of the community as a whole. Rather, it is solely a reflection of the individual's grumpy, discontented state of mind.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by justinm » September 29th, 2012, 10:42 am

My entire post is just riddled with jealousy...

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Tamara D. McConnell » September 29th, 2012, 10:45 am

You made a stupid post about your friend were proven 100% wrong, made to look stupid and can't get over it? Don't make war with me, it's obvious you're outwitted.
And then there's this charmer that was just PMed to me, which I completely do not understand.
Justin, would it kill you to communicate in a non-nasty way? Your bitterness and rudeness is just bizarre. Not at all good PR for the community.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » September 29th, 2012, 10:47 am

gbin wrote:Hold onto that, and let the rest of this stuff go.
Thanks for that. Yet, I guess I'm too talkative myself ;)

Justin, first, whatever quarrel you have with Jim is none of my concern.
justinm wrote:Since it's obvious you had a huge amount of help
Have you ever been to SE AZ and/or prepared a trip there? There is a LOT of info you can gather by yourself + the place is extremely rich (certainly vs. Europe). Yes, we had fantastic & valuable help, but please don't underestimate the skill of the silly Europeans ;) . We find nearly nothing while cruising in Europe reptile-wise, so we're used to work hard. A lot of our AZ herps were found "low effort", on roads. Of course, we were pointed towards to right roads, but more than often we were not the only ones around (= not totally a secret...) + not all of them were just taking pics.
justinm wrote:I was upset that whoever or whomever helped you showed a lot of naivety, or you showed a lot callous disrespect.
Neither. That map doesn't show anything that's not in the AZ field guide maps, if not less. I'm sorry - I respect your disagreement with that, but I'm not changing my mind. Don't forget that I haven't linked a single species to a single dot on my map. If county level is the rule, I have to obey that, of course. I took the map down just because I wanted to avoid this kind of conflict and then someone felt the need to sling some muddy abuse...
justinm wrote:I just wish you would have learned the rules or customs a little better.
If you would have written that from the start, instead of calling me names, this whole sh*tstorm would never happened. I see you are not really afraid to use strong statements towards others. Regardless of your history with those people, I don't see what that's doing in a public forum (or anywhere else...). This is supposed to be about herps, right?

I am very grateful of the (more) positive vibes I got from other people here!!!

Let's leave it at that - I will try very hard, at least ;)

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Soopaman » September 29th, 2012, 10:51 am

justinm wrote:My entire post is just riddled with jealousy...
Lol, I'm glad you didn't keep the original. That was some Eric Cartman level stuff.

Jeroen, looks like you had an excellent time in Arizona. If you ever find yourself in East Texas, feel free to send me a PM.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by justinm » September 29th, 2012, 10:52 am

Tamara D. McConnell wrote:
You made a stupid post about your friend were proven 100% wrong, made to look stupid and can't get over it? Don't make war with me, it's obvious you're outwitted.
And then there's this charmer that was just PMed to me, which I completely do not understand.
Justin, would it kill you to communicate in a non-nasty way? Your bitterness and rudeness is just bizarre. Not at all good PR for the community.
Tamara,

Let me refresh you. Someone posted pics of an Eastern Hognose. A species that is known for playing dead. You said that you were glad that this particular specimen hadn't been handled, was left alone for once and therefore hadn't played dead. Then I stated that to anyone who has any experience with them would know a few things about them, which you clearly don't. First being that some of them play dead if you walk within 10' of them, no handling needed. Second the snake pictures he posted were clearly posed. I said that you were wrong, and you have since had a hatred for me. For I guess making you jealous of my knowledge. Man it must suck to be so jealous. So you may want to stay off my trail.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Tamara D. McConnell » September 29th, 2012, 10:56 am

Justin,
I remember the hognose stuff. I never said the snake had not been handled. I congratulated my friend on NOT stressing the animal to the point that it had to go into faux death throes.
I am sorry your memory is evidently as poor as your manners. I am praying for you, Bro.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by hellihooks » September 29th, 2012, 11:05 am

No Justin,
It was never about 'defending friends' and I stand by my article. My problem was with HOW you expressed your opinions, not with what you were attempting to say. Your ill-thought vulgarity violated both Scott's forum rules and Nafha bylaws, and was more egregious than the map posted, since, from what I gathered, no Ssp's were tied to any waypoints, so it was not locality 'specific' for any given species.

