Snake Fungal Disease

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regalringneck
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by regalringneck »

... i think if i was jimoo, id tap-out or peace-out :?
A very wise, if simple, admonition; "As always, your behavior is your choice."
Related to this thread; i for one have always been dubious about the long standing conclusion that captive torts unleashed the URD syndrome in our desert torts, anyone know if this is a problem w/ tx or florida gopherus?
jimoo742
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by jimoo742 »

You're a troll. A bad troll.

There is evidence of global warming. There isn't a smoking gun that it is man made. You know that. Yet the scientific community overwhelmingly knows that the climate change in caused by man's activities. Yet there is not "evidence" by your twisted trollish standards (it is a hypothesis with very widespread support and has failed to be rejected). If you weren't a troll, and were consistent, you would claim that they hypothesis that current climate change is an "accusation" against the fossil fuel industry because it doesn't have direct "evidence" or a "smoking gun".

Once again though, you twist my statement (I never said there wasn't evidence of global warming/climate change, not once). You create a false strawman, saying I made an argument I NEVER MADE (i.e. LYING about what I said) and then try to discredit and argument I never made to promote your trollish ways.

Apologize for your lying, misrepresenting scumbag comments or GO AWAY TROLL. You really should be banned.
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by jimoo742 »

regalringneck wrote:... i think if i was jimoo, id tap-out or peace-out :?

I will now, but I have little patience for lying, disingenuous, scumbag trolls
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

Wait..what?
A hypothesis is any idea on how something may occur that may or may not be correct until *validated by evidence* or disproven. To be a valid hypothesis it must be a testable explanation for the given phenomenon in question. It asks the question, "Is it possible that this occurs because of [blank]?"

Researchers or cavers possibly being the vectors spreading various fungi is a valid hypothesis, sure. Is it less likely hypothesis than the bats themselves being transporters? absolutely. Is water movement or other natural factors better likely suspects for chytrid fungus than dried out equipment? Sure. But can we rule out humans transporting spores during contact? No.

You can call them accusations, unfounded implications or rumors or whatever, and it still doesn't matter how far fetched it is, that does not disqualify something from being a valid hypothesis until it has been disproven.

Trust me, I do not like the "cavers as the white nose syndrome transport vector hypothesis", because I am a caver and it closes caves. I think the bats themselves are much more likely candidates for how it is spreading, especially since studies now show some caves that were always closed to spelunking or have been for years have now been identified as being infected. Does this definitively rule out humans as a causal factor? Unfortunately no, it doesn't, so knee jerk reaction cave closures and restrictions are still in place based solely on an *unverified* hypothesis. I work with biologists every year looking for it and it certainly panics folks who manage caves.

True statements:
biologists are suspected of transporting chytrid fungus to remote locations not in contact with infected ones.
Herpers are now suspected as a possible contamination source for Snake fungal Disease.
Cavers and Speleologists are suggested as a possible vector for the spread of White Nose Fungus.

Have any of the above true statements been *tested to be accurate with the data at hand?* Not to my knowledge. Have any of them been disproven? Not to my knowledge either.

I sympathize with both sides of this argument if I even understood it correctly:
Yes they are all valid hypotheses. Regardless of how reasonable they are or are not or if there are better competing hypotheses or even multi-causality for spreading these diseases in effect here.

It may be prudent to disinfect equipment of any kind while working with wild animals or their immediate habitat. Is that fear mongering and spreading a meme virus of its own? Perhaps. Could it hurt to take extra precautions? Hardly.

Yes people are pointing fingers at other people without a shred of evidence or little evidence indeed to support the claims. This is frustrating to say the least especially when policy and restrictions start being written without evidence to support the claims.

But if you look at the case of Whirling Disease in fish, humans are definitely the major spreaders of this disease to non-infected populations. There is some precedence with humans being the vectors in wildlife populations. I understand biologists, recreationalists, wildlife managers, etc. getting concerned and implementing protocols for prevention, and I also think that panic can spread faster than the actual disease especially if its causes and vectors are not known or well understood. Hey, I am looking at bats captured in mist nets every summer for White Nose fungus several hundred miles from the nearest outbreak and listening to the cave managers and grottos tick off their grim lists of closures in a state that hasn't had a single case reported.

We need better science on the matter to know how to combat the spread of fungal diseases, but we can't just do nothing in the meantime either. So what can we do besides err on the side of caution?


*edited to change the terminology for "proven" and "unproven", to mean validated based on the evidence to date, and untested or unverified. this isn't a court of law, science doesn't prove things it disproves or validates a hypothesis in any given test.*
jimoo742
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by jimoo742 »

Jeremy Westerman wrote: So what can we do besides err on the side of caution?

We can also when we're having discussions, or trying to, to not take every hypothesis as we don't like as a personal attack and refer to it with words like - malicious rumor mongering, or accusation
Jeremy Westerman wrote:unproven hypothesis
I know what you mean, but I still dislike this phrase. A hypothesis, at least how I was taught, is never proven.
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regalringneck
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by regalringneck »

Jimoo, channel that fountain energy into something + for you or better yet someone else, mebbe ck out this cool video when you have time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLgJ7pk0X-s

Gerry has Phd in science, & in biology mind you. You (and most folks) really havent a clue what goes into that, its akin to going into the "cage" w/ a master MMA fighter ... you're prolly not going to win!
We are very fortunate to have such power-thinkers willing to participate & post here, you & others similarly occasionally threatened by these few, devalue this forum when you choose to do txt-battle on it with them, because all too often, they wont participate after such unseemly behavior. They quietly go away & a bunch of us, (who were here on herp forums long before most were) are deprived of that furthur opportunity to learn :{ & generally, we learn more (a good thing) if we listen to these rare people, rather than type LOUDLY @ them ... if we're interested in learning about herps & other living things ... i appreciate you giving this time to resonate before you respond and wish you well. John Gunn
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

jimoo742 wrote:
Jeremy Westerman wrote:unproven hypothesis
I know what you mean, but I still dislike this phrase. A hypothesis, at least how I was taught, is never proven.
I suppose you are right lol. A hypothesis always has the chance it can be disproven by new data. That is what we call science.
I should have worded it differently in the case of humans with fungi spores as a possible vector issue as an untested hypothesis. A hypothesis can have much data that supports its claim and none so far that disproves it (that is what I meant incorrectly by proven.) I am glad it was understood what was meant. That is to say a hypothesis can be disproven but can never be "proven" definitively which is why we call the well tested and verified scientific method results of many validated hypotheses as scientific theories instead of absolute unquestionable facts, even if all the data suggests that that is indeed how it works in the real world and can be thought of as a fact and supports such a technically unscientific (due to terminology) albeit realistic claim.
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by jimoo742 »

regalringneck wrote:

Gerry has Phd in science, & in biology mind you. You (and most folks) really havent a clue what goes into that, its akin to going into the "cage" w/ a master MMA fighter ... you're prolly not going to win!

What makes you think that I don't have a clue that went into that? Where the heck did you get that? While I decided a Ph.D. wasn't for me, I have a notion of what it takes to get one having worked in academia for about 10 years after my masters (a fair amount of the time helping Masters and Ph.D. students navigate the system). Believe me, there is no shortage of Ph.D.s that are horrible people or that are just plain wrong. He's a troll, a poor debater, and just an ahole. A sheepskin doesn't change that. They're a dime a dozen really. Lots of unemployed Ph.D.s around, lets not hold them up on a pedestal. Heck, most of the consultants we employ (or the people we hire subcontract out to) are Ph.D.s in the sciences, they often don't do good scientific work, unfortunately.

By the way, I "won" by him having to lie about what I said in order to discredit it. I wasn't threatened by him, I was offended by his lying scumbag ways and his horrible, incorrect statements that do all of us an injustice. Power thinker my ass. If you want to "learn" from him, go ahead, but much of what he said here is just wrong. But hey, go ahead and kiss his ass and stroke his ego if you want. And by the way, before you comment, you might want to re-read the thread and notice he started with the "unseemly" behavior through his attacks and misstatements.
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gbin
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by gbin »

I see you're still having your tantrum, eh, jimoo? That's ok, you just go ahead and scream and cry yourself out. Post again and again how I'm a "lying scumbag," "troll," etc. who just won't stop attacking you. Heck, you can even follow me from thread to thread doing so if that helps you feel better; you certainly wouldn't be the first here to behave so childishly and duplicitously. Unfortunately for you, though, even if you edit your posts, enough of what you've said has already been captured in quotes and of course all that I've said will remain to show anyone interested what has actually been transpiring here: One fellow acted wrongly by accusing others without evidence (a fairly common mistake for people to make), and then indulged in increasingly worse behavior rather than accepting responsibility for his action (another fairly common mistake for people to make) when he was called on it by another fellow. Your vitriol might be a bit on the heavy side, I suppose, but otherwise this is a very common scene to play out on an internet message board. Yeah, I know it's awfully mundane when put this way, but I'm afraid that's all that happened and that's what the record shows. None of your dishonest, mad-dog rhetoric can change it into a case of poor, innocent you being victimized by me, the terrible troll, except maybe in your own mind.

It'd be nice if you could find some way to control yourself at least enough, though, to avoid extending your outbursts to others for attempting to make peace and move the discussion along in more productive directions. John meant only good to you, me and anyone else still following along despite your childish behavior, and you make yourself look especially bad by attacking him. Maybe this advice is as pointless as the rest I and others have offered you in this thread, though; do you still have any self-control? I tell you what, why don't you take a look and see? Maybe you'll find you have an untapped reserve.

