Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

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monklet
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Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by monklet » August 12th, 2013, 2:12 pm

This snake was found in Sun City, CA. Looks like a WDB to me but didn't think that ranged into that area.

Image

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Fundad
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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by Fundad » August 12th, 2013, 2:16 pm

likely a Ruber, not really a way to tell for sure because of the poor picture quality..

But I am calling it a Ruber as Atrox usually have more pronounced patterns.

Fundad

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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by mattg » August 12th, 2013, 3:04 pm

Ruber

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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by monklet » August 12th, 2013, 4:24 pm

Thanks guys ...are the WDBs in the Perris Valley?

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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by hellihooks » August 12th, 2013, 4:35 pm

Shouldn't be. I heard talk that Atrox and Ruber are so closely related that they should be in the same family, with Ruber being a western sub of Atrox... don't know how creditable that talk was/is... but remember hearing/reading it.
could be a release, or a oddball ruber... but by the range maps...should be ruber. jim

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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by repaphin » August 12th, 2013, 6:12 pm

A couple years back I saw a odd ruber in Sun City. Maybe a connection?..

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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by mjd123 » August 12th, 2013, 7:45 pm

There is another Sun City in the Coachella Valley. Which one was it taken at?

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monklet
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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by monklet » August 12th, 2013, 8:45 pm

MJD, ...Perris Valley, CA, near Sun City in western Riverside Co.

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David Tobler
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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by David Tobler » August 12th, 2013, 9:18 pm

hellihooks wrote:Shouldn't be. I heard talk that Atrox and Ruber are so closely related that they should be in the same family, with Ruber being a western sub of Atrox... don't know how creditable that talk was/is... but remember hearing/reading it.
could be a release, or a oddball ruber... but by the range maps...should be ruber. jim
:shock: Say what?!?

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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by Kent VanSooy » August 14th, 2013, 6:54 am

Ruber fo sho..........there's like a bazillion of them in them thar hills

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lateralis
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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by lateralis » August 16th, 2013, 10:38 am

Had you said Sun City in the Coachella valley I would have said atrox but Perris Valley is too far west for them. My most western atrox is in the foothills of. The Santa Rosa mtns.

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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by socalherper » August 16th, 2013, 3:44 pm

Crotalus Ruber, get it off the road before that truck comes back. Those are some wide tire tracks. 8-)

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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by VICtort » August 19th, 2013, 11:25 am

Where C.atrox and C. ruber meet is not well known considering how many herpers have visited So. Cal for decades. Lateralis and other desert rats...have any of you found Crotalus on the west shore of the Salton sea? Were they C. atrox or C. ruber? Or just C. cerastes? This is a stark but interesting area, but apparently not often surveyed by reliable zoologists, and is far less known than the eastern shore with its freshwater oasis. I have found C. ruber as far East as Ocotillo Wells in SD/imperial county, and I often wondered if they are sympatric with C. atrox somewhere or what keeps them separate? There are some grayish morphs of what I think are C. ruber in the deserts, and an occasional reddish C. atrox, so it can be a tough call without detailed/sharp photos or specimen.

Some of us have speculated C. atrox and others may be extending its range westward following irrigation projects and the possible natural barriers between atrox and ruber might diminish.
Vic

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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by Fundad » August 19th, 2013, 1:18 pm

Image

Found on S2 in the flats a few miles north of OW.

You tell me what it is..??

Some say ruber some say atrox.... At the time I found it I didn't care and I didn't bother with a good photo..

Fundad

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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by William Hayes » August 19th, 2013, 4:05 pm

VICtort wrote:
"Where C.atrox and C. ruber meet is not well known..."
Here is what Klauber had to say:

"...the ruber and atrox ranges approach each other closely at several points. Indeed, it is quite likely that they overlap in the vicinity of La Quinta and Indian Wells, Riverside County, California. But there are no suggestions of intergradation either here or at other points where the ranges are closely contiguous. However, I should not be surprised were the future to bring forth an occasional hybrid."

Source: Klauber, L. M. 1949. The relationship of Crotalus ruber and Crotalus lucasensis. Trans. San Diego Soc. Nat. Hist. 11(5):57-60.

Speaking of desert snakes, we could really use some venom samples in the next few weeks (preferably) or months from C. atrox and C. cerastes, but they must be adults with good locality data from California. We need to expand our sample size for a study of venom variation. I can visit you if need be to collect the samples. I very seldom log in here, so prefer to be contacted at my work address: whayes **at** llu.edu. Thanks.

William Hayes
Loma Linda University

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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by VICtort » August 19th, 2013, 4:32 pm

Fundad, I will go with C. ruber, but only because of the range and its head just looks like a ruber to me...I wouldn't bet the farm. I have seen some grayish desert slope rubers, this may be an extreme of that morphology..? Or it may be an atrox and I'm all wet.

thanks for posting, I love a mystery.

Vic

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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by hellihooks » August 21st, 2013, 10:08 am

That's (IMO) a miserable place to herp (Salton Sea 'Flats') who goes there, on purpose.?.. :shock: :lol: :lol: jim

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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by VICtort » August 21st, 2013, 9:33 pm

Jim, I agree...it is stark and lacks the inviting rocky habitats found nearby. However, it seems an interesting area where species and morphs are expressed in unusual ways. The Cal kings in the area are diverse, with yumensis type dark ones and more typical bandeds together. Your impression is typical, thus the area is overlooked and still holds secrets. Some bizarre habitats with agricultural impacts etc.

Vic

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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by hellihooks » August 22nd, 2013, 12:36 pm

VICtort wrote:Jim, I agree...it is stark and lacks the inviting rocky habitats found nearby. However, it seems an interesting area where species and morphs are expressed in unusual ways. The Cal kings in the area are diverse, with yumensis type dark ones and more typical bandeds together. Your impression is typical, thus the area is overlooked and still holds secrets. Some bizarre habitats with agricultural impacts etc.

Vic
Yeah... lots of places are like that... like for instance, Black Lava flows/lava tubes. miserable to walk on, or flip... heavy.. dense & sharp... you try to flip what looks like a small rock and it's welded to something the size of a car (or house :roll: ) but... produces some very interesting herps, and has an 'other-worldly' beauty all it's own.
I spent the better part of a night in the hills above Salton Sea in a 2-wheel drive car, trying to find my damn way out, cause I followed a sign that said Palm Springs 2.6 mi. It was for an actual springs... and not the city... It was dawn by the time I made it out, and drove home via the 'flats'...so maybe my impression of the area is colored by a 'bad trip'... :roll: :lol: :lol: jim
Didn't see a damn herp all night, in that clay-mud wasteland :x

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lateralis
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Re: Rattlesnake ID, Sun City, CA

Post by lateralis » September 10th, 2013, 10:47 am

Hey Vic
Been busy with school and just saw your post: I have found several atrox on the west side of Sea. My most western find is the foothills of the Santa Rosa mtns, based off morphology it's an atrox but I have it in the freezer in case anyone has a DNA project in the pipe. I just released a 5' atrox that weighed 4.5 lbs :shock: it was found at a bird rehab facility in Indio.

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