How Data collection is killing my love to herp

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hellihooks
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How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by hellihooks »

I've spent the majority of my life as a Gaiast (We believe that the earth is sacred, and thus we live in Sacred Space at all times.) and communing with nature is my Church.
And while I know all the good reasons for data collection, and support them, the unremitting demand to quantify and qualify every thing I see, is seriously detracting from the pleasure and peacefulness I have always derived from just experiencing Nature. Herps are fast becoming a means to an end, rather than an end unto themselves.
That I have to take something away, even a picture, from every encounter, seems to take me further and further away from being 'one with' nature, and puts me outside, as an observer.
And the general attitude and constant pushing for DATA,DATA,DATA... makes me not want to even go out.
Lately I've been taking long walks out in nature, with no camera, temp gun, ect, to try to get back to who I've always been... a nature lover. to sit on a rock, and watch side blotches go about their little lives. To watch a hawk, watching me... from high above, without thinking about how and if I can get a picture of it.
Maybe it's just burn out... more likely a need for some moderation.
I don't know what to say... or if anyone else feels this way.
All I know is I'm to the point where the incessant demand to collect data on everything I see, is killing the joy I get from being out in nature. Ain't life strange? :roll: jim
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JAMAUGHN
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by JAMAUGHN »

I definitely see where you're coming from with this. I've been resisting a gps unit and other such equipment, because I'm pretty sure the more gear I have to carry, the less interested I'll be in walking out. The camera doesn't much bother me (yet), but mainly because it's the only way I can figure out what that little brown blotch on the rock or up in the sky is. Once I get my glasses prescription updated, who knows?

I think, as you said, moderation is the answer. Data collection is important, and can even enhance one's love of the outdoors. Lately, for example, I've been focusing on photographing things, mainly bugs and birds, that I can't identify, and then trying to learn what they are, and how they live. It's been very enjoyable.

Doing something you love until you don't love it anymore is no good to anyone. (It's also, in my experience, the motto of grad school, but that's another story...)

JimM
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Mike Waters
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Mike Waters »

Lmao, data collection is a choice, your welcome to enjoy nature as you wish, enter or dont enter. And this is kinda hard for me to believe coming from someone that collects everything he sees. Yeah yeah its for your lecture or whatever. Get off your high horse Jim, get out there and poach some herps.
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by hellihooks »

I don't do herp talks anymore, don't collect anymore, and pretty much down to milks and a few cb rosys, and two helleri.
I ain't gonna say nothing bad about you Mike. l8r....
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by RobertH »

I hear you, Jim. Data collection shouldn't kill the pure joy of being outdoors. I have substantially cut back on the quantity of records that I enter compared to last year, essentially for the same reason.

However, I can't help but wonder whether your feelings about data collection aren't, at a deeper level, related to your obvious disenchantment with what is going on with the California chapter as a community. As Zach pointed out, we seem deeply divided and it isn't much fun hanging out on the forum anymore. And I just received a mail from another major contributor (who I will not name) who has quit the forum (but will continue to enter data and attend surveys).

Maybe, we ought to have a conversation at some point about exactly what our members want from this forum.

Do we like the forum the way it is?

Do we want to continue with our exclusive "code of silence" and secrecy?

Do we want to continue flaming each other over what are often petty non-issues?

Do we want to continue deter potential (and actual) members with what is, at least to outsiders, a threatening environment ruled by sarcastic (and lately even anonymous) one liners?

Or:

Do we want to make changes to the forum?

Do we want to project an image of inclusion, help out newbies, and create a non-threatening atmosphere?

Do we want start treating each other with respect?


Unless we can get these issues resolved at some point, I will probably follow in Zach's and Lou's foot steps sooner rather than later, and limit my involvement to surveys and data entry.

Sorry to hijack your thread, Jim. I hope that, at least in spirit, I didn't take it too far off-track.

Robert
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Fundad »

Everyone got there wish, we are losing this forum.

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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Herpetologist115 »

Fundad wrote:Everyone got there wish, we are losing this forum.

Fundad
What do you mean losing it? :(
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Fundad »

See global sticky above.