Jeremy, look again at what jimoo posted that began this discussion:
jimoo742 wrote:... I certainly know that spelunkers and researchers have been fingered in the spread of white nose fungus in bat hibernacula...
Although a related hypothesis could be stated (which you more or less did in your post), what jimoo said is not an hypothesis, let alone a valid scientific hypothesis. It is in actuality nothing grander than it was quickly shown to be, a hearsay accusation against groups of people that jimoo brought here without so much as a shred of supporting evidence. It is malicious rumor-mongering.

Even if you erroneously choose to accept such a statement as jimoo made as a proper hypothesis, in fact even if you were right about it being one, that still doesn't change its accusatory nature, nor the fact that there is no support available for the accusation. I'm sure you realize that a person with a better grasp of scientific language and/or more self-control than jimoo could state all kinds of unsupported accusations as tidy, formal hypotheses if s/he were so inclined. (I'm biting my tongue to keep from offering you a few choice examples at jimoo's expense to prove the point ;) , but jimoo's already raging out of control and I don't want him to hurt himself any more than he's already doing.) The behavior is still wrong. As I said much earlier:
gbin wrote:... Talk about potential if you think it seems all that great (even if it's not really), sure, and talk about taking precautions in any event. Investigate to find out whether there's more than just potential involved, too, by all means. Those are all fine ideas. But they're simply not the same as suggesting/declaring (which differ only in degree, not fundamental nature) that some group of people is actually responsible for some problem that's occurred just because you heard or think they might be.
And:
gbin wrote:... Taking precautions and urging others to do so to avoid (accidental or intentional) wrongdoing is a good thing. Keeping a watchful eye toward others for signs of wrongdoing is a good thing. Even actually fingering someone for wrongdoing is a good thing - when there's evidence to back it up.
Simply put, unsupported accusations such as jimoo made (or passed on) are unfair to those accused. As I also pointed out, the currently popular practice of blaming science/scientists for things (almost always wrongly, by the way) also carries real potential for sociopolitical harm.

But potential for harm or no, if there's evidence to support the charge then I'm ok with the charge being made. I already made this clear, too, not least when I said to jimoo:
gbin wrote:That's the crux of the matter, all right. With real evidence it's not at all the same thing as malicious rumor-mongering, just as you said. And without real evidence it is just malicious rumor-mongering, just as I said. So let's see your evidence, or let's knock it off with the unsubstantiated accusations.
I know that humans cause all kinds of harm to the world around us, and I feel sure that scientists have done so before in the course of their professional pursuits as well as just as humans. I understand the potential for field biologists to serve as vectors of wildlife disease, and I've said so on many occasions and in many ways. This isn't about "Thou Shalt Not Criticize Scientists" or whatever other nonsense someone such as jimoo might dishonestly represent it to be. It's about not accusing or repeating accusations against people/professions without evidence, and about being mindful that treating scientists/science this way has greater ramifications than just unfairness. I don't believe Scott established these message boards for the purpose of us maligning people/professions not present (nor even each other, for that matter). If we're going to come up with or repeat something negative about someone or some profession, we should at least be prepared to back it up with some evidence. Despite all of jimoo's hysterics, the issue really is as simple as that.

By the way, in considering scientific hypotheses, I'd suggest that you entirely drop the notion and language of prove/disprove. Folks in the hardest of sciences might have the luxury of such terminology, but not so us in the biological sciences. We live in the same messy world as do most scientists, where experiments are actually expected to produce at least somewhat different results each time they're run. We accordingly don't try to prove or disprove anything, but instead aim to obtain evidence which supports, fails to support or refutes our hypotheses - and we anticipate that a decent amount of work will often result in all three kinds of evidence, requiring us to weigh them on a mental balance to guide us in deciding where we should put the bulk of our belief and subsequent effort (bearing in mind that as new evidence becomes available the balance could actually tip another way). Just a friendly word of advice. :beer:

Ok, I'm sure jimoo has more really important stuff that he wants to say now. :roll: jimoo?...

Gerry

P.S. It occurs to me, jimoo, that your goal in persisting with this nonsense is to persuade Scott to move the thread over to the Board Line, where I suppose you can reasonably hope that fewer people will see it. You'll probably "win" (which I recognize is vitally important to you) in that way, at least. Congratulations, I guess... :roll:
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

Interesting that you saw something so different Gerry. I actually took jimoo742's original comment about cavers being "fingered" to mean that cavers were being implicated as a possible cause of white nose fungus spreading. I saw it as a neutral statement as to his actual opinion, or even possibly implying that he was against that because "fingering" is slightly negative as far as terms go. I don't believe he actually stated his opinion on the matter. Is he repeating unsubstantiated hearsay? Sure, but so are all the professional bat biologists, cavers, Speleologists and Natural Resource managers who work with this issue. I did not take it as He personally was the one accusing the cavers, just that he was mentioning that this was the case. Just like I did in my true statements section. This HAS happened, the information he reported is correct. I thought he was just expressing this sentiment in the common vernacular.

But like I said no one has verified (that I am aware of) that cavers do indeed spread the fungus, and it seems that the bats spread it themselves just fine which can be inferred logically from the caves that were clean and closed to cavers but still had it show up later.
The logic behind humans being the transfer vectors for fungi spreading, however far fetched or reasonable as it may be is still valid until disproven (refuted.)

I really liked your neutral scientific result: evidence that neither supports nor refutes. I don't know why I didn't think of that, Overeager experimenter bias I guess. Your terminology is certainly superior: Supports, fails to support, and refutes vs. validated, verified, confirmed, proved, unproven, disproved, etc. but I think we are all agreeing on the same meanings here.
Now as far as the " unfounded accusations" (that can be stated as valid hypotheses ironically) go, I say prove it! To the scientists who came forth with such an idea in the first place. Hahaha. I think that policy based on untested ideas with little to no evidence is not scientific and a little preposterous.

Do we know that humans spread White nose Fungus, Snake Fungal Disease, or Chytrid Fungus by contact and transporting gear? No...but is it a realistic enough possibility that we must begrudgingly concede? Yes... until it can be refuted (disproved) or another means of how it is spreading is identified and confirmed by evidence.

I think we all agree that the possibility however remote is enough to warrant precautions like disinfecting our gear and equipment for whatever activity, but I hate to see restrictions, laws and penalties (or even just biased accusations for that matter) in place not based on hard science and evidence.

I think the original poster and all who have followed or posted are on the same page: concern for the animals health in question; be they bats, amphibians, snakes or whatever. The intent was awareness of the issue and to promote precaution. If we are arguing or discussing about something else let me know that I am clueless.
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jonathan
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by jonathan »

:thumb:
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

dang it Jonathan, I was still tweeking my grammar and spelling (which sucks) when you posted that smiley thumbs up! Oh well, guess that is my own fault for not using the preview function.
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gbin
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by gbin »

Jeremy Westerman wrote:Interesting that you saw something so different Gerry. I actually took jimoo742's original comment about cavers being "fingered" to mean that cavers were being implicated as a possible cause of white nose fungus spreading...
I guess what's really interesting is that you saw something so different, Jeremy. I'm a rather literal person, tending to take others at their words and what those words actually mean - especially when they fit the context well, as jimoo's words did in this instance. And I rely on dictionaries whenever I'm uncertain about a word. I didn't need to in this instance, but for your sake, here's the relevant definition from Merriam Webster:
  • FINGER transitive verb: to point out: IDENTIFY
Scanning a number of dictionaries will give you more of the flavor of the word, too, showing that it's used for identifying a wrongdoer (as in a crime). Nothing I can find says anything about the word meaning anything like "implicated as a possible cause" nor treats it as only "slightly" negative.

And even if you were right in your interpretation, don't people have an obligation to look into implications about other people's/professions' possible wrongdoing before blithely repeating such? And shouldn't there be some kind of real support somewhere for it? Or should jimoo or whoever else feel free to spread whatever malicious rumors they feel like just because they managed to find someone somewhere who implicated some people/profession as a possible cause for something bad?

I maintain that accusations against others shouldn't be made/repeated lightly nor without supporting evidence available, however those accusations might be stated.
Jeremy Westerman wrote:... I don't believe he actually stated his opinion on the matter...
Right, just as the folks on Fox News often stop short of expressing their opinions when they start in with their "Some people say..." nonsense. The simple truth of the matter is that jimoo brought the accusation without support here, and has ownership of his wrongful act (whether he accepts it or not).
Jeremy Westerman wrote:... Is he repeating unsubstantiated hearsay? Sure, but so are all the professional bat biologists, cavers, Speleologists and Natural Resource managers who work with this issue...
First, there's no way that I believe all of these people are doing that; I don't even know that a majority are behaving so, but I feel sure that at the very least many of them are behaving far more fairly. I strongly recommend against using such hyperbole or accepting it from others.

Second, as I'm sure you learned as a very young child, "two wrongs [or 20, or 200...] don't make a right." jimoo remains responsible for jimoo's behavior.
Jeremy Westerman wrote:... I think we are all agreeing on the same meanings here.
Perhaps, and perhaps not. Terminology/word choice matters, and confusion is almost sure to result somewhere along the line when people are careless about it. This is true in both the scientific and the popular realm.
Jeremy Westerman wrote:I think the original poster and all who have followed or posted are on the same page: concern for the animals health in question; be they bats, amphibians, snakes or whatever. The intent was awareness of the issue and to promote precaution...
I agree - or at least I did until jimoo decided to wage his foolish war against me for criticizing his wrongful act.

