Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

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Josh Holbrook
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Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Alright everyone, at Tim's request...

Winter is beginning for many of you, and for everyone north of Tampa that means either grab a coat and waders and get looking for snot lizards; or sit behind your computer and post pictures from warmer times.

Let's face it: you're probably going to do the latter. Well good, you can help - Let's see your Salt Marsh Snakes (Nerodia clarkii). Any of the three flavors will do - The Mangrove (N. c. compressicauda), Gulf Coast (N. c. clarkii) or the Federally endangered (read: don't post pictures of you holding or licking it) Atlantic Salt Marsh Snake (N. c. taeniata). This is probably THE most variable snake in North America (correct me if I'm wrong); and I'm not ashamed to say that when I tell other herpers about clarkii and they don't seem really interested in the species, I judge them a little bit... There, I said it.

I'd be especially interested in seeing some of the Gulf Coast individuals that people have found from the panhandle westward.

Note: I wrote an article on clarkii for a future Herp Nation issue, so I might not post TONS of my own pictures here, but I'll definitely chime in here and there.
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Nerodia clarkii clarkii, my lifer "clarkii clarkii" from Lee county this past month. In habitat.

Image
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BillMcGighan
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by BillMcGighan »

Josh, you are probably up on this much more than I, so is N. clarkii compressicauda not there???





This DOR is a “clarkii clarkii” from Levy County, FL.

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Image





We need to get Mark Kenderdine (Crimson King) into this. He has some world class pics from the west coast.


The first Mangrove I found was a huge gravid female that I kept for a week, just long enough to see the litter. There was every Mangrove color phase in that litter!
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Lloyd Heilbrunn »

Image
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Lloyd Heilbrunn wrote:Image

I've seen that one before; but it's such a cool color - I've seen em' that nice olive green in northeast Florida, but not as chunky as that guy.
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Josh Holbrook »

BillMcGighan wrote:Josh, you are probably up on this much more than I, so is N. clarkii compressicauda not there???


You mean my clarkii I posted? Technically, the line of delineation between N. c. clarkii and N. c. compressicauda is Cedar Key - this was north of Cedar Key. Realistically they probably intergrade (hybridize? I guess it depends on the taxonomy) well north of Cedar Key; but the species is so mysterious that I'm just going to call that one "clarkii clarkii" until I find one with 3 full body stripes. (***Cough***Spring NAFHA SE Panhandle trip? ***Cough***)
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dery
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by dery »

Here's a mangrove from the tampa area. I don't have the pic on my computer any more so a naherp voucher will have to do.
http://www.naherp.com/photo.php?v_id=125998
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Easy enough to post - just right click an hit "Copy link location", and viola!

Image
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Tim Borski
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Tim Borski »

Here's an orange-ish one from the middle Keys.


Image


This could be a great thread! I'll toss up more later.

Tim
kwross
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by kwross »

Image
Image
There you go more on the way !!
kwross
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by kwross »

Upper keys firts salt marsh
Lower keys second salt marsh
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BillMcGighan
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by BillMcGighan »

JH
(***Cough***Spring NAFHA SE Panhandle trip? ***Cough***)
That sounds good.




What county was that, Lloyd?


This thread is great.


Tim, I didn't know the red ones were that far south. Very cool.




JH
[
my lifer "clarkii clarkii" from Lee county this past month.
Oh, you meant Levy County. My mistake. :oops:
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Josh Holbrook »

BIll, my first red was from the lower keys (no locality giveaway, but let's just say there were some small quadrupeds about,) And yes, sorry - Everything north of Osceola/Indian River Co. is a complete mystery to me.
snakehunter
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by snakehunter »

here is an orange one i found
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This is the one you guys told me was a FL water/salt marsh
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Carl D. May
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Carl D. May »

Here are a couple from the Flamingo area. Not great shots just the 'jump out of the car and snap a picture' type photos when the mosquitoes are nuts.

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Noah M
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Noah M »

This is a great thread. I've never actually seen a salt marsh snake. I didn't even know they existed until I moved down here. I feel like I may have to wait until spring before I'll see one. But I sure do like all of the pictures.
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Kevin Messenger
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Kevin Messenger »

My favorite Nerodia.

Some of my favorites over the years:
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Lloyd Heilbrunn
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Lloyd Heilbrunn »

BillMcGighan wrote:


What county was that, Lloyd?

Hillsborough
Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

Image
These are from Mobile County. We don't have the pretty red ones here.
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Great pictures all,

Tamara, you're crazy - if I lived where there were clarkii clarkii like that I'd have mini freak outs all the time thinking I'd found rainbow snakes. :beer:

Kevin, you usually come down in the winter, right? Do you day hike, night hike or cruise them?


Well, a new day, a new locality. If anyone was paying attention to the President thread, I posted this, but didn't explain it. This is about 17 clarkii from the treasure coast area that we hiked within about an hour and a half or so. Unfortunately it happened to be that the most fasciata looking clarkii ended up in the front, but you can see some of the typical "pure" clarkii in there. This population is technically a zone of integradation between N. c. compressicauda and N. c. taeniata, and we got some that looked like both (and in case the NSA is listening in, yes, we were permitted to handle taeniata.)

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And here's a habitat shