Snakes in a survival situation

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Don Becker
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Snakes in a survival situation

Post by Don Becker »

Ok, so... The nature center near me is doing a Hunger Games themed day camp, and has asked me to talk about Snakes in a survival situation. I figured it was simple, just tell them "Don't touch the damn snakes!", but... I have to fill at least 30 minutes. I haven't heard back yet if I should assume they are surviving in the USA, or somewhere else, or no where in particular. In the USA, tell them the ole red and yellow kill a fellow thing. Point out the pupils in the eyes of venomous vs non-venomous (for the most part). Discuss the shape of the head in venomous species. I think she wanted me to mention if the snakes can be a food source, so I guess I could get into the fact that constricting snakes are harder to skin to eat, so rattlesnakes would be easier to eat. Those wierdos on Dual Survival ate a garter snake whole I think. Anyways, what real world non-tv drama stuff can/should I tell them you think?
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mywan
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by mywan »

Funny, I initially read the title to mean the snakes survival. :)

Don't step over logs without looking at what's on the other side.
If in high grass or brush travel slowly enough and make enough noise to give snakes a chance to avoid you.

Can you also talk about myths and issues that shouldn't be an issue?
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

A few weeks ago, I did a 30-minute speech on this very topic - snake safety in the Bornean jungle. I told them "Don't step/reach where you can't see your feet/hands. Walk heavy-footed (like mywan mentioned above). When you see a snake, do nothing. It will go away. If it doesn't, walk around it with lots of space between you and the snake". That took ten minutes. The rest of the time was spent fielding questions about what to do in case of a (hot) bite. Tell them "Nothing. Every method you've ever heard of - sucking, cutting, tourniquetting, applying herbal remedies - usually just makes it worse. Get medical attention as soon as you can while being as calm as you can." Shape of head and pupils don't apply over here, but there's lots of myths surrounding it...

Lastly, leave out all drama. People today are all too hyped up as it is by all those "MOST DANGEROUS/DEADLY/FEARSOME" shows. Be like Sir David, not like Austin Stevens...

PS: Food source? You get more calories and less fat out of scorpions and crickets, and with much less risk.
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tomharten
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by tomharten »

What are the ages of the kids? If you bring some live stuff for them to check out, 30 minutes can go pretty quickly. If it's just you up there talking, it will seem like an eternity. I wonder if there is a game or scenario you could set up outdoors? Maybe using some rubber snakes?
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Don Becker
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by Don Becker »

mywan wrote:Don't step over logs without looking at what's on the other side.
If in high grass or brush travel slowly enough and make enough noise to give snakes a chance to avoid you.
Good call with that.
Can you also talk about myths and issues that shouldn't be an issue?
I could. Literally all I was asked was if I could talk about "snakes in a survival situation". Given it is a hunger games theme camp, I take that to mean that if the people in the hunger games ran into snakes, what could/should they do. I did confirm that I can assume they are in the USA.
PS: Food source? You get more calories and less fat out of scorpions and crickets, and with much less risk.
That's what I was going to go with. I am pretty sure they want me to be realistic, and not introduce drama, even though the kids may prefer if I told them they should cook and eat a snake. As I said, the simplest rule is "Leave the snakes alone"
What are the ages of the kids?
I have no clue, but this isn't the first time I've had to adopt a small program for an age group on the fly. One time I thought I was talking to adults, and ended up in a room full of preschoolers.
The rest of the time was spent fielding questions about what to do in case of a (hot) bite. Tell them "Nothing. Every method you've ever heard of - sucking, cutting, tourniquetting, applying herbal remedies - usually just makes it worse.
Good stuff there. Don't know if I would have thought of that. In my head, I was focusing on things to avoid being bitten, not what to do if you were bit.
If you bring some live stuff for them to check out, 30 minutes can go pretty quickly.
I have learned that once I bring out live snakes, no one pays attentions to the words coming out of my mouth any more, and they just want to touch the snake.
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by hellihooks »