The thing is: making/repeating unsupported accusations against people/professions isn't at all necessary to this intent, and in fact it could reasonably be argued that it distracts from it. Certainly jimoo has lost his way, despite a number of folks' effort to bring him back around. I'm sure you're aware, too, that one of the reasons people like to use scapegoats for problems is to enable them to pretend they have no responsibility toward solving the problems ("They broke it, so they should fix it!") Urge precautions? Absolutely. Examine possibilities, even uncomfortable ones? Sure, if they seem plausible. Make/repeat accusations? Not unless there is actually evidence to support them, and even then preferably only with care.

If only everyone would make more use of the preview function, and I don't mean just for grammar and spelling... ;)

Gerry
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by EVILMORPHGOD »

DracoRJC wrote:For those who have not heard, SFD is a serious disease showing up in many snake species across the United States. In Virginia, I have seen possible cases in brown and northern water snakes, black racers, garter snakes, and cottonmouths. The below picture was from this past weekend during a Virginia Herpetological Society survey in VA Beach. I have seen it in around a quarter of the snakes I encounter at that particular area, and this was the worst case yet, with the eye swollen to the point that it is barely recognizable as such. It is believed to be spread through physical contact, possibly through infected equipment used by herpers across the country.

Image

The link below has more information. Spread the word, not the disease!

http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_inform ... isease.jsp

Ryan
The DISEASE is NOT being spread in this MANNER!!!! No WAY!!!!

PERIOD!


I have been watching it since early 2003 when I first saw a bit of it and then decided in 2005 it was a problem. I have been sounding the ALARM ever since and only now does it seem to stick. It is in the ENVIRONMENT.... it is there waiting to infect snakes.

Sterilizing your equipment sounds fine and all but will do nothing to help these snakes.


Kevin
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kricket
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by kricket »

Well, since someone else bumped this topic back up, here are some important facts about the three fungal diseases discussed in this thread. I've included citations in case anyone wants to have a look at the papers where I found my information.

1. Someone mentioned that chytrids cannot live in dry conditions. That is incorrect. Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis can live encysted in dry, sterile conditions for at least three months [1]. Therefore they can be spread on equipment, such as any dirt in the cracks of your boots. So if you're worried about spreading chytrids, focus on cleaning all the dirt off your boots and disinfecting them.

2. The hypothesis with the most evidence is that Geomyces destructans (the fungus that causes WNS) originated in Europe, where it infects bats but does not cause mass mortality. Since bats do not migrate across the Atlantic ocean, there is a high probability that it was spread by humans in some way, either through the accidental introduction of another species that is a carrier, or from soil transported into caves (Geomyces sp. are commonly found in soil) [2,3]. There is some evidence that the fungus is increasing in prevalence in Europe, but the bats are still able to recover from the infection [4], unlike the many species here. :(

3. And now for the snakes! The Chrysosporium sp. that is infecting wild snakes was originally found in separate populations that do not interact [5]. Since this fungus is present in soil, it is entirely possible that this is something that was always extant in the environment and is only now opportunistically infecting snakes. It has been widely cited that Chrysosporium ophiodiicola originated in a captive snake, implicating the pet trade. However, the snake that this fungus was originally isolated from was a wild snake that was taken in and used in wildlife education, so he was being moved around a lot, giving plenty of opportunity for infection from the wild [6]. (On a side note, there is a really interesting article examining the effects of inbreeding depression on isolated timber rattlesnake populations and how it may be leading to greater susceptibility to these opportunistic infections [7].) Unfortunately, Chrysosporium ophiodiicola isn't the only opportunistic fungus found to be infecting wild snakes in the US and one study found four different fungi that may have been involved in severe skin lesions in multiple species of snakes [8]. There needs to be a more studies done before we can come to any conclusions about infection routes or definitively establish how these diseases are being spread in snake populations.

So the bottom line is that humans can spread these fungal diseases because they are all capable of living in the soil and we all know how much soil you can drag around from place to place in your boots! It is unlikely that snake fungal diseases are being spread through the herp trade, unless someone is practicing excessively poor management (like collecting a snake from the wild, then immediately shipping it somewhere else and then that person releasing it into the wild again, all before any symptoms show up). So focus on cleaning your boots and if you find a diseased snake, immediately report it to your local DNR so it can be tested.

Hope this helped clear up any misconceptions and please feel free to ask me to clarify if I wrote anything confusing! :)

[1] The ecology and impact of chytridiomycosis: an emerging disease of amphibians

[2] White-nose syndrome fungus (Geomyces destructans) in bats, Europe

[3] Pan-European Distribution of White-Nose Syndrome Fungus (Geomyces destructans) Not Associated with Mass Mortality

[4] Increasing Incidence of Geomyces destructans Fungus in Bats from the Czech Republic and Slovakia

[5] Chrysosporium sp. infection in eastern massasauga rattlesnakes

[6] Isolation and Characterization of a New Fungal Species, Chrysosporium ophiodiicola, from a Mycotic Granuloma of a Black Rat Snake (Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta)

[7] Decline of an isolated timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus) population: Interactions between climate change, disease, and loss of genetic diversity (paywall, PM me if you want a copy)

[8] An outbreak of fungal dermatitis and stomatitis in a free-ranging population of pigmy rattlesnakes (Sistrurus miliarium barbouri) in Florida
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by chris_mcmartin »

kricket wrote:So the bottom line is that humans can spread these fungal diseases because they are all capable of living in the soil and we all know how much soil you can drag around from place to place in your boots!
An important distinction to make: it's humans, not just herpers. I'd estimate the percentage of field herpers who practice good equipment hygiene (to include clothing) is increasing...now if we can just get that pesky "general public" to follow suit...

8-)
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by Kelly Mc »

kricket wrote:Well, since someone else bumped this topic back up, here are some important facts about the three fungal diseases discussed in this thread. I've included citations in case anyone wants to have a look at the papers where I found my information.

1. Someone mentioned that chytrids cannot live in dry conditions. That is incorrect. Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis can live encysted in dry, sterile conditions for at least three months [1]. Therefore they can be spread on equipment, such as any dirt in the cracks of your boots. So if you're worried about spreading chytrids, focus on cleaning all the dirt off your boots and disinfecting them.

2. The hypothesis with the most evidence is that Geomyces destructans (the fungus that causes WNS) originated in Europe, where it infects bats but does not cause mass mortality. Since bats do not migrate across the Atlantic ocean, there is a high probability that it was spread by humans in some way, either through the accidental introduction of another species that is a carrier, or from soil transported into caves (Geomyces sp. are commonly found in soil) [2,3]. There is some evidence that the fungus is increasing in prevalence in Europe, but the bats are still able to recover from the infection [4], unlike the many species here. :(

3. And now for the snakes! The Chrysosporium sp. that is infecting wild snakes was originally found in separate populations that do not interact [5]. Since this fungus is present in soil, it is entirely possible that this is something that was always extant in the environment and is only now opportunistically infecting snakes. It has been widely cited that Chrysosporium ophiodiicola originated in a captive snake, implicating the pet trade. However, the snake that this fungus was originally isolated from was a wild snake that was taken in and used in wildlife education, so he was being moved around a lot, giving plenty of opportunity for infection from the wild [6]. (On a side note, there is a really interesting article examining the effects of inbreeding depression on isolated timber rattlesnake populations and how it may be leading to greater susceptibility to these opportunistic infections [7].) Unfortunately, Chrysosporium ophiodiicola isn't the only opportunistic fungus found to be infecting wild snakes in the US and one study found four different fungi that may have been involved in severe skin lesions in multiple species of snakes [8]. There needs to be a more studies done before we can come to any conclusions about infection routes or definitively establish how these diseases are being spread in snake populations.

So the bottom line is that humans can spread these fungal diseases because they are all capable of living in the soil and we all know how much soil you can drag around from place to place in your boots! It is unlikely that snake fungal diseases are being spread through the herp trade, unless someone is practicing excessively poor management (like collecting a snake from the wild, then immediately shipping it somewhere else and then that person releasing it into the wild again, all before any symptoms show up). So focus on cleaning your boots and if you find a diseased snake, immediately report it to your local DNR so it can be tested.

Hope this helped clear up any misconceptions and please feel free to ask me to clarify if I wrote anything confusing! :)

[1] The ecology and impact of chytridiomycosis: an emerging disease of amphibians

[2] White-nose syndrome fungus (Geomyces destructans) in bats, Europe

[3] Pan-European Distribution of White-Nose Syndrome Fungus (Geomyces destructans) Not Associated with Mass Mortality

[4] Increasing Incidence of Geomyces destructans Fungus in Bats from the Czech Republic and Slovakia

[5] Chrysosporium sp. infection in eastern massasauga rattlesnakes

[6] Isolation and Characterization of a New Fungal Species, Chrysosporium ophiodiicola, from a Mycotic Granuloma of a Black Rat Snake (Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta)

[7] Decline of an isolated timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus) population: Interactions between climate change, disease, and loss of genetic diversity (paywall, PM me if you want a copy)

[8] An outbreak of fungal dermatitis and stomatitis in a free-ranging population of pigmy rattlesnakes (Sistrurus miliarium barbouri) in Florida

Thanks kricket!
EVILMORPHGOD
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by EVILMORPHGOD »

Forgive this random disorganized view... I will not bother to collect my thoughts since this may not interest many. Most of what I am saying is specific to Timbers but the Fungus seems to attack all snakes in the Northeast.