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hellihooks
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by hellihooks »

No Robert... that's fine. When all the other chapter officers/IC stepped down last year, after learning Nafha was not in fact an autonomous organization, I (ever the optimist) stayed on in the hopes that Nafha might one day become autonomous, and not just (as Scott describes us) a "social networking tool to help add to the database."
The recent announcement by Scott that all the chapter forums will be combined into one forum tells me my hopes were unfounded, and Nafha will never reach it's true potential of becoming the Audubon Society for herps.
So my disenchantment with Nafha is global, not local, specifically in that Scott's action were in direct opposition to everything Nafha was supposed to be about... member choice. But hey... it's his site... he can (obviously) do anything he wants, leaving us with the choice to like it or leave. I don't like it... so I'll be leaving, when my term is up.
The really sad part is, we (the IB) brought this upon ourselves... in that rather than doing something as simple as including a 'respect each other' disclaimer somewhere in our literature, we instead abrogated all moderation duties over to Scott. I can see how, by necessity, he had to combine all the forums into one, rather than have to moderate 8 chapter forums.
This lack of fortitude in the IB, tells me that we don't deserve to be a 'real' organization, and I'm tired of trying to maintain the facade.

I loved being part of the Ca Chapter, even with the tiffs and trolls and annual boardline debates... all worth the many friends I've made, and the good times had.

The data collection thing is more of a personal thing... I want to get back to enjoying nature, not quantifying it. I'm sure I'll get back to collecting data again, sometime in the future... perhaps around the time I no longer feel guilty for NOT collecting data (if that makes sense).

I AM NOT trying to discourage anyone from collecting data and submitting it... it's the one way we have of 'giving back' in a concrete way, to the herps we all love. You collect data FOR the herps... not for yourself (with a few exceptions... :roll: ) Just make sure when herping, you leave yourself time to appreciate the herps for what they are, and not JUST a photo subject or source of data. :| cyaaaaaaaaaaaaa. jim
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Jimi »

the incessant demand to collect data on everything I see
Say what? That's just silly, where did that idea come from? As said already here, data collection - or, I will add, any other form of community participation here - is a personal choice. If you've misinterpreted, or allowed, social pressures to compel you into unsustainable behavior, well that's a shame.

One way for all of us to cut ourselves some slack in this department, yet still participate & contribute, would be to FOCUS our data collection efforts. Enjoy (in a notes- and photos-free way) all those fence lizards, gopher snakes, and west-side helleri, and limit the data collection to "more interesting" observations - Mohave "insular" Sonora and Diadophis, etc. "More interesting" is up to your interpretation, and if you like you can get an assist from "the pros" at museums, agencies, NGOs, etc.

Those who remain motivated by a competitive streak can keep on racking up awesome scores. Nobody needs to get all anxious about this fun we're supposed to be having.
Maybe, we ought to have a conversation at some point about exactly what our members want
Good idea. It's a lesson that's been learned the hard way many times over, in other places. It would be a shame for a data-less interpretation of members' desires to be a contributing factor to the decision to collapse all the sub-forums into one.

Cheers,
Jimi
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by hellihooks »

You can't post anything here without someone asking you if you're going to enter it in the database. Fair enough... we are a 'data collecting tool' and I've certainly done my share of database advocating. But to me (at least) it seems to be getting to the point where nothing matters but your data numbers, and it becomes a measure of who you are, and how important you are. There's more to life than just data collection, and I'm starting to miss it. Like I said... this is a personal thing I'm going through, and I'm not trying to influence anyone else into not collecting data. If it's fun for you... have at it.
As a neo virtue theorist, I should have known better, and practiced more moderation... but I didn't and will now work towards getting back to a more 'perfect means between extremes' (your suggestions, which I'd been thinking about, already)
I actually posted this, as a partial explanation of why I'll be taking an extended break (sabbatical?) from internet forums. It's not just my disgust with the direction Nafha has taken...it's personal as well.
Frankly... don't really care what anyone thinks about how I feel. Right or wrong, silly or profound...doesn't matter... it is what it is.
I always like what you bring to the table Jimi, and my open invitation to herp my neck of the woods definitely includes you. You can collect data on the herps we see, and I'll write Haiku about them... :lol: :lol: :lol: jim
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Mike Waters »

