Mystery Snake

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Gary N
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Mystery Snake

Post by Gary N »

This snake was found in Irvine near water at the San Joaquin Watershed and these iPhone pictures were sent to me for ID.
I've included 100 percent zooms of the head to show as much detail as is available, which is very little.
My first thought was aberrant morph CA Kingsnake, but that lateral compression bugs me as does the pattern.
Any thoughts?

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jared68nova
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by jared68nova »

I dunno why, but I feel like that snake is not native to the U.S... It reminds me of some of the patterns I have seen on Mangrove snakes and stuff like Black headed Pythons... might be an escaped pet.

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sdFH'er
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by sdFH'er »

Released/escaped splendida? Doesn't look typical to me but it may just be the photo quality. That's as best a guess as I have. Did the person that sent this to you give a size estimate?
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Gary N
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Gary N »

sdFH'er wrote:Released/escaped splendida? Doesn't look typical to me but it may just be the photo quality. That's as best a guess as I have. Did the person that sent this to you give a size estimate?
No size estimate, I'll ask.
jared68nova wrote:I dunno why, but I feel like that snake is not native to the U.S... It reminds me of some of the patterns I have seen on Mangrove snakes and stuff like Black headed Pythons... might be an escaped pet.

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I though Mangrove, too, but I couldn't find any pictures that looked like this snake and I don't know how variable they are. Yours is pretty close.
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Brian Hubbs
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Brian Hubbs »

I say combo Fl King and splendida cross released or escaped pet, but if that's a Cal King aberrant morph it's a pretty cool one.
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Gary N
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Gary N »

Brian Hubbs wrote:I say combo Fl King and splendida cross released or escaped pet, but if that's a Cal King aberrant morph it's a pretty cool one.
I didn't consider a designer blend. The pattern does have a lot of splendida in it.
She says: "He seemed much thinner than any king snake I've ever seen, and sharper.  He was about 5 feet long."
That could indicate a released snake that is having trouble feeding itself.
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natrix
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by natrix »

Interesting. It is not an African snake. Leaving my comfort zone I will venture a guess that it is some kind of Asian rat snake (whatever the genera that are currently in vogue).

I suggest you post this on the general forum to get the views of the full set of experts out there.

Thanks, I love a mystery.

Tom
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Snakeherper5
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Snakeherper5 »

It does look like splendida cross. Or like florida or brooks hypermal. Almost looks like a false water cobra? Def an escape or release animal. And its emaciated state would make it seem sharper and narrow and less like a lampro...interesting snake. Poor guy.. should have cought it and helped it out. Probably will die. Though I suppose that it would be justified considering its most likely non native.. it also kind of resembles a Taiwanise or asian rat snake.
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sdFH'er
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by sdFH'er »

Taking Mr. Hubb's theory a step further it looks very much like a hybrid between a getula X splendida or MBK X splendida. I am not at all familiar with whats popular in the hybrid world (in fact I avoid it like the plague), but after some searching I stumbled across this site http://www.lizskingsnakes.com/ and found some remarkably similar specimens (albeit many are very young so I'm not sure if the patterning would be the same as an adult). Very interesting find and thanks for sharing!
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natrix
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by natrix »

Yes "splendida" pattern fits to some degree but as GaryN writes the lateral compression of the neck is troublesome. It seems to me more typical of 'rat snakes' than Lampropeltis. I encountered numerous californiae and some eastern getula but never seen this type of display.
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Fieldherper
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Fieldherper »

Looks like a getula intergrade from South of Tucson along the 19 corridor. Def a lampro, though.


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Zach_Lim
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Zach_Lim »

Although nearly as well versed in Lampropeltis as Hubbs or others here, I want to say it it definitely has the shape and dimensions of a getula.

My first thought was a strange, melanistic californiae....looks almost like my pet Grease King.