I have a great deal of time and energy invested on this NIGHTMARE.... you could say I have invested more time over the years on this (Well, also James C) than ANYONE and know more about it than anyone (along with James C).

This is not being spread around because of equipment. This is more like an opportunistic Fungus that is there/here..... may have been there/here for some time but "things/conditions" may have improved for it and allowed it to expand its abilities.

Most likely warming trends, shading over, wetter hibernaculums, condensed numbers within hibernacula ( meaning we are limiting the range of these animals as we continue to encroach - we force them to use a limited number of dens where in the past they may have used several), snow melt ( less snow on den areas...more rain, water).

A simple idea........... and I am rather steadfast on WHY snakes in the NorthEast are suffering.

The snake returns to it's hibernaculum...... the Fungus is waiting, still active and reproductive(the fungus) attacks snakes as they enter. As the Fungus attacks the snake the snake's immune system is starting to shut down... = depressed immune response. At some point (let's call it 50F) the Fungus is no longer reproductive and the snake has no/very little immune response. The infected snake now has a well started infection going as it starts to hibernate. It may never go fully down as it "knows" it is sick and may die. So, this snake may stay closer to the surface of the den and react to temperature fluctuations above... as it does this it also allows the fungus to continue to grow and reproduce, essentially allowing a very tricky balance as the animal is desperate to bask and allow some immune response to occur. As it tries to deal with the Fungus it is allowing the Fungus to further infect it. Some of the animals that went down "fully" sit cold and wait out the cold and infection.... Some of these die and others live but surface in the Spring(sometimes very early) to show signs of the disease.

- So, the den is PERFECT for the Fungus - Chrysosporium to THRIVE, Reproduce and attack living refrigerated pieces of meat.
- There is a heavy concentration of Fungus in the dens "waiting" to attack snakes as they enter.
- The fungus does well with possibly wetter dens and higher humidity - let's face it many dens/basking spots are shading over.
- If the ground temp are warmer.... like we have seen since 1996 (ten hottest consecutive years on record) the fungus may be active when snakes enter crevices where before it was cooler and the Fungus was LESS active & LESS evident. Let's say it used to be around 52F on average as they entered and it is now let's say 56F (temps are just used as examples.... not sure what temps may be exactly...but using as a point). The fungus may have generally been dormant at 52F and it is active at 56F...... now the snakes are returning to a situation that used to be tolerable and is NOW DEADLY.
- Snakes exit the den with sores but went in looking clean - I feel VERY confident that they get it in the den.... witnessed this over and over.
- Snakes can not bask and kill the Fungus. They can bask and activate their immune system but can never kill the Fungus 100%. It's kill temperature is higher than what the snake can tolerate without dying.
- Snakes will come out in the winter as an example when it's 40F and barely any sun to bask... this is NOT normal in any shape or form. A healthy hibernating snake(Timber) does NOT do this and does not react to surface temperature fluctuations pre emergence unless it has PROBLEMS.
- Snakes spend time basking and shedding(consecutive sheds as they try to heal) instead of hunting and breeding.
- It is likely an infected snake can be with a healthy snake and not infect the healthy snake, why? Because the healthy snake has an active immune system and can tolerate the Fungus... it all changes when the snake cools down and is subjected to Fungus, wetness and cold.
- A snake that tries to hibernate close to the surface is playing a very dangerous game.... it can very easily get caught by the cold temperatures and die.
- Snakes can be found around the dens in the Fall as they LINGER..... they are already infected (most likely from past years stint in the den)..... Since they were unable to rid themselves of the Fungus they are suffering and try to spend the least amount of time in the den and do their best to bask. This is NOT normal and many snakes are seen with sores, skinny, cloudy eyes, granulomas and other evidence of poor health.
- Larger snakes have more body mass and may "deal with it" longer as they struggle to fight it off. Small snakes have smaller body mass and less fortitude to deal with the Fungus and often DIE quick.
- You may see snakes with scarring...clear evidence of the Disease(not to be mistaken for the occasional injured snake)..... they may heal in many cases as they have struggled to deal with it. Over time many of these snakes lose the fight and eventually die.... many snakes may survive for years and then suddenly VANISH = THis often means they have DIED.
- This is not from Rodents nibbling them in the dens or frost bite...... this is from a VERY NASTY Fungus that eats their tissue while they SLEEP.
- Sick females that emerge in the Spring and have not yet ovulated will tend to bask at higher temps and prematurely ovulate due to the higher temps and luteinizing hormone balance. The resulting effort yields "slugs" since they follicles were never mature and premature ovulation occurred.
- This is NOT due to inbreeding or genetic depression...... if it was it would have happened very differently.
- I have lots more to say but i don't want to bore you.

The Fungus is there in the Environment....... The Fungus may be evolving or expanding its host base, i don't know...but it is there. You may find it in a spot that no person has even been to..... it found the snakes...... Some of the areas where you may not see it have very sunny exposed rock slide dens...they are Drier and offer better basking.

This disease kills snakes..... just like other Fungus are killing bats...... I have watched it DESTROY snakes for years.........

I ran around with my friend studying it and have tried to draw attention to it..... its been over 8 years and people are just starting to take notice... a very sad thing here is that they are way behind and we have lost snakes, time and hope.

Rather sad when some of our "experts" are absolutely CLUELESS...................... shocking..... but many of them hold the power to "save" these species but instead squander the opportunity and quietly allow the snakes to ALL DIE!

Ok, back to tool disinfecting chatter! If we don't carry hooks or tongs...should we disinfect our walking sticks?


Kevin
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by kricket »

Kevin, I agree with most of what you're saying here. Considering that geomycosis is the result of a fungus taking advantage of a downgraded immune system in hibernating bats, it makes perfect sense that the same thing would happen with fungal pathogens in snakes. This is something that definitely needs to be studied in order to determine the exact mechanisms involved. You mentioned investing a lot of time and energy on the problem - are you a biologist studying this? I would be interested in knowing more about what you've been doing.

I do disagree about the possibility of inbreeding adding to the problem. It has been established that inbreeding does lead to increased susceptibility to disease. It may not be involved, but we won't know until that hypothesis is tested. Either way, genetic analysis of the rattlesnake population should be done in order to see if certain genotypes are more susceptible to the disease than others. I agree that changing microclimates in hibernacula and increased contact between snakes due to loss of habitat are probably exacerbating the problem as well. All aspects of disease transmission and pathology should be looked at.

I'm not sure what "experts" you're referring to that are ignoring the problem. Do you mean herpetologists, the government, herpers in general? Fungal infections have been a known problem in the herpetology community for a decade now. It's not that people don't care - it's that we need funding to study the problem. It costs a lot of time and money to comprehensively study an emerging infectious disease.

I understand that you're frustrated that it seems people are just talking about washing their equipment. Washing equipment certainly isn't going to solve the problem. However, these pathogens can be spread through soil, so it's better to be safe than sorry. Washing equipment also helps prevent other pathogens from spreading, as well as preventing the spread of invasive plants whose seeds get stuck to pants and boots (invasive plants are a big problem and negatively affecting the habitat of the snakes I study). It's not as if people on this thread are dithering away about washing things when they could be out saving rattlesnakes instead. They don't have the power to save them. At this point NO ONE does because no one has the information needed to save them.
EVILMORPHGOD
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by EVILMORPHGOD »

OHHH I THINK I MAY SCREAM.... I just somehow lost my long response....... I had to redo it... Grr.......


I am not a Biologist...... I walk, talk breathe reptiles....SNAKES are my thing..... If I am not a snake "expert" then there are none. I own NERD.


As far as inbreeding...... this is not the cause here, I understand genetics and how some are more prone to a disease than others. In this case I have seen it in well rounded populations as well as small dying populations. It is also taking down Garters, Racers, Ratsnakes, Milksnakes, Waters, Ribbons, Ringnecks and such....... I think it may even be attacking Bog Turtles!!! Surely these can not all be inbred too?

No, inbreeding is not the big worry here......... don't focus on that....... it will take genetically rounded snakes as well as clones.

When I first saw the disease.... I thought ok, hibernation sores...they will shed off. After a few years of seeing it on and off I started to think the snakes with the sores did not look all that healthy.... they looked wrong. Then I watched my favorite pop show signs...... I knew it was Fungus since I have seen Fungus on captive snakes that encountered husbandry issues in captivity. It looked similar enough for me to know it was Fungus with a possible secondary bacterial. SO, as I saw it and watched snakes suffer and get worse I sounded off to any expert I could find..... FAIL. It was hibernation sores.... they have been seeing it since the 60's..... no big deal. I was like..... NO, this is killing snakes.,..... they said the snakes would shed it off. Well, the didn't..... they generally got worse.... It's not one of those things where they shed and they are perfect. They may appear better but its there. No one seemed to care... one person listened to me... James Condon and he did not take much convincing...... He was seeing sick snakes too and it was clearly BAD.