Your really trying to make something out of nothing. If you dont want to enter data then dont. I dont enter data any more. Brian is a huge advocate of dat entry, he and i are really good friends. He doesnt push me to enter data. We discuss it and share different opinions of the data base at the moment. Now get some tissues and wipe away your tears.
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Mr. Woolery »

hellihooks wrote:You can't post anything here without someone asking you if you're going to enter it in the database. Fair enough... we are a 'data collecting tool' and I've certainly done my share of database advocating. But to me (at least) it seems to be getting to the point where nothing matters but your data numbers, and it becomes a measure of who you are, and how important you are. There's more to life than just data collection, and I'm starting to miss it. Like I said... this is a personal thing I'm going through, and I'm not trying to influence anyone else into not collecting data. If it's fun for you... have at it.
Ad a neo virtue theorist, I should have known better, and practiced more moderation... but I didn't and will now work towards getting back to a more 'perfect means between extremes' (your suggestions, which I'd been thinking about, already)
I actually posted this, as a partial explanation of why I'll be taking an extended break (sabbatical?) from internet forums. It's not just my disgust with the direction Nafha has taken...it's personal as well.
Frankly... don't really care what anyone thinks about how I feel. Right or wrong, silly or profound...doesn't matter... it is what it is.
I always like what you bring to the table Jimi, and my open invitation to herp my neck of the woods definitely includes you. You can collect data on the herps we see, and I'll write Haiku about them... :lol: :lol: :lol: jim
A neo what? :roll:

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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Porter »

Whats a sticky...?
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Ross Padilla »

Porter wrote:Whats a sticky...?
You seriously don't know what a sticky is? :D Its one of those threads at the top of the forum that never move.
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by hellihooks »

Mike Waters wrote:Your really trying to make something out of nothing. If you dont want to enter data then dont. I dont enter data any more. Brian is a huge advocate of dat entry, he and i are really good friends. He doesnt push me to enter data. We discuss it and share different opinions of the data base at the moment. Now get some tissues and wipe away your tears.
Cliff notes
I'm tired of the crap, I'm tired of being an officer in a pretend organization, and I'm done.
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Calfirecap »

Contrary to Jim's lost pleasure in herping associated with data collection, I for one feel that the Data Base has actually enhanced my enthusiasm for herping. To me there is more meaning and value in collecting data that can be used for research and wildlife conservation than just the intrinsic value herping provides. I can also say without a doubt, my observational skills have been enhanced by paying closer attention to the weather, habitat details, etc. I just recently filled my first Field Herping Log Book which has served me as a great reference tool, and I designed that to work the Data Base.

Lawrence
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by hellihooks »

Calfirecap wrote:Contrary to Jim's lost pleasure in herping associated with data collection, I for one feel that the Data Base has actually enhanced my enthusiasm for herping. To me there is more meaning and value in collecting data that can be used for research and wildlife conservation than just the intrinsic value herping provides. I can also say without a doubt, my observational skills have been enhanced by paying closer attention to the weather, habitat details, etc. I just recently filled my first Field Herping Log Book which has served me as a great reference tool, and I designed that to work the Data Base.

Lawrence
Very valid points, Lawerence, and exactly how I spent the last 4 out of 5 years feeling.
But now, for me, at least---
Intrinsic..........................................................me.Extrinsic

I need to get back to:
Intrinsic.............................me..................................Extrinsic
It's about finding that perfect balance, to make herping AND data collection enjoyable again.
And hopefully, if anyone else starts to 'lose the fun', this can be something to think about. You should collect data because you want to... not because you feel obligated to. :thumb: jim
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

I agree 100% with Lawrence. Collecting data for the database and seeing it being used for the good of the herps has made field herping more enjoyable for me, and inspires me to get out more often than I probably would without it.

NAFHA is not important. The HERP database is what's important, which is why I've been preaching separation for the past year.
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Richard F. Hoyer »

Jim:
If you wish to re-connect to nature and the earth in a different manner, I suggest you look into entering falconry.

