Fake herp photography

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Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Fake herp photography

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

Nothing we didn't know before, but the author nicely summarizes a few highlights.

http://heejennwei.blogspot.fr/2013/08/p ... nesia.html
Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

Interesting and disturbing. It is making me think hard about if I want to continue posing snakes. Thank you for the food for thought.
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jamezevanz
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by jamezevanz »

Some degree of control over the subject is necessary to consistently produce professionally lit, perfectly crisp photos of minute and usually uncooperative creatures. I see a lot of effort and talent that went into the technical aspects of these images (check out the scrims reflected in the marble!). I do not begrudge anyone for posing an animal, as long as it was done in a respectful manner, with care taken to reduce stress and with the utmost emphasis on producing an image that accurately reflects the animal's wild behavior/posture. It's obvious that none of those principles were at work in those images. And as such, all they amount to is a pile of wasted talent and misinformation for the entertainment of a public suffering from nature-deficit disorder.

I recently had a conversation with a former co-worker who pointed out that another ex-navy photographer's photos of inverts and herps had been featured in National Geographic. Knowing I am a shooter of, as he put it, "creepy crawly things" he wanted to know what I thought of our shipmate's work. Well it was outstanding technically, better in many artistic respects than anything I've done. But he failed utterly in the primary mission that all three of us were trained in and tasked with in our photography: Telling a Story. The emphasis of the interview and captions was on his technique. My impression was that he could not be troubled to actually tell us anything about the animals themselves (and I take NatGeo to task for this too, I expect better, especially since the same issue featured the work of the great Joel Sartore whose photography we both shamelessly admire and emulate). It was all, "Look what a great photographer I am" rather than "Look what an amazing animal this is."

If photogs as good as he and the ones featured in that blog choose to use animals in their work, presumably to advance their careers, they owe it to the critters they're tormenting to get their facts straight and educate the public as best they can. I've never made a dime off herp photography (yet, anybody wanna pay me? :D ), but I take the time to make sure every herp photo in my public portfolio has the animal's genus and species along with something about its natural history in the caption. That's because I love these critters. I care that others get to know each and every one of my subjects and hopefully learn to give a damn about them. Guys dangling pet shop frogs from strings and then telling elaborate stories about how they stumbled upon the scene and just happened to snap an artificially lit, perfectly focused, and artfully composed photo deserve to be discredited, publicly and embarrassingly. It's up to us as subject matter experts (Navy term for people who know a thing or two but don't necessarily have any credentials) to do that.

Anyway, long rant, hopefully not too off topic. Thanks Hans for posting this and getting my blood boiling. Also for all your entertaining posts from the far east.

--Jamez
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Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

Very interesting input, Jamez. I've never really thought about the conundrum regarding showing off animals vs. showing off your skills. In retrospective, I think I've been guilty of the latter many times without really knowing it.

And thank you for the compliments!
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John Martin
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by John Martin »

Tamara D. McConnell wrote:Interesting and disturbing. It is making me think hard about if I want to continue posing snakes. Thank you for the food for thought.
Don't let this article get you down. What you are doing is attempting to get a good photo of an animal in it's natural habitat. What these clowns are doing is nothing short of fraudulent behavior, especially if they are actually selling these pics and making $$ from them... :x
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

This brings up a wish I have always had - that it was more of a custom for photos to state on the posts whether or not the picture is in situ or posed.

No matter how beautiful the subject if I do not know then I can enjoy its aesthetic and details of morphology, and that is wonderful, but that is all. If it has been removed from the area it was and placed somewhere else for visual values the study value has been lost and if I think it is in situ, what I am viewing will misinform.

I want to see also the topography, the type of fauna, the surfaces and spaces, the real light. If it is an unfamiliar species rarely seen or that I have never seen, a snake for example, I do not want to learn about the way it patterns its coils under a hat - I want to see where it chooses to position itself physically in biome, and how.

Even if it is not portrait perfect - is the depression in the grasses from the weight of its body distinctive enough to indicate a pattern of returning to the same spot? Things like that. I dont believe snakes weave aimlessly through habitat, or that tree frogs and lizards blithely find themselves on random branches and rocks. I am interested in the impetus, if it exists in the particular moment captured.

Again I am not in any way critiquing posing as I have been stunned by the beauty and gifts of morphological clarity I have been priveleged to witness. But I did not know about posing herps and wish it was indicated.

