Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Dedicated exclusively to field herping.

Moderator: Scott Waters

User avatar
ChrisNM
Posts: 182
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:28 pm
Location: Formerly NM, now DFW Metro
Contact:

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by ChrisNM » August 13th, 2010, 12:40 pm

Paul Lynum wrote:P.S. Am I the only person who hasn't herped in AZ for the past two months ? So many other places that are good this time of year to hit with no herpers. I'll do my best to keep it that way. Yeah I'm a snob I'm ready for AZ now. Maybe I'll see some of you in the field. Doubt it
You're not the only one, I just didn't want to spend my time surveying plants vs herping. Nothing wrong with it given it's for herping and for research purposes, but I'd rather herp. Instead I'm looking after a small university collection and waiting.

User avatar
Brendan
Posts: 435
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:26 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brendan » August 13th, 2010, 12:41 pm

Well said Paul. :beer:

User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by VanAR » August 13th, 2010, 12:59 pm

As a recent non-native AZ poster, I can't help but think this is aimed at myself and the people I know/ran into who have also posted recently.

I don't know what AZ you live/herp in, but we hardly saw a soul out there aside from the people we expected to run into, and we happened to go to some very well-known areas that have been written about as far back as Kauffeld. Even the herpers we ran into by chance were very gracious and considerate of the herps and others.
Little advice to the "not so bright ones" out there. Not a good idea to post pics of snakes that you now have illegally in your collection And DFG if your reading this (Hello) very few are doing anything illegally so don't waste the tax payers money on nothing. Stick to the Gila decoys if you must waste time and resource
In my group and others we ran into, never once did I see a hint of illegal collecting. All animals were treated as gently as possible and released without harm, and NO habitat was disturbed in the process.

Its amusing to me that the people (herper and non-herper alike) we met in Arizona were some of the nicest around, but some of the Arizona-native herpers who are most vocal on the intertubes (definitely not all, as we talked to/met some great natives) are so sour grapes about life :cry:. Get over yourselves. IMO, the only people who ever really bitch and moan about their spots being overrun are the people who were there collecting in the first place.

Van

User avatar
Brandon La Forest
Posts: 244
Joined: July 6th, 2010, 1:23 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brandon La Forest » August 13th, 2010, 1:03 pm

Amen Brother!!! thanks for putting this post up Paul.

And Van what of the Gravid willardi you ripped out of a rock pile to photograph, talk about respecting animals and AZ...

-Brandon-

Paul White
Posts: 2288
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:52 pm
Location: Amarillo, Texas

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Paul White » August 13th, 2010, 1:04 pm

I've only been to Az once and it was to see the grand canyon (I was about 10). But isn't a freaking huge state with lots of eco regions? So if someone finds it over crowded aren't there other areas?

FWIW, I doubt it's unique to AZ. I run into other herps in Palo Duro State Park and Wildcat Bluff up here sometimes (partly because they're some of the only public land so that's where you go if you don't know ranchers/farmers). If someone's connected to local landowners and the like, why would they be on public land anyway? No overbearing game wardens, no non herpers wondering WTH you're doing, the ability talk baby talk to the neonatal rattler you find without getting old looks...)

User avatar
justinm
Posts: 3423
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by justinm » August 13th, 2010, 1:06 pm

I always have a tough time with the xenophobic posts like I feel this one is. There really aren't that many people in the States that are hard core herping. I'm sure that of that many that are less than 1% are poachers. I can appreciate how hard it is to find good spots, but don't bust on people for doing what you do. You act like these guys just blow in rape the land and leave without a care. I think once again it's a small percentage. So to me you're just getting on here to bitch, and that is really lame.

I plan to herp Arizona someday and it will be my dream trip and I will most likely post it HERE! That's what this forum is for. You trying to dissuade people is ridiculous. I guess my advice is for you to just keep not posting... I'm sure that's a ton of fun. All the guys I've met from this forum, and herped with (it's been many) have been top notch guys! Posting trips is the lifeblood of this forum, so I don't really understand your comments trying to stop the rush.

User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by VanAR » August 13th, 2010, 1:09 pm

And Van what of the Gravid willardi you ripped out of a rock pile to photograph, talk about respecting animals and AZ...
Wow, talk about reading into something without knowing the true story, and all from a single photo, too. You must be the best person around for advising people on what cars/houses to buy when you can tell exactly what condition the engine and wiring are in from a single external photograph. You're not even worth dignifying with an explanation of how the willardi was found and treated until the full story comes out.

crybaby

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Fundad » August 13th, 2010, 1:10 pm

MO, the only people who ever really bitch and moan about their spots being overrun are the people who were there collecting in the first place.

Van
There is absolutely no truth whatsoever to that statement..

Not sure why those who have posted in this thread are taking this personally. Paul's post was very generic..