If in an actual life/death circumstances...and it's a matter of survival... lizards are editable (cept the green ones, which aren't ripe :crazyeyes: ) and it's possible to fashion a noose from grasses/natural fibers/sticks to catch them. :D typically easier to find lizards than snakes. If looking for reptiles under ac/nc... teach proper flipping techniques so they don't get tagged. jim
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by Bob McKeever »

The "hunger games" concept in a discussion of actual survival circumstances is so flawed I hesitate to comment. Hesitation now having been passed by I'll offer a few points. As background, in my 30 year outdoor career I dealt reasonably often with the results of folks not doing what it took to survive in the desert &, as a result, I've been teaching desert survival for some years.

The most important snaky point, in my view, has already been covered by several of the comments already made. Teach them how to avoid a bite from a venomous snake. Survival.

The most important things kids should be taught regarding a true survival circumstance are how to help rescuers find them & how to deal with the most significant life-threats they might face [among these is avoiding a venomous bite].

Hunger, in a short term survival circumstance [a few days to perhaps a week] where rescue is likely, is very low on the list of priorities. On the other hand, long-term survival may involve finding whatever food source you can & the larger bodied snakes such as Crotalus, Pituophis, Pantherophis, etc [North America of course] are perhaps the best. As everyone here knows, with Crotalus the danger of a venomous bite during the food-procurement phase is always present. There are, however, survival stories from colonial times wherein C. horridus was used for weeks as the only significant food source & others where the same species was used to augment & extend meager rations.

Probably didn't help much given what you've been asked to take part in. Sorry about that [this last is to be read with the appropriate Vietnam era sarcastic tone].
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by PNWHerper »

Psyon,

This is one that is close to home for me. I teach at a school that emphasizes a combination of naturalist studies, permaculture and wilderness survival skills. We end our school year with a 5 day survival experience for the students. They acquire whatever food they can from the landscape, as well as have to make fire, shelter and purify water all without the use of a steel knife.

As if happens, snakes are rather common fare for these students. They are relatively easy to find (specifically garter snakes) and easier to hunt than say a grouse or a rabbit. Not to say they eat very many, but sometimes its the only animal protein (along with bullfrogs perhaps) they get that week.

Mind you, these students are being trained for 9 months before they do this and all the staff have been through it as well. They have a deep, and intimate relationship with the land and for many, taking a life to survive for a few days is a challenge (because of their deep sense of empathy). We spend a good deal of time framing what kind of mentality you need to make it through a survival situation and how important it is to practice good ethics. When they choose to kill an animal to eat, they know how to dispatch it quickly. Many also gain a deep understanding of the reality of life feeding on life, and how we are just like those garter snakes in that we must kill to eat.

Now, one of the schools main missions is to help people reconnect with the natural world in a personal, meaningful way. We really believe that can and is changing the world. Much of our time is spent teaching about ecology, natural history and ethnobotany. I think the key to survival is having a deep knowledge base as a naturalist. The better you know the land around you, they more successfully you will survive.

All these "hunger games" related things popping up lately make me a bit leary. They so often focus on the drama and suffering that people go through in survival, instead of the ethics of harvesting, and the need for stewardship and caretaking of the land. If you read the stories of the hunger games, the land is mearly a stage for the human drama to play out. It is not given much significance beyond that, and that to me is not right.

I would suggest you encourage them to learn as much as possible about snake natural history, identification and caretaking. The stuff you no doubt already know tons about. Emphasize that extended survival means taking care of the land, including snakes. Rather than spending lots of time talking on how you kill, skin and eat one. Also, as has already been expressed very well here already, teaching them about how to identify venomous snakes in their region and how to avoid them.