Or that there was a seperate category in FHF for only in situ.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

I wish the topic of in situ / posed could have been brought up apart from those pictures in the article. I didnt comment on them and hope I forget them soon.
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Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

Kelly Mc wrote:Or that there was a seperate category in FHF for only in situ.
That's actually a wonderful idea! I rarely shoot in situ anymore, because for me that mostly means "on the road", and because night shoots along roads are heavily constrained by inaccessible forests, non-existing clearings, and lots of drunken traffic. But I do enjoy seeing in-situ pics!
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azatrox
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by azatrox »

So I'm sitting @ work, doing what I'm not supposed to be doing and come upon this thread...Unfortunately, I cannot see the photos referenced as my workplace blocks personal blogs and such, but the subject is interesting so I thought I'd throw my hat in the ring so to speak...

I'm an avid proponent if in situ photography wherever possible. I think that capturing an animal doing it's thing as if you weren't there tells the story of what that animal is and how it fits into the larger context of the world. Anyone that has done any in situ photography at all can tell ya that sometimes they leave alot to be desired in the "purdy picture" dept....Sometimes the animals curl up in a thicket of impenetrable bushes, sometimes they have their heads hidden from view, sometimes they just don’t cooperate with the aspiring photographer…But the value of these photographs isn’t necessarily in any artistic representation, but rather in the documentary…sometimes a good in situ photograph will capture an animal doing something previously undocumented or rarely so….In that sense the value of the photo is more “scientific” than “eye appealing”….Of course, sometimes in situ animals position themselves PERFECTLY for nice, artistic photos….Sometimes you couldn’t have posed that animal better if you tried and with some species you better not try because the animal will NEVER sit in a naturalistic pose once you mess with it.
So the artistic and documentary aims are not necessarily opposed to each other.

That being said, I think there is equally compelling value in artistic photos of animals….The photographer may position an animal in what would commonly be assumed to be an unnatural pose or environment…The reasons for this may be wide and varied, but in this case the photographer isn’t trying to illustrate the natural history of the animal…The animal is the focal point of the artist’s canvas and as such the message the photographer is attempting to convey is completely different than if they were taking an in situ photograph.

I think it’s a bit presumptuous to say that one is “better” than the other….They’re different, but both have their place in a photographer’s portfolio…I enjoy both, even if I personally shoot mostly in situ/naturalistic photos.

-Kris
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Sam Sweet
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Sam Sweet »

I will call hogwash on the purity of a significant number of unposed photos -- just because you did not reposition the critter doesn't mean it didn't reposition itself in response to you, when it saw you first. If you see a rat snake or gopher snake stretched out in the open before it sees you, then watch as you approach, you will see that it hitches up into a set of shallow bends. Doing so disrupts the linearity of the edges of the body blotches, and makes the critter considerably harder to see. Likewise, when you spot a lizard that moves away from you, sneak up and grab an unposed photo, the animal is totally focused on you, not on its previous behavior. It stopped where it did because you are there, it is positioned as it is because you are there, and it is likely thinking of nothing but you.

Sure there are animals, such as rattlesnakes, whose behavior is to freeze as you approach, and animals that to some extent don't care, such as basking turtles. Those are pure photos only because you can't see the thought balloon ohf**kohf**k. From there to the jerk photos Hans posted there is a continuum, and it doesn't take too much brain power to figure out that a snake was photographed on a plate of leaves in the kitchen. Whether it is more natural to have the snake half in focus in the rain on pavement is kind of immaterial, if your primary goal is to see the snake. That said, there is plenty of room for free-range shots, and we all enjoy those as well. People who want to slap P (for posed) on photos should consider getting a chronic skin disease or something so they have an outlet for their energies. There are hardly any truly unposed photos.
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azatrox
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by azatrox »

Only herpers genuinely care whether a shot is really “in situ” or not…99.8% of the general population really doesn’t care.

As a segment of society, herpers make up an incredibly small section…almost microscopically so.

That people would actually argue about the value of an “in situ” shot vs. a posed shot is ridiculous…One is not “better” than the other. They both tell stories albeit different ones from differing perspectives.

Sure, we all have our preferences and reasons for our preferences, but in the end this is a bunch of panty twisting over nothing.

In the grand scheme of things, no one really cares. Photo what you want, the way you want to photo it. Some will like it, some won’t…most won’t care one way or the other.

