About Cats
Moderator: Scott Waters
About Cats
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/scien ... .html?_r=0
Of course there's no mention of all the herp loss to ferals and pets but it seems like a sane rational article. No easy answers here of course but correction starts with awareness.
I'm not much of a cat person so I might rant about cats, but fact is they are extremely important as pets to so many people, and that has tremendous value. We can only beg responsible pet ownership, and if ferals need to be euthanized so be it.
Of course there's no mention of all the herp loss to ferals and pets but it seems like a sane rational article. No easy answers here of course but correction starts with awareness.
I'm not much of a cat person so I might rant about cats, but fact is they are extremely important as pets to so many people, and that has tremendous value. We can only beg responsible pet ownership, and if ferals need to be euthanized so be it.
Re: About Cats
What kind of sane and rational article would care about herps?monklet wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/scien ... .html?_r=0
Of course there's no mention of all the herp loss to ferals and pets but it seems like a sane rational article.
Did you check out the link to the kittycam page? A graph there lists reptiles and amphibians as the most common victim of murder cats in that particular study.
http://www.kittycams.uga.edu/research.html
- walk-about
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Re: About Cats
Cats...I have no problem with killing them all. And I mean 'all'. They are little furry walking frog/lizard/snake-killing machines with bullseyes on their midsections and I have put many in my cross-hairs over the years. Sorry cat lovers.
RocK ON!
RocK ON!
Re: About Cats
Oh, how could you!walk-about wrote:Cats...I have no problem with killing them all. And I mean 'all'. ... Sorry cat lovers.
Guess I should also mention that the cat that came with this place where I live has delivered a Legless Lizard, my only wild (but mangled and dead) Tantilla, a few lizards, a couple shrews, and of course sundry more mundane offerings.
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Re: About Cats
You might want to tone down the "kill all the cats" stuff a bit. You never know, some non herper/cat lover might stumble onto this thread and think we are all a bunch of sadists or something. Words have consequenses.
Re: About Cats
Thanks, great contribution to this thread ...far more interesting than the resource I posted.JohnU wrote:http://www.kittycams.uga.edu/research.html
Unfortunately this impressive study will likely not shift any sentiments
Re: About Cats
I have a cat. She stays indoors with cat trees and perches and is used to all the animals in our house.
There are feral cats because people are lazy and cheap. They dont want to spend the money to fix them and they dont want to deal with what it takes to keep them appropriately indoors.
Cats preying on fauna is a serious problem but anthropomorphically demonizing an animal out of some "loyalty to herps" reminds me of the weird stuff people do to feeder rodents, who are too stupid or clumsy to get their ball python on thawed or ethically dispatched pk animals. And they brag about it like being able to f* up a rat makes them some kind of big man jaded pro
A cat outside wandering could belong to a child who loves it dearly, or it could be a senior citizens only relationship.
Its a quandry - be observant.
There are feral cats because people are lazy and cheap. They dont want to spend the money to fix them and they dont want to deal with what it takes to keep them appropriately indoors.
Cats preying on fauna is a serious problem but anthropomorphically demonizing an animal out of some "loyalty to herps" reminds me of the weird stuff people do to feeder rodents, who are too stupid or clumsy to get their ball python on thawed or ethically dispatched pk animals. And they brag about it like being able to f* up a rat makes them some kind of big man jaded pro
A cat outside wandering could belong to a child who loves it dearly, or it could be a senior citizens only relationship.
Its a quandry - be observant.
Re: About Cats
name me any other animal that it is considered ok to allow them to free range in a typical suburban/urban neighborhood with no restrictions? Dogs maybe in some rural localities but most places now have leash laws or ordinances requiring fencing that dogs can't get out of. It is beyond my ability to reason this out why cats are the one animal that for some reason do not require any kind of restraint legally. I have no issue with cats exactly but can't understand why if someone needs to own one that badly they can't be kept indoors or penned up when put outside. I also see absolutely no sense in going to all the trouble of capturing feral cats to simply spay/neuter them to be released back in wild to continue to damage native wildlife we wouldn't do this with any other invasive species.