Us in California have learned and we ask anyone from out of state to refrain from posting "during" the prime time. We do occasional posts during the season, but for the
post part wait until the season is over....

Not everyone that VIEWS these posts is our friends, and saying when to go is not a great idea.

Just my thoughts..
Fundad

Paul White
Posts: 2288
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:52 pm
Location: Amarillo, Texas

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Paul White » August 13th, 2010, 1:13 pm

and, fwiw, I haven't seen many of them posting locality (i.e. particular roads). I mean yeah, they have some habitat shots but unless you happen to drive by that scenic vista...it's not like someone who doesn't already know where that is will recognize it.

User avatar
Brandon La Forest
Posts: 244
Joined: July 6th, 2010, 1:23 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brandon La Forest » August 13th, 2010, 1:14 pm

VanAR wrote:
And Van what of the Gravid willardi you ripped out of a rock pile to photograph, talk about respecting animals and AZ...
Wow, talk about reading into something without knowing the true story, and all from a single photo, too. You must be the best person around for advising people on what cars/houses to buy when you can tell exactly what condition the engine and wiring are in from a single external photograph. You're not even worth dignifying with an explanation of how the willardi was found and treated until the full story comes out.

crybaby

haha whats there to know? iv seen dozens of willardi...you heard it rattle saw it ditch under its rock and couldnt refrain yourself from digging it out? same old story...and yes its very possible to see all that from a photograph..

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Fundad » August 13th, 2010, 1:15 pm

You act like these guys just blow in rape the land and leave without a care
It only takes 1 guy Justin to ruin your favorite place for the year, just 1.

Basically I got from Paul in this thread is that he understands why everyone does it.. and its all good. But a little discernment goes along way.

Fundad

User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by VanAR » August 13th, 2010, 1:16 pm

and, fwiw, I haven't seen many of them posting locality (i.e. particular roads). I mean yeah, they have some habitat shots but unless you happen to drive by that scenic vista...it's not like someone who doesn't already know where that is will recognize it.
We were very careful not to take habitat shots where we found snakes. You might be able to recognize a mountain range, or even a particular road, but none were taken within a half-mile of where we found any herps.
haha whats there to know? iv seen dozens of willardi...you heard it rattle saw it ditch under its rock and couldnt refrain yourself from digging it out? same old story...and yes its very possible to see all that from a photograph..
...and you'd be 100% wrong. The snake never once rattled, even before it was found. crybaby

User avatar
jons
Posts: 22
Joined: August 13th, 2010, 1:04 pm

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by jons » August 13th, 2010, 1:18 pm

spot on post paul, brian, and brenden, looks like some people cant comprehend the points you make, oh well. on a side note, i have a friend whose been studying behavior of klaubs and willards for many years now, with permission of az f and g, and just the other day told me he has never seen so much rock damage and missing snakes, go figure.

User avatar
justinm
Posts: 3423
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by justinm » August 13th, 2010, 1:21 pm

jons wrote:spot on post paul, brian, and brenden, looks like some people cant comprehend the points you make, oh well. on a side note, i have a friend whose been studying behavior of klaubs and willards for many years now, with permission of az f and g, and just the other day told me he has never seen so much rock damage and missing snakes, go figure.

I'm sure it's because of FHF and all the guys who post here too. There's no way it could be from native Arizona herpers. Get a grip you guys sound ridiculous.

User avatar
Brandon La Forest
Posts: 244
Joined: July 6th, 2010, 1:23 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brandon La Forest » August 13th, 2010, 1:22 pm

...and you'd be 100% wrong. The snake never once rattled, even before it was found. crybaby
Doesnt change the fact that you still ripped a gravid female out from under her rookery rock so what if it didnt rattle...call me a crybaby sounds like a guilty conscience...

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Fundad » August 13th, 2010, 1:22 pm

Get a grip you guys sound ridiculous.
No.. I am pretty sure YOUR the ridiculous one..

Fundad

User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by VanAR » August 13th, 2010, 1:27 pm

Doesnt change the fact that you still ripped a gravid female out from under her rookery rock so what if it didnt rattle...call me a crybaby sounds like a guilty conscience...
2 things....

1) explain to me how photographing a snake in situ means that it was ripped out from under a rock, and how you can tell it was ripped from under a rock from a single photo.....

2) IF #1 were true (which it isn't even close to being), explain how gentle manipulation of a pregnant snake (which we did not manipulate at all) would affect the health/development of it or its offspring? I've been doing hardcore invasive physiological work on pregnant female snakes in both field and laboratory situations for a good bit of time now, and not once have those manipulations resulted in the loss of a litter. These are resilient animals that can take a ton of abuse before suffering such serious physiological trauma. But, like I said, all that is completely immaterial because we didn't molest the snake ONE BIT!

I'm out- everyone else can continue to bicker about over their poor hurt feelings and prejudiced world views, but I got better things to waste my time on.