-Kris
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

I noticed no one putting down the value of posed photographs. (again ignoring the article photos) But if someone finds their own value in in situ shots, and another cannot understand they may have their own reasons there is no reason to get defensive or use terms like "purity of" that werent used by anyone who mentioned in situ. No one can judge how reading about climates, or plant life or terrain and soil types of a country or habitat of animals Im interested in, same for in situ views.

To include a place where in situ photography is featured might be a stimulating format, for various people, for various reasons.

A generous spirit is a secure one.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

And yes - i want to see how a rat snake defensively pulls in bends to accentuate its outline disruptive pattern, and the posture of an alarmed albeit untouched lizard from across the globe in a biome i will never have the opportunity to explore. :)
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Owen
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Owen »

The vast majority of my photos are in situ, but I see some value from photographing captured animals as I take photos of facial markings and body scars of gartersnakes at a few ponds that I am monitoring populations year to year. I have been able to ID two snakes that turned up dead from my prior photos.

An example of those photos (taken this week). Takes about one minute to get the four diagnostic head shots:

Image

I placed the snake on the log after I did the head shots, so this really isn't posed... only placed:

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Snake proceeded off on it's own.

Now this snake was photographed in situ as found, but is obviously 'puffed up' in response to having me kneeling right in front of it.

Image

So which is more natural? The placed snake of the defensive one?

These animals are exposed to many stresses just going through life. The main thing is to not over stress the animal to get a photo. If you spend 10 minutes manipulating an animal for a shot and instead of fleeing, all it wants to do is to tuck it's head under it's coils from being 'over-handled', then you've spent too much time with it. If you take an animal home, put it in the fridge (or even in a cooler if in the field) to get a still photo, you're causing undo stress.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

Your documenting of facial markings reminds me of reading gorilla research, where group member noses are catalogued, as they are as different as fingerprints.

I like documentation of any kind. I look deeply at everything you post.
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jamezevanz
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by jamezevanz »

I love in-situ shots, but for reasons few non-herpers would understand. They provide insight into subtleties of natural behavior. They give me a mental search image to help me spot critters in the field (professionally lit photos draw they eye to the subject, negating their often cryptic nature). And I love to dissect the habitat elements and sometimes even deduce landmarks to narrow my search for a given species. But when shooting "posed/placed" shots, I want to make the animal interesting and approachable to those who don't share my interest, while remaining true to its habits and habitat -- which is, I think we all agree, where the photos from Hans' post go horribly wrong.
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Rich in Reptiles
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Rich in Reptiles »

jamezevanz and azatrox- very good thoughts put out there!

I have a new perspective after reading these comments. I never really though about there being an important difference between in situ and posed. I'll keep this in mind while photographing herps from now on. I take more posed shots than in situ because most herps i find are flipped. One of my personal favorite photos i took this year is of an Eastern fence lizard that was not posed, but had reacted to my approach.

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Dave
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Dave »

Although I didn't read through all the commentary, I fully agree that tricking people with posed animals is bad for the uniformed public and allows them to believe that it's true. That being said, I found this anole in its natural habitat in Wyoming, advertising for Joe's Mexican Shack. It was the highlight of the trip. By the way, Joe's was great.
Image
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kricket
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by kricket »

Sam Sweet wrote:People who want to slap P (for posed) on photos should consider getting a chronic skin disease or something so they have an outlet for their energies. There are hardly any truly unposed photos.
That was totally rude and uncalled-for comment. I think it would be nice to know if a photo was posed or not for the same reasons that Kelly mentioned. When I take pics of inverts the only "posing" I do is to move myself into an awkward position or move a leaf out of the way. I don't touch the animal. Sometimes they react to my taking pictures of them and sometimes they don't. With herps, I am either holding them in hand to take a picture (because I have to pick them up for my research anyway) or they are generally in situ. The exceptions are salamanders I find underneath logs since I need to move them before I roll the log over. They are usually partially buried and I'll take a picture of them ex situ before I return them. Otherwise it's hard to even tell what I've taken a picture of! ;)

For instance, there are either three red-backed sals in this picture, or a bunch of roots
Image
Red-backed salamander (Plethodon cinereus) by happylittleclouds, on Flickr

Garter snakes or a strange array of sticks and vegetation?
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Eastern garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis) by happylittleclouds, on Flickr

Not posed and didn't react at all to my presence:
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Green frog (Lithobates clamitans) by happylittleclouds, on Flickr

Just like I found her, but she did puff up a bit when I almost stepped on her:
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Eastern garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis) by happylittleclouds, on Flickr

This one followed me, not the other way around:
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Eastern garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis) by happylittleclouds, on Flickr
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

Rich, vital examples.

