Mystery Snake
Moderator: Scott Waters
Mystery Snake
This snake was found in Irvine near water at the San Joaquin Watershed and these iPhone pictures were sent to me for ID.
I've included 100 percent zooms of the head to show as much detail as is available, which is very little.
My first thought was aberrant morph CA Kingsnake, but that lateral compression bugs me as does the pattern.
Any thoughts?
I've included 100 percent zooms of the head to show as much detail as is available, which is very little.
My first thought was aberrant morph CA Kingsnake, but that lateral compression bugs me as does the pattern.
Any thoughts?
-
- Posts: 151
- Joined: June 4th, 2012, 9:42 pm
Re: Mystery Snake
Released/escaped splendida? Doesn't look typical to me but it may just be the photo quality. That's as best a guess as I have. Did the person that sent this to you give a size estimate?
Re: Mystery Snake
No size estimate, I'll ask.sdFH'er wrote:Released/escaped splendida? Doesn't look typical to me but it may just be the photo quality. That's as best a guess as I have. Did the person that sent this to you give a size estimate?
I though Mangrove, too, but I couldn't find any pictures that looked like this snake and I don't know how variable they are. Yours is pretty close.
- Brian Hubbs
- Posts: 4735
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:41 am
- Location: "Buy My Books"-land
Re: Mystery Snake
I say combo Fl King and splendida cross released or escaped pet, but if that's a Cal King aberrant morph it's a pretty cool one.
Re: Mystery Snake
I didn't consider a designer blend. The pattern does have a lot of splendida in it.Brian Hubbs wrote:I say combo Fl King and splendida cross released or escaped pet, but if that's a Cal King aberrant morph it's a pretty cool one.
She says: "He seemed much thinner than any king snake I've ever seen, and sharper. He was about 5 feet long."
That could indicate a released snake that is having trouble feeding itself.
Re: Mystery Snake
Interesting. It is not an African snake. Leaving my comfort zone I will venture a guess that it is some kind of Asian rat snake (whatever the genera that are currently in vogue).
I suggest you post this on the general forum to get the views of the full set of experts out there.
Thanks, I love a mystery.
Tom
I suggest you post this on the general forum to get the views of the full set of experts out there.
Thanks, I love a mystery.
Tom
- Snakeherper5
- Posts: 102
- Joined: August 15th, 2010, 3:40 pm
- Location: Palm Springs, CA
Re: Mystery Snake
It does look like splendida cross. Or like florida or brooks hypermal. Almost looks like a false water cobra? Def an escape or release animal. And its emaciated state would make it seem sharper and narrow and less like a lampro...interesting snake. Poor guy.. should have cought it and helped it out. Probably will die. Though I suppose that it would be justified considering its most likely non native.. it also kind of resembles a Taiwanise or asian rat snake.
Re: Mystery Snake
Taking Mr. Hubb's theory a step further it looks very much like a hybrid between a getula X splendida or MBK X splendida. I am not at all familiar with whats popular in the hybrid world (in fact I avoid it like the plague), but after some searching I stumbled across this site http://www.lizskingsnakes.com/ and found some remarkably similar specimens (albeit many are very young so I'm not sure if the patterning would be the same as an adult). Very interesting find and thanks for sharing!
Re: Mystery Snake
Yes "splendida" pattern fits to some degree but as GaryN writes the lateral compression of the neck is troublesome. It seems to me more typical of 'rat snakes' than Lampropeltis. I encountered numerous californiae and some eastern getula but never seen this type of display.
- Fieldherper
- Posts: 252
- Joined: June 11th, 2010, 10:46 am
Re: Mystery Snake
Looks like a getula intergrade from South of Tucson along the 19 corridor. Def a lampro, though.
FH
FH
Re: Mystery Snake
Although nearly as well versed in Lampropeltis as Hubbs or others here, I want to say it it definitely has the shape and dimensions of a getula.
My first thought was a strange, melanistic californiae....looks almost like my pet Grease King.
Is the area that it was found well known by other herpers? Maybe some herpers planted the snake (kind of like the now RIP Tarp Dump in the Santa Cruz Mountains with the released getula and milksnakes)?
My first thought was a strange, melanistic californiae....looks almost like my pet Grease King.
Is the area that it was found well known by other herpers? Maybe some herpers planted the snake (kind of like the now RIP Tarp Dump in the Santa Cruz Mountains with the released getula and milksnakes)?
- Brian Hubbs
- Posts: 4735
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:41 am
- Location: "Buy My Books"-land
Re: Mystery Snake
I hadn't heard of the milksnakes at the tarp dump...
-
- Posts: 151
- Joined: June 4th, 2012, 9:42 pm
Re: Mystery Snake
I feel like the front angle of the face of the "mystery" snake is too sharp and angled to be any type of king. Kings tend to be kinda bluntish towards the head, more rounded off. The pattern sure looks King though. I am now leaning towards a Rat snake of some sorts. That flat necked display, the size (if it's actually close to 5ft), and the fact that Rat snakes are so variable in patterns, not to mention popular as pets, I dunno.....
Re: Mystery Snake
For those of you questioning the head shape and "lateral compression"/flat neck I found this picture (not mine) to be strikingly similar. I apologize but I am terrible at embedding photos so here is the link:
http://research.amnh.org/swrs/animals/s ... ke-closeup
Doubtful we will ever have a positive ID but it's always fun to speculate.
http://research.amnh.org/swrs/animals/s ... ke-closeup
Doubtful we will ever have a positive ID but it's always fun to speculate.
- Kent VanSooy
- Posts: 1100
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:51 am
- Location: Oceanside
Re: Mystery Snake
Kinda looks like one of these to me....a splendida mix from the Tuscon area
- MarcLinsalata
- Posts: 562
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:50 pm
- Location: Los Angeles / New Jersey
Re: Mystery Snake
Looks like a tiger ratsnake
Re: Mystery Snake
Sonora King
- Ross Padilla
- Posts: 2666
- Joined: June 8th, 2010, 6:29 pm
- Location: I love L.A.
- Contact:
Re: Mystery Snake
Looks like some kind of getula cross that was probably released there.
Re: Mystery Snake
Sonora King... when you can see the individual pixels from a cell phone shot, you know you gots a crappy pic.
-
- Posts: 151
- Joined: June 4th, 2012, 9:42 pm
Re: Mystery Snake
Jared, look at the shape of the body, length of tail (yeah, really short)... that easily rules out Nerodia. Those characteristics and the general pattern is consistent with L. g. splendida with maybe a touch of L. g. nigrita.
Here's two (splendida and splendida x nigrita) from 1978:
Here's two (splendida and splendida x nigrita) from 1978:
Re: Mystery Snake
Looks like I'm gonna have to admit it... Ok I caught a few L. catalinensis last year, took them home and then got a little sketchy so I let them go in that very same area where that snake was found. I thought they would just die but it looks they're breeding with the native kings. So sorry.
- Ross Padilla
- Posts: 2666
- Joined: June 8th, 2010, 6:29 pm
- Location: I love L.A.
- Contact:
- Tim Borski
- Posts: 1855
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:28 am
- Location: FL Keys
- Contact:
Re: Mystery Snake
Aaron wrote:Looks like I'm gonna have to admit it... Ok I caught a few L. catalinensis last year, took them home and then got a little sketchy so I let them go in that very same area where that snake was found. I thought they would just die but it looks they're breeding with the native kings. So sorry.
Even tho I'm a LECH, I see Lamp written all over it.
Tim
Re: Mystery Snake
So far we have the following suggestions: 9 Lampropeltis; 4 'Ratsnake' of some kind; 2 other; and 1 Nerodia.
Re: Mystery Snake
Seriously though, if it's native it's either just a skinny aberrant cal king... or it's a cal king X gopher(probably backcrossed to another king so that it's 75% king, 25% gopher).
If it's not native then I think it's still mainly some type of king; a manmade cross involving 2 or more of the following: cal, fla, splendida, nigrita and/or possibly crossed with corn/rat of some sort.
If it's not native then I think it's still mainly some type of king; a manmade cross involving 2 or more of the following: cal, fla, splendida, nigrita and/or possibly crossed with corn/rat of some sort.
- Snakeherper5
- Posts: 102
- Joined: August 15th, 2010, 3:40 pm
- Location: Palm Springs, CA
Re: Mystery Snake
Ummmm can kings and gophers or rats breed together? I didnt think they could lol....
Re: Mystery Snake
Yes, they can breed together. It does look like a lampro mix.
Re: Mystery Snake
Not the norm but it can happen. In fact Fundad posted a pic of a wild one a year or two ago.Ummmm can kings and gophers or rats breed together? I didnt think they could lol....
Re: Mystery Snake
Brian's hybrid pic.
- Fieldnotes
- Posts: 1474
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:12 pm
- Location: Anaheim, California
- Contact:
Re: Mystery Snake
Too me, it doesnt look like a Lampro at all. Checkout Tiger Rat snakes, they appear to use a threat display of compressing themselves laterally.MarcLinsalata wrote:Looks like a tiger ratsnake
http://www.google.com/search?q=tiger+ra ... iQLc_4CQAw
Re: Mystery Snake
Spilotes have long thin tails. It is Lampropeltis.
Re: Mystery Snake
You are sure of yourself Owen. I don't think it is possible to make such a definite ID. Looking closer at the photo, such as it is, you can almost see the spine or a spinal ridge. The body seems more triangular than round in cross section. The snake may be emaciated or if has these morphological species characteristics it is not Lampropeltis maybe not even a rat snake. The head does not look like Lampropeltis-too pointed. Of course the quality of the photo does not allow for a certain assessment of the head form.
Tom
Tom
Re: Mystery Snake
99% sure of Lampropeltis... I'll leave the 1% for if you can show me something else that fits. Keep in mind that you can see the cell camera interpolation of the image really destroys any sharp edges and detail.