Van

Paul White
Posts: 2288
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:52 pm
Location: Amarillo, Texas

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Paul White » August 13th, 2010, 1:28 pm

Justin's not the one accusing someone of molesting a protected species though, based on one photograph that shows no direct interaction. Admittedly, I don't know willardi; maybe they never leave rocks and that really is the only way to find them...but then how has Brenden seen dozens??

User avatar
Brian Hubbs
Posts: 4733
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:41 am
Location: "Buy My Books"-land

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brian Hubbs » August 13th, 2010, 1:35 pm

I went herping in AZ this week (Monday) and saw Paul on the same road (That was on the 9th). :lol: And, 2 other cars (one of which was a friend who didn't recognize my vehicle and would not stop to talk. That's just anti-social, and I didn't recognize him either, so we played "cut off the other herper" games for a little while. It was a hoot, I would zoom past him, then slow down in front of his car, and he would do a U-turn. Then I would do it again...The next day, after I found out who it was we had a good laugh about it.). The other mystery car escaped without being harassed, but evidently found the 2 fake kingsnakes I put on the road, and took them with him. None of us found our target species (unless the other mystery car got one, who knows), and it seems that even the secret roads are getting overcrowded now. You out-of-state people are not bothering us as long as you keep going to the time-worn, well-known spots. Have fun out there, and I could care less if you post 100 reports from the Huachuca's and Chiricahua's. It's all good, just stay away from Paul's secret spots. :lol:

User avatar
Brandon La Forest
Posts: 244
Joined: July 6th, 2010, 1:23 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brandon La Forest » August 13th, 2010, 1:39 pm

It is well documened that gravid willardi espescially will abandon their rookery sites after being molested iv seen this from females that i have follwed for years and so have many others on here...something a lab study cannot tell you. If that female leaves the place she knows it increses her chances of being predated upon and if she does survive to have her babies in a unfamilar place then their chances of being predated on increases as well...and with as much attention as the canyon gets that you found that snake in every animal does make a difference...

User avatar
Ridge Walker
Posts: 127
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 3:41 pm

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Ridge Walker » August 13th, 2010, 1:43 pm

This is a problem that has been going on for a long time now in many areas of the country, not just AZ. If you want to keep your favorite sites pristine just keep your mouth shut. Delay posting photos during the "hot" times such as emergence, monsoons, flipping season, etc. Make sure not to have anything in your photos that reveals locality hints. If you put up a post from an area that interests me, I will absolutely examine it for every last detail. So will everyone else.

RW

User avatar
Brian Hubbs
Posts: 4733
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:41 am
Location: "Buy My Books"-land

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brian Hubbs » August 13th, 2010, 1:44 pm

You are a dastardly person Ridge... :lol:

User avatar
justinm
Posts: 3423
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by justinm » August 13th, 2010, 1:45 pm

Fundad wrote:
Get a grip you guys sound ridiculous.
No.. I am pretty sure YOUR the ridiculous one..

Fundad

Do you always excel at being a douchebag and thinking that you're the only one who could possibly find a spot on his own? The arrogance of some of you is truly amazing.

chad ks
Posts: 632
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:31 pm

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by chad ks » August 13th, 2010, 1:57 pm

Paul Lynum wrote:Seems with all the post about AZ lately (shocking ) there's some confusion with both the "Out of State Herpers" and the "AZ Native Herpers". I'm not sure if I'm the one to try and shed light on this as I'm a Californian. However, owning a home and a few acres here and there throughout the state of AZ I figure I can try and be a spoke person and clear some things up on both sides.

For the "AZ Herpers":
Yes, there are several post as of late with everyone fighting to get to the computer first and post their pics from their trip. This has many of you shaking their heads including myself. There is a reason that you DONT see (Hardly) post by Arizonians. It's simple. Arizonains know how privilaged they are to live in such a wonderfull herp mecca. We also know how fast (over night in some cases) a canyon, road, or even an entire mountain range can be exploited in so many ways. Most of us have been severly burned, lied too, and stabbed in the back sharing with others. For many of us we dug out the map books, studied life histories of animals we have interest in and did the grunt work. Some of the species we are interested in took years to figure out how to find them. The majority of hardcore AZ natives find far more rare and secrative herps than anyone of these post put toghether. We take for granted how good we have it and WE KNOW how GOOD we have it. We also for the most part stay away from the well known areas. The areas that are being swarmed daily for the past couple weeks. The ones being posted right now. If we want to go somewhere and find certain herp, we can and not see anyone else. We have the choice and knowledge where to go. We know what to expect if we decide to try a well known spot. It goes without saying that anyone who has a spot of their own or shares with a few selected trusted people (People that found the same sopt on their own!) to keep it that way. We know what happens when we don't. It will be on here next week. All the hard work gone just like that.

