Is this normal hunting behavior?

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Owen
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Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by Owen »

I only ask because I can't imagine garter snakes being that smart, but after 15 minutes of watching one probing around the shallows for young bullfrogs, another joined it and they actually seemed to team up together to work the area. Of course, with my luck, no frog captures, but while one had its head poking around for frogs, the other was right there chasing any abrupt movement. They even travelled together while searching. I'm guessing maybe its just a higher success rate as a hunting strategy to follow another as opposed to actually working together, but it was fun to watch nevertheless.

The hunters. 32-36" long. I saw one about 40-42" in the reeds.

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Another one... 8 upper labials. Can't they stay consistent? ;)

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Also saw a couple 9 inchers, but they hit the grass to fast that you only see them for an instant.
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Ridge Walker
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by Ridge Walker »

Looks like courtship. Really great photos...not only are you capturing some natural behavior, but the photos are nice and sharp to boot.

RW
r.edwards
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by r.edwards »

first off awesome pics esp this one
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I observed three with similar behavior 2 days ago in my pond, they were Thamnophis proximus..

thanks for posting!

r.edwards
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Owen
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by Owen »

Ridge Walker wrote:Looks like courtship. Really great photos...not only are you capturing some natural behavior, but the photos are nice and sharp to boot.

RW
Thanks for the compliments. I'm pretty sure courtship is long over as evidenced by the 9" young'n that I also saw. No, I watched the 2 together for 5 minutes and they were never more than 3 feet from each other that entire time and they were both hunting.
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Owen
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by Owen »

r.edwards wrote:
I observed three with similar behavior 2 days ago in my pond, they were Thamnophis proximus..

thanks for posting!

r.edwards
Interesting. By the way, these are T. s. infernalis. (forgot to mention)
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JakeScott
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by JakeScott »

Great pack-hunting behavior! These two are the decoys, there is one that the frog...didn't even see!

-Jake
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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by chris_mcmartin »

Owen wrote:I'm pretty sure courtship is long over
Never underestimate the drive of a horny male. Of any species.
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Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

I don't know about that hunting behavior, but those are some damn fine photos!!!!
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Dan Krull
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by Dan Krull »

Ok. As someone who has bred garters by the hundreds in captivity and made a fair number of wild observations....


My opinion is this:

The second snake observed the first snake hunting and moved in to steal the food item from him/her. There was no food item, but the look and movements the other snake made drove the first to the conclusion that there was food to be had.

Garters are very visually oriented and pick up on cues from movement and shapes very readily. In captivity, the sight of another snake attacking a food source, swallowing or even hunting elicits the exact behaviour you describe very commonly. I have always suspected it to be innate behaviour that is intensified through experience, but that is mostly conjecture.

I will go a step further and suggest that had you seen one catch something, the snake with the food item would have straightened its body, lifted its head, and crawled away quickly to keep the other from stealing the food.


I must add that garter males are not above a little out of season bump and tickle, but that is not what I see in these pics.

Dan
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Owen
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by Owen »

Thanks Dan... makes sense that hunting behavior by one could trigger the same in another individual nearby. I was waiting for a frog capture to see if they fought over it, but that never happened. It was just funny to watch them moving together.

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David Jahn
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by David Jahn »

Those are all great photos. Those look like more inland T. s. infernalis, which are a tough find. It's great to see that they're thriving in a place overrun with Bullfrogs (which have most likely displaced the native RLFs).
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tspuckler
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by tspuckler »

I've been breeding Santa Cruz Garters for a couple of years. Males will court females throughout the year - even after females have given birth. I've also bred Eastern Garters for several years - same thing - males have been seen actively courting females every month of the year that they aren't in winter cooling.

Now it would have been interesting if the snakes were captured and it was determined what genders they were. At any rate, your photos and observations are fantastic. For some darn reason I've been unable to find a CA Red-sided Garter in the wild. Nice stuff!