Re: About Cats
Time and place. If I see a cat crossing a canyon road as I am road cruising or one stalking a rodent in a campground I am staying at I feel a strong desire to shoot it (not that I ever have, I would need a gun to do that), just as I get a strong desire to clear the ponds I frequent of all present Bull Frogs. I do not discriminate my desire to remove invasives based on phylogenetic lineage.Kelly Mc wrote:I have a cat. She stays indoors with cat trees and perches and is used to all the animals in our house.
There are feral cats because people are lazy and cheap. They dont want to spend the money to fix them and they dont want to deal with what it takes to keep them appropriately indoors.
Cats preying on fauna is a serious problem but anthropomorphically demonizing an animal out of some "loyalty to herps" reminds me of the weird stuff people do to feeder rodents, who are too stupid or clumsy to get their ball python on thawed or ethically dispatched pk animals. And they brag about it like being able to f* up a rat makes them some kind of big man jaded pro
A cat outside wandering could belong to a child who loves it dearly, or it could be a senior citizens only relationship.
I believe this is the most underrated and overlooked qualities of a wise mind. Observation is key.Its a quandry - be observant.
-Thomas
- chris_mcmartin
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Re: About Cats
I maintain my personal breeding collection of pigeons free-range in New York City.squinn wrote:name me any other animal that it is considered ok to allow them to free range in a typical suburban/urban neighborhood with no restrictions?
But seriously, I can't think of a species we grant as much freedom as the cat.
Re: About Cats
"Cats...I have no problem with killing them all. And I mean 'all'. Sorry cat lovers."
Kind of like: "The only good snake, is a dead snake."
Kind of like: "The only good snake, is a dead snake."
Re: About Cats
Kind of..., if you completely discount the fact that one is a (semi)domesticated animal descended from an african species that has been spread all over the world by humans; and the other is a diverse group of animals that is most frequently encountered within their native range.TeeJay wrote:"Cats...I have no problem with killing them all. And I mean 'all'. Sorry cat lovers."
Kind of like: "The only good snake, is a dead snake."
-Thomas
Re: About Cats
I dont know what people are trying to accomplish by neutering and releasing cats. I dont think they have an iota of awareness of invasive harm to fauna and in "loving the cats" they are only using the tip of a pinky finger of token responsibility and sentencing the cats to an existance of constant abcesses from fighting, bacterial and viral disease and a short life and slow death.
Its a tough problem that needs to be approached with intelligence and sober resolve. But a stance of contempt or exaggerated shoot em all glee doesnt reflect well on anyone concerned with the well being of the living world.
Its a tough problem that needs to be approached with intelligence and sober resolve. But a stance of contempt or exaggerated shoot em all glee doesnt reflect well on anyone concerned with the well being of the living world.
- ZantiMissKnit
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Re: About Cats
Well said. I may do some research to see if I can find out if T/N/R programs have really made THAT much of a difference in the past 20 years (I say 20 years because in 1993 I was working for an animal shelter that routinely euthanized all ferals that came in, and to my knowledge there weren't very many T/N/R programs out there).Kelly Mc wrote:I dont know what people are trying to accomplish by neutering and releasing cats. I dont think they have an iota of awareness of invasive harm to fauna and in "loving the cats" they are only using the tip of a pinky finger of token responsibility and sentencing the cats to an existance of constant abcesses from fighting, bacterial and viral disease and a short life and slow death.
Its a tough problem that needs to be approached with intelligence and sober resolve. But a stance of contempt or exaggerated shoot em all glee doesnt reflect well on anyone concerned with the well being of the living world.
I'm a cat lover, like a SERIOUS cat lover. I've had them all my life, but have not had any that go outdoors since around 1979. I have three now, and they don't even attempt to go outdoors. They know how good they have it inside.
I've known a few people over the years who have been "working" with feral colonies and T/N/R programs. One local rescue will put cats down that test positive for feline leukemia, will try to adopt out "friendlies" that are proven healthy, and the rest get spayed/neutered and released, with volunteers going by to feed the colonies of T/N/R cats.
- Kent VanSooy
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Re: About Cats
Me too, almost exactly! They can be maintained easily in a 100% responsible manner. Obviously, not everyone does.I'm a cat lover, like a SERIOUS cat lover. I've had them all my life, but have not had any that go outdoors since around 1979. I have three now, and they don't even attempt to go outdoors. They know how good they have it inside.