For the "Out of Staters"
Nice post and pretty pics:D What is being posted now is the same places and the same animals that has been posted since herp forums began. Only a few locales have fallen victim to the internet. One specific locale is a heart breaking one. Anyway, as you can see and many of you have experienced is there are plenty of herps to be found and always will. Post all you want. Sure you might only find rock piles that have been dismantelled and herp roads that have 5-8 cars on them, or take a number to a talus slide but, with persistance you will get eventually find what your looking for. I'm sure one of the main reasons you come to AZ is to meet new herpers and you do. Lots of them. It's a huge convention in some locales. Everyone is sharing and talking. Nothing has changed except the volume of herpers. Herpers hitting the same places and even (Yeah I've heard about the fist flying on one road due to over crowding ) crawling up each others a$$. It gets worse every year and will continue to do so. As long as everyone has to "share" for whatever reason things will get worse for the herper trying to find herps. It's well known that herpers for the most part can't keep their mouths shut. Every year there will be more and more herpers thanks to the internet. Eventually, some of you will get tired of all the traffic and start showing some restrant. Unless, you like crowds and some of you do. So be it. Good for you stay where your at Little advice to the "not so bright ones" out there. Not a good idea to post pics of snakes that you now have illegally in your collection And DFG if your reading this (Hello) very few are doing anything illegally so don't waste the tax payers money on nothing. Stick to the Gila decoys if you must waste time and resource

I know that many people come to AZ (It also can be CA, TX, FL, or wherever) that are really excited to be on a dream trip. I understand wanting to share with people your good furtune and great trip. But think for a second. What is wrong with sharing over email with your friends? People that you know and trust? Many herpers are great people and have the most respect for herps. However, there are many that do not and depend on your post to send them the green light to hit an area and not because they 'only take pics" . I'm sure if many of you were able to see in PERSON who was looking at your post and the intentions some of them have you would be a little more reluctant to say anything. That's what most of the AZ people have learned.

PL

P.S. Am I the only person who hasn't herped in AZ for the past two months ? So many other places that are good this time of year to hit with no herpers. I'll do my best to keep it that way. Yeah I'm a snob I'm ready for AZ now. Maybe I'll see some of you in the field. Doubt it

Nope, I didn't hunt AZ this year...yet.

I have seen a number of AZ herpers come to my state and hunt the revolving door spots. So...I guess the door swings both ways. Also, didn't you make it up through the midwest recently? I remember a phone call back in 07 or maybe it was 06 inquiring about spots, absolutely nothing wrong with that and I was happy to help, but let's not pretend that even the "hardcore" herpers don't hunt the shared places as well. I suppose the AZ herpers just need to keep doing what they're doing- avoiding the low hanging fruit of localities and keep up the good work by hitting the areas that need attention and hard work (something you seem to know a thing or two about Paul with some of your recent finds)...

User avatar
ChrisNM
Posts: 182
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:28 pm
Location: Formerly NM, now DFW Metro
Contact:

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by ChrisNM » August 13th, 2010, 1:58 pm

Paul White wrote:and, fwiw, I haven't seen many of them posting locality (i.e. particular roads). I mean yeah, they have some habitat shots but unless you happen to drive by that scenic vista...it's not like someone who doesn't already know where that is will recognize it.
Paul, not jumping on you, just point out a fact and your reply helps...

Google Earth! How many times was that mentioned within some recent AZ posts. I seem to recall Natalie and Mike's posts mentioning it. Before Google Earth there were maps. It is widely known people have scavenged locality info from simple habitat shots, including the favorite posed animal + habitat photos (before Grismer took claim to that technique?!! LOL)

I see both sides of the story and I can agree with both.

User avatar
ChrisNM
Posts: 182
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:28 pm
Location: Formerly NM, now DFW Metro
Contact:

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by ChrisNM » August 13th, 2010, 2:02 pm

chad ks wrote:Nope, I didn't hunt AZ this year...yet.

I have seen a number of AZ herpers come to my state and hunt the revolving door spots. So...I guess the door swings both ways. Also, didn't you make it up through the midwest recently? I remember a phone call back in 07 or maybe it was 06 inquiring about spots, absolutely nothing wrong with that and I was happy to help, but let's not pretend that even the "hardcore" herpers don't hunt the shared places as well. I suppose the AZ herpers just need to keep doing what they're doing- avoiding the low hanging fruit of localities and keep up the good work by hitting the areas that need attention and hard work (something you seem to know a thing or two about Paul with some of your recent finds)...
Hey, you could have let me know you, et al, were hitting up the Chiricahuas in 08, but instead I found out from Pierson after meeting up with him. Had I known I would have asked for more time off, particularly given what I know now of what was found! :roll:

User avatar
Brandon La Forest
Posts: 244
Joined: July 6th, 2010, 1:23 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brandon La Forest » August 13th, 2010, 2:07 pm

The bantering is pretty retarted but look at it this way...