After several years of trying to get ANYONE to take notice we were able to get a big meeting - 20+ experts and such to discuss the plight of snakes..... We voiced our worries and what we were seeing..... A BIG FAIL. It's hibernation sores, it goes away... or it's Rodents Bites...they get attacked in the den while they hibernate??? Are you kidding me? We heard show us the dead snakes......... they want to see pics of dead snakes littering the ground it appeared. We all know what sick snakes do..... they hide and then die. James and I knew the snakes were dying and the disease was evident in many populations... it just appeared the EXPERTS did not notice it ( to this day I don't understand this...I can zero in on it easily and they fail to see it). We had several snakes tested but the results were all over the place. They may have seen Fungus but the identification and such was not where it needed to be. We did not know at the time how hard it was to culture out this Fungus species.... so, these test were not exactly revealing..... as time progressed, they learned how to grow this slow growing fungus and ID it, PCR and having the exact Chrysosporium DNA helped.. also having Jeff Lorch over at the USGS doing the test was a major turning point. SO, finally a way to test for the Fungus and suddenly we were seeing all sorts of results all showing the same Culprit! Mind you...many of the experts still did not care.... show us the dead snakes..... stay out of our research areas.... (even though they had sick snakes there)...... they said that they would test them but that does not seem to be the case. Back to the meeting, it was basically a waste...we heard why it was not a problem and stay out of our places..... we know what we are doing and the snakes are fine..... We knew their snakes were not and they are DYING!

This same story has played out over the years...the snakes are fine.... all while pops are drying up...... The people that are in a position to do something are completely missing the problem.

Only until recently has this gained some ground........ I was whining about it way before the Massasaugas showed it. No one listened.... he's a snake breeder he is bad...the devil.... all that. Let's face it, the experts don' generally like REAL snake experts. So, because I said it was a problem they say it is not. LAME.

This whole thing is a giant mess...and a very long story with lots of drama...... I don't want to go into details since that does no good.

We are finally at a point where people are realizing after 8 years that there is a primary Fungus attacking snakes........ Finally, they are taking notice.

We better get moving here, enough with all this baby stepping..... the problem is MEAN and we are being out classed by a very nasty problem. The snakes are not waiting..... they are DYING!

Kevin
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by kricket »

Kevin,

Bog turtles are almost certainly inbred. They have small, isolated populations due to habitat loss. I haven't heard of them getting fungal diseases, but they are certainly having disease issues such as pneumonia. I only point out the inbreeding because this fungus seems to be capable of infecting any snake, but is having a greater impact on snakes whose populations are already suffering from population bottlenecks.

As you said, this is a difficult fungus to culture and it is only until very recently that DNA testing was available and cheap enough to do on a large scale. Even if you had brought in piles of dead snakes, it probably would have been very difficult to find out what exactly was killing them. But (important!) even now that we know it is Chrysosporium, there is still nothing we can do about it. We do not have a cure for this fungus. We rarely can find cures for fungal diseases. Fungi are very weird organisms that are difficult to control.

I'm sorry that your valid concerns were ignored. I'm still not sure who these "experts" are that you were talking to because you haven't said. I assume at least some of them were biologists since they told you to stay out of their research areas. I'm sure you're not a bad guy and you certainly seem passionately concerned with saving wild herps, but no herpetologist wants herpers in their research areas, whether you're a breeder or not. I study habitat selection in snakes and people herping in my research areas disrupts that very habitat and behavior I'm trying to research. It's incredibly frustrating to go to one of my research points and find it already herped because I know I can't use that point anymore. And I totally support field herping - of course! Just not in my research area. So please understand that there are valid reasons for people to tell you to stay out of their research areas. You are not going to win anyone's respect by making their job more difficult and if you don't have their respect, then they aren't going to listen to you.

Field herpers benefit from herpetologists being able to conduct their research without it being disrupted because the knowledged gleaned from the studies aids in knowing more about the behavior and needs of these animals. And herpetologists can benefit from the data gathered by field herpers, hence the existence of NAFHA, herp atlases and bioblitzes. I, and many other biologists, very much want to do something to stop snakes dying. We do not have the money or resources to do so. There is no cure and there may never be. So if you want to help these snakes then the most effective thing you can do is volunteer to help biologists with their field work to research the disease. We need field techs and your knowledge about snakes can be very helpful. But first you have to meet people on common ground. Don't accuse them of not being real experts or not caring and respect their research areas so that they can do their job. Complaining about it and degrading them as not being real experts and saying YOU are the "real" expert isn't going to win you fans in any group and it's not going to help snakes. We have to work together.

- Kara
EVILMORPHGOD
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by EVILMORPHGOD »

Hi,


I actually work with my local Fish and Game - Biologist and such. We are on very good terms and work together with the snakes. I am not invading other research areas...... I am not running around in "their" areas. I understand the disturbance of field herpers looking for snakes and pictures.

My point was in some places where research was/is being done snakes are SICK...they are being watched and the disease goes unnoticed/ignored. This I believe is wrong....

On Bogs..... Pneumonia could be a secondary symptom to a primary infection. Bogs have been found with rotted feet..... I was shocked to discover as of last year NONE of these animals have been tested exactly for Chrysosporium...... They had been "tested' for what killed them but not for this particular organism. I have been asking for that since 2008 when i first heard about them dying. I do not research Bogs or field observe them....but I KNOW turtles.... one pathogen can manifest itself in many different ways with turtles and show up as various ailments. Turtles suffer from depression and just stop wanting to live.... the final notable symptoms can be various. I think researchers miss this and get confused when Bogs are dying from various symptoms. I was told that this year they would sample sick/dead specimens for the Fungus..... that may prove interesting.

I am not mentioning details because I am not trying to call people out or point fingers..... just need to address the basic issues.

Please don't think I think that there is a "cure" for this Fungus......... I NEVER SAID OR THOUGHT THIS! I understand what Fungus can do.... in fact it is a perfect MONSTER!

I have hibernated SICK infected(Chrysosporium positive) snakes under captive/controlled conditions and have watched what it can do to an almost perfect looking snake...... .rather shocking. Like I said I know a fair bit about what this disease does...... I have been working with it for some time.

We need to do progressive stuff...... like prove some basic points.

Take a perfect non-infected snake and house it with an infected snake.

1. Together at optimal temps....... ( I think the healthy snake will stay healthy)
2. Together at Ingress type temps....... let's say 55F for a few weeks.
3. Together at hibernation temps.... let's say 43 - 45F.

- Then the above without water dishes... or common contamination point.
- Then the above test with various levels of humidity..... dry conditions versus wetter conditions.

This is the kind of RESEARCH we need to do................ at least we can gain answers.

Kevin
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by Kelly Mc »

EVILMORPHGOD wrote:Hi,


I actually work with my local Fish and Game - Biologist and such. We are on very good terms and work together with the snakes. I am not invading other research areas...... I am not running around in "their" areas. I understand the disturbance of field herpers looking for snakes and pictures.

My point was in some places where research was/is being done snakes are SICK...they are being watched and the disease goes unnoticed/ignored. This I believe is wrong....

On Bogs..... Pneumonia could be a secondary symptom to a primary infection. Bogs have been found with rotted feet..... I was shocked to discover as of last year NONE of these animals have been tested exactly for Chrysosporium...... They had been "tested' for what killed them but not for this particular organism. I have been asking for that since 2008 when i first heard about them dying. I do not research Bogs or field observe them....but I KNOW turtles.... one pathogen can manifest itself in many different ways with turtles and show up as various ailments. Turtles suffer from depression and just stop wanting to live.... the final notable symptoms can be various. I think researchers miss this and get confused when Bogs are dying from various symptoms. I was told that this year they would sample sick/dead specimens for the Fungus..... that may prove interesting.

I am not mentioning details because I am not trying to call people out or point fingers..... just need to address the basic issues.

Please don't think I think that there is a "cure" for this Fungus......... I NEVER SAID OR THOUGHT THIS! I understand what Fungus can do.... in fact it is a perfect MONSTER!

I have hibernated SICK infected(Chrysosporium positive) snakes under captive/controlled conditions and have watched what it can do to an almost perfect looking snake...... .rather shocking. Like I said I know a fair bit about what this disease does...... I have been working with it for some time.

We need to do progressive stuff...... like prove some basic points.

Take a perfect non-infected snake and house it with an infected snake.

1. Together at optimal temps....... ( I think the healthy snake will stay healthy)
2. Together at Ingress type temps....... let's say 55F for a few weeks.
3. Together at hibernation temps.... let's say 43 - 45F.

- Then the above without water dishes... or common contamination point.
- Then the above test with various levels of humidity..... dry conditions versus wetter conditions.

This is the kind of RESEARCH we need to do................ at least we can gain answers.

Kevin



Well I think you should do it. You have everything it takes to do such research - at your disposal.
EVILMORPHGOD
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by EVILMORPHGOD »

Yes, but we need to do it where the test will count... so, it MUST involve the PROS (their blessing and ideas)!


Kevin
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by Kelly Mc »

I have noticed fungi do flourish at temperatures lower than temps of optimum activity, in fish, amphibians, reptiles, inverts. There are many examples in aquaria culture, and in captive environments combining moisture/ lower temperatures / limited airflow. Sometimes they are not infective types but just proxy molds. But always these mycotic uglies happen in lower temps and when they are the types that make an organism sick, most often the animal is being kept at lower spectrum of tolerence temperatures.

The hibernaculum is a closed system of long contact cool temps and quieted immune function.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by Kelly Mc »

EVILMORPHGOD wrote:Yes, but we need to do it where the test will count... so, it MUST involve the PROS (their blessing and ideas)!


Kevin

maybe a new kind of inclusive and passionate alliance could be formed to explore this problem.
EVILMORPHGOD
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by EVILMORPHGOD »

Kelly,


For whatever reason all of this happens rather slowly........ it would be nice to do something that will help everyone and not some little experiment that has no value to the experts...

