TN Herpers

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FunkyRes
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TN Herpers

Post by FunkyRes »

Girl I know from Tennessee was telling me about very fast snakes she use to find as a kid that they all called Blue Racers in TN where she grew up (and lives)
She said they were very beautiful and did appear to be blue.

My thoughts were probably either a subspecies of Coluber constrictor or Masticophis flagellum

I know Coluber constrictor foxii has the common name Blue Racer, but I don't see any records of it in TN in naherp database. Is it in TN?

Any idea which snake she may have been talking about? I gather not that far from Memphis.

Thanks
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Nick Scobel
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by Nick Scobel »

Coluber constrictor foxii is a regional variant isolated to the Great Lakes region in northern Ohio and Indiana, Michigan, Ontario and part of Wisconsin. Racers from the heartland tend to show a lot of variation, and some may have a slight blue appearance along their sides. It only reinforces the idea that most of the racer "subspecies" are probably invalid and just simply regional variations of one species. I'm unsure if anyone has looked into whether or not the currently recognized subspecies are genetically distinct enough for them to carry subspecies status. Anyone else have any idea?
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walk-about
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by walk-about »

FunkyRes & Nick,

That would be close to the range of the black-masked racer in north Mississippi. I would defer to the expert on this forum from that region Terry V.
Likley what this woman told you about is the southern black racer - also called 'blue racers' in our region of the country....west TN & west KY.

RocK ON!

Dave
Coluber Constrictor
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by Coluber Constrictor »

C. c. latrunculus, the Black-masked Racer. Sometimes called "blue racer" or "blue runner".
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VanAR
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by VanAR »

I've heard black/black-masked racers called blue racers by the uninformed throughout their range in the south. In the public's defense, I often think they look a bit blue myself.
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VanAR
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by VanAR »

Is this a new name because I have never heard of any Racer being called that before.
Nah, it's just some local vernacular, just like you sometimes hear coontail or velvet tail rattler for atrox and horridus, or cowsucker/pilot snake for ratsnake, spreading/puff adder for hognose, sand rattler for pigmies and massassaugas, oak snake for grey rats/coachwhips/pine snakes (depending on where you are), mountain boomer for collared lizard, etc.
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FunkyRes
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by FunkyRes »

Thanks - if I ever get a chance to go out her way and visit her, I guess I'll find out for sure what they are :)
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The Jake-Man
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by The Jake-Man »

I knew Coluber constrictor constrictor as "blue racers" until a few years ago. I even have an old poster in my room of the snakes of PA that calls them blue racers. It's just what people in my area call them.
rtdunham
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by rtdunham »

IndigoBlue wrote:Is this a new name because I have never heard of any Racer being called that before. ...

Sorry, not sure i understand your post. Is it "blue racer" or "black-masked racer" you've never heard of before? Thanks, just trying to follow the thread. The pronoun "this" had no clear precedent and wasn't clear enuff for this old brain...
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Natalie McNear
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by Natalie McNear »

Any black snake can appear dark blue on a sunny day with the blue sky reflecting on it, especially if the person only catches a quick glimpse of it... On a similar note, sometimes black racers actually are blue. :D

Image
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walk-about
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by walk-about »

Beautiful specimen and photo Natalie!
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Phil Peak
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by Phil Peak »

I've heard locals refer to blue racers in a number of places in the southeast, but especially in Kentucky. Its possible that in some instances they saw a racer that was preparing to shed and looked blue. No real surprise there, even snake guys often refer to a snake that is in ecdysis as "blue". I've seen many southern racers in this condition that appeared brown, gray and at times blue.

On the other hand, I've heard persons from the non-herp public describe the coloration of snakes in some pretty bizarre terms. I have responded to snake calls when the subject in question was described as green and purple with red diamonds and yellow eyes only to find a rat snake. Go figure!

Phil
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Brian Folt
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by Brian Folt »

RE: Nick

See Frank Burbrink et al. 2008 (http://www.cnah.org/pdf_files/954.pdf) for a recent hypothesis about the evolutionary history of Coluber constrictor (sensu lato). Their phylogeny (generated from the mitochrondrial DNA cytochrome b gene) found support for six independently-evolving lineages of racer (=6 species), which are not concordant with classic subspecific designations based on morphology.
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FunkyRes
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by FunkyRes »

Phil Peak wrote:I've heard locals refer to blue racers in a number of places in the southeast, but especially in Kentucky. Its possible that in some instances they saw a racer that was preparing to shed and looked blue. No real surprise there, even snake guys often refer to a snake that is in ecdysis as "blue". I've seen many southern racers in this condition that appeared brown, gray and at times blue.

On the other hand, I've heard persons from the non-herp public describe the coloration of snakes in some pretty bizarre terms. I have responded to snake calls when the subject in question was described as green and purple with red diamonds and yellow eyes only to find a rat snake. Go figure!

Phil
When I was a teen, in Half Moon Bay, CA there was a large field (now housing) that was mostly grass hillside but had a tree covered swampy area.
The locals told me there were red racers and rarely striped racers.

I found a bunch of coast range garters, those were the red racers (confirmed) and a single Santa Cruz Garter (herped there for 3 years) - that they had never seen before.
I am guessing the Striped Racer may have been SF Garter but I never saw one. Gopher snakes were also present.

The swamp area had a lot of California Newts and California Red-legged Frogs. Interestingly never saw or heard a chorus frog.
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Nick Scobel
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by Nick Scobel »

Brian Folt wrote:RE: Nick

See Frank Burbrink et al. 2008 (http://www.cnah.org/pdf_files/954.pdf) for a recent hypothesis about the evolutionary history of Coluber constrictor (sensu lato). Their phylogeny (generated from the mitochrondrial DNA cytochrome b gene) found support for six independently-evolving lineages of racer (=6 species), which are not concordant with classic subspecific designations based on morphology.
Thanks Brian!
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Mark Brown
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by Mark Brown »

When I was growing up in Arkansas and just getting into herps, I heard "blue racer" used most of the time when someone was describing Black Racers. I was kinda tickled when I finally got up to northern Ohio and got to see the real deal. I wasn't let down at all....Blue Racers, at least the ones from NW Ohio, are gorgeous animals.
millmoss
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by millmoss »

I was JUST about to create a post asking this very question.

Growing up in TN, I always heard the term blue racer. I saw exactly one racer when I was a kid, and it did look bluish. But I was probably 12 and my memory isn't all that reliable.

I was actually going to post the question because I recently saw a classified ad for a Southern Blue Racer, and it puzzled me.
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Mike VanValen
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by Mike VanValen »

Black Racers catch the sky reflection and appear blueish. Think about the name "Indigo" snake as well.
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umop apisdn
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Re: TN Herpers

Post by umop apisdn »

Sorry to bring up an old post, but...

http://www.reddit.com/r/species/comment ... _found_in/

Looks like a blackmask to me.
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