I find it kinda disappointing that A. everyone just seems to need recognition based solely on how many pictures and animals they find and B. how everyone who doesn't live here finds it acceptable to just post everything the find right after they find it. Yeah its no secret that AZ is good to herp this time of year but all these post just perpetuate the problem and amount of herpers who come here. I would be willing to bet that if I went out to someone elses back yard and imediatly posted pics of my trip that they would have a problem with it. Its easy to not have to accept any responsibility for what happens to spots and animals when you don't live here. Not to mention all these people specifically targeting Montains really draws negative attention. It pretty easy to see that about 99% of montain shots are not insitu...nothing wrong with getting a photograph but some discretion should be taken.

These forums (not just this one) have really taken some great spots and just destroyed them or made them completely un-herpable. When certain spots in SE Arizona (not just there) have 5+ cars on them night after night it just gets very old....and people wonder why AZ herpers don't really like to help out-of-staters.

If you dont live here and herp here on a regular basis how can you really have anything to say on the matter. AZ is by far the most popular herping destination in the world (atleast the US) and if everyone here thinks these post dont have negative consequences then maybe you should reconsider your eithical standpoints on herpin...

ElegansComplex
Posts: 13
Joined: June 21st, 2010, 9:33 pm

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by ElegansComplex » August 13th, 2010, 2:10 pm

Again I ask, which is actually better for the animals: To have impact spread around among many localities or a to have heavy impact on just a few localities? I know what's best for snobby herpers, but I honestly don't know what's best for species-wide demographics. If everyone had perfect knowledge of the distribution of every herp, I can't help but think that people would tend to spread out their impact more evenly, and that no one site would suffer heavy impact (only slight or moderate annoyance for many sites). I don't know if it's true, but it's a possibility that doesn't ever seem considered here. I realize this doesn't apply to especially rare or localized species.

chad ks
Posts: 632
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:31 pm

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by chad ks » August 13th, 2010, 2:11 pm

I see where you're coming from Paul...and after having read some of the responses I think I understand where both groups are coming from...

The thing that Paul et al. needs to understand is that AZ is not unique in this way and as I can personally attest to many other states such as mine see a high volume of herping traffic funneled into somewhat small areas in a narrow window of time. What I think is most important to note is that there's nothing that we can do to stop it other than to keep this site and all other field herping social websites from existing and there's no legitimate reason to complain unless the person doing the complaining is a field herping hermit who's never contributed in any way to the expansion of this culture. Obviously just by our participation in this thread none of us can claim membership in the the latter category.

So I suppose my question to these native AZ herpers (and Paul):

What would you have the out of state herpers do? Stop coming? Should all herpers just herp in their own states? I would never make these demands on behalf of KS in spite of my own frustrations...

User avatar
justinm
Posts: 3423
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by justinm » August 13th, 2010, 2:13 pm

Brandon La Forest wrote:
If you dont live here and herp here on a regular basis how can you really have anything to say on the matter. AZ is by far the most popular herping destination in the world (atleast the US) and if everyone here thinks these post dont have negative consequences then maybe you should reconsider your eithical standpoints on herpin...
Once again the xenophobic behavior is astounding. You don't think that other herpers make long trips to other places? You don't think that nearly any herper on this board hasn't had a visitor that they took out? I know a lot of people make the trip to Southern Illinois from all over the country and further, what about Florida, Kansas, the alterna spots, SoCal etc.

You guys have a neat place but, you don't F***** own it! Public land is for all of us! Hubbs made it pretty clear that you hardcore guys are still tripping over each other, which is pretty funny. I would suggest if you have an issue go about resolving it differently than being holier than thou.

So accusing people of collecting, habitat destruction and breaking laws is very irresponsible and only damaging to this small community.

User avatar
Brian Hubbs
Posts: 4733
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:41 am
Location: "Buy My Books"-land

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brian Hubbs » August 13th, 2010, 2:15 pm

Chad, I certainly hope you are not lumping ME in with the AZ crowd, as I said nothing offensive at all, and as for KS, we all know there are no snakes there...so why even go? :D

Paul: Who? Me? shut up? What, what, what'd I say...? :lol:

User avatar
ChrisNM
Posts: 182
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:28 pm
Location: Formerly NM, now DFW Metro
Contact:

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by ChrisNM » August 13th, 2010, 2:16 pm

Brandon La Forest wrote:The bantering is pretty retarted but look at it this way...

I find it kinda disappointing that A. everyone just seems to need recognition based solely on how many pictures and animals they find and B. how everyone who doesn't live here finds it acceptable to just post everything the find right after they find it. Yeah its no secret that AZ is good to herp this time of year but all these post just perpetuate the problem and amount of herpers who come here. I would be willing to bet that if I went out to someone elses back yard and imediatly posted pics of my trip that they would have a problem with it. Its easy to not have to accept any responsibility for what happens to spots and animals when you don't live here. Not to mention all these people specifically targeting Montains really draws negative attention. It pretty easy to see that about 99% of montain shots are not insitu...nothing wrong with getting a photograph but some discretion should be taken.