Re: About Cats
My cat is like, the coolest company ever!
Re: About Cats
My wife's birthday present to me a couple of years ago:
He's sweet, playful and demonic in turns, and I love him dearly. He stays in the house all the time, no ifs, ands or buts, for both his protection and the protection of my neighborhood's wild fauna. I love cats in general, just as I do other animals. But I have and will continue to remove cats I find roaming outside, be they back in some remote wooded canyon or in my backyard; if I know who they belong to then I take them home the first time or two, but thereafter they go where I bring all the rest - to a shelter where I can rely on them being humanely euthanized if no one claims them in short order.
When my grandparents were kids they lived on farms where their dogs lived outside and ran free. They still had a dog at their somewhat more urban home by the time that I came along, and that dog lived its entire life outside, chained to a stake beside its doghouse. When I was a young boy my own family had a dog, too, that we chained to a stake outside during the day and then brought into the house for the night. As an adult I have a dog, too (I had two until having to put down a much beloved old and ailing dog a short while back); it lives in the house, and only spends what time it wants to outside in our fenced backyard plus goes on regular walks around the neighborhood on leash, and less regular trips to yonder dog park to run around off-leash.
The point? Pet care attitudes steadily improve with the times. If cat owners are in general still behind where dog owners now are, and I agree that they are, don't worry, they'll get there. They just need more education. Sadly, I reckon part of that education for some of them will have to come in the form of losing their pets to concerned citizens who trap cats and bring them to kill shelters to protect native wildlife. So be it.
Gerry
He's sweet, playful and demonic in turns, and I love him dearly. He stays in the house all the time, no ifs, ands or buts, for both his protection and the protection of my neighborhood's wild fauna. I love cats in general, just as I do other animals. But I have and will continue to remove cats I find roaming outside, be they back in some remote wooded canyon or in my backyard; if I know who they belong to then I take them home the first time or two, but thereafter they go where I bring all the rest - to a shelter where I can rely on them being humanely euthanized if no one claims them in short order.
When my grandparents were kids they lived on farms where their dogs lived outside and ran free. They still had a dog at their somewhat more urban home by the time that I came along, and that dog lived its entire life outside, chained to a stake beside its doghouse. When I was a young boy my own family had a dog, too, that we chained to a stake outside during the day and then brought into the house for the night. As an adult I have a dog, too (I had two until having to put down a much beloved old and ailing dog a short while back); it lives in the house, and only spends what time it wants to outside in our fenced backyard plus goes on regular walks around the neighborhood on leash, and less regular trips to yonder dog park to run around off-leash.
The point? Pet care attitudes steadily improve with the times. If cat owners are in general still behind where dog owners now are, and I agree that they are, don't worry, they'll get there. They just need more education. Sadly, I reckon part of that education for some of them will have to come in the form of losing their pets to concerned citizens who trap cats and bring them to kill shelters to protect native wildlife. So be it.
Gerry
Re: About Cats
This is well worth the read whether you are pro-cat hunting or not. I find it to be satire in the purest most enjoyable form no matter where you sit on this issue. http://www.buckstix.com/CoehornMortarHunt.htm
- Chris Smith
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Re: About Cats
I have not read the full "real" article yet but I was told by one of the co-authors that it does mention herps. Unfortunately good herp vs cat datasets are sparse.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4 ... s2380.html
-Chris
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4 ... s2380.html
-Chris
- Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Re: About Cats
I like your posts. They're very manly. What's a turkey polt?beast wrote:Cats kill quail and turkey polts, rabbits, grouse too, bad for hunting. Do what you want to on your land, but if they come onto mine, its hello and goodbye kitty!
Hug on this nature boys!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU8C7el8bhA
- Dalton Lund
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Re: About Cats
A poult is the term for a juvenile bird, usually poultry (hence the name).Hans Breuer (twoton) wrote:
I like your posts. They're very manly. What's a turkey polt?
I'm all for classifying the feral cat as a nuisance animal. It's been proven they destroy ecosystems, I don't see why this hasn't been regulated yet.