So it's like you have to wait for them to catch up... I'm thinking another 9 years and we will be ready to study snakes long past....


This IS the White Nose Syndrome in BATS...... just another Nasty Fungus that has found a new niche to utilize.


Fungus is on the rise... check out Zombie Fly Fungus... when I was kid growing up I never saw it and NOW....in the past ten years...it's around BIG TIME...... a very similar kind of problem for the flies but they can bask at 104 F and fend off some Fungus while snakes can not.


Kevin
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kricket
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by kricket »

Kevin, you seem to assume that no one is studying the problem. There have already been papers published about this disease, so there are people who are working on it. These sorts of things take time. Even the basics about this disease are still being worked out. Earlier this year a paper was published showing swabbing (usually the standard detection procedure for fungal diseases) isn't an effective way to test for Chrysosporium, so tissue samples are needed, which makes it logistically more difficult (and more expensive) to test snakes for the disease. I know that Matthew Allender has done some testing for Chrysosporium in timber rattlers, but the results haven't been published yet. Have you contacted the Orianne Society? They're working on conservation projects for timber rattlers. Since they already have some resources in place, maybe they would be well-placed to expand to testing for the disease.

We actually used have a room full of live timber rattlers for study at my university, but after Carl Ernst retired the whole herpetology department was basically dismantled. I think there is a whopping two people (including myself) researching herps there now! :( Also, researchers are dependent on grant money to survive and it's not easy to come by. Grant money is my only source of income (technically it's not income it's a "stipend") and it isn't much. So I live below the poverty line and as a condition of my grant I am not allowed to even take a part-time job without special permission. I've been lucky enough to get an extra grant that almost covered the cost of the equipment I need as well. Some of the studies that I've been working with people to implement have been waylaid because budget cuts means there is no money for the equipment we need. We also have permit issues to deal with, especially here in Virginia. In order to keep my research permit, I have to give a bunch of information about every herp that I touch. If I don't and then publish my results, I could get in big trouble and may not be able to do research again. I also have to go through special training since I'm working with vertebrates. If scientists were better supported financially then we could spend less time scrabbling for money and filling out paperwork and more time solving these sorts of problems! :(

I'm not trying to hijack the thread with a rant or anything, but I'm not sure that people realize just how much work it takes to get research like this done. I personally know biologists who love rattlesnakes and if they could get a grant and run off into the mountains to study them full-time they would do it. But the resources just aren't there.

- Kara
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by luv_the_smellof_musk »

It sounds like we need a new funding model. Small, private donors would seem to be an underutilized resource. While there are only so many big fish donors and only so many public funds available, a large group of small donations might prove effective in some cases. It seems to me that the ideal use of this resource would be segmentation of duties. The researcher would focus on research and the funding team would focus on the public side of things and carry to burden of bringing in donations. If you look at something like the American Heart association, they are able to do this very effectively. Do I think reptiles could draw the same support? No, but they need only draw a tiny fraction to be a success.
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by EVILMORPHGOD »

Hi Kara,

Yes, I have seen the papers........ basically I have been watching. I don't want to air my "laundry" here so I will neglect to mention my dismay here. Maybe we will talk sometime.

Yes, as far as sampling... Tissue biopsies are best although we have found Chrysosporium on sheds and even from swabs. They have a nice little kit available via USGS - Jeff Lorch for sampling. In some cases using the sterile syringe and shaving off tissue may work.... but in the end, if the snake has sores I think there is a GREAT chance it has the FUNK! Well, at least in MA, CT, NY, IA, WI, NJ, MN, NH, MD, PA........ to name "some".


I understand funding and all issues......... I know what my local biologist have to deal with and I give you all some very well deserved credit. I'm a snake guy, not a paperwork guy.

I know all about Orianne ........ they are perhaps the most progressive and free thinking here.

The reality still remains, it too YEARS.... YEARS for people to actually believe that there was a PROBLEM!!!!!! I don't get it, not one bit! They were shown it over and over and over again and they disregarded it... in fact there are still a number that "Poo Poo" the idea, the notion of it and actually convince other feeble minded persons that it is NOT ACTUALLY A PROBLEM. THis simple fact makes me want to scream. It has taken years to get the attention of the people in power and there are people saying it is not a problem.

It takes a long time and a great deal of effort (generally) to convince someone that I may be onto something and know what I am talking about.... then we have another professional expert come along and say a few things that NEGATE everything that I just accomplished. THese "people" are actually NOT EXPERTS........ they are called experts and are in a position to use the snakes and study them....... but sadly, they don't really even understand snakes or know them. I know snakes and understand them, better than most....... It makes me insane when I see a problem and I can not convince others to even take notice.


Years have been wasted........ countless snakes have died and populations are dying off......... If you think I am impressed with published papers about sampling........ I am not. If these papers were published ...oh 5 years ago... YES, it would have been great...... but NO, I bitched an moaned about it and tried to convince and all I did was get the BRICK wall.


What would impress me would be to talk to sensible people that were in a position to at least get things moving at a faster pace and actually consult a REAL snake expert... not pseudo snake experts.... Appreciate the problem and USE talent available to them. No money needed there.... just leave those egos at the door.

I generally think that many of these "persons" are ego maniacs or feel threatened and will not listen to other non-professionals. This is PATHETIC!!!!

I still do not feel that these studies will do much of anything...they don't have the right ideas...test, test, test for the Fungus........ look at DNA..... all that is nice for a Tea Party but NOT exactly what we need to figure on how to hold onto some of these dwindling populations. The testing will just keep showing the Fungus, then what?

It is HERE........... how can we preserve what we have? How can we slow it down, how can we reduce the spread of it, how can we manage the snakes and help them??????

Doing heart stabs and looking for environmental hazards like Pestacides sounds like something but not really...... All this bottle necking genetic failure is nice on paper but I refuse to believe suddenly all the Garters, Racers, Milks down the line are now all suddenly inbred. NO WAY!!!! This is NOT the problem... move forward and get to REALITY..... for some reason we can not get there and I am losing hope.

People involved....many are not understanding it and bringing powder puffs to a GUNFIGHT.

We are wasting time...... Just a few years ago, noting in NJ......... then suddenly it was there..... and it is popping up if people are looking.


Many of the people in charge protect the snakes from others that can help.... it is their private little arena. This is WRONG...their short comings are allowing the snakes to DIE and they are part of the problem.


Kara, it may be different where you work and non of this is directed at you....... I know some researchers that are great...they are few in numbers......... but PLEASE don't fool yourse3lf into thinking that the response that we are seeing is going to do much. People will get paid and they will learn some of what I already know.......

I would really like to end this session of wittle baby steps and take a stride forward... it may take Project Orianne to do it ... who knows...but it we continue to stand around holding our imaginary pipes and patting each other on the back then let's just STOP and let all the snakes DIE.

SOme better said on the phone.


Kevin
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by EVILMORPHGOD »

Kelly Mc wrote:
EVILMORPHGOD wrote:Yes, but we need to do it where the test will count... so, it MUST involve the PROS (their blessing and ideas)!


Kevin

maybe a new kind of inclusive and passionate alliance could be formed to explore this problem.
Ha.... I would say not a chance...many of the people involved would NEVER allow any of this..... this is there deal, no outsiders and they don't want to be told a thing.... they do what they want and impress each other. For some reason Timber study is for on a few cliches.....all outsiders go chase some Cabbage Moths.......

I am SOOOOOO NOT IMPRESSED. I find it rather SAD.


K
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by EVILMORPHGOD »

EVILMORPHGOD wrote:
Kelly Mc wrote:
EVILMORPHGOD wrote:Yes, but we need to do it where the test will count... so, it MUST involve the PROS (their blessing and ideas)!


Kevin

maybe a new kind of inclusive and passionate alliance could be formed to explore this problem.
Ha.... I would say not a chance...many of the people involved would NEVER allow any of this..... this is there deal, no outsiders and they don't want to be told a thing.... they do what they want and impress each other. For some reason Timber study is for on a few cliches.....all outsiders go chase some Cabbage Moths.......

I am SOOOOOO NOT IMPRESSED. I find it rather SAD.


K
Opps, I meant "THEIR" deal!!!!!!!!
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by Kelly Mc »

I know Kevin, its naive and dreamy - I know.

and I dig what you say.
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by Kelly Mc »

I want to say that I have found Kevin and Kara to be exciting to read here, competent and unabashed - I view them as complementary forces without strain.

I think these kinds of perfect storms may have more power than we realize.
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by James Condon »

Hi kricket, thanks for being level-headed and interested enough to investigate this stuff.
I am curious to know who cited that the fungus originated in the ratsnake?
That is clearly specious reasoning.
The fungus was first identified from the ratsnake, which is not the same as originating there.
As you said, the snake was originally wild caught.
They did surgery, removed a granuloma, and cultured a new fungus.
Really that's it. Kind of mundane, unless you're a member of the team that got to name a new fungus.
Unfortunately the snake died.
They did not determine that the fungus killed the snake.

Also, regarding soil. Has anyone found chrysosporium ophiodiicola in soil?
Better question, has anyone looked?
When first identified, the fungus was assigned to the genus chrysosporium.
Chrysosporium spp are commonly found in soil, all over the world.
But recently, the experts have reassigned the fungus to its own genus, ophidiomyces.
So, has anyone found ophidiomyces ophiodiicola in soil?



http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_inform ... isease.jsp
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by EVILMORPHGOD »

Thanks for the nice words Kelly......

and......