These forums (not just this one) have really taken some great spots and just destroyed them or made them completely un-herpable. When certain spots in SE Arizona (not just there) have 5+ cars on them night after night it just gets very old....and people wonder why AZ herpers don't really like to help out-of-staters.

If you dont live here and herp here on a regular basis how can you really have anything to say on the matter. AZ is by far the most popular herping destination in the world (atleast the US) and if everyone here thinks these post dont have negative consequences then maybe you should reconsider your eithical standpoints on herpin...
So AZ should only be herped by AZ residents? I see the same problems here in NM. Matter of fact, I cut one of my July outtings short due to the amount of rock flipping damage I'd seen in Silver City. What about 20+ cars in west TX back in the 90s?! The only difference between TX and our states is that we have BLM land. I see your points, and I agree mostly. Where I don't is the holier than thou stance. Hell, if that's the case, I don't want out-of-staters coming to NM for big game hunting.

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Fundad » August 13th, 2010, 2:16 pm

Do you always excel at being a douchebag and thinking that you're the only one who could possibly find a spot on his own?
What are you talking about, MORON. What does this have to do with me calling you "ridiculous". Actually let me call you a "Ridiculous MORON"!!

You run your mouth all the time, without saying anything intelligent.. I am tired of it, and calling you out on it..

Fundad

User avatar
Brian Hubbs
Posts: 4733
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:41 am
Location: "Buy My Books"-land

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brian Hubbs » August 13th, 2010, 2:19 pm

:roll:

User avatar
Brandon La Forest
Posts: 244
Joined: July 6th, 2010, 1:23 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brandon La Forest » August 13th, 2010, 2:20 pm

Once again the xenophobic behavior is astounding. You don't think that other herpers make long trips to other places? You don't think that nearly any herper on this board hasn't had a visitor that they took out? I know a lot of people make the trip to Southern Illinois from all over the country and further, what about Florida, Kansas, the alterna spots, SoCal etc.

You guys have a neat place but, you don't F***** own it! Public land is for all of us! Hubbs made it pretty clear that you hardcore guys are still tripping over each other, which is pretty funny. I would suggest if you have an issue go about resolving it differently than being holier than thou.

So accusing people of collecting, habitat destruction and breaking laws is very irresponsible and only damaging to this small community.
All this posting is damaging....there are no accusations...maybe after you have seen it for yourself you might hold weight in this argument..

ChrisNM, i hear ya its nothing to do with holier than thou its about ethics...and i feel ya on the big game thing, damn elk tags are getting hard to draw these days...:(

ErikNM
Posts: 112
Joined: June 9th, 2010, 12:54 pm

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by ErikNM » August 13th, 2010, 2:23 pm

That's why I love NM. We have 90% of what southeast AZ has as well as a high percentage of what west tx has. Both those states are what I consider the go to states for herps. And only the smart herpers come herp here ;)

User avatar
ChrisNM
Posts: 182
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:28 pm
Location: Formerly NM, now DFW Metro
Contact:

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by ChrisNM » August 13th, 2010, 2:23 pm

Brian Hubbs wrote:Chad, I certainly hope you are not lumping ME in with the AZ crowd
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck......

When you heading back this way slacker?

Paul White
Posts: 2288
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:52 pm
Location: Amarillo, Texas

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Paul White » August 13th, 2010, 2:25 pm

Brendon: if you herp the Amarillo area and post shots, go for it. It doesn't hack me off.
Though to be fair, we don't have many endangered/rare species I guess. If you find a hognose I will be jealous though. Still haven't seen one this year.
And I still want to know on what evidence you're accusing someone of ripping a willardi out from a rock pile? The one head shot I saw didn't give any indication of that....

User avatar
ChrisNM
Posts: 182
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:28 pm
Location: Formerly NM, now DFW Metro
Contact:

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by ChrisNM » August 13th, 2010, 2:28 pm

ErikNM wrote:That's why I love NM. We have 90% of what southeast AZ has as well as a high percentage of what west tx has. Both those states are what I consider the go to states for herps. And only the smart herpers come herp here ;)

My memory could be shot on this, but...

minus a few fringe species in TX, NM pretty much has all of the US-native Chihuahuan Desert herps. TX and AZ are pretty much fringe when it comes to those species. Where AZ beats us is with the Sonoran herps, which oddly enough, if memory serves me well, the Chihuahuan Desert is still more diverse both flora and fauna. AZ just lucked out with habitat corridors.