I do find it interesting that you jump to another chapter's defense (AZ is more than capable of voicing their opinions, when it comes to info release) concerning specific locality release, when in your chapter, you have a locality-dot map for milk snakes posted.
Not sure of the geographical origin of this cliche, but it seems a bit like 'the pot calling the kettle black'... :roll:

For your sake (and ours as well) please consider if A) it's your place to say anything, and B) if what you say is in keeping with forum rules and basic etiquette. jim

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by justinm » September 29th, 2012, 11:17 am

Jim,

I'm glad you won't take any culpability about being wrong and not standing behind your own "ethics", that just confirms that you're not a stand up guy.

Why are you even bringing NAFHA into this? I don't even post records, since you and the other people in charge ruined it and do more arguing than I can even comprehend. Is Joroen putting his records into NAFHA? So that's a nice red herring Jim. This wasn't ever about a NAFHA chapter to me. Everyone, Jim is still backtracking on all of his "Ethics" just so that we're clear, which I guess means Jim has some ethical issues. Yes I was rude, and I shouldn't have been. At least I'm not two faced or a liar.

Jeroen,

I'm sorry for being rude, happy herping.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by gbin » September 29th, 2012, 11:45 am

justinm wrote:As it's been understood in all my years here on this forum nothing beyond county level data is supposed to be shown. I guess you're claiming ignorance of the customes and regulations for this community? This has been such a point of contention that a lot of people no longer post here at all.
Just to make sure that no one was misled by what Justin wrote:

No clear customs of our community pertain, and there are no regulations for it beyond those stipulated by law. At its base Justin is speaking simply of a rule for this forum, though I realize that he and some others wish it somehow had much more weight in our community than that. The fact that many others feel otherwise is emphasized by the contention he also mentions above. As I pointed out earlier, many of us see nothing to be gained and much to be lost by people being overprotective of herping information, and especially by people being overzealous in pressing their case (and condemning their philosophical opponents) for such overprotectiveness. Our community is anything but united on this subject, no matter who tries to claim otherwise.

Further, Justin has no more or less authority to speak for our community than I do or anyone else does. He's just one member of our community, expressing his opinions. Others (including me) share some of his opinions and diverge from others. As I said, the only thing at all "official" that pertains here, other than relevant laws, is this forum's rule about what level of information may be posted in this forum about herping locations.

Gerry

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by hellihooks » September 29th, 2012, 12:33 pm

justinm wrote:Jim,

I'm glad you won't take any culpability about being wrong and not standing behind your own "ethics", that just confirms that you're not a stand up guy.
Au Contraire... I stand up for basic 'civility' and 'respect', as I typically do.
justinm wrote:Why are you even bringing NAFHA into this? I don't even post records, since you and the other people in charge ruined it and do more arguing than I can even comprehend. Is Joroen putting his records into NAFHA? So that's a nice red herring Jim. This wasn't ever about a NAFHA chapter to me.
I think the sentence fragment I highlighted, speaks volumes.
You violated Nafha bylaws on a Nafha Chapter forum.
Yes, I believe Jeroen enters the data he collects.

justinm wrote: Everyone, Jim is still backtracking on all of his "Ethics" just so that we're clear, which I guess means Jim has some ethical issues. Yes I was rude, and I shouldn't have been. At least I'm not two faced or a liar.
This claim (besides Again breaking forum rules) is incoherent and logically invalid, but I respect Justin's right to reach erroneous emotion-based conclusions. I generally take umbrage at people calling me either two-faced or a liar... but in this instance, I'll just 'consider the source'.

This isn't/wasn't personal Justin... I've called WAY MORE prominent people than you out, for being rude... and will continue to do so. But I will say... never in all my time on these forums, have I seen someone as 'unrecognized' as you, insult someone as prominent as Jeroen. It was on a par with calling someone like Jeff Lemm a dip$#!^. Do you even, yet, realize that? I hope so. jim

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by justinm » September 29th, 2012, 12:47 pm

Jim,

If you want to bring up NAFHA it was almost done recently if you remember? Why, it was specifically because of lies and deceit from some SoCal members. So the Admin who's one of my best friends was going to quit, leave it all behind and let you guys have it all your way. Lucky for you he's not me, and is a really nice guy. I'll leave it at that!