Its a great facet - How important it is to have animals presented clearly, closely and vividly, not only rare but oh how especially so - as Hans has gifted us, and then Owens example of placed, in situ, and detail documentive style and here with krickets in situ gems, living in niche.

Its Great.
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M Wolverton
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by M Wolverton »

Dave wrote:Although I didn't read through all the commentary, I fully agree that tricking people with posed animals is bad for the uniformed public and allows them to believe that it's true. That being said, I found this anole in its natural habitat in Wyoming, advertising for Joe's Mexican Shack. It was the highlight of the trip. By the way, Joe's was great.
Image
LOL.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

[quote="kricket"]


Image
Red-backed salamander (Plethodon cinereus) by happylittleclouds, on Flickr


Image
Eastern garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis) by happylittleclouds, on Flickr


I love these - especially the Plethodon Root-ometry :D
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kricket
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by kricket »

Hey Kelly, you might like this one too. One of my favorite log flips from last October - a five-lined skink, marbled salamander and red-backed sal. They probably didn't even know they were under there together. This shot is right after I flipped (before they moved). Then the skink circled around a bit and the marbled tried to burrow his head in the dirt, but the red-backed didn't seem to react at all.
Image
Red-backed salamander, five-lined skink and marbled salamander by happylittleclouds, on Flickr
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

I do!

The Cryptic Cronies :lol:

I would love to see a whole "photo heavy" thread of pics like this.
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Rich in Reptiles
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Rich in Reptiles »

Wow kricket!! That was one good log, i wonder what made it so desirable to THREE species. This thread is one of my favorites so far- very nitpicky :lol: but it's good information.
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Sam Sweet
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Sam Sweet »

Maybe we have a choice between being nitpicky and being itchy, but let's not be stupid. I agree that in situ is easier to define than unposed, but let's be clear that the functional definition of in situ is mostly going to be what the animal did when it saw me before I saw it. I truly do not understand how a photo of salamanders under a ripped-up log can be called in situ, unposed, or anything but "animal home destroyed for my photo".

We all enjoy occasionally spotting a critter that allows us to do something it normally wouldn't, such as to get a close-up photo. Here's an example, and the final shot in the series as I got closer:

Image

Image

After that I backed away, and crocdoc got a series of photos. Then I caught the snake to have a look at it. Now, anybody who is familiar with desert populations of Salvadora hexalepis would likely disagree that you can blunder up to them and take nostril photos, and they might also comment that something around 0.0000000001% of their range lies in wet sedge meadows. Yet it's an in situ photo of a desert patch-nosed snake. It's a natural photo, yet nothing about the photo is natural, and of course the snake was totally aware of our presence from long before I first saw it.

You have now looked at that photo for longer than (roughly) 99.999% of all Salvadora hexalepis have ever spent with a wet belly in marsh grass.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

Well, lucky for you in light of your strict and intricate It Saw Me Philosophy, that snakes are easy to catch and manipulate, compared to other wildlife.

Beautiful Photo of the Patchnose.
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kricket
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by kricket »

Sam, I don't "rip up" logs to take pictures of salamanders - I carefully turn over logs during the course of my research and document every species that I find underneath them as part of the agreement I have with the parks I perform research in. Since we don't have X-ray vision, the only way we can know about the habitat preferences, behavior and population dynamics of fossorial species is to disturb their habitat to a certain extent. They are in situ in that they are exactly as they would have been underneath the log (just with the log removed). I try to keep disturbance to a minimum. Since (as part of my research) I also measure the microclimate beneath logs that have been flipped and ones that haven't, I can assure you that all the microclimate parameters return to their previous state within 2-5 minutes, depending upon external temperatures. And since I also attempt to return the logs to the exact position that I found them, the tiny niches are usually still intact. Hence, I'm not ripping anything up or destroying anyone's home for a photo. Maybe you should think a bit more before you imply other people are being stupid and accuse them of things they don't do. -Kara
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Kent VanSooy
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kent VanSooy »

I also think there's lots of shades of gray here. Consider the image below - the snake didn't move at all (darn thing didn't move all season, actually), but it wasn't sitting like THAT, it was sitting like that under a board. And the board wasn't there until someone put it there. It's "in-situ" in one respect, but quite unnatural in another. It does capture a nice moment without harm to the animal, and that's enough for me.