Don't get me wrong, I like cats and think they're an awesome pet. They not only make a good pet, but also catch rodents in your house so they're also practical, if you will. To my knowledge, cats are the only other known animal (other than humans) that hunts for sport. They don't always eat what they kill, sometimes they just do it for fun. Couple this with the abundance of potential prey items in any given ecosystem and you not only have a highly dangerous invasive species on your hands, but it happens to be cute and fuzzy, which apparently blinds people's logic.
EDIT: Added a few more sentences. Edited a second time to add this sentence.
- Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Re: About Cats
Thanks very much!A poult is the term for a juvenile bird, usually poultry (hence the name).
- chris_mcmartin
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Re: About Cats
A difference of opinion, from a different forum:
The last time cats were demonized this badly, a third of the world's population died of the black plague.
- ZantiMissKnit
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Re: About Cats
I think that rodent-borne illnesses make a good argument for both cats AND snakes, however, I don't think the article really "demonized" cats so much as gave a realistic point of view.chris_mcmartin wrote:A difference of opinion, from a different forum:
The last time cats were demonized this badly, a third of the world's population died of the black plague.
One thing I failed to mention in my earlier post about ferals is that some that are somewhat tame get adopted out as barn cats which is, IMO, a very practical use for them. There just aren't enough farms around here for all of the ferals. Of course, just letting a couple of milk snakes or black racers live on the property would help control the rodent population just as well, but so many people have grown up with a fear of snakes that it's a tough argument to make.
Re: About Cats
In order for hobby collectors who take wild pets to match the impact of cats on birds and mammals alone, given the numbers from this article, it would require each and every US citizen to be a hobby collector collecting at least one new pets from the wild each and every week. That doesn't even count the impact cats have on reptiles and amphibians, which cats are effecting at significantly greater levels than they are birds and mammals.
Even for animals that cats cannot kill cats still directly compete for these prey items, subduing the entire food chain. Dogs also have a far larger impact on the local fauna than is generally appreciated.
This is why, even though I'm not that keen on keeping pets myself, I find the legal preoccupation with the regulation of hobbyist to be so woefully out of proportion to reality. Even neglecting cats this remains true. This by no means says hobbyist shouldn't be subjected to significant regulations and limits with significant penalties, just that on balance such regulations tend to go to extremes on the least significant area of effect while the most significant are either almost entirely ignored or outright encouraged.
Sorry to co-opt this thread to make this point, but the numbers are so stark and jaw dropping I couldn't help it. The realities of the numbers, and the 'relative' insignificance of hobbyist, are far more stark than indicated by these single cause (cat) numbers above. The effect of cats alone are larger than the cat numbers actually used for comparison.
Even for animals that cats cannot kill cats still directly compete for these prey items, subduing the entire food chain. Dogs also have a far larger impact on the local fauna than is generally appreciated.
This is why, even though I'm not that keen on keeping pets myself, I find the legal preoccupation with the regulation of hobbyist to be so woefully out of proportion to reality. Even neglecting cats this remains true. This by no means says hobbyist shouldn't be subjected to significant regulations and limits with significant penalties, just that on balance such regulations tend to go to extremes on the least significant area of effect while the most significant are either almost entirely ignored or outright encouraged.
Sorry to co-opt this thread to make this point, but the numbers are so stark and jaw dropping I couldn't help it. The realities of the numbers, and the 'relative' insignificance of hobbyist, are far more stark than indicated by these single cause (cat) numbers above. The effect of cats alone are larger than the cat numbers actually used for comparison.
- chris_mcmartin
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Re: About Cats
I think many in the herping community commit the logical fallacy of "confirmation bias" when it comes to articles like this, while those in the general public will categorically reject the study, because it conflicts with their mental image of cats being affectionate, cuddly pets. In fact, that's one of the worst arguments/trains of thought I've heard from my cat-lovin' friends, and I'm sure others have too: "you don't own a cat, a cat owns you," "cats need their independence," and so on.
