Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

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davhug1
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Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by davhug1 »

Living in northeast pa, i've noticed many people claim that the copperhead is an aggressive snake as opposed to the docile nature of the timber rattlesnake, some of these people are firends of mine, and though my knowledge is extremely limited, my arguement falls on deaf ears. Anyone around copperheads have any experience like this, where they've actually come after you even when given them a safe distance. I'm hearing stories too, about the cottonmouth, which obviously isn't in my area, that they are ultra aggressive, which i again believe to be complete hogwash. Please weigh in on your thoughts if you would. Thank you.
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walk-about
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by walk-about »

davhug1,

Not an expert on this matter, but I will give my two cents. I live in the upper south - border of KY and TN. There are four species of venomous snakes where I live. Easily the copperhead the most 'aggressive' when compared to the other three - cottonmouth, timber and pygmy ratter. And it ain't even close.

RocK ON!

Dave
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cbernz
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by cbernz »

I have never encountered a copperhead that did anything except run like greased lightning when I got too close. The timbers I've found usually run when I get too close, too, except more slowly. The cottonmouth is the only one I've seen stand its ground, gape, and strike, so in terms of aggressiveness on the ground, I would rate cottonmouths clearly more aggressive than the other two. Aggressiveness in hand or when cornered and manipulated with a snake stick might be a totally different story, though. My experience is strictly watch and photograph. I have a hard time imagining a copperhead as anything close to aggressive when in its environment.
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cbernz
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by cbernz »

Also, the next time someone tells you a snake "came after" him or chased him or anything like that, you might want to smell his breath for alcohol and/or check his pupil dilation.
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walk-about
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by walk-about »

Cbernz,

Try this experiment sometime. Put on a pair of snake proof boots (if you trust them) and step towards a coiled cottonmouth, timber or copperhead....and see which one strikes you over and over again. I promise it won't be the timber or the cotton. Granted, snakes are like any other wild animals, and each has its own 'personality' per say. True that most copperheads will haul ass. But, when either of those three species I just mentioned feel cornered, the copperhead is the 'one'.
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

Cottonmouths are one of the two snakes I see the most (I live on the edge of a swamp). I've never seen one behave aggressively...and I can't tell you how many times I have been photographing or just observing one, and I belatedly notice the other one right by my foot. They seem to be amazingly forgiving animals. Even when a cottonmouth wanders into the yard, and we have to manipulate the snake to remove it so our chickens don't harass it, the cottons so far have only tried to flee.
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walk-about
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by walk-about »

'Aggressively' defending itself. Yes. I would likely bite. But snakes likely react on 'instinct'. My point was that of those three species - the timber, copper and cotton, - they do not behave the same.
Terry Vandeventer
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by Terry Vandeventer »

First consider the terms "aggressisve" and "defensive." The only snakes that can be considered truly aggressive are those extremely rare giant constrictors that, upon occasion, attack people with the intent of eating them. Venomous snakes are not aggressive. A pair of King Cobras protecting a nest might attack a person who comes too close, but they are being defensive, not aggressive.

A cottonmouth opening his mouth is not threatening or attacking. He's offering a flash signal to catch your attention so that you'll back off. I have a bad habit of sticking the toe of my leather shoe in the gaping mouth, and I can't remember one ever biting down. (Disclaimer: I've done this with hundreds, but you don't need to try this yourself. Just take my word. :shock: ) My wife always comments, "The reputation of the cottonmouth is greatly exagerated."

We as humans misinterpret the snake's actions, applying human characteristics to a non-human organism. Many vipers and pitvipers have a chiseled, angular shape to the head which gives the snake a frowning or scowling look that is probably recognizable to mammalian predators. We say that cottonmouths and copperheads are "mean." They are not. Within reason, a snake can only bite you if you approach it, either accidently or intentionally. The snake is peaceably minding his own business when suddenly they see a six foot tall, heat-emitting, creature hovering over them. They can chose to remain still, run away, or fight. A snake doesn't know what you are. He's never seen one of you before and you are a scary thing.

Some snakes are certainly more defensive when cornered than others. Here in the Deep South, copperheads are far more likely to bite defensively than cottonmouths.