Image
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

That he was there of this/that duration, what the conditions were, what the board provides in environmental replicate, more interesting than the fact it was artifice.

Its not the Ideal of Natural, carrying an assumption of legitimacy, but in viewing the snakes own volition, and characteristics of its surrounding reality. Its interesting to see those details.
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by hellihooks »

What about when herps pose on their own accord...
Image
Sure...it ran across the road and posed because of the approach of my car... but who's to say that's not a preferred lookout spot for him, in his daily meanderings. He strikes that pose several times a day... for all I know... :crazyeyes:
I just happened to catch him 'posing' as I was out doing what comes naturally to me...driving a car and seeking aesthetically-pleasing interactions with nature at large.
Catch my drift? No? let me try it this way: Where on that slippery slope of natural vs unnatural do you stop? Manipulating the herp? Manipulating the environment (AC) Manipulating time, by preserving a past moment?
What's natural about taking ANY picture... unless of course you claim our ability to do that, as natural to us... in which case EVERYTHING we do should be considered naturally occurring, making every interaction with herps (and all of nature) naturally-occurring, and proper.
'insitu' is a matter of perspective, relative to where one places oneself in the grand scheme of things.
I've taken plenty of people to photograph Collard Lizards on a certain dam. Many have got what they consider great insitu shots, of the Lizards sitting on prominent rocks. The Dam is man-made... the lizards are there, because the man-made dam provides perfect habitat. I could go on (and on...and on, but will spare you :crazyeyes: )
But in closing, consider this... when you take a pic of fellow herpers photographing herps (whether posing them or not) are you not taking an 'insitu' of people doing what they naturally do? :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim
Sam... believe it or not... I remember those Salvadora shots (Black Toad post) and still occasionally think of, and marvel at the thought of a 'wetlands' Mojavensis :beer:
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Soopaman
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Soopaman »

hellihooks wrote:What about when herps pose on their own accord...
Sure...it ran across the road and posed because of the approach of my car... but who's to say that's not a preferred lookout spot for him, in his daily meanderings. He strikes that pose several times a day... for all I know... :crazyeyes:
I just happened to catch him 'posing' as I was out doing what comes naturally to me...driving a car and seeking aesthetically-pleasing interactions with nature at large.
Catch my drift? No? let me try it this way: Where on that slippery slope of natural vs unnatural do you stop? Manipulating the herp? Manipulating the environment (AC) Manipulating time, by preserving a past moment?
What's natural about taking ANY picture... unless of course you claim our ability to do that, as natural to us... in which case EVERYTHING we do should be considered naturally occurring, making every interaction with herps (and all of nature) naturally-occurring, and proper.
'insitu' is a matter of perspective, relative to where one places oneself in the grand scheme of things.
I've taken plenty of people to photograph Collard Lizards on a certain dam. Many have got what they consider great insitu shots, of the Lizards sitting on prominent rocks. The Dam is man-made... the lizards are there, because the man-made dam provides perfect habitat. I could go on (and on...and on, but will spare you :crazyeyes: )
But in closing, consider this... when you take a pic of fellow herpers photographing herps (whether posing them or not) are you not taking an 'insitu' of people doing what they naturally do? :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim
Sam... believe it or not... I remember those Salvadora shots (Black Toad post) and still occasionally think of, and marvel at the thought of a 'wetlands' Mojavensis :beer:
*slow clap*

:beer:

Give this man an award, ladies and gentlemen.
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kricket
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by kricket »

Jim, I think the difference between in situ vs posed pictures is whether the picture is teaching you something about the behavior of the animal rather than just being "herp porn." I totally appreciate the beautiful pictures that some people are able to take with posed animals and there isn't anything inherent wrong with posing them (unless you're being cruel or stressing them), but those sorts of pictures can only go so far. If you're taking a picture of a herp on a man-made structure, you're learning that they are capable of adapting to that structure. If you take a picture of a herp that has reacted to your presence, you're learning about the behavior of the animal to disturbance. If you take a picture of a herp as it was underneath a log or board, you're learning about the postures it assumes in order to thermoregulate more effectively beneath a cover object. But if you're taking a picture of a posed animal, then you're only learning what it looks like. So there's a place for both types of images, but if you don't know anything about the background of the photo (posed vs in situ, disturbed or as is, found beneath cover or not, etc), then you miss out on the subtle things that you could learn about the animal from the photograph.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

My whole life i went looking for herps with a pocket spiral, a cut off pencil and a little metal window thermometer. Thats what i had when i had anything at all.

