Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

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PNWHerper
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Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

Post by PNWHerper »

Been busy taking advantage of every free moment available to me to seek out the wet skinned herps that are busily breeding around here in western WA. I thought it would be fun to do a post on the life I have found around one particular pond I have been working with. I love the Pacific Northwest landscapes, and the wonderful herps we get to see here.

Here are some highlights...

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This is the location.

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Male red-legged frog.

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These are 2 adult NW salamanders. One is a neotenic adult or paedomorph. The other is a large, male transformed adult.

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Close-up of another paedomorph. Check out those gills!

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Here is a paedomorph in situ.

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I love this tail curling behavior.

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The males have impressively large tails. Here is a great example of such a tail. :shock:

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The end... or what it looks like for many an invertebrate, anyway! :lol:

Thanks to Joshua for the great advice. It helped me a ton! I hope I can return the favor some how.
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JAMAUGHN
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Re: Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

Post by JAMAUGHN »

Great stuff, Fil. It's always nice to see the Northwest's salamanders!

JimM
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Re: Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

Post by PNWHerper »

Here is an adult male exploring the bottom of the pond.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/embed/M9DSrXy9vJI[/youtube]
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AJherps
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Re: Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

Post by AJherps »

Cool finds! That’s all I can seem to find up here too lately. Lot’s of Northwesterns and Red-Legs

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salamanderhunter
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Re: Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

Post by salamanderhunter »

awesome. So, is paedomorphic the same as neotenic? If so, do the NW sallies only use fishless ponds?
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PNWHerper
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Re: Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

Post by PNWHerper »

Joe,

I have seen neotenic (neotene) and paedomorph interchangeably in the literature. Maybe someone can enlighten us on the differences??

Because of their toxic skin, NW salamander paedomorphs are found in ponds/lakes with or without fish. Though, they do suffer some mortality, and their is some evidence that those that dwell with predatory fish are much more nocturnal, and generally do not venture far from cover.

The pond has never shown much obvious sign of fish activity. Though, I may have just missed the evidence.

Though overall in decent shape, I was sadden to see a number of cups and cans in the pond. I will take a trip out there in the near future and do some clean up help the place out. Its a beautiful spot, otherwise.
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TravisK
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Re: Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

Post by TravisK »

You got some nice shots in Fil.
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PNWHerper
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Re: Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

Post by PNWHerper »

AJ,

Nice photos! Makes sense you are finding those now, as both species are breeding.

Travis,

Thanks! Maybe you can get a few pics up soon too?
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TravisK
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Re: Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

Post by TravisK »

PNWHerper wrote:AJ,

Nice photos! Makes sense you are finding those now, as both species are breeding.

Travis,

Thanks! Maybe you can get a few pics up soon too?
I hate the cold... It might be a while. But I just looked at the forecast and Fri/Sat will be the first day to hit 50*F so, I just might. Though 50* is still to cold to be mucking around in the mud IMO.

I just bought a 100mm 1:2.8 Canon Macro Lens I need to break in so it might make it worth it.
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Re: Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

Post by PNWHerper »

Travis,

I hope you enjoy that lens! I have 100 macro as well, and love it. :beer:

Here is a few more photos from this week. Different pond, this time at my work, but some cool finds none-the-less.

A massive tail on this specimen!
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In the dim light of morning, this paedomorph threw me a bit. Its head was so massive, I thought it must be another species. Possibly, a giant salamander. But, when I photographed it I could see the distinguishing features that made it another NW sallie.
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On the way to check the pond, I came across fresh tracks in the middle of the trail...
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The track features (morphology) indicated a young male, so I checked the measurement across the metatarsal pad (the bubble "M" shaped pad in this photo) at being just over 50 mm wide. So, indeed male. Interesting, as another male that looked older had been photographed by our neighbor a few weeks back.

I got excited and checked our trail cam at work... and sure enough...cougar!
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Here is a side-by-side comparison of breeding male and female. Guess which one is which. ;)

Notice how nearly black these 2 are!
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I brought one to class to show the students, and when the sunshine came through this ones tail you could see its vertebrae!
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Also during class, a student showed me this bat that was sleeping in a nook in a big stump. Its a silver-haired bat.
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Also found one of these. My first of the year, and it was near the NW sallie egg masses... I suspect it was eating the eggs. Rough-skinned newt.
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Oh, and almost forgot this... For all you herp trackers out there, this is definitely a sign of salamander breeding!
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That's all for now. Hope you enjoyed!

Get out there and look for herps!
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salamanderhunter
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Re: Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

Post by salamanderhunter »

I was wondering about how the egg masses survived the fish. A cougar at work...ridiculous! :crazyeyes: Love the reports...thanks!
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Re: Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

Post by ThatFrogGuy »

Awesome report!
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Re: Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

Post by FrogO_Oeyes »

PNWHerper wrote:Joe,

I have seen neotenic (neotene) and paedomorph interchangeably in the literature. Maybe someone can enlighten us on the differences??
Technically, the two are different, although to a certain degree they ARE interchangeable.

A paedomorph is an organism in which adults retain juvenile traits. That is, retention of typically juvenile features is the normal standard. In possession of gills, proteids and cryptobranchids are paedomorphic. Neither of these families contains adults which lack gills.

A neotene is an organism in which juveniles reach sexual maturity before or without obtaining adult morphology. Tiger salamanders, northwestern salamanders, and Pacific giant salamanders all typically or commonly have adults which lack gills, so when they are reproductive and possess gills, they are neotenic. Commonly each of these may reproduce while possessing gills, but may later transform.

Axolotls and certain other Ambystoma, and many Eurycea, are typically gilled and non-transforming. However, a number of these are capable, if rarely, of transforming to a terrestrial non-gilled form. These may be described as either neotenic or paedomorphic. I would use the term which best describes the normal biology, which is not necessarily the usual observation. That is, just because we rarely SEE transformed adults doesn't mean they aren't the norm. I would call Cope's giant salamanders neotenic because other Dicamptodon normally transform, and a rash of terrestrial Cope's suggests that either the terrestrials hide effectively, or they are fully capable of transforming but live in an environment which rarely stimulates it. Some Eurycea are highly troglobitic and some may be incapable of transforming, in which case they are paedomorphic. In this genus, three closely related species might hypothetically be differently classified as terrestrial, neotenic, and paedomorphic.
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PNWHerper
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Re: Herps & Habitat: Forest Pond Life

Post by PNWHerper »

Thanks Frogeyes!

That was a great clarification. I could not find really clear differences in the text I was using.

Also, how do you properly pronounce "Paedomorph" and "Neotene"?

Is it "Pay-do-Morph" and "Neo-teen"?
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