I would also recommend making a clear distinction between temporary survival (a stop-gap approach) and long-term survival. In a temporary survival situation (we are talking about a short period of time) you can get by with eating low calorie foods like lots of wild greens, the occasional squirrel or snake, etc. The difference, however, is that over time (weeks to months) this kind of diet will essentially kill you through starvation. This is what happened with the INTO THE WILD story. There is a bunch of BS about how he poisoned himself, but the truth is he starved to death slowly. Most modern peoples have no concept of how many calories you get from wild foods, nor how many you actually need to survive. Here is an excellent article about this and about the paranoia around eating wild edible plants, please read it. It was written by Sam Thayer, one of the most knowledgable ethnobotanist and wild food experts in the country:

http://foragersharvest.com/into-the-wil ... nt-fables/

The reason I mention the distinction between long and short term survival, is that in a short-term survival situation you can (and I have) gotten by on a garter snake or a couple of robin eggs for a day. When you have been fasting (starving, really) for several days, even a small amount of animal protein and fats will give you a HUGE energetic boost. I have felt in my own body the difference between just subsisting on a handful of greens for a day, versus eating a bullfrog or gartersnake.

This is what you see in shows like Dual Survivor. But, they never show you how to actually survive for extended periods. Their way of traveling and harvesting wild foods is too haphazard and inefficient.

Its good to make the point that if you are sitting in one place and feeding on snakes and the like, you could, especially in a group, quickly decimate a local population. This is part of the reason hunter gathers followed seasonal abundance, and did not sit in one spot and wipe everything out.

I hope this is helpful, Psyon. I could say more, but I will save it unless you have need of more...

Best of luck with the teaching!

Fil
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by Bob McKeever »

PNWHerper offers an outstanding contrast to the circumstance I intended to address. The education, training & guiding philosophies offered by the program described are top-notch. If the average participant in outdoor recreation were trained to that level I might never have had to carry a body out of the desert. Therein lies my caution with "hunger games" presented to kids who, in all likelihood, will never receive a serious training in the issue. PNWHerper offers a more than appropriate approach to wilderness survival. I recommend a conservative approach in teaching kids who may be faced with the search & rescue circumstance I am most familiar with in the recreational environment, the lost kid looking to get back home.

Good luck. Hope you post an after-action report on your experience.
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

hellihooks wrote:lizards are editable (cept the green ones, which aren't ripe :crazyeyes: )
hahahaaaaa
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by muskiemagnet »

i think you should incorporate drama. scare them silly. make sure you refer to every snake as a beast or a monster. :twisted:

good stuff mentioned above. go with that.

-ben
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by Don Becker »

PNW, I'm curious what else you have to say just for myself :)
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by PNWHerper »

PNW, I'm curious what else you have to say just for myself :)
A few more things came to mind as I reflect further on survival and snakes...

In the context of teaching survival skills related to snakes to kids, you can spend sometime focusing on how incredibly stealthy and camouflaged they can be. Snakes are great teachers. If the intent is for children to connect more deeply with the natural world, and with snakes in particular you can have them do physical activities based on snakes such as:

- Having them move like a snake through the landscape (no arms or legs)

- Have them imitate the breathing style of a snake. Slow, full bodied breaths that slow the heart rate and allow them to be very still. You can take the opportunity to talk about how the stillness of snakes allows them to get very close to other animals and not be seen. You could have the kids go into the woods, spread themselves out and try to settle in and observe the way a snake does. Often when people do this for extended periods of time, animals come very close.

- Have them play hidding games, and teach them to utilize the stillness of a snake to remain in visible. We have an exercise we use with our adult students in which we teach them to go from a prone crawling position, and then curling into a little ball (to minimize their visible surface area, and to make their human shape less recognizable). This works best when the wrap themselves up under a large fern or small shrub.

- On a related note, you could teach the kids camo techniques by imitating the broken up patterns that snakes utilize. Using charcoal, mud and clay you can them camo up their exposed arms, legs, neck and face. If this is permitted at your camp, you could also add these patterns to their clothing. When it comes to camo, counter shading is vital. Places that are normally darker on people (around the eyes, under the nose, under the armpits, behind the knees and the crotch) should be lightened. The rest should be a mixture of light, dark and medium tones. Maybe pick a few species in your area that have really good camo patterns.

- You could try a hiding game before and after the camo, to help demonstrate the advantage of the camouflage.