As far as testing/funding...... it seems what is actually being done is minimal, there I said it.....

M I N I MAL : 1. a. Smallest in amount or degree. b. Small in amount or degree. c. Only barely adequate. 2. often Minimal Of, very little.

If we are going to get anywhere in a reasonable period then we need to think outside the researchers general box.

Testing soil........ we have been asking about that one for years.....

It may have been first described in Ratsnakes - CANV but that is just because they noticed it..... What about those Pygmies in Florida, they didn't die because all of their Cricket Frogs "vanished" did they?

It's funny, what we have been sounding off about FOR YEARS has been basically been IGNORED until recently, I find that strange. The entire thing has been forced and lengthy, riddled with great disappointment. I feel bad for the countless dead, infected and dying snakes...... it seems showing "them" sick snake after sick snake was not enough.

I suppose it may be because they didn't regard the person/persons showing them what has been going on (often under their very own noses).

Some of them do get it, the snakes have vanished and they basically know why..... A glimmer of hope.

I know this is basically pointless, these words do nothing but allow me a place to vent. I wonder how long some of these snakes can hold on.... as it stands that have not done very well over the past 8 years. I wonder what will be left in another 8, stragglers and extant populations.

Kevin
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by Kelly Mc »

Im on this thread to learn more about this problem. So I hope you guys keep posting. Im also one of those people who like most people here, likes original locality guys, and if i happen to think a cb morph is cool, find myself reflexively saying "..Im not into morphs,but.. So your user name and strong personality, may have an alienating effect on some but not me. Your input is more valuable to me than your different emphasis in herpetoculture than me or others.

This thread isnt about those kinds of differences but a collective of experience and knowledge about This Disease and the problems around it.
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by EVILMORPHGOD »

Ha Kelly,

Yes, strong personality and all........ Ha... and Yes, I breed and make lots of snake mutations, but my hobby is Timber Rattlesnake Conservation!

Not worth being timid regarding this disease issue... I lost my pipe and reading spectacles.....


The reality is rather simple.... a EVIL disease is killing snakes and the overall response is TEPID and generally WEAK.


I am a snake EXPERT... not being arrogant or an egomaniac..... I have been doing this for a long time and I have an eye and inherent sense for many snake species so I can recognize a problem with others may not. That is more my point here when I say I am an expert..... I just notice things since my life is based on snakes.

With that being said the general people involved and positioned to help snakes are casual observers for the most part. They generally have degrees in their field which predetermines their expertise. WIth this degree and title comes "expertise" or so it is thought.


Well, I disagree and think more like...... knowledge and understanding creates the real experts. So, the formal experts generally want NOTHING to do with the informal experts and seem to be threatened by them. This whole thing becomes a game of keep away and formal non-sense. The snakes are the victims here.

SO, we have to watch as the experts rally, get funding, do lots of testing that really does not matter and come up to speed (yes, some of it does)............... eventually they will get there but I would guess it will be way too late. Just look at the Bats, MILLIONS have been spent on it and the end result is pretty depressing..... the Bats are GOING AWAY - They are DYING.

Same fate is waiting for the snakes and happening right now..... there are snakes dying as we speak.

What can be done? Well, that is the real problem here........ I think we need to look at populations of let's say TImbers and realize if they are at a critical stage. In New England we have dens with minimal numbers and they could blink out at any moment. Maybe collecting some of those snake to preserve the DNA and do captive breeding at least holds something in reserve. At best we can respond to the problem and conserve what is left......

Daylighting, opening up dens and basking areas.... habitat management is a GOOD thing to do!!! In fact, this is one of the best things that can be done....... and very little of this is being done up here. I don't understand why....

Ok, I don't think anyone is reading this so I will stop.. but there are things to do as well as doing the real testing that needs to get done.. captive controlled test that will prove some of the basica mechanisms of cross contamination and what it can do.

Kevin
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by kricket »

Okay, I will address a couple of specifics and then try to bore you to death with information about fungi and other stuff. :D (Also, this post isn't aimed at anyone in particular, except when noted that I'm trying to answer someone's specific question, it's just meant as general information that might be helpful to people interested in the disease.) If this looks boring to you then skip to the really important part at the bottom of the post!

luv_the_smellof_musk, the small private donor funding model already exists and has even been used to raise money to study rattlesnakes. It's called crowdfunding and it's definitely an excellent option to fund science when there are specific objectives and projects that laypeople would be interested in.

James, just to clarify when I said "cited" I didn't mean in a specific study - I meant in articles I read about the topic in general (since the media loooves to misreport science). And you bring up a very good point - that study did not determine that the fungus killed the snake. Actually, no studies have. That's one of the problems: Koch's postulates have not been satisfied in this case.

(For those unfamiliar with Koch's postulates, they are basically the protocol for determining whether an organism associated with a disease is actually the causal agent in the disease. In the case of this fungus, there are four criteria that must be satisfied in order to say that the fungus is killing the snakes: 1. The fungus must always be present when the disease is present; 2. The fungus must to isolated separately so a pure culture can be obtained; 3. That pure culture must reproduce the same disease when used to infect the snakes experimentally; and 4. The fungus must then again be found to be present in the snakes that were used in the infection experiment. This is difficult to do because fungi often do not cooperate when cultured, so it is hard to get a pure culture and we don't know whether the snakes are being infected by spores or the hyphal stage of fungal growth...)

As to why Koch's postulate are important, keep in mind that we do not know whether the snakes are healthy and then getting sick because they are infected with the fungus or whether the snakes are sick and then the fungus is just growing opportunistically. Both of these two scenarios would require different courses of action to help the snakes.

James, back to your other question: has anyone looked for this particular fungus in soil? It is highly doubtful that anyone has and I'm not sure if doing so would be much help. So here comes the boring fungi part...

When I took a grad course in mycology, we focused on fungal communities and their interactions with ecosystems. So about a third of the class focused entirely on how to study fungal communities where they live - particularly in the soil. Determining whether a fungus is present in soil is an involved process that's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. In this case, we'd probably be looking for fungal spores and we don't know how many fungal spores it takes to infect a snake so these spores could be in the soil at low densities. The first step is to find a primer to be able to match to all the fungus in your soil sample. Luckily we already have the means to create this primer since there are partial sequences of Chrysosporium ophiodiicola in Genbank. Next, we must find some soil to test for fungal DNA - but what soil should we use? Just any old soil out in the forest? Well, that might contain fungal spores, but in so low densities that it won't show up in the test. How about soil in and around hibernacula where infected snakes have been found? Seems like a good idea, but unfortunately if we find the fungal DNA in the soil then we don't know whether it is there because the fungus is actively growing in the soil, has spores in the soil or whether fungal DNA was shed from the infected snakes and isn't actually in the soil at all.

Okay, let's say we actually figure out a good soil to use. Next we have to purify the fungal DNA from the soil (a complex process), which will give us lots of DNA from many different fungi and bacteria. Then we use the primer in the amplification process to isolate the fungus we're looking for and run the results on a gel to see if it's actually there. Sounds easy, right? Each of those steps is actually a lot of other steps, all involving expensive equipment and lab time. It can be done, but first you have to prove the necessity of it to get the funding to do it, but as I pointed out above, it's difficult to know how much it will tell us to "prove" that the fungus is in the soil unless this testing is done in conjunction with other tests.

For instance, maybe we find that the soil in a hibernaculum has Chrysosporium ophiodiicola fungal DNA in it. We still don't know whether it's spores or whatever, but we know it's there. We could then take that soil to the lab and conduct an experiment to see if snakes can be infected via hibernacula soil by placing healthy snakes on a substrate containing that soil. Do they get infected? What if we place an infected snake in sterile conditions with a healthy snake - does the healthy snake get infected? Is it being passed from soil to snake or snake to snake? Can we accurately replicate hibernacula conditions in the lab considering the high site fidelity of snakes to their particular hibernaculum (i.e. the stress of being in the lab might be a confounding factor in knowing whether the fungus only infects healthy snakes or snakes already under other biological stressors).

As for fungi themselves, like I said before, they are weird beasts. C. ophiodiicola or O. ophiodiicola - it doesn't really matter since the naming system for fungi isn't quite the same as it is for animals; a single species of fungus may have multiple latin binomials representing different stages of its lifecycle (known as "morphs": anamorph is the asexual stage, teleomorph the sexual stage and holomorph the fungus as a whole - so if you read X is the anamorph of Y, then they're talking about the same organism even if they have two different latin names = confusing :cry: ). Fungal lifecycles are very complex and O. ophiodiicola are ascomycetes (the most derived or recently evolved clade of fungi), which means they spend part of their time haploid (with a single chromosome per cell), part diploid (two chromosomes, just like us) and part dikaryotic (one chromosome from each parent cell, but the chromosomes haven't fused together to create a new "daughter" so essentially they are two individuals sharing a single cell). They can reproduce sexually and asexually. Oh, and did I mention that all these "stages" of the lifecycle can be happening all at the same time in one fungal organism. And that a single species of fungus can produce multiple different types of anamorphs? Fun! :crazyeyes:

Okay, so what the heck does all this amount to? We need a pathway to studying and mitigating the disease:
1. We need to prove that the fungus is causing a disease in healthy snakes and that is killing the snakes (rather than it being a secondary infection).
2. If it is indeed the cause of the snakes dying then we need to figure out how it infects snakes and how it spreads.
3. We need to figure out if there is a way to minimize the damage it is causing.