I have wanted to photograph herps but time and obligations are different for me now - its not on a front burner.

And I know I will not be traveling to far off locales. Id like to, but the chance is remote.

I absorb all i can about herps - everything I can, as much as I can. There are layers and layers and always more. A semi stiff lizard arranged on a picturesque post in an Open Clearing is too far away from a moment of the lizard lucid, navigating, freezing, posturing, across spaces of heat and shadow, risk and retreat.

Jim's Dam guys are fully functioning in an expansive and inclusive biome, and not same as the lizard that was taken from the rocks to the solitary post in the clearing.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

kricket wrote:Jim, I think the difference between in situ vs posed pictures is whether the picture is teaching you something about the behavior of the animal rather than just being "herp porn." I totally appreciate the beautiful pictures that some people are able to take with posed animals and there isn't anything inherent wrong with posing them (unless you're being cruel or stressing them), but those sorts of pictures can only go so far. If you're taking a picture of a herp on a man-made structure, you're learning that they are capable of adapting to that structure. If you take a picture of a herp that has reacted to your presence, you're learning about the behavior of the animal to disturbance. If you take a picture of a herp as it was underneath a log or board, you're learning about the postures it assumes in order to thermoregulate more effectively beneath a cover object. But if you're taking a picture of a posed animal, then you're only learning what it looks like. So there's a place for both types of images, but if you don't know anything about the background of the photo (posed vs in situ, disturbed or as is, found beneath cover or not, etc), then you miss out on the subtle things that you could learn about the animal from the photograph.
Yes thats it exactly.
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Rothdigga
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Rothdigga »

Getting back to the article in question...I really remember the Dragonfly photo with the rain droplets coming down. It was on the main page of 500PX as well as winning that Nat Geo photo contest. I glanced at it a few times and read the description and thought "damn, that dude really nailed that at the perfect time. Amazing! Now upon reading the article, I really wouldn't be surprised if that dragonfly was actually GLUED to that stick and possibly already dead. Insects can look pretty much alive if you just gas them like you're going to preserve it for a collection.
I already knew the damn frog on the back of the snail and all that was sketchy posed photos, but really fell for some of the other ones. So lame.
hellihooks
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by hellihooks »

Sometimes I don't take my camera... I walk and look and can sometimes sit and watch for a while. That's as 'pure' as it gets...no stress on the herp...no stress on me, trying to record the moment.
My point is that using a piece of technology (a camera) to freeze a moment in time, for any purpose might be considered as unnatural as paving roads or building skyscrapers. Who's to say educational content trumps aesthetics? Well... in this instance, it seems as though Kricket and Kelly do... which is fine. Others may see it differently, which is fine, as well. Again, my point being there is no difference between posed and insitu shots, when viewed from a more global perspective... both seek to fulfill uniquely human desires... questing after beauty... questing after knowledge...or ideally both. Let the 'purists' from each branch of photography assign value judgements and argue over which is most justifiable... I'll take my two steps back and say they're the same.... uniquely human behaviors.
The REAL question is: are we part of Nature, when we do the things we do (from humming a tune, to going to the Moon) or are we set apart (above?) from Nature?
If a part of Nature... it could be argued that nothing we do is wrong (including cheating in a photo contest :roll: ) If apart from Nature... it could be argued that most of what we've done is wrong, and we are responsible for the consequences...
Pick your poison, folks... :roll: 8-) jim
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Brian Hubbs
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Although I take a lot of pics, mostly in situ (with either the animal aware of me or not), I can appreciate posed pics too. However, there is nothing like the extraordinary sighting and shot to make your day. Below is a Western Pond Turtle as seen underwater with a small crayfish in its mouth. This is probably my luckiest turtle shot, considering I've photographed about 6,000 Western Pond Turtles:

Image

Usually I just see them doing this:

Image

or this:

Image

On the blander side, the following 2 pics show Desert Iguanas (unaware of my presence) basking atop little desert bushes at mid-day (I have no idea what the bushes are and don't care). But, I didn't know they did this, and I saw about 7 or 8 of them doing this in one empty lot, so these were cool shots to me:

Image

Image
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John Martin
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by John Martin »

Brian, perhaps the iguanas do this so their little tootsies don't fry on the hot soil/gravel? :P And kudos on the pond turtle shot...
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Brian Hubbs
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Thanks, and I think you're right. It was about 105 F that day, but some were still on the ground.
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jonathan
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by jonathan »

I'm not "anti-posting" - in fact, I have posed lots and lots of herps myself.