- This might require a bit more planning, but you could have the kids follow a short scent trail while blindfolded. I got to experience this as a student. Essentially, we were blindfolded, and an instructor had poured out a thin trail of perfume or essential oil onto the forest floor. We had to follow it until we came to the end of the trail, which happen to be the bottle which contained the scent. Once they complete this, you can talk about how snakes use their tongue for smelling and how the fork in their tongue allows them to keep tabs on which direction the scent is coming from.

These are just a few ideas. You probably could not do all of them in 30 minutes. Not knowing the exact set up you have at the camp and the logistics/rules, I can not say if any of these would even work. Hopefully though, it gives you some food for thought and perhaps sparks your own creative ideas.

____________________________________________________________

Further thoughts on survival and tv shows...

The most valuable programs to watch in my experience are those hosted by Ray Mears through the BBC (such as WILD FOODS, EXTREME SURVIVAL, and pretty much anything by him is quality). Also, I have been impressed with Les Stroud's series called BEYOND SURVIVAL, which is focused on learning the survival ways of various Native cultures around the world.

Which brings up a final point I wanted to mention. Consider who carries the greatest knowledge of how to live in balance with the natural world... its the Native peoples who have done so for many, many generations. What they do is fit perfectly with the landscapes their people are connected with. You could say those still practicing the old ways are masters of survival.

The reality that my adult students experience every year during the end of the year 5 day survival experience is that survival is very hard. They have trained hard for it, and still they struggle. Consider how much collective knowledge, and individual experience must be found in a tribe of people still living the old way, as hunter-gatherers?!

When you have a community of people who have been at it for generation upon generation, they have those skills refined to incredible degree. They know how to listen to the land. They know how to follow the seasonal abundance, where and when to seek certain food sources.

True survival - meaning sustaining people through time from the ancestors to their descendants - requires a level of knowledge that few of us can even comprehend today.

Some students that come to our course have preconceived notions about being a survival "expert" by the end of the school year. That they will be able to walk off into the woods and live out their lives without dealing with curse of the modern, civilized world again. A survivalist hermit who shuns others. This is pure non-sense, borne out of ignorance and out of the ridiculous modern archetype of the rugged survivalist battling it out in the wilds alone. Surviving alone is very hard and depressing as f#$%.

Humans were meant to be social creatures. And what good would it do if you did make it out there alone, anyway? Once you die, your contribution to human survival (via the gene pool) is nothing. And, any skills you gain are then lost along with your passing.

Anyway, maybe I am rambling to much here. These are just the things that came to mind. Your welcome to ask me questions, if you want clarification or more info.

Fil
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by Badgerberling »

Sam Thayer is my married to my wife's niece. We see him occasionally and I will testify to the long hours and hard work he endures.

I would imagine someone would suffer more quickly from dehydration than hunger in the desert environment and wonder if you could address keeping hydrated. Having eaten a single Kentucky DOR timber rattlesnake (proudly delivered to our National Forest campsite by a local to protect us city folk as he intentionally ran over it for our benefit) I would guess plants would provide more calories more easily in the short run of a survival stint. Of course, Wisconsin offers a much different survival menu than the Western states.

I also noted the recent tragedy and rescue in the AZ/NV area...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... e/2405037/
...and wondered if anyone knew how they got in trouble.

BTW Sam has shared some of his herp encounters with me, and enabled me to find my first Fox snake. He spends a lot of time outdoors and has all kinds of herp and animal stories. They are building their own house and I know he has spoken of building a hibernaculum (but have not heard a progress report).

My generation had Euell Gibbons and this generation has Sam Thayer.