BTW, I don't see any more lateral compression, spinal ridge than in this king:
Even fat snakes show the spinal ridge:
The pattern (chain starting a little behind the neck, changing to banding at the tail) is like splendida. The pointy nose is just bad pixel processing by the cell camera.
BTW, I don't see any more lateral compression, spinal ridge than in this king:
Even fat snakes show the spinal ridge:
The pattern (chain starting a little behind the neck, changing to banding at the tail) is like splendida. The pointy nose is just bad pixel processing by the cell camera.
- AndyO'Connor
- Posts: 1019
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:14 pm
- Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Mystery Snake
As others have said, I agree it looks like a getula of some SW blend, and is probably a bit emaciated which would make it look skinnier. To add, I have seen californae compress laterally when threatened, it's not that uncommon in my experience with them. All of that combined with low resolution would account for it not looking like a perfect example of a kingsnake.
- Fieldnotes
- Posts: 1474
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:12 pm
- Location: Anaheim, California
- Contact:
Re: Mystery Snake
I also see this telling characteristic.natrix wrote:you can almost see the spine or a spinal ridge. The body seems more triangular than round in cross section.
Re: Mystery Snake
there is a photo posted on the main forum that looks almost exactly like the mystery snake.
Here is the link to the thread http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=17086
the banding is correct, and the black head is correct.
-matt
Here is the link to the thread http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=17086
the banding is correct, and the black head is correct.
-matt
Re: Mystery Snake
For me it looks like a getula of some form, not just SE AZ form. But the pic has such low resolution, I can't be 100% sure..
My Worthless 2 cents
Fundad
My Worthless 2 cents
Fundad
Re: Mystery Snake
Yes, the last picture link to a L. getula that is indeed very similar to the mystery snake makes me change my mind. The mystery snake likely is an emaciated getula of some subspecies or mix of subspecies. If it really was five feet long a healthy individual should have had a wider girth I would think.
- Steve Bledsoe
- Posts: 1809
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:14 am
- Location: San Clemente, CA www.swfieldherp.com
- Contact:
Re: Mystery Snake
It looks too long and skinny to me to be L. getula.
My guess is Elaphe schrenckii, Russian Ratsnake
My guess is Elaphe schrenckii, Russian Ratsnake
- Ross Padilla
- Posts: 2666
- Joined: June 8th, 2010, 6:29 pm
- Location: I love L.A.
- Contact:
Re: Mystery Snake
Can you find a picture of a Russian Rat snake that looks anywhere near that? I've looked a few pictures on line, and none of them seem to have that high of a band count across their backs.Steve Bledsoe wrote:It looks too long and skinny to me to be L. getula.
My guess is Elaphe schrenckii, Russian Ratsnake
- Ross Padilla
- Posts: 2666
- Joined: June 8th, 2010, 6:29 pm
- Location: I love L.A.
- Contact:
Re: Mystery Snake
Here is a Mexican black (not Western black lmao) king X Cal king cross. Case closed.
Re: Mystery Snake
They can be pretty skinny. Here's a long (50") CA King:Steve Bledsoe wrote:It looks too long and skinny to me to be L. getula.
Re: Mystery Snake
I have some very similar I just produced but mine are from some F2 Green Valley, Arizona getula.
As everyone knows that area is a convergence of three getula phenotypes (splendida, nigrita and californiae). One of the wild caught pair that produced my breeding pair of F1s was a nigrita phenotype and the other was a splendida phenotype. Some of the siblings of my breeding pair of F1s had some californiae influence/characteristics.
There are some characteristics resembling californiae with these....Look at the white coloration on the brows, post oculars, nostrals to prefrontals, labials and the faint "V" on the base of the skull.....One has some banding going on. These are very similar to the now defunct "yumensis" kings.
BTW...I believe nigrita are nothing more than dark splendida. Look at what was produced when someone on the herpetoculture forum bred a caliking to a "nigrita"....he produced splendida phenotypes that look very similar to these I just hatched.
As everyone knows that area is a convergence of three getula phenotypes (splendida, nigrita and californiae). One of the wild caught pair that produced my breeding pair of F1s was a nigrita phenotype and the other was a splendida phenotype. Some of the siblings of my breeding pair of F1s had some californiae influence/characteristics.
There are some characteristics resembling californiae with these....Look at the white coloration on the brows, post oculars, nostrals to prefrontals, labials and the faint "V" on the base of the skull.....One has some banding going on. These are very similar to the now defunct "yumensis" kings.
BTW...I believe nigrita are nothing more than dark splendida. Look at what was produced when someone on the herpetoculture forum bred a caliking to a "nigrita"....he produced splendida phenotypes that look very similar to these I just hatched.
- Ross Padilla
- Posts: 2666
- Joined: June 8th, 2010, 6:29 pm
- Location: I love L.A.
- Contact:
Re: Mystery Snake
John, that second picture with the side pattern you posted seals the deal for me even though the case has been closed for a few days now. lol