And if stateship wasn't so stupid way back when, NM and AZ would be one in the same and called NM, so HA!

chad ks
Posts: 632
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:31 pm

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by chad ks » August 13th, 2010, 2:30 pm

"I find it kinda disappointing that A. everyone just seems to need recognition based solely on how many pictures and animals they find"

Ah the ole false dichotomy rears its ugly head again...there are other reasons to post then simply for recognition even though this is a common result. One other reason is the stimulation that people get from living vicariously through one another. I suppose a cynic would say that everyone posts for recognition but the non-cynic might say that they do it as a system of herp-trip quid pro quo: "you let me live vicariously through you by posting pictures and stories for me to read while I'm sitting in a cubicle and I'll do the same for you." I actually think of it as the latter and know many others who do as well- the accumulation of my own herp trip posts and pictures is also a nice side effect. This is why I always appreciate the posts with a lot of well written narrative as opposed to the posts that just lazily throw up a slathering of pictures...the latter posts seem to qualify for what you're accusing all posts of being if any of them do.


"These forums (not just this one) have really taken some great spots and just destroyed them or made them completely un-herpable. When certain spots in SE Arizona (not just there) have 5+ cars on them night after night it just gets very old....and people wonder why AZ herpers don't really like to help out-of-staters."

Not really...they obviously aren't un-herpable considering that people continue to go and continue to have things to post. I think you should complain less and celebrate more because as long as people continue to hunt these revolving door spots it leaves many other areas with equally productive places that are tougher to access to...guess who...YOU?! :mrgreen:

"If you dont live here and herp here on a regular basis how can you really have anything to say on the matter. AZ is by far the most popular herping destination in the world (atleast the US) and if everyone here thinks these post dont have negative consequences then maybe you should reconsider your eithical standpoints on herpin..."

I understand that you're upset, but there wouldn't even be a topic to discuss if not for the people who don't live in AZ and who do not herp it on a regular basis...so these people have the most say if you ask me. After all, they're not showing any signs of letting up. I know that I, as an out of stater, plan to herp AZ pretty much every year for the rest of my life and I've already grown weary of the revoling door spots so now I plan to set out to the harder-to-hunt localities. And yes, I plan on posting. :beer:

chad ks
Posts: 632
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:31 pm

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by chad ks » August 13th, 2010, 2:31 pm

Brian Hubbs wrote:Chad, I certainly hope you are not lumping ME in with the AZ crowd, as I said nothing offensive at all, and as for KS, we all know there are no snakes there...so why even go? :D

Paul: Who? Me? shut up? What, what, what'd I say...? :lol:
ha, I'd be pretty hard pressed to assign ANY state-herping-identity to you Dr. Hubbs, with all of the herping mileage under your belt the whole USA is your herping backyard... :beer:

User avatar
Brian Hubbs
Posts: 4733
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:41 am
Location: "Buy My Books"-land

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brian Hubbs » August 13th, 2010, 2:32 pm

Chris: Maybe Sept...we can go to that secret spot and find hordes of milks again... :)

Chad: Thanks, but Shhh...that's a secret.

Paul White
Posts: 2288
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:52 pm
Location: Amarillo, Texas

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Paul White » August 13th, 2010, 2:37 pm

"you let me live vicariously through you by posting pictures and stories for me to read while I'm sitting in a cubicle and I'll do the same for you.
I'm working late on a friday answering phones and this is 100% the reason I'm here right now. I'm not as attached to the narrative (although it varies; I can't write narrative to save my life, so mine are painful to read. People with literary skills, their narratives are nice.).

chad ks
Posts: 632
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:31 pm

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by chad ks » August 13th, 2010, 2:39 pm

Not to be rude, but I wanted to reiterate this point because it represents a handful of my herping friends and from that alone I bet it represents a lot of herpers who I don't even know:
I know that I, as an out of stater, plan to herp AZ pretty much every year for the rest of my life and I've already grown weary of the revoling door spots so now I plan to set out to the harder-to-hunt localities. And yes, I plan on posting.
What's going to happen when we make predictions based on the last ten or so years of herping growth at popular destinations? If the past decade is any indication then it seems as if even the most difficult places to hunt will eventually be popularized and hunted annually by non-residents. This applies to all states with popular herping destinations.

This is an incredibly important discussion to have because it involves a lot of elements such as regulation and sustainability.

User avatar
klawnskale
Posts: 1211
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:09 pm

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by klawnskale » August 13th, 2010, 2:39 pm

I found stuff in AZ this week; but I won't be posting it here. Hubbs would have been very proud of what I found; especially the numbers of ***** I found in one area alone. And it wasn't in the Huachucas OR the Chiricahuas. It was an area I found on a map by myself. I like mystery. Learn the habitat preferences of that target animal, get a map and explore. No one can ever accuse me of "stealing" spots. Takes the mystery out of it.