P.S. All my Sam Thayer books are signed by the author.
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Don Becker
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by Don Becker »

I would imagine someone would suffer more quickly from dehydration than hunger in the desert environment and wonder if you could address keeping hydrated.
I will have to check with the person coordinating the event. I was only asked to discuss snakes, and I am not sure what else they will be covering. I can probably sneak it in either way when talking about why it is best just to leave the snakes alone.
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by hellihooks »

PNWHerper wrote:
- Have them play hidding games, and teach them to utilize the stillness of a snake to remain in visible. Fil
Fil... your curriculum sounds great, and I dig it all...But...I especially appreciate the inadvertent typo above, which actually changes the word to it's polar opposite....CLASSIC :lol: :lol: :lol: inadvertent 'word play' is my favorite kind... :thumb:
PNWHerper wrote: A survivalist hermit who shuns others. This is pure non-sense, borne out of ignorance and out of the ridiculous modern archetype of the rugged survivalist battling it out in the wilds alone. Surviving alone is very hard and depressing as f#$%.
Fil
I've had this notion in the back of my mind, since reading My Side of the Mountain as a young lad. I believe I COULD live off the land (in a desert riparian corridor, most likely)...I have raised my kids, need 'human company' less and less, and would be content to leave my works of poetry/philosophy for posterity, upon my demise. I think about it a LOT. :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: Obviously... big fan of Les Stroud, as well. :D I also liked that survival show (with that English guy who walked the Amazon) who had to survive for like 3 months (?) as a Castaway, as he had to go from short-term to 'true survival'.
Don't know that I ever will try it...but think about it more and more... along with walking the PCT from Mex to Can. THAT... I definitely want to do... :thumb: jim
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by PNWHerper »

Sorry I haven't replied to this in a while. Its been a heck of a passed couple of months.

Jim,
Fil... your curriculum sounds great, and I dig it all...But...I especially appreciate the inadvertent typo above, which actually changes the word to it's polar opposite....CLASSIC :lol: :lol: :lol: inadvertent 'word play' is my favorite kind... :thumb:
Its funny how our brains edit things, isn't it? ;) As I write this book, I keep re-reading it, and also knowing there will be plenty of errors like that in there till I have someone do a thorough editting job. The more you re-read your own work, the more likely your brain is to glaze over mistakes like that. Haha.
I've had this notion in the back of my mind, since reading My Side of the Mountain as a young lad. I believe I COULD live off the land (in a desert riparian corridor, most likely)...I have raised my kids, need 'human company' less and less, and would be content to leave my works of poetry/philosophy for posterity, upon my demise. I think about it a LOT. :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: Obviously... big fan of Les Stroud, as well. :D I also liked that survival show (with that English guy who walked the Amazon) who had to survive for like 3 months (?) as a Castaway, as he had to go from short-term to 'true survival'.
Don't know that I ever will try it...but think about it more and more... along with walking the PCT from Mex to Can. THAT... I definitely want to do... :thumb: jim
I think there is a lot to be learned from trying this kind of thing out. Walking the PCT is pretty awesome idea. One of the instructors I work with did that over a period of 6 months. It was life changing for him. And he wore through many pairs of shoes... :lol:

Psyon,

How did the class day go? What did you decide to do? We never got to hear about it.
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by Don Becker »

Program went well. I talked for about an hour about things to do to prevent yourself from getting bit by a snake, then I pulled out live animals, and took the kids out to look for lizards since they were listening well. I pretty much summarized what was said in this topic.
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

Post by PNWHerper »

I am glad things went well. What live species did the kids get to meet? How did they take to them?

Were any kids resistant to snakes initially, but warmed up to them over the course of meeting them?
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Re: Snakes in a survival situation

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PNWHerper wrote:What live species did the kids get to meet?
Bullsnake, Eastern Hognose Snake, Fox Snake, Eastern Milk Snake, Speckled Kingsnake, and a Macklot's Python. Also showed them an Alligator Snapping Turtle, Ornate Box Turtle, Eastern Box Turtle, and a Tiger Salamander.
How did they take to them? Were any kids resistant to snakes initially, but warmed up to them over the course of meeting them?
There were a few kids that absolutely would not come near the snakes, but most of them came right up to them without any hesitation. That is usually the case when I do other snake programs at the nature center. The kids are always curious and always want to touch and hold the snakes, but the parents will sit back and not come near them.
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