Turtle Icicles

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Antonsrkn
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Turtle Icicles

Post by Antonsrkn »

So I came across a somewhat bizarre situation the other day, maybe its not that unusual but i have never come across it so I thought maybe it would be worth sharing and hearing some other peoples thoughts on it.

The weather here in Wisconsin has been pretty frigid, we had snow this past friday and its been uncomfortably cold since then as well. Yesterday I went out for a short hike in an area that is usually fairly productive in warmer weather. I was hoping that with all the rain we have had lately salamanders would be abundant, disappointingly I only found 1 blue spotted salamander. Here is where it gets interesting, in one woodland pond I spotted the shell of a blandings turtle protruding above the water. I watched for a while and there was no movement, curiosity got the better of me and I waded out to it. The turtle was just floating out in the water and as I got closer to it I could tell it was obviously dead, its limbs were splayed out and its neck was stretched out and it was floating a good foot above the bottom. I picked the turtle up and took it back to shore where I took a look at it. I remember thinking it was in remarkably good condition for being dead and must have just passed away recently. I set it down on shore and continued on, not 20 feet further on I saw yet another blandings turtle floating out in the pond, this one was further out and I was still miserably cold from my earlier wade in so I didn't go in after it. Another few minutes later I saw 2 painted turtles floating in the water, one was closer to shore and i took a large stick and maneuvered it closer in until I could grab it. At first I thought the turtle was dead as well but as I held it she slowly slowly retracted its limp head back towards its shell, I had a live one here! Upon closer inspection despite being completely listless and comatose the turtle was most definitely alive, but you had to look closely to tell. At this point I spotted something else floating a ways out in the water and as I watched it brought its head up above water before slowly submerging it again. Well the idea of going out there really didn't appeal much to me but again curiosity got the better of me, so I took my shoes and socks off, then my pants too because it was too deep out there for me to just try pulling them up and plunged into the water and started wading out. I got out to the center of the pond and what I saw was a Common snapping turtle floating in the water at an angle that would have convinced me it was dead for sure if I hadn't seen it bring its head above water myself. Within another few feet of the 1st snapper there was another floating there that I hadn't seen from shore. I grabbed both of them and took them back to dry land, at this point I couldn't feel my toes haha. I hauled them out and set them down next to the painted turtle that hadn't budged, they all seemed dead for sure... None of them had their eyes open and as I picked them up the snappers heads just lolled around on limp necks. But when I observed them for a while I would see occasional movement such as twitch of the tail, a retraction of the neck, a foot being moved a millimeter over. When I placed one in the water, it even raised its head which was by far the most movement I saw from it the entire time. I went back to check up on the 1st blandings turtle who was still laying spread eagled exactly where I had left it and hadn't even twitched, but upon close observation I determined it was indeed alive due to a couple snot bubbles appearing from its nostril to indicate it was infact breathing. During this time the painted turtle had warmed up sufficiently to make a couple movements like hold its head up on its own or stick a leg out, none of the turtles even once opened their eyes.

So what I had here was a pond full of floating turtle icicles who were still alive but completely comatose. My guess is that all the turtles had emerged but the last few days of cold weather put them all out of commission. Today is slightly warmer so hopefully they are all coming back to life. But I had never heard of anything like this before, I was especially surprised to find that the snappers were affected as much as the other turtles, I have seen photos of them active in icy water before. I thought I would share my observations and get some other peoples thoughts on this, is my assessment of the situation accurate? Does this happen with any sort of frequency, will the turtles slowly come back to life as it gets warmer or are they done for?

Oh and hardly a surprise but with my wading into the icy cold water, I'm feeling kind of sick today with a nasty headache so apologies if my post isn't completely coherent.

Some photos...

A turtle line up:
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What do snapping turtles dream of?
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I tried getting some nicer photos, but the turtles could have passed for dead so I didn't put much effort into it and only took several photos.
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I also took some extreme macros of their skin. I have a bunch of these but this is the only one I have uploaded.
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And to finish things off, here is yours truly. Tired from a long saturday night before and more than a little cold after my polar plunge...
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John Martin
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Re: Turtle Icicles

Post by John Martin »

That is really, really interesting! We all know how "tough" reptiles are, but this is ridiculous! My guess is that they are all just fine and will survive this. I too remember seeing painted turtles swimming under the ice of a pond. Also, when I was quite young and inexperienced and living in Ohio I had a gulf coast box turtle that I "hibernated" over the winter. I dug a pit, perhaps 12"-15" deep, added some straw, and covered the hole with a piece of slate, with some soil on top of that. I also left an opening at one end for the poor guy's exit the next spring. We had one of those early spring/late winter warm days with some rain and thawing snow, followed by a quick return to freezing temps. A couple of days later I thought I'd better check on the inhabitant and found him frozen in the middle of a block of ice :shock: . I slowly thawed this in our garage and that turtle was just fine - go figure! :thumb:
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Turtle Icicles

Post by Mike VanValen »

Wow, very interesting. I think you're correct on the situation here. I've heard of this but have never seen it personally with turtles. I've seen several snakes in this state of suspended animation.