There are people studying this. As the link that James posted indicates - the USGS National Wildlife Health Center is working with other groups to study the disease. They recognize there is a problem and they are pursuing it.

***HERE IS THE REALLY IMPORTANT PART***

As herpers, we may feel helpless when seeing sick snakes. Yeah, "someone" is working on it, but that's not much solace when you are seeing something terrible like this disease with your own eyes. Even though I research snakes, I'm not (currently) working on this disease so even I feel helpless about it. But there are things you can do and the most important thing is to add to the data. If you see a snake with signs of the disease report it! If you find a dead snake, send it in to be tested by the NWHC. The instructions for doing so are here: http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/mortality_events/reporting.jsp Also, make sure you add it to the NAFHA database with as much detail as possible. We can then begin to map just how extensive this disease is and see if it is spreading. This kind of data is extremely important. You can use your skills as a field herper to aid the effort to help the snakes that are suffering from this. :arrow: Remember, you are not helpless - you are an important part of the process to help these snakes!
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by James Condon »

kricket
In an earlier post, you said
"Since this fungus is present in soil, it is entirely possible that this is something that was always extant in the environment and is only now opportunistically infecting snakes."

I don't have a degree in biology, nor have I ever studied fungus, at least, not academically. But, since "this fungus" was only recently added to any fungal databases, after being PCR'd etc by Rajeev et al, I am just plain curious about how you know that "this fungus" is present in soil?

Maybe people with fungal expertise just "know" that ascomycetes are soil fungi, but I don't.
Is that what you mean? Since O.ophiodiicola is ascomycetes...it is present in soil?

Anyway, keep up the good work!
Thanks!
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by kricket »

Hi James,
Ascomycetes are the most common fungi found in soil when studies are done looking at fungal communities in soil. Ascomycete fungi reproduce sexually through spores which have protective coatings that allow them to persist for long periods of time. When I say that the fungi is almost certainly in the soil, I mean that the spores will be present in soil. Fungi that prey on animals generally have a "reservoir" of spores in the soil - it is how they infect their hosts. (The only other option would be to jump directly from host to host, which is uncommon and especially unlikely in this case because it has been found in snake populations that live in different areas.) For instance, the well-studied entomopathogenic ("insect infecting") fungi Cordyceps (famous for parasitizing insects and turning them into zombies) is an ascomycete. The spores hang out in the soil and when an insect gets a spore stuck to its body, the spore germinates and begins to digest the exoskeleton by producing an enzyme to break down chitin (one of the main components of insect exoskeletons), allowing the fungal hyphae to penetrate into their host. Chrysosporium species are keratinophilic (they eat keratin, what our skin is made of) and specialize in infecting vertebrate hosts, including humans. Many can also live off of discarded sources of keratin that are left on top of soil, such as fur, feathers and shed skin. In the studies that I've read, usually about 5-10% of the fungal DNA isolated from soils are from Chrysosporium species, so these guys are really common in soil in general.

As an interesting aside, fungi in the genus Geomyces (like Geomyces destructans, which is wiping out bats left and right) are most closely related to fungi in the genus Chrysosporium. G. destructans has been isolated from the soil found in bat hibernacula where bats have WNS.

Hope that clears things up a bit! :) - Kara

PS - I am ignoring the genus change to Ophidiomyces since it is the only species in that genus and I am not convinced it is different enough from Chrysosporium to warrant its own genus.
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by James Condon »

hey kricket, thanks for the reply
My hope is that this information helps other herpers to get a handle on the situation.
Any specific info that a professional person might add is good food for thought.
Not all of the "professionals" that I have dealt with are willing to "lower" themselves to my level.
(But, at least one of them used my timber pic without giving credit)

https://rwpzoo.org/timber-rattlesnake-recovery-program

Wait, that's my image!!!, ... yes it is...and, is that a copyright???
Damn!

kricket, please don't take my quizzing personally!

Damn! Professionals really suck sometimes!

Maybe everybody reading this should send emails to:
[email protected]

Just ask who shot the picture.
And, maybe ask if they think, or thought at the time, that is/WAS a HEALTHY wild timber rattlesnake...

FACT is, this animal was REFUSED as a candidate for evaluation as a potentially "sick" animal on April 7, 2011, based on MY pictures, by the "experts"...and now I see that the same "experts" have deigned to USE my picture...sans credit.

Wow, way to go you guys.
Way to bolster confidence.
All of the "amateur" herpers can rest easy, you go kricket, tell us like it IS, we know everything is under control, all this fungus stuff is being investigated by competent "experts"....

crap, kricket, lost my mind there for a minute...
talk later.
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kricket
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by kricket »

James, if that's your image, then all you have to do is write a cease and desist letter to the zoo and tell them to take it down. If they don't then you have the right to sue them for a lot of money (I think up to $150K). Whoever made the page obviously isn't a scientist (they didn't even capitalize the first letter in the genus) and probably knows nothing about the history of the image. Not that I'm making excuses for someone ignoring your valid concern about a sick snake, but the website and the "experts" that ignored you are two separate issues - one of which (copyright infringement) is easy to fix.

Also, I never said everything is under control, just that the problem has now been recognized officially and there is research under way now and it is our responsibility to keep doing our part to raise awareness and keep collecting data on sick snakes. It may not be used right now, but it will almost certainly be used in the future. Please don't let your bad experiences with some herpetologists make you think that all herpetologists are incompetent and unsympathetic because I know for a fact that there are some really good people working in the field of herpetology since I work with them! Sorry, but all this "expert" hate that's been posted on here riles me up because you are painting all experts with the same broad brush. You are insulting my friends and colleagues who are biologists and who do care very much and are working really hard to try to make the world a better place. :(

- Kara
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by James Condon »

don't think my brush was "broad"

I am being very specific here...

Make no mistake I appreciate your love for herps!
YAY!
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by EVILMORPHGOD »

Well Kricket,

You sound generally better than 98% of the other researchers...... you actually allowed James to have a conversation with you! Just for the record he averted his eyes while doing so as not to offend you and think he on your level.... James is top notch, highly intelligent, capable and DEDICATED to helping snakes.

We have procedures up here like "do not attempt to contact so and so directly and go through PROPER channels with all communication".... DO NOT attempt to contact the experts via phone, email, person or eye contact......


and... this is a good one....... "the snake has good weight so just leave it, it made it through the winter it should be fine and we will see it again"..... Funny........ some of these snakes did not know that they would be fine with their adequate weight and just decided to DIE!

Up here, it has been "said" .... "it is not unusual for Timbers(not Garters, Racers whatever) to leave their hibernaculums and BASK on a sunny day"...... make use of that UVA!!!! All while it's still WINTER.... snow on the ground..... Yep, go snake hunting in January, Feb, March, December..... you may get lucky and see some snakes with good weight..... 40F hot spot in the sun is enough to entice a snake from it's den to bask...... (I can not believe I am even writing this..... SOME PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT SNAKES!) if it's up basking while other snakes are hibernating...lingering at the den there is a PROBLEM!

Of course this is the general jist of some experts up here that have continued to negate what we are seeing and what we may think is happening... we show them sick snakes.... dead snakes and they think it's no big deal. Snakes that are rotting and attracting flies.....

I was asked a really good question by a top authority here when I rattled on and on and on about the disease and how it may be killing the snakes......

"Why do you care? Why do you care if they live or Die, species go extinct every day, what concern is it of yours?"............


I of course answered like a seven year old would..... "Because!"..................... with this kind of mindset fighting to NEGATE what we think and do the snakes are DOOMED!

Did you know that snakes in New England are allowed to have lesions up to a specific percentage of their face (or possibly body) before they are regarded as suspect?

It may be something like 17% (this number is vague in my memory...but the basic idea 11 - 17%) percent or less of the head covered in lesions = NOT SICK and snakes with greater than this percentage are "suspect". How do they decide this? How do you evaluate a sick snake and the area(measurement) of its face?

Wow, great work.......... thank goodness we have funding to articulate such an acute number and equation. This is what researchers and experts do here.

Did you know that the PERSON that first REALIZED this disease was a problem and his cohort have GREATLY educated MANY "persons" on the disease and must then provide pictures to the "experts" so they can decide if the snake looks sick..... and often skulk away as they get shot down.......over and over and over..... hearing why it is ok.... and NOW, SUDDENLY the same problems that we have been seeing for YEARS is now a PROBLEM???

We FORCE them to see the DISEASE for years...showing them example after example and PROOF that snakes DIE..... then we must rely on their "powers" of insight to determine if the snake is to be regarded as sick. They thought it was hibernation sores, rodent bites, frost bite, raptor attacks, scratches and bruises.... normal wear and tear.... We told them it was not and now...years and years later maybe we were right..... Now they can go write some papers.

Up here we watch dens empty............

If I had my way I would remove MANY of these people and replace them with people that can understand logic.


Ok, my milk has turned sour.....

It's a good thing we don't really tell the TRUE story of the Fungus with all it's details...it's a NIGHTMARE or a JOKE...depends on your perspective!

I hope I didn't break my tea set again.....


Kevin
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Re: Snake Fungal Disease

Post by EVILMORPHGOD »

Kara, just for the record I was kidding about James averting his eyes and all....

This is NOT directed at you and I am not predisposed to lump you into the pile that sits in a bin that needs to be taken away........

On the other hand I am being very light about some people....... they have FAILED their duty and are nothing but a SHAM!


Kevin
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