That being said, when making the case about herp hobbyist collection impact,
That being said, when making the case about herp hobbyist collection impact,
The comparison falls apart because herp hobbyists (and others, like turtle sellers for the food market and biological supply houses for frogs) GENERALLY target certain species, whereas cats show little to no preference, so the pressure from collectors is comparatively unevenly distributed.mywan wrote:In order for hobby collectors who take wild pets to match the impact of cats on birds and mammals alone, given the numbers from this article, it would require each and every US citizen to be a hobby collector collecting at least one new pets from the wild each and every week. That doesn't even count the impact cats have on reptiles and amphibians, which cats are effecting at significantly greater levels than they are birds and mammals.
To further hijack the discussion, it's the same line of irrational thought which drives the gun-control debate. People thinking with their emotions tend to reject valid statistics which conflict with what "their heart tells them" (see first paragraph). But sometimes irrationality isn't a bad thing (except when it comes to public policy).Sorry to co-opt this thread to make this point, but the numbers are so stark and jaw dropping I couldn't help it.
- regalringneck
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Re: About killers
so mebbe this sums it up; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GDIkb5CDUY
Re: About Cats
That's a very valid point. That is why I would never suggest hobbyist should ever be free of regulations, and would go further to say we should even hold ourselves to a higher standard than legal technicalities. Your point about cats not targeting specific species can be extended by noting that wild animals that depend on prey for survival is self limited in the damage they can do. They over hunt and they start starving to death, giving their prey a chance to recover by way of the Lotka–Volterra equation. People are not limited in the same way, and neither are cats feed by people.chris_mcmartin wrote:The comparison falls apart because herp hobbyists (and others, like turtle sellers for the food market and biological supply houses for frogs) GENERALLY target certain species, whereas cats show little to no preference, so the pressure from collectors is comparatively unevenly distributed.
It seems to me that perhaps when you assigned my opinion to a "confirmation bias" you fail to recognize from where my perspective comes from. I am in fact pro-regulation. I don't generally take pets from the wild, with the exception of some fish. Though I would consider it under some conditions. My interest is in maintaining personal property that is conducive to maximizing wildlife, free from interference. Including pools for wild frogs, brush pile for rabbits and such, stone terraces for lizards and such, and whatever wild animals wants to hunt through it. My "bias" is on conservation, not collecting, but does include an immense enjoyment of field herping for pictures and just seeing what surprises I can find.
My intent when expressing my exasperation with a single minded obsession with anti-hobby centric laws is not to suggest that regulations are entirely unwarranted. Rather, I would hope that the regulatory agencies would take a more balanced approach to regulating around the highest impact activities. So long as it is pretended that it's all just the hobbyist fault then any actual solutions are doomed. Even cats alone are not even that significant in the total scale of the problem. If outlawing even taking a picture of some wild critter solved the problem then I would certainly not complain. But all you have to do is look at the relative scale of numbers to see the "confirmation bias" is used to to make scape goats of a miniscule subset of the population while the destruction dwarfs anything actually being addressed.
So bottom line message I want heard is: Address the ecological problems in proportion to potential returns. If that includes massive regulations of hobbyist, so be it, but that's not what the numbers say. Certain species most certainly should be on the no touch list, no matter what, but get a grip on the magnitude of the problem and the relative size of the shear numbers among all the problem activities. Then work with the biggest paybacks first.
This opinion in no way represents an excuse for being irresponsible with the wildlife you come in contact with.
- chris_mcmartin
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Re: About Cats
I apologize for not clarifying: that comment was a general observation/prediction, not directed at you specifically. That's why I made the claim before addressing your reply.mywan wrote:It seems to me that perhaps when you assigned my opinion to a "confirmation bias" you fail to recognize from where my perspective comes from.
- Kent VanSooy
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Re: About Cats
And don't forget about one of a cat's most useful traits, holding down lightweight herping books.
Re: About Cats
It has probably mistaken the book it's sitting on for a litter box.
Re: About Cats
It's cool. Though I did think it was directed at me I'm open to criticism with substance and your point did have substance.chris_mcmartin wrote:I apologize for not clarifying: that comment was a general observation/prediction, not directed at you specifically. That's why I made the claim before addressing your reply.mywan wrote:It seems to me that perhaps when you assigned my opinion to a "confirmation bias" you fail to recognize from where my perspective comes from.