Is the area that it was found well known by other herpers? Maybe some herpers planted the snake (kind of like the now RIP Tarp Dump in the Santa Cruz Mountains with the released getula and milksnakes)?
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Brian Hubbs
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Brian Hubbs »

I hadn't heard of the milksnakes at the tarp dump... :roll:
jared68nova
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by jared68nova »

I feel like the front angle of the face of the "mystery" snake is too sharp and angled to be any type of king. Kings tend to be kinda bluntish towards the head, more rounded off. The pattern sure looks King though. I am now leaning towards a Rat snake of some sorts. That flat necked display, the size (if it's actually close to 5ft), and the fact that Rat snakes are so variable in patterns, not to mention popular as pets, I dunno.....

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sdFH'er
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by sdFH'er »

For those of you questioning the head shape and "lateral compression"/flat neck I found this picture (not mine) to be strikingly similar. I apologize but I am terrible at embedding photos so here is the link:

http://research.amnh.org/swrs/animals/s ... ke-closeup

Doubtful we will ever have a positive ID but it's always fun to speculate.
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Kent VanSooy
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Kent VanSooy »

Kinda looks like one of these to me....a splendida mix from the Tuscon area

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MarcLinsalata
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by MarcLinsalata »

Looks like a tiger ratsnake
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El Garia
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by El Garia »

Sonora King
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Ross Padilla
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Ross Padilla »

Looks like some kind of getula cross that was probably released there.
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Owen
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Owen »

Sonora King... when you can see the individual pixels from a cell phone shot, you know you gots a crappy pic.
jared68nova
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by jared68nova »

Could it be a sickly Nerodia? I know they have been seen down south... It was found near the San Jaquin watershed? Hmmm..

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Owen
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Owen »

Jared, look at the shape of the body, length of tail (yeah, really short)... that easily rules out Nerodia. Those characteristics and the general pattern is consistent with L. g. splendida with maybe a touch of L. g. nigrita.

Here's two (splendida and splendida x nigrita) from 1978:

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Aaron
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Aaron »

Looks like I'm gonna have to admit it... Ok I caught a few L. catalinensis last year, took them home and then got a little sketchy so I let them go in that very same area where that snake was found. I thought they would just die but it looks they're breeding with the native kings. So sorry.
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Ross Padilla
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Ross Padilla »

:lol:
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Tim Borski
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Tim Borski »

Aaron wrote:Looks like I'm gonna have to admit it... Ok I caught a few L. catalinensis last year, took them home and then got a little sketchy so I let them go in that very same area where that snake was found. I thought they would just die but it looks they're breeding with the native kings. So sorry.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


Even tho I'm a LECH, I see Lamp written all over it.


Tim
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natrix
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by natrix »

So far we have the following suggestions: 9 Lampropeltis; 4 'Ratsnake' of some kind; 2 other; and 1 Nerodia.
Aaron
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Aaron »

Seriously though, if it's native it's either just a skinny aberrant cal king... or it's a cal king X gopher(probably backcrossed to another king so that it's 75% king, 25% gopher).

If it's not native then I think it's still mainly some type of king; a manmade cross involving 2 or more of the following: cal, fla, splendida, nigrita and/or possibly crossed with corn/rat of some sort.
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Snakeherper5
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Snakeherper5 »

Ummmm can kings and gophers or rats breed together? I didnt think they could lol....
repaphin
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by repaphin »

Yes, they can breed together. It does look like a lampro mix.
Aaron
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Aaron »

Ummmm can kings and gophers or rats breed together? I didnt think they could lol....
Not the norm but it can happen. In fact Fundad posted a pic of a wild one a year or two ago.
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Owen
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Owen »

Brian's hybrid pic.