As a side note, I once trained / hunted a male Red-tailed hawk I named Gaia.

Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by hellihooks »

Thank you Richard,
I have friends who are falconers, and have rehabilitated GWH owls in the past. A little to rich for my pocketbook, currently... but bait's pretty cheap, and the fish are biting... :D saw a pair of collard lizards on the rock dam, last time I went, which was cool, and the first I'd seen them there... :thumb: jim
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Owen »

Calfirecap wrote:Contrary to Jim's lost pleasure in herping associated with data collection, I for one feel that the Data Base has actually enhanced my enthusiasm for herping. To me there is more meaning and value in collecting data that can be used for research and wildlife conservation than just the intrinsic value herping provides. I can also say without a doubt, my observational skills have been enhanced by paying closer attention to the weather, habitat details, etc. I just recently filled my first Field Herping Log Book which has served me as a great reference tool, and I designed that to work the Data Base.

Lawrence
That's interesting. Back in high school, I used to hike with a note pad, tape measure and I caught most stuff. I brought my camera, but with film prices, I photographed only exceptional or new stuff. If I had to write stuff down now, it would take the enjoyment out of hiking. Now with GPS (I use a 30 sec. position log) and a camera, I can record where I was and what I saw. If I needed to enter a record, I can approximate temp. The only problem with 'vouchering' is that I find I'm not taking time to compose and I'm just taking voucher shots. That said, it only takes extra time at night to process photos and enter data. Who cares if I miss 'Dancing with the Stars' :lol:
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by gbin »

The great thing about a hobby is that you can participate however often or seldom you like at whatever level you like, and even step entirely away from it and later come back to it if you like. In contrast, the lack of such freedom is why they have to pay people for their jobs. ;)

With respect to NAFHA, I'm not surprised that some people are burning out on it. As serious and competitive as folks typically make their NAFHA data collection out to be, it seems to me that burn-out is inevitable.

Gerry
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by inuk »

hellihooks wrote:All I know is I'm to the point where the incessant demand to collect data on everything I see, is killing the joy I get from being out in nature. Ain't life strange? :roll: jim
Yep, know what you mean. I enjoyed Reef Check and hope to return to it when I'm back in the water, but it's not something I do every dive I do. Which is why I wasn't collecting data on the trip I joined last weekend. I'm out to enjoy nature for what it is. Enjoy your break from data collecting! :)
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by michael68 »

Nice post hellihooks. I still have a good bit of unentered data but I don't plan on adding anything else to the database anymore with the way things are going, it would be a waste of time. Not that I see that many cool things anyway but still lol.

I still think it's a good idea to write down data for your own benefit. Only takes a moment to jot down basic stuff like temp, humidity, etc, location, behavior, or whatever to learn more about a species you're especially interested in.
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Fundad »

Entering data and contributing to something greater than me renewed my passion for herping on so many levels.

I was bored with herping, as I had accomplished most everything I set out to do over 30 years.

After entering a few records, the UC Davis data request came in... Man, I was ashamed at how few records I had.
That started my data fever..

Snakes were my main target as always, but my scorecard rankings needed more lizards/frogs etc. So I started chasing those around trying to photo them in the field, something that was beneath me, previously. :lol: I gained a greater appreciation
of species outside of my previously targeted species (Z's, Boas, Kings, Milks etc).

Finding BB Salamanders in SB county meant something all of a sudden, "County Record" wo ho.. :lol: It Made herping fun again, knowing that my new found herping adventures, might help with a better understanding, conservation, and management of our wonderful herps.



Finding a Leopard frog in Riverside county gets high fives nowadays.. :lol:

That said, I also take the time to enjoy nature and stop to take it all in.. Nothing like herping up to the top of a very large hillside, then sit at the top of it all, eating your lunch, sipping on a cool drink overlooking a beautiful valley.

With my db entries nowadays, I have mapping projects, density projects, species targets, county records targets, more Mexico records targets, etc etc nowadays. There are a ton of hillsides I need to visit to enter data from now, andI won't have time to visit them all, and thats a good problem to have..