However, I prefer in-situ when possible. I notice that the people who rely on posing seem to get a distorted idea of how necessary posing is, and make dumb claims about herps that are impossible to photograph in-situ, or shots that are impossible to get without catching the animal. If you try to get a photograph first instead of rushing to catch the animal first every time, you begin to find out that there's a lot more possible than you thought. Sometimes I do end up stopping the herp and posing it, but I like my in-situ photos the best.

The one thing that I do have a little bit of an issue with is people who keep herps until the next day to photograph them in new settings or better light. They might have the best intentions, but I can't imagine that the herp isn't losing something big in the exchange (added stress, a lost day of perfect hunting conditions, release at a suboptimal activity time, possible contamination from other herps). And I can't believe that they really catch 4-5 or more snakes in a night and then drive all over the next day to release every one in the exact spot they found it.
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azatrox
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by azatrox »

"The one thing that I do have a little bit of an issue with is people who keep herps until the next day to photograph them in new settings or better light. They might have the best intentions, but I can't imagine that the herp isn't losing something big in the exchange (added stress, a lost day of perfect hunting conditions, release at a suboptimal activity time, possible contamination from other herps). And I can't believe that they really catch 4-5 or more snakes in a night and then drive all over the next day to release every one in the exact spot they found it."

I'm not speaking for anyone else here, but I've done this before. The animals that are kept overnight aren't stressed any more than any other situation wherein an animal is posed and photographed. Usually the animals are placed in buckets/bags (singly) and not messed with until the following morning. As far as contamination, animals from different biotopes and different areas aren't mixed in together....in fact, animals often don't even come into contact with each other.

What are "perfect hunting conditions" anyway? I've seen PLENTY of animals out and about of their own volition in what I would consider "suboptimal hunting conditions" and these animals didn't appear stressed or agitated because of it. These animals are pretty resilient...when placed in suboptimal situations, they'll do what is necessary to restore equilibrium...That's how they've managed to survive and evolve for millions of years. Mind you I'm NOT saying that it's not important to consider circumstances surrounding the temporary captivity/impending release of an animal...just pointing out that we often think of these animals as "fragile" when in reality (and in their native environments), they're actually pretty tough critters.

As far as release the following morning, GPS coords are taken every time an animal is collected and yes....animals are released at the same spot the following morning. Obviously, if it's a hot, sunny morning the animal will be released where there is cover (i.e. a crevice, a rock to get under, etc.). The animals know the areas where they are collected better than we humans do. They don't need help to find cover provided they are released in the same place where they were discovered.

So while I understand your concerns, they just can't be shown to be detrimental to the health and welfare of the subjects. Provided that the animals are released at the same location where initially collected and the animals don't come into contact with others while in temporary captivity, any risks assosciated with the activity of keeping animals overnight for morning pictures pale in comparison to the risks the animal assumes everyday just by living its life.

Like you, I prefer in situ where possible....but in some circumstances it's not feasible. When this is the case, I see very little valid evidence that temporarily collecting animals for photographing and release the next morning (in the same place where found) does any harm at all.

-Kris
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chrish
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by chrish »

We had this discussion a few years ago on the image lab forum.

The gist of it seemed to be that people had several different ideas of what "in situ" meant in herp photography:
- some people thought it meant "in natural habitat". Posed is OK, as long as it was in a natural setting (whatever that means).
- others felt it meant "as found". So if you flipped a snake and took its photo without handling it, that was in situ.
- some felt that it was OK if it was posed, as long as it was posed "as found".
- others felt it meant completely undisturbed.

I think the key issue here is that we all dislike the idea that our photography negatively impacts the animals we are photographing and work to minimize that impact while still being able to achieve our photographic goals. The threshold of that impact is a matter of individual preference.