User avatar
Brian Hubbs
Posts: 4733
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:41 am
Location: "Buy My Books"-land

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brian Hubbs » August 13th, 2010, 3:04 pm

Oh Paul, don't go get your panties in a bunch...I like steak...but, it's MY road...not yours... :lol:

Actually, if the road belongs to anyone it should be my CA friend who first hunted it in 1992. He was there last week. He got one. Nanner, nanner... ;)

When's the next steak dinner? I could invite some out-of-staters...

chad ks
Posts: 632
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:31 pm

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by chad ks » August 13th, 2010, 3:07 pm

Paul Lynum wrote:Chad,

I have nothing but, repect for you. I do recall talking with you about the midwest but, if I remember correctlyl my attitude was to never visit there. And so I went to the midwest in 08 (lol) with just a map. I don't recall asking for help as I picked every spot on my own. Besides I would have been to embarased to ask :)


PL
Thanks Paul...yes, I remember the discussion and that you weren't just inquiring about information. I believe that you'd do quite well here without any information, but I'm sure you still get my point. I doubt that you've never asked for herping help; there's nothing wrong with asking. We all do it, that's my point. Cheers!

User avatar
Kent VanSooy
Posts: 1100
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:51 am
Location: Oceanside

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Kent VanSooy » August 13th, 2010, 3:31 pm

This is a common theme, maybe more human than herp-related. Here's another example from my neck of the woods...
The recent boom in surfing has made heretofore isolated surfing spots more crowded, and territorial wars have erupted over which waves belong to whom. Call it Wet Side Story. Frequently an area's regular surfers conspire to keep would-be outside boardsmen away by intimidation. In May a group of surfers from Torrance, Calif., filed a $6 million claim against the city of Palos Verdes Estates for allegedly failing to control the Bay Boys, a surfing gang that they say intimidated nonlocals who dared to try to surf at prime Lunada Bay.

All this seems far removed from endless summers and surfing safaris, and today's current of violence has given the lie to the sport's laid-back image. Killer waves may be hard to come by, but the Pacific's a big ocean, dudes.
In CA we try to have our cake and eat it too, by encouraging folks to post their shots (without giving too many clues), AND waiting until the season is over to do so.

Brian Eagar
Posts: 430
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:59 am

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brian Eagar » August 13th, 2010, 3:36 pm

This is why I have argued that this forum should not be open to anonymous access.
It's bad enough that all the registered users can view these posts. I'm more worried about the tons of lurkers out there who just skim info and never bother to register or contribute

I can understand the excitement of these non-AZ herpers rushing to their computers to download pics and tell their tales.
I am guilty of that for a variety of reasons. Mostly I just like to share pictures and tell a story that I hope like minded people will enjoy. Seeing the experience materialize in a digital storybook helps keep the magic alive for me.

I can also understand the mentality of Paul, Brendan and Fundad in asking for restraint and delay in posting.
I have seen many many places torn up in Utah from areas I have posted on these forums for the past 8 years.
I regret posting any habitat shots when I revisit areas or like areas only to find all of the rocks torn up or thrown down the hill. Rock flakes, fissures and situations don't grow back and moisture seals are a precious resource in the west.
I think eastern herpers potentially take rock flipping in the west for granted based on their eastern experiences.
It is going to be much easier for a rock to reset and vegetation to regrow around it in the east where moisture is plentiful than it is in the southwest. Likewise another difference with western herping is that much herping is limited to road cruising paved roads. Paved roads through good habitat are few and far between. So despite the fact that there are tens of thousands of acres of similar habitat to explore, without a paved road the finding is going to be much more difficult for some species unless your name is diamond back dave. If all the good paved roads are filled up with herpers durring the monsoons. I can see why the locals would be angry. Too much traffic will definitely keep some species off of the road completely. Not to mention make cruising more difficult to do safely.

To tag on a Utah centric complaint I have for herpers is don't try setting up rock situations like you know work in the midwest or California. They don't work here so stop messing up the rocks. Snakes need an escape below the frostline most of the year here. Rocks placed flat on the surface will generally not work here. Conditions are extreme cold or hot with little in between here and animals need an escape.
There are several areas near famous national parks in Utah that I have been to where people have taken apart rock piles or
excavated flat rocks and laid them flat on the soil. This ruins them in my experience so stop it. :x

User avatar
Brandon La Forest
Posts: 244
Joined: July 6th, 2010, 1:23 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brandon La Forest » August 13th, 2010, 3:42 pm

This is an incredibly important discussion to have because it involves a lot of elements such as regulation and sustainability.
Which is why I personally believe that we should hold eachother to a certain level of accountability. Everyone who likes to see all these in-season posts is doing it for selfish reasons. The last 10 years as just shown how big this hobby can get and its growing at an incredibly dangerous pace. The fact that more people alone are in this hobby correlates directly to collecting of wild fauna and habitat destruction. PPL act like their their walking up and down the same slopes day after day doesnt do any damage, however they are dearly mistaken. Its not just about collecting of animals (legal or not).

How can we expect to have anything changed if this is all the government officals see? At this rate I can see Arizona becoming the next Utah...

Post Reply