Image
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Fieldnotes
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Fieldnotes »

MarcLinsalata wrote:Looks like a tiger ratsnake
Too me, it doesnt look like a Lampro at all. Checkout Tiger Rat snakes, they appear to use a threat display of compressing themselves laterally.

http://www.google.com/search?q=tiger+ra ... iQLc_4CQAw
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Owen
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Owen »

Spilotes have long thin tails. It is Lampropeltis.
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natrix
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by natrix »

You are sure of yourself Owen. I don't think it is possible to make such a definite ID. Looking closer at the photo, such as it is, you can almost see the spine or a spinal ridge. The body seems more triangular than round in cross section. The snake may be emaciated or if has these morphological species characteristics it is not Lampropeltis maybe not even a rat snake. The head does not look like Lampropeltis-too pointed. Of course the quality of the photo does not allow for a certain assessment of the head form.

Tom
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Owen
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Owen »

99% sure of Lampropeltis... I'll leave the 1% for if you can show me something else that fits. Keep in mind that you can see the cell camera interpolation of the image really destroys any sharp edges and detail.

BTW, I don't see any more lateral compression, spinal ridge than in this king:

Image

Even fat snakes show the spinal ridge:

Image

The pattern (chain starting a little behind the neck, changing to banding at the tail) is like splendida. The pointy nose is just bad pixel processing by the cell camera.
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AndyO'Connor
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by AndyO'Connor »

As others have said, I agree it looks like a getula of some SW blend, and is probably a bit emaciated which would make it look skinnier. To add, I have seen californae compress laterally when threatened, it's not that uncommon in my experience with them. All of that combined with low resolution would account for it not looking like a perfect example of a kingsnake.
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Fieldnotes
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Fieldnotes »

natrix wrote:you can almost see the spine or a spinal ridge. The body seems more triangular than round in cross section.
I also see this telling characteristic.
mwentz
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by mwentz »

there is a photo posted on the main forum that looks almost exactly like the mystery snake.

Here is the link to the thread http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=17086

the banding is correct, and the black head is correct.

-matt
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Fundad
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Fundad »

For me it looks like a getula of some form, not just SE AZ form. But the pic has such low resolution, I can't be 100% sure..

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natrix
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by natrix »

Yes, the last picture link to a L. getula that is indeed very similar to the mystery snake makes me change my mind. The mystery snake likely is an emaciated getula of some subspecies or mix of subspecies. If it really was five feet long a healthy individual should have had a wider girth I would think.
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Steve Bledsoe
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

It looks too long and skinny to me to be L. getula.
My guess is Elaphe schrenckii, Russian Ratsnake
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Ross Padilla
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Ross Padilla »

Steve Bledsoe wrote:It looks too long and skinny to me to be L. getula.
My guess is Elaphe schrenckii, Russian Ratsnake
Can you find a picture of a Russian Rat snake that looks anywhere near that? I've looked a few pictures on line, and none of them seem to have that high of a band count across their backs.
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Ross Padilla
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Ross Padilla »

Image

Here is a Mexican black (not Western black lmao) king X Cal king cross. Case closed. :thumb:

Image
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Owen
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Owen »

Steve Bledsoe wrote:It looks too long and skinny to me to be L. getula.
They can be pretty skinny. Here's a long (50") CA King:

Image
Jlassiter
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Jlassiter »

I have some very similar I just produced but mine are from some F2 Green Valley, Arizona getula.
As everyone knows that area is a convergence of three getula phenotypes (splendida, nigrita and californiae). One of the wild caught pair that produced my breeding pair of F1s was a nigrita phenotype and the other was a splendida phenotype. Some of the siblings of my breeding pair of F1s had some californiae influence/characteristics.

There are some characteristics resembling californiae with these....Look at the white coloration on the brows, post oculars, nostrals to prefrontals, labials and the faint "V" on the base of the skull.....One has some banding going on. These are very similar to the now defunct "yumensis" kings.

BTW...I believe nigrita are nothing more than dark splendida. Look at what was produced when someone on the herpetoculture forum bred a caliking to a "nigrita"....he produced splendida phenotypes that look very similar to these I just hatched.

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Ross Padilla
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Re: Mystery Snake

Post by Ross Padilla »

John, that second picture with the side pattern you posted seals the deal for me even though the case has been closed for a few days now. lol
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