Here's an undisturbed photo of a Mexican Milksnake for you purists -
Image
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

Does everything have to become a contest the moment a hint of polarity is percieved, O Great White Hunters??


battle of beauty and knowledge . . natural... unnatural!... which trumps what.. which is better...



Close vivid images of animals are beautiful and important. So are other kinds of images of animals in nature.


We all follow what gives us the chills.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

Initial comments bringing up in situ images, if read with plain eyes just said it would be an appreciated addendum for some, if stated.
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by hellihooks »

Speaking of chills, Kelly... I've seen people chill herps, to get their pic... I've seen lizards held by nooses, in position, with the noose later photoshopped out, to produce 'for sale quality' shots. The lizard was soon released, with no apparent ill effects.
Once, on a Nafha survey, the only snakes found that day were a pair of Oreganus I pulled out of a crevice, that had either just finished mating, or were just getting ready to (hemi's out, locked n loaded) I took a crappy voucher shot of each snake, and left them for the photographers to get their shots. I come back 45 min later (from actually herping) and the snakes are STILL being posed, in the sun. I said "That's Enough" and returned the snakes to their outcrop. Those may have been the two most photographed Ca crotes in history... 6-8 photographers took anywhere from 20 to 100 shots each... :shock:

In both cases, I did a 'on the spot' cost/benefit analysis.. for the lizard... I concluded the potential positive utility gained for the species at large by 'a greater public appreciation' through pictures outweighed the negligible negative utility temporarily suffered by one member of that species.

For the crotes however... the negative utility suffered by the snakes (overheating, undue stress and possibly interrupted coitus) far outweighed any positive utility garnered by either data collection or (and especially) the desires of a bunch of guys, to get 'great shots'.

Every single situation is unique, and we all do these cost/benefit analyses for each one, usually subconsciously. I find doing them consciously helps me make better decisions. I'm fine with the Lizard shoot, but regret the crote debacle to this day. :(

I caught a fang through a bag (my fault) while engaged in moving a crote for better 'photographic opportunities'... and have since then, been moving steadily towards 'insitu'... :roll: :crazyeyes: :lol: jim
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azatrox
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by azatrox »

"Does everything have to become a contest the moment a hint of polarity is percieved, O Great White Hunters??"

The short answer is....yes.

"Herping" is filled to the brim with ego driven, self congratulatory individuals who define their self worth by the numbers and species they see.

Meanwhile, the other 99.9% of the world really doesn't care. But they're legends in their own minds.....

Sad but true.

-Kris
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Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

azatrox wrote:"Herping" is filled to the brim with ego driven, self congratulatory individuals who define their self worth by the numbers and species they see.

Meanwhile, the other 99.9% of the world really doesn't care. But they're legends in their own minds.....

Excellent!


We all follow what gives us the chills.

...and the pursue gets more intense the closer you get to middle age.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by Kelly Mc »

I am very conscious that I am way out of my league here amongst all of the posters on this thread, as my best efforts photographically pretty much have most often turned cool herp moments into blurry fairly crappy pics. And my subjects have been captives! :lol: :oops:

Still I have been granted considerate inclusion, and even i can understandably reckon, some measure of restraint.

The best part has been the photos and i have highly appreciated that they were posted.

The iguanas on the bushes struck a meaningful chord. I put a jade plant that was always in my way by the window, in an enclosure with young bearded dragons. They took to basking on it just like that, even though there were other structures with same light values that were available and favored previous before the jade plant. Scrub guys. Interesting. It is to me and thats why i love these kinds of photos.

Yes I do get chills and I like it, so Thanks.
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kricket
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Re: Fake herp photography

Post by kricket »

For those of you who think that you haven't stressed an animal out because it "seems" okay -- looks can be deceiving. The more we learn about the biology of animals, the more we find potential long-term impacts. Collecting a herp stresses it, causing a release in corticosteroids. The longer the animal is under stress, the greater the impact of corticosteroids on the animal's system. Corticosteroids not only affect an animal's immediate well-being, but for gravid females they can affect the expression of genes in the offspring and for juveniles they can affect development. My point is not that you are definitely causing long-term damage to herps you stress, but that there is no way you can say with certainty that you aren't hurting them. Insisting you are not causing harm because you can't see any is a great way to give yourself a clear conscience, but you have absolutely no evidence to back up that claim and there are plenty of scientific studies that cast serious doubt on your assertions. - Kara
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