Why no pic of the Blanding's?
joeysgreen
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Re: Turtle Icicles

Post by joeysgreen »

Unfortunately, while I'd like to be optomistic about the hardiness of chelonians, I foresee this to be one of those unfortunate kill events. While these species often are active under the ice, they are not frozen; living in cold, but far from frozen water. This appears anyhow, that the animals found were unable to avoid a freeze event. When this happens in freeze INtolerant species, blindness is often the result, as is overall "poor doing", and some for unmeasureable reasons appear fine, but never again feed... which obviously leads to a slow but sure demise. If any of the turtles have a chance, IMO it would be the painted turtle, as it's the most freeze tolerant species. The big HOWever, is that they largely lose this ability with growth, AND it appears that the one you found has nonetheless experienced the same fate as the snappers.

Ian
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Antonsrkn
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Re: Turtle Icicles

Post by Antonsrkn »

Thanks for the input!

John, I hope you're right that they will be no worse for wear afterwards and that story with the box turtle gives me some hope, if a boxie could survive it hopefully these turtles which are definitely more cold tolerant will pull through.

Mike, initially I was completely sure the Blandings was dead and by the time I returned to check up on it I was fed up with photographing comatose turtles, the photos were all just missing something so I just skipped the photography aspect for the most part. Hindsight is 20/20, now I realize I should have taken photos to accentuate the turtles unusual state rather than try to mask it. Let me make it up to you with an old photo :)Image

Ian, I should point out that despite me saying misleading things like; Icy cold water, polar plunge, Ice cold...etc. I actually didn't observe any ice even along the edges of the water. Not to say it wasn't REALLY cold but atleast at the time of my visit the water temps were above freezing, and I don't think our cold snap was anywhere near bad enough to flash freeze the pond. Hopefully, I will get a chance to go out there again soon and I will check and see if there are turtle carcasses floating around. I was thinking it would be unlikely that every single turtle would recover as some of them are no doubt weaker than others and no matter whether they are adapted to survive this, it has to be a serious stressor on them and the weaker individuals would of course be likelier to succumb.

Thanks for the responses and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this was interesting!
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John Martin
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Re: Turtle Icicles

Post by John Martin »

:D Just to add to the boxie story, and date myself at the same time, I must tell you that I acquired this turtle from Ray Singleton in ~ early-mid '60's. :D :D If any of you has even heard of his name, you are an old fart! He used to have the most preposterous price lists, haha... snakes by the foot, as if he could fill orders for 8' coachwhips, 9' indigos, etc. Ahh, the good old days. ;) I asked him if I could ship stuff for trade, which I did (black rats, whatever else I can't remember), and was like a kid at Christmas when my return package arrived - a nasty green water snake, the world's ugliest yellow rat, and - gasp! - a scarlet kingsnake. I was the happiest kid on the planet.

P.S. - sorry to sorta hijack your thread Anton :lol:
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TeeJay
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Re: Turtle Icicles

Post by TeeJay »

The conditions you describe of those turtles sounds just like turtles that have been trapped underwater and suffering from a lack of oxygen. I've been trapping turtles for research since 1995 and a few (Painted, Snappers and a Blandings) have been accidentally submerged in a collapsed trap for too long. Completely comatose with barely any movement. The Blandings died, but the others were gone the next day when I came back to check.

That IS an interesting observation! Anyone else seen anything like this? From what research I've heard concerning Blandings that emerged into winter conditions, it doesn't sound good. They live for quite a while but eventually die. You'll definitely want to go back and check for fatalities.