Cheers,

TV
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walk-about
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by walk-about »

Well said Terry.
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cbernz
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by cbernz »

I've stepped over, next to, and practically on top of timbers, and the worst I have gotten is a rattle, never a strike. I'll take your word for it that a cornered copperhead will strike repeatedly - luckily I've never cornered one, although I have flipped at least 2 pieces of cover where my fingers were within inches of a concealed copperhead, and all they did was freeze momentarily and then flee. Most cottons I have seen were either hunting in a cypress swamp oblivious to my presence, or coiled stoically in leaf litter, but on the few occasions I have walked up on one in a road (like Snake Rd.) it was more than happy to gape and strike. As Terry pointed out, perhaps it's not fair to call that "aggressive," but I would say they are at least more stubborn than some other snakes. Then again, behavior can vary between locations and times of year.

But to get back to the original poster's comment, I hope we can all agree that stories of snakes pursuing people or in any way seeking out aggressive interactions with large mammals fall into the broad, murky category of folk myth, along with "hoop snakes" and "3-steppers."
davhug1
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by davhug1 »

cbernz wrote:I've stepped over, next to, and practically on top of timbers, and the worst I have gotten is a rattle, never a strike. I'll take your word for it that a cornered copperhead will strike repeatedly - luckily I've never cornered one, although I have flipped at least 2 pieces of cover where my fingers were within inches of a concealed copperhead, and all they did was freeze momentarily and then flee. Most cottons I have seen were either hunting in a cypress swamp oblivious to my presence, or coiled stoically in leaf litter, but on the few occasions I have walked up on one in a road (like Snake Rd.) it was more than happy to gape and strike. As Terry pointed out, perhaps it's not fair to call that "aggressive," but I would say they are at least more stubborn than some other snakes. Then again, behavior can vary between locations and times of year.

But to get back to the original poster's comment, I hope we can all agree that stories of snakes pursuing people or in any way seeking out aggressive interactions with large mammals fall into the broad, murky category of folk myth, along with "hoop snakes" and "3-steppers."
Thanks for the information and experiences guys, myself being new to this and inexperienced, people surely aren't going to take my word for it. I've had woman at state parks claiming the northern water snakes were actually water moccasins, obviously wrong, i knew better, i've had guys saying black rat snakes were mating with copperheads, etc, and i still have friends that kill gaRTER snakes when they see them in they're gardens, dispite me telling themselves there's no danger or risk at all.
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Jeff
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by Jeff »

The pitvipers of the eastern United States are ambush predators that rely on prolonged periods of rest and ambush posture. Their first defensive tool is to remain motionless, secondly to feign terror (e.g., open mouths or rattle tails), thirdly to defend when attacked, followed by retreat if possible I regularly receive calls about snakes that acted "aggressively" while being beaten to death by kudgels. In Louisiana, the cottonmouth is considered a very aggressive snake, but I believe Bruce Means had the most cognitive answer based on his personal experience: cottonmouths will advance on a percieved threat if that threat is active between the snake and its accustomed safety retreat. Bruce told me that, based on his personal experience, cottonmouths will advance toward a human threat, in strike mode, until it can reach safety in an aquatic or other environment, even if it means passing between ones feet.
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walk-about
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by walk-about »

Jeff,

That is an interesting observation by Bruce Means. I have experienced the same behavior from Kentucky cottonmouths in the vicinity of their den sites - usually around sandstone bluffs. On a number of occasions while photographing them, I have (unknowingly at the time) placed myself between said snake and its den entrance, and the snake would come right at me.

And I have also seen cottons do the same thing if their eye shields were caked in dry mud - usually the case during spring emergence in KY, where there was a threat and the snakes would appear to 'charge' slowly but aggressively - this could make for a pretty dangerous situation, especially on uneven ground where the snakes could get good leverage for a strike. Usually I would be just down hill of them, say seven or eight feet. A big cotton, say one of 4 feet in length, and on a hillside striking 'downwards' can produce some pretty intense moments.

But outside of these situations, I consider cottonmouths to be pretty dang passive and chill snakes. The biggest concern I have with them in my research areas is stepping on them. It is of dire importance to wear snakebite resistant boots in these habitats. This a great discussion.

RocK ON!

Dave
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DracoRJC
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by DracoRJC »

I've seen about a dozen copperheads and about thirty cottonmouths. I've had one of each turn out to be hellishly defensive, striking madly to the point of almost leaving the ground entirely. I've had a few of both turn out to be some of the most docile snakes Ive ever encountered, with the rest somewhere in between, attempting to run or strike after mild provocation. The two canebrakes I've seen have been pretty angelic in behavior, not a rattle or anything.