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by hellihooks » September 29th, 2012, 1:09 pm

justinm wrote:Jim,

If you want to bring up NAFHA it was almost done recently if you remember? Why, it was specifically because of lies and deceit from some SoCal members. So the Admin who's one of my best friends was going to quit, leave it all behind and let you guys have it all your way. Lucky for you he's not me, and is a really nice guy. I'll leave it at that!
That stuff has nothing to do with this thread, and is obviously just posted to 'fan the flames' into a full out conflagration .... I won't be party to that.

But it should be noted, that you just insulted the Ca chapter at large. And BTW... did you check with your 'best friend' before posting what he said? I'm betting 'no'... because you just revealed that the reasons he gave the forum at large, for resigning... were not true. Which makes him... well, I'll leave the name calling to you.
You REALLY should think more, before posting. Quit while you're behind... :roll: Take another stab at me (or whoever) if you must, but be advised, at this point you're only hurting yourself... :( l8r.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » September 29th, 2012, 1:21 pm

hellihooks wrote:Yes, I believe Jeroen enters the data he collects.
For the little contributions they are, I have added all my CA data to NAFHA and will do the same for the AZ stuff, unless my AZ help prefers not to (because that's where I feel my loyalty should be in the 1st place). I personally like to contribute to mapping efforts as much as I can. As far as I know it is a safe data system which might not be driven by hardcore scientific aims, but has an enough noble goal. I'm not going to read a whole encyclopedia to decide.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by hellihooks » September 29th, 2012, 1:38 pm

Thank You Jeroen,
As a Ca Officer, I thank you for your contributions from our fair State...And welcome your return, anytime.
As for your AZ data... good call. Some of your finds are very sensitive, and should quite possibly remain 'closed' entries.
We are in the midst of a major paradigm change, in regard to entering data (in case you didn't know): http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... 32&t=13561

I won't presume to offer advice, just wanted to make sure you knew... :beer: jim

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by justinm » September 29th, 2012, 2:55 pm

Jim,

Remember that you not me brought NAFHA into this, YOU! This forum is NOT a NAFHA forum it's FHF. FHF or Scott graciously allows you to argue about bylaws on his forum, which is FHF. So maybe you should be the one shutting your mouth? Stay ethical Jim, whatever that even means anymore.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by hellihooks » September 29th, 2012, 6:19 pm

justinm wrote:Jim,

Remember that you not me brought NAFHA into this, YOU! This forum is NOT a NAFHA forum it's FHF. FHF or Scott graciously allows you to argue about bylaws on his forum, which is FHF. So maybe you should be the one shutting your mouth? Stay ethical Jim, whatever that even means anymore.
You violated Nafha bylaws, in a Nafha forum, with your ill-thought comments. So as to not further the derailment of a young man's post, Jeroen transferred his reply to this, his post, on FHF. The only way I brought Nafha up was by saying :Your ill-thought vulgarity violated both Scott's forum rules and Nafha bylaws,
The rest has been all you, trying to shift the focus to me, with specious and illogical arguments.

It's our jobs, as IBM's, to enforce Nafha's bylaws, wherever any given violation might occur, whether it be in the field, in a newspaper, or in ANY public venue.

At this point, it's out of my hands... and whether you realize it or not, I've been trying to help you, by making sure you understand the gravity of your actions, and possibly try to redeem yourself... :roll: Regardless of what Scott decides to do, here on FHF, we at the Nafha take our bylaws seriously.

Please wise up... this is NOT between me and you. Any member, officers included, who did what you did, would be facing the same consequences as you soon will be. :( Jim Bass, Ca Regional VP/ International Board Member.

That's my last words, on the subject... PLEASE don't make your next ones literally, your last ones. :roll:

edit...OK... my bad. The original post was on this forum, not a Nafha Forum. Doesn't really matter though Justin, as you are a Nafha member, and still violated the bylaws you agreed to abide by, when you joined.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by justinm » September 29th, 2012, 7:04 pm

Guys, Jim is talking like he's on the sauce. This post the one I commented on, the original map issue, was on the main forum. It had nothing to do with NAFHA, like Jim keeps saying. He's again wrong, dead wrong. Just like he is about following his own ethics code. Jim stop trying to sound like you can ban a fly from coming to this forum. NAFHA is hosted by Scott, but they are separate entities. The post was on FHF. The post that Jim is talking about must be in his version of reality.

Again Joroen, sorry you're right I could have handled it differently and didn't mean to make all your work turn into a cockfight.

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by hellihooks » September 29th, 2012, 7:29 pm

From the bylaws:
Any member facing suspension or termination of his or her Active, Active Chapter or Chapter memberships has the right to address his or her accusers on a forum open to fellow members for a period of no less than 14 days.

Yes... we'll have plenty of time to discuss this, soon. :thumb:
Btw the way... when apologizing to someone... spell their name right... :roll:

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by gbin » September 29th, 2012, 7:39 pm

hellihooks wrote:At this point, it's out of my hands... and whether you realize it or not, I've been trying to help you, by making sure you understand the gravity of your actions, and possibly try to redeem yourself... :roll: Regardless of what Scott decides to do, here on FHF, we at the Nafha take our bylaws seriously.

Please wise up... this is NOT between me and you. Any member, officers included, who did what you did, would be facing the same consequences as you soon will be. Jim Bass, Ca Regional VP/ International Board Member.
And now just to make sure that no one was misled by what Jim wrote:

As hard as he sometimes tries to make it sound otherwise, Jim, too, is just another member of our community participating in this forum. He might or might not have some kind of "official" position in NAFHA (which from his and a few others' behavior sounds like nothing more than a foolish, ego-driven club) - I wouldn't know and don't really care - but here and elsewhere in our community he has no more and no less authority to speak for our community or against one of its members than Justin does, I do, or anyone else does.

Yeah, I know it's foolishness on my own part to get into the spat between Justin and Jim, which I assure one and all I have no interest in, but what can I say? All of that outrageous pomposity finally got to me. :roll:

"We now return to your regularly scheduled program, 'As the Herp World Turns,' already in progress..."

Gerry

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by hellihooks » September 29th, 2012, 7:57 pm

You are correct Gerry, on this forum, I have no more say than anyone else. The discussions I refer to, won't be taking place on this forum. but rather, the Nafha Members Only Forum, where our Bylaws are the law. Other than to uphold those bylaws, IBM's have no power to make any changes, except in certain cases, like this:
Suspension or termination is equal to the suspension or termination of the individual's right to vote in NAFHA national and chapter polls and elections, and the right to post on private NAFHA forums. The term of suspension shall be determined by the International Board of Directors. At no time shall a NAFHA member's right of access to his or her records in the HERP database be revoked or denied.
The IBM, in this case, votes, not the general membership.

Guess you'll have to join, to get a ticket to that show... :lol: :lol: jim

edit... on a personal note Gerry, it is never my intent to sound pompous... I believe it is demeaning and insulting to 'talk down' to people, so maintain the level of communication I have become accustomed to using, in formal debate. I would hope that a Man of Letters, such as yourself, might appreciate that. But hey... I CAN go extemporaneous... hell... downright goofy, when appropriate :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol:

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by gbin » September 29th, 2012, 8:11 pm

hellihooks wrote:... The discussions I refer to, won't be taking place on this forum. but rather, the Nafha Members Only Forum...
Then why don't you keep them there, and cease with all of the childish grandstanding here?
hellihooks wrote:Guess you'll have to join, to get a ticket to that show... :lol: :lol: jim
More than ever, I'm not interested.

Gerry

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by justinm » September 29th, 2012, 8:25 pm

Jim,

You've brought up NAFHA a bunch of times, in this thread. The rest of it that you're talking about was only in your alternate reality, where he (the OP) posted it in a NAFHA subforum, and I made the excact same comments.

I didn't bring anything up in NAFHA, you did! If anyone is making NAFHA look bad it's you, if you're wanting to get me reprimanded I think you're going to find it's going to hurt you a lot worse than me. It's a bunch of hens like you arguing "bylaws" and other inane shit, that's making NAFHA look bad. So maybe you need to get "banned" or in whatever trouble you're brewing, for bringing up the name of NAFHA so many times while you act a fool.

Now who's the pot calling the kettle black! Jim I think you'll find with NAFHA I have a farther reach and stronger grip with who holds sway. If you want to keep it up, we can just take the gloves off?

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Re: 4 Belgians, 2 weeks, AZ

Post by hellihooks » September 29th, 2012, 8:47 pm

gbin wrote:
hellihooks wrote:... The discussions I refer to, won't be taking place on this forum. but rather, the Nafha Members Only Forum...
Then why don't you keep them there, and cease with all of the childish grandstanding here?
Gerry
Quite frankly... to emphasize the point that there are in fact, major differences between FHF and Nafha, and to let potential Nafha members know that we (the Nafha) have rules... and use them. :thumb:

Justin... my 'code of ethics' prevent me from discussing this further, as it is now an actionable item in the IB.

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