Tim

A couple of Cruz's born here earlier this month:
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liucommajames
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by liucommajames »

awesome pics owen. I gotta get back out there with you next time i'm in town. maybe some CA sally hunting when the fall rains hit? oh and congrats on the photo in herpnation. cool to see bay area stuff in a publication.
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Brian Hubbs
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Owen, don't tell Mitch Mulks about this...he just saw his first infernalis a few weeks ago...after looking for 10 years...LOL
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David Jahn
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by David Jahn »

Brian Hubbs wrote:Owen, don't tell Mitch Mulks about this...he just saw his first infernalis a few weeks ago...after looking for 10 years...LOL
That's probably because infernalis don't typically turn up under "cap" rocks. :lol:
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Owen
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by Owen »

Brian Hubbs wrote:Owen, don't tell Mitch Mulks about this...he just saw his first infernalis a few weeks ago...after looking for 10 years...LOL
Well, I've seen more this year than the prior 50. At least 10-12 individual snakes, but no more than 5 at any time hiking. I used to spend all my time across the valley in the other foothills where you only find Santa Cruz and Coast garters. This place is Red-sided at the lower elevations and Diablo and Coast up higher.

2 today:

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Oh yeah, and these damn things:

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Brian Eagar
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by Brian Eagar »

Nice observation and pics.
I echo the comments of Don regarding garters getting into a feeding frenzy.
I often house garters together and once the first one realizes and takes food the others aren't far behind and fighting over it.
I've not seen any other snakes know how to protect their catch like garters. Head lifted high with prey item kept away
from the others. Sometimes accompanied by tail whiping.
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Dan Krull
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by Dan Krull »

Dan. Me Dan. :)

Dan
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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by chris_mcmartin »

Herp Ninja wrote:Dan. Me Dan. :)

Dan
You. You not answer emails. Or get your snake rocks out of my garage. Storage fee has tripled again.
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Owen
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by Owen »

Herp Ninja wrote:Dan. Me Dan. :)

Dan
You look more like Leonardo ;)
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FunkyRes
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by FunkyRes »

Herp Ninja wrote: Garters are very visually oriented and pick up on cues from movement and shapes very readily. In captivity, the sight of another snake attacking a food source, swallowing or even hunting elicits the exact behaviour you describe very commonly. I have always suspected it to be innate behaviour that is intensified through experience, but that is mostly conjecture.
That's interesting. Last year I saw a couple mountain garters that I thought were copulating in a small ditch that feeds a creek in my neighborhood. It was a hot day in June, I believe. I went and got my camera and by the time I got back to the ditch they were gone.

That ditch is full of Psuedacris sierra and usually has Sceloporus occidentalis hanging out as well (the creek it feeds is bullfrog infested). I wonder if what I saw was actually what you just described rather than courtship.
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Casey Lazik
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by Casey Lazik »

Owen,

Truly excellent shots.

Ditto what Dan and Brian said. I've observed the same with Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis and Thamnophis cyrtopsis ocellatus, both in nature and in captivity. Thanks for sharing. More please!

Regards,

Casey
Brian Eagar
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by Brian Eagar »

Sorry Herp Ninja Dan.
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FunkyRes
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Re: Is this normal hunting behavior?

Post by FunkyRes »

Zombie thread - I know, but that's OK - I like Turtles

I have a pair of young T. e. elegans - last years neonates.
I feed them mostly P sierra and local caught small minnows and mosquito fish.

I just put a jar of P sierra in with them, but this time, watched them feed carefully.
Definitely extremely vision based, they smelled the frogs and headed towards the jar, but in many cases the frogs would freeze and the snakes would freeze, literally within a centimeter of the frog, and then move on to a different frog that moved.

And the two snakes did seem to follow each other around. In fact, I had to separate them at one point as they had the same frog. I always monitor the feeding in case that happens, first time it has (with frogs - happened with fish once before but one let go before I had to intervene), but I've not watched intently to try and observe the feeding behavior like I did this time.

It was also neat to watch the behavior of the frogs. Within moments of being grabbed, they would go limp. That's the venom at work, I take it?
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