That frozen Box turtle is especially interesting. We've been monitoring Blandings turtles overwintering in a small creek. Last year the water level dropped significantly and I'm absolutely convinced we had 2 turtles encased in ice. Thinking these 2 wouldn't make it for sure, the next spring they were away from the overwintering site and were doing just fine!
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TeeJay
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Re: Turtle Icicles

Post by TeeJay »

Hey John... When you mentioned Ray Singleton... something snapped! I think I bought 2 Box turtles from him in the early '70's !!! I wonder who still has his old price lists. I remember being able to buy and sell snakes 'by the foot'. I'm gonna bring this up on the Herpetoculture Forum.
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JakeScott
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Re: Turtle Icicles

Post by JakeScott »

I have actually witnessed such behavior in E. painted turtles. Not in the lump sum you've seemed to find, but I remember in Maine we'd see them, sometimes even on shore, lifeless looking only to investigate further and find that they were infact alive. I also found a E. box in Maryland that was in my backyard, in the snow during a late year storm. It also looked dead dead, but I brought it inside and put it in a box (yep, stuck the box turtle in a box) and the next morning it was scratching at the sides. Let it go a week later.
This really was an interesting post!

-Jake Scott
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TurtleTim
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Re: Turtle Icicles

Post by TurtleTim »

Very interesting. I've also found this Spring to be a nightmare of turtle mortality, and seeing your observations leads me to believe this probably isn't a locale specific event. How sad. I'm used to seeing a few dead turtles after the first thaw, but this year the body count has risen into the hundreds combining several different locations. I'm in NE Illinois, and I'm sure last years terrible drought has played a major role in what I have seen so far.

Like you, I have found a few turtles that were mostly comatose floating in the water, but the vast majority were predated shells strewn about the shoreline. These were found in 30 minutes of walking the woods next to a decent sized lake. In the picture are 46 shells, with the final count around 110, give or take a few.

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I know the painted and snappers will bounce back in a few years, but to think losing even a small percentage of the adult Blanding's around here would be a pretty devastating blow..
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Mike VanValen
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Post by Mike VanValen »

predated by what? That's a pretty insane number of turtles.
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Dane_Zoo
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Re: Turtle Icicles

Post by Dane_Zoo »

interesting post Anton

This makes me wonder if turtles have the same "anti-freeze" in their blood as frogs and salamanders
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TurtleTim
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Post by TurtleTim »

Mike VanValen wrote:predated by what? That's a pretty insane number of turtles.
My guess is 'coons. Most of the shells were found piled around the bases of old oak trees within 30 meters of the water. Maybe scavenged would be a better word. The first 46 were found just after the ice had thawed, so I initially assumed winter-kill but after seeing several comatose live turtles, I re-searched the area where the first bunch were found, and new shells just kept piling up weeks after the ice had melted.

I've never seen a winter-kill like this before, but after last years drought, much of the water that was left between Oct ~ Nov when the turtles went down for hibernation was pretty stagnant and fetid.

That's an awesome Blanding's, btw. Great picture.
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Antonsrkn
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Re: Turtle Icicles

Post by Antonsrkn »

Great info, I'm glad these turtles have a chance. Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences with this sort of thing. It really is an interesting phenomenon and I would love to know more about it. I knew of kill events like this happening but its scary with slower growing species with a high juvenile/nest mortality like these turtles.

One thing I didn't say but is worth mentioning is that I walked around the edges of several other bodies of water and didn't see any turtles in the rest of them. This could be due to the fact that I just missed seeing the turtles but they were still there, or perhaps since they were also (slightly) larger bodies of water the temperature hadn't fluctuated as much. The largest bit of marsh was alive with the sound of frog calls while at the one where I found the turtles I didn't hear so much as a peep.

It is really sad that this strange spring may kill off a bunch of turtles, with heavy nest predation like many populations seem to be experiencing I wonder how long it will take them to come back from it?

Tim, that is a ridiculous amount of dead turtles, I would think that a loss of that magnitude would strain even a healthy population since I would assume that for every shell you saw there were probably others that you missed. I was concerned about predators as well (mainly raccoons but also foxes and even things like crows) the turtles are just such sitting targets in this state but I didn't see any evidence of any so far.
I know the painted and snappers will bounce back in a few years, but to think losing even a small percentage of the adult Blanding's around here would be a pretty devastating blow..
Yeah, I know how rare they are in N. Illinois and a spring like this could be devastating, luckily the area I was in has a good population and I see blandings there frequently, I hope that will still be the case in the future.

I'm itching to get back out there, but I'm a little scared of what I will find.
That's an awesome Blanding's, btw. Great picture.
Thanks I was shocked to realize that I don't have any recent photos of them, something I will have to change. They can be a little frustrating to photograph but they're worth it, over time they have become a favorite of mine.
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