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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by jimoo742 »

I can't say about copperheads, but there were more than a few cottonmouth's in S Florida last winter that when I got down low with my tripod they came right toward me lunging. Kept me on my toes. Also didn't help me trying to get a good photo.
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regalringneck
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by regalringneck »

.. important thread for sure, just when you think you know these beasts, they throw you a curve, hence the danger of the lying down in their face getting that macro shot we all love to shoot ... i fondly remember a kamikaze completely unprovoked tiger in the middle of nowhere, trying to get airborne in its repeated strikes at me, and me nearly flopping like a fish to get out of the way, my buddy's increasingly serious admonitions to move ... MOVE ringing in my ears!
Then ive had a few scootes/atrox and a number of spastic sidewinders also overreact too.
Ive even had long term docile captive display crotes make a rare pass up the barrel of the tongs prolly just to see if i was still paying attention ... :p
So the takehome message is still; be careful & dont ever really trust them ... any of them!
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The Jake-Man
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by The Jake-Man »

While I have no experience at all with copperheads or cottonmouths, all timbers I have encountered were reluctant to strike unless provoked. When I visit dens, they always just try to crawl back in the crevice or cavity that they den in. The only time I have been struck at unexpectedly was when I stepped on a timber in an area of tall ferns, which was an area I really wasn't expecting to encounter one. I consider northern water snakes to be way more aggressive than timbers, or any other snake I've encountered for that matter. Almost every sipeodon I have ever handled, large or small, did not hesitate to bite, hold on, thrash, spray musk, and on one occasion, leave teeth behind.
Terry Vandeventer
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by Terry Vandeventer »

Snakes are not aggressive. Snakes (with the exception of giant constrictors I mentioned above) do not attack people. I know that I'm droning along and maybe beating a dead horse with this, but even experienced herpetologist get this wrong.

I don't want this post to be a flaming of Bruce Means, but over the years he's made some pretty questionable statements. I have read Bruce's paper (again this morning) and I've seen the video several times, and I don't see a single shred of evidence that any of the snakes were being aggressive. I have experience the exact same thing hundreds of times with such "notorious" species as large lanceheads, Mohave Rattlesnakes, bushmasters, Western Diamondback Rattlesnakes, and of course tons of cottonmouths and harmless colubrids. In every case, I (and Bruce) stepped in front of the snake, thus becoming the aggressor. We cut off its line of escape and the snake became defensive.

In my hundreds of trials, I never have had a cottonmouth strike at me as it continued along it's line of escape. They sometimes puffed up, reared slightly as they continued forward. Sometimes they gaped, but gaping is most times reserved for when the snake is not in motion. It's very important to remember, gaping is not a threatening action, it is a flash signal. Bruce said that, "Another (I take that to mean one lone individual) mouth-gaped as it crawled rapidly toward me." That, plus my experiences says to me that that is a rare occurance. Further, when the snake's anterior 1/4 to 1/3 is elevated off the crawling surface and the body inflated to look larger, the snake is clumsy and much slower.

A rabbit or deer crossing the road will often reverse its direction and run a greater distance back to the original cover from which it just emerged, rather than taking two more hops to safety. Snakes do the same thing. These are highly sophisticated organisms that are intimately familiar with their surroundings. The snake is very aware that there is safety just beyond this big scary predator, and he has to man-up and make a run for it. If that means going right between your legs, well, a snake's gotta do what a snake's gotta do to save his own life. Bruce admits that on at least one occasion, he lined his students up on the side of the road where the snake had just come from. They were lined up behind the snake, preventing its escape back to where it just emerged! What choice does it have but to get uber-defensive and run toward Bruce? To his credit, he states that the snake did not turn to chase him when he stepped aside, instead continuing its forward progression towards safety. That cannot be construed as aggression.

The title of the paper and his coined term, "Blocked-flight Aggressive Behavior in Snakes" is very simply a misnomer. Switch it to "Blocked-flight Defensive Behavior in Snakes" and we're on our way to a better understanding of what snakes really do and do not do.

A snake will bite you if it is frightened or injured. A snake may advance a bit if its escape is cut off. But what does a snake have to gain by going out of its way to attack a creature hundreds of times its own size? Snakes don't chase people. Again I state that snakes are not aggressive nor do they attack human beings. Defense actions against such a formidable enemy as a human are reserved a last-ditch effort to save its own life. So, my experiences have led me to the decision to never use the term "aggression" when discussing the nature of snakes.

Thanks for allowing this small rant.

Cheers,

TV
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walk-about
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by walk-about »

Terry,

You make excellent points here. But I think the 'intent' of Dr. Means paper is well made. I see no problem with the title. But I do understand your point and it is valid. Perhaps we are cutting hairs here. However, I may not totally agree with your comment:

"Again I state that snakes are not aggressive nor do they attack human beings".

