Hi everybody, I was just wondering what your experiences were with using ac to turn up queen snakes. There is an area I have in mind for a professionally supervised mark and recapture survey for an independent study for school. It is an isolated, small (.5 mile) stretch of stream that is separated from any other suitable habitat by a concrete dike system at one end, and a large, eutrophic lake at the other. This summer I was surprised to find a full-grown individual in this stretch of stream, and I have wanted to study this population ever since. Obviously mark and recapture survey to determine a population size needs more than one specimen, and I'm not sure that opportunistic search methods will be effective, even with multiple observers. So, I am considering placement of artificial cover in conjunction with opportunistic searches. However I am unsure if ac placement will be effective, due to my lack of field experience with this species. Any insight, suggestions, or critique is welcome.
Please note, that this entire project is as of yet only in the planning phase, and I am still discussing this whole thing with the PFBC, private property owners, and school administration.
Regards, Jake Cramer
Queen Snakes and Artificial Cover
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- The Jake-Man
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- Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
- roosters977
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- Location: Pennsylvannia
Re: Queen Snakes and Artificial Cover
I have flipped a few under flat rocks/concrete near water.
- incuhead2000
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Re: Queen Snakes and Artificial Cover
I am aware of one particular study where queens were found under cover boards.
Re: Queen Snakes and Artificial Cover
Hi Jake,
Sounds to me like you've found a much more useful & interesting question than "how many are there?" Namely - what's the performance of this sampling method versus that one?
Abundance is always a pain in the ass & an unholy amount of work (and luck!) to get (or I should say, to estimate), and rarely very useful to boot. It just raises more questions, most of which would have been better-asked on their own merits (e.g., what are the survival rates for different life stages, how does habitat influence survival, why are they easier to find over here, etc etc). I wouldn't bother trying to estimate abundance, particularly in light of likely initial & recapture probabilities - I think you have better odds of making an actual contribution to science, and to your own career if you're hoping to work with wild animals, with a methods paper.
Try to estimate abundance and probably all you'll get is "minimum known alive" - a cheesy work-around to poor estimator behavior with the constraints you'll likely experience. At that stage you'll probably get suggestions to try and salvage your work with something like I mentioned at the top of this post. So - why not just go straight there on purpose, and do it well?
Just my $.02, trying to be constructive not a bummer.
cheers,
Jimi
Sounds to me like you've found a much more useful & interesting question than "how many are there?" Namely - what's the performance of this sampling method versus that one?
Abundance is always a pain in the ass & an unholy amount of work (and luck!) to get (or I should say, to estimate), and rarely very useful to boot. It just raises more questions, most of which would have been better-asked on their own merits (e.g., what are the survival rates for different life stages, how does habitat influence survival, why are they easier to find over here, etc etc). I wouldn't bother trying to estimate abundance, particularly in light of likely initial & recapture probabilities - I think you have better odds of making an actual contribution to science, and to your own career if you're hoping to work with wild animals, with a methods paper.
Try to estimate abundance and probably all you'll get is "minimum known alive" - a cheesy work-around to poor estimator behavior with the constraints you'll likely experience. At that stage you'll probably get suggestions to try and salvage your work with something like I mentioned at the top of this post. So - why not just go straight there on purpose, and do it well?
Just my $.02, trying to be constructive not a bummer.
cheers,
Jimi
- The Jake-Man
- Posts: 224
- Joined: June 25th, 2012, 4:08 pm
- Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
Re: Queen Snakes and Artificial Cover
Jimi, thanks for the suggestion. Just for fun, on two consecutive afternoons this week, I walked almost the entire length of my planned study site looking for queens out basking or foraging, and could not find a single specimen. So, it seems that if this study will have any chance of success, it will have to incorporate some form of collection other than just opportunistic searches. If I followed your advice, and tried different methods of cover placement, I could incorporate some sort of microhabitat survey, which like you said, might actually be useful in the future.