Fundad
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Phillodactylus »

I think I'll weigh in. It was a really slow couple weeks in the beginning of August that got me back into the DB. I had found a ruber in what I thought was North of their known range. I thought immediately, hey, you haven't checked the NAFHA database. Lets look and see if there are any San Berdoo county records. I found out there were indeed a few, and then it hit me. Gosh Phil, this database is stinkin' awesome! You can see pictures of nearly any North American herp, and what's better? If you add to the Database, you get to be a part of it! You can bet I was drooling over those Giant Horned Lizards and tons of others.

Then I thought about all the pictures of herps I had taken over the years, and how they were taking up memory space on my computer. And so I began to add to the DB, and then I looked at my NAFHA lifelist. Sure, I've seen lots more herps than are on that list, but it gave me a new purpose! Go out with friends and enjoy nature, and while they learn, you teach. Re-visit your herping spots, and enjoy the heck out of the experience.

I was just thinking that even though the greater bulk of my records might be "un-interesting" maybe someone else liked what I was adding. My small hope was confirmed when I got a comment on an Uta telling me that they loved Utas and to keep on diving for the picture. This stuff is fueling my love to herp!

I'm sorry its not doing that for you, Jim. But hey, if you want to show me around, enjoy nature, and let ME take pictures and enter into the DB, I'm all for that! :lol: Have a great one, buddy.

best regards,
-Phil
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Post by Porter »

Ross Padilla wrote:
Porter wrote:Whats a sticky...?
You seriously don't know what a sticky is? :D Its one of those threads at the top of the forum that never move.
Thats what I thought... cause the icon kinda looks like a spit wad... :lol: Where the one entitled: REASON WE ARE GETTING RID OF CHAPTERS :?:
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by hellihooks »

Thx Phil.
And thank everyone who chimed in... re-hearing all the good reasons for data collection has helped. I think I've made it back to 'Ambivalent'... :lol:
I really am looking forward to trying for some of those 'hard to find' things in our area, Phil. I like seeing others get lifers as much as getting one myself. you can have all the data... :beer: jim
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Richard F. Hoyer »

Jim:
Falconry can be expensive if flying a large falcons and purchasing food (quail) for your raptors. That is one of the reasons I no longer fly falcons. With one exception the past 20+ years, I have hunted with Red-tailed Hawks and / or Harris's Hawks. All but one of those hawks were either trapped or taken on as gifts as is the case with my current female HH Conchita who is into her 13th season.

Not being well off financially throughout my 'productive' years, I have always been a low-budget falconer. The mews (enclosures) I have constructed for my raptors have been from materials I scrounged. The only purchases made have been for nails, door latches, pvc pipe for windows, and some 2" X 4" hardware fencing for my outdoor weathering enclosure. All of my hawks have caught all of their own food and much surplus that I donate to other falconers and one breeder of Harris's Hawks.

The largest expense is the three year license of about $100 here in Oregon (may be more in Calif.) and the cost of gas to nearby hunting sites.

My middle name use to be 'fish' but in recent years, my fishing has petered out and now my total spare time is devoted towards chasing snakes (Rubber Boas) during the spring through early fall and hunting Conchita from mid Sept. through the end of April.

Richard F. Hoyer
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by hellihooks »

Thx again Richard, for the encouragement...
but, truth be told... 013 will be a major re-structuring year for me... not even sure if I'll stay in Ca. My herp collection is down from 100+ to less than ten, my remaining dog is on her very last legs, and my last kid is moving out in two weeks (like it or not... :lol: ) I don't want to take up any hobby that would limit my mobility. The fish I can eat... rather than have to feed... :lol: :lol: jim
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Richard F. Hoyer »

Jim:
Fish is likely to be better for you than rabbit. But during the 90's, because my hawks were so consistent in taking quarry, I was eating rabbit in every way possible, fried, baked, broiled, in salads, casseroles, in sandwiches, etc.

Hope all turns out well for you next year.

Richard F. Hoyer
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Re: How Data collection is killing my love to herp

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

Richard F. Hoyer wrote:But during the 90's, because my hawks were so consistent in taking quarry, I was eating rabbit in every way possible, fried, baked, broiled, in salads, casseroles, in sandwiches, etc.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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