Are you saying this 'never' happens? There are several well documented cases for example from Africa, regarding Dendroaspis polylepis - black mamba and its defense of its eggs. One of those involved a large female mamba that killed a 300 pound spotted hyena. I believe the account was by a well known African herpetologist named Bill Branch Field Guide to Snakes of Southern Africa, I think it was his observation, but I could be wrong(?) I will try to find this out. I understand that a hyena is not a 'human'....it is considerably more formidable. I know that the mamba's reputation is greatly exaggerated, however to say that such an attack on a human is out of the question, would be wrong. But like the intent of Dr. Means paper, I would also agree with the intent of your point. But perhaps we could agree that it is very rare, but certainly not out of the 'question'. I am sorry for rambling here.

Dave
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by davhug1 »

Since we are on the topic, what's best chacteristic its a cottonmouth as opposed to a watersnake. I've seen enough nerodia sepidon to no the difference, but never the other nerodia species. Going to north Carolina in march, l know chances are remote ill see one, but who knows.
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by rpecora »

...and its defense of its eggs.
Nough said right there.
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walk-about
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by walk-about »

Cottons swim atop the water's surface most often with their heads at a 45 degree angle...looks as if they are 'crawling' on water. I've yet to observe a Nerodia swim with its head angled upwards or floating so buoyantly on the water. When encountered on land, Nerodia are quick to jet. Cottons likely will stand their ground and give you that 'flash' of white. But they usually will not strike unless provoked. Physical characters of cottons are vertical pupils as opposed to round pupils in Nerodia. Cottons have very large heat sensing facial pits. Water snakes do not. You should research this in depth if uncertain before you go into their realm. Conant's fieldguide of North American reptiles and amphibians a must read. Be safe.
davhug1
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by davhug1 »

walk-about wrote:Cottons swim atop the water's surface most often with their heads at a 45 degree angle...looks as if they are 'crawling' on water. I've yet to observe a Nerodia swim with its head angled upwards or floating so buoyantly on the water. When encountered on land, Nerodia are quick to jet. Cottons likely will stand their ground and give you that 'flash' of white. But they usually will not strike unless provoked. Physical characters of cottons are vertical pupils as opposed to round pupils in Nerodia. Cottons have very large heat sensing facial pits. Water snakes do not. You should research this in depth if uncertain before you go into their realm. Conant's fieldguide of North American reptiles and amphibians a must read. Be safe.
Thanks man, I'm curious and inexperienced, not stupid. I'm not going looking for them, I just saying if I spot one on the Mr bike trails, or hiking trails. I'm not sure therye habitat is in wake county where I'm staying. Thanks for the tips, some of the photos online between the two are similar, somewhat.
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by chris_mcmartin »

davhug1 wrote:Since we are on the topic, what's best chacteristic its a cottonmouth as opposed to a watersnake. I've seen enough nerodia sepidon to no the difference, but never the other nerodia species. Going to north Carolina in march, l know chances are remote ill see one, but who knows.
Cottons are sometimes called "chunkheads" due in part to their angular head shape. That's a pretty good indicator too...cottonmouths look much more "stern/serious" than watersnakes, for lack of a better analogy.

That, and as already mentioned, a watersnake will usually swim with most of its body submerged, if ever so slightly, below the water's surface (though this can be difficult to determine dependent upon the clarity of the water and the viewing angle). A cottonmouth GENERALLY will look like somebody tossed a circus clown's balloon into the water before he finished twisting it into a puppy dog.
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walk-about
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Re: Agressive cottonmouths and copperheads

Post by walk-about »

repcora,

Defending one's eggs would not, on its face at least be quite the same as defending (snake) itself. Which was implied in an earlier comment. And I would agree with that. If then we are to inject such stipulations, then much of this thread would be moot.

My point is that in nature, nothing is predictable. Nothing. If that were the case, as scientists, we would not be adding significant & frequent field observations of what we see in the field to our data bases. There would be no point, because animals are 'predictable'. Right? So there you go. I agree with the intent of Terry's posts. And he is one of the most respectful and knowledgeable members of this forum who I admire very much. I would subtlety take issue with his one statement.

I can imagine the last thoughts of someone bitten by a mamba and suffering from neurotoxic and cadiotoxic symptoms before they succumbed to his/her death would be, 'Gee, I wonder if that mamba was defending her eggs?'. Ooops.

Dave
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