Re: Queen Snakes and Artificial Cover
Perhaps you could study distances the animals are found from the edge of the stream. There's a usually shallow, rocky river i visit frequently and I'm astounded at how often (almost always) the queens are under rocks in the edge of the water, even though the river depth can vary dramatically (more than 10' in less than a week, for example). How quickly do they move to water's edge? I'd imagine it's both because that's where the crayfish are and for thermoregulation. So maybe there'd be data on locations-where-found dependent upon water temp, as well. (Things that make me go, "hmmm..." when i'm in the field). But I imagine it'd play havoc with your ac placement. You sure couldn't use boards.
Re: Queen Snakes and Artificial Cover
I've seen some AC studies where flood-removal was a concern. Sometimes folks will drill a hole in the AC and wire it to a stake. You can use a swivel so the wire doesn't twist to the breaking point. Like trappers use. Maybe braided wire too, if that creek rages. "Snare supplies" is a decent search term for this type of gear.
Of course - all this takes what was already too much work, and doubles it...and blows up the budget to boot.
"why it's better to look before you leap", ha ha
cheers,
Jimi
Of course - all this takes what was already too much work, and doubles it...and blows up the budget to boot.
"why it's better to look before you leap", ha ha
cheers,
Jimi
Re: Queen Snakes and Artificial Cover
Hey there,
I've been researching Queensnake's and their habitat for the past 3 years
throughout their northern range in the province of Ontario, Canada.
I have not personally put out artificial cover for surveys, but have found
Queensnake under items such as carpets, wood, cement stair structures,
docks, plastic etc as well as the usual rocks. It wouldn't hurt to try adding
some AC to potentially bump up your numbers!
I've also used drift fences with traps in the fall to capture
queensnakes on way to hibernating. One was found in the trap,
the others along the fence under rocks used to weigh down the fabric.
I agree to watch out for rain/flooding though as queensnakes are found
relative to the shoreline (zero to around 5 metres) during the active summer season.
They can be found much further away in the fall en route to hibernacula.
Was the queensnake you found in the stream swimming or under cover?
Have they been found there in the past? Does that concrete dyke structure
you mentioned have cracks, holes, openings etc in it? One large population
I monitor actually uses a large man-made concrete stair structure along the
river shoreline for shelter in the summer and presumably as a hibernaculum in the winter too.
More info of my surveys can be found on this blog below:
http://www.natureconservancy.ca/en/wher ... h-project/
I've been researching Queensnake's and their habitat for the past 3 years
throughout their northern range in the province of Ontario, Canada.
I have not personally put out artificial cover for surveys, but have found
Queensnake under items such as carpets, wood, cement stair structures,
docks, plastic etc as well as the usual rocks. It wouldn't hurt to try adding
some AC to potentially bump up your numbers!
I've also used drift fences with traps in the fall to capture
queensnakes on way to hibernating. One was found in the trap,
the others along the fence under rocks used to weigh down the fabric.
I agree to watch out for rain/flooding though as queensnakes are found
relative to the shoreline (zero to around 5 metres) during the active summer season.
They can be found much further away in the fall en route to hibernacula.
Was the queensnake you found in the stream swimming or under cover?
Have they been found there in the past? Does that concrete dyke structure
you mentioned have cracks, holes, openings etc in it? One large population
I monitor actually uses a large man-made concrete stair structure along the
river shoreline for shelter in the summer and presumably as a hibernaculum in the winter too.
More info of my surveys can be found on this blog below:
http://www.natureconservancy.ca/en/wher ... h-project/
- The Jake-Man
- Posts: 224
- Joined: June 25th, 2012, 4:08 pm
- Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
Re: Queen Snakes and Artificial Cover
Thank you for posting that link!
I have since decided against the population size study, for the reasons that Jimi mentioned; I will instead be studying what ac setups work, and why/why not compared to natural cover.
The snake that I found was out basking on top of part of a massive system of rock gabions. I believe that complex of gabions serves these snakes as a hibernaculum. This is the only record that I know of from this area. There are other records from my county, but none of the habitat descriptions match the area that I am studying.
I have since decided against the population size study, for the reasons that Jimi mentioned; I will instead be studying what ac setups work, and why/why not compared to natural cover.
The snake that I found was out basking on top of part of a massive system of rock gabions. I believe that complex of gabions serves these snakes as a hibernaculum. This is the only record that I know of from this area. There are other records from my county, but none of the habitat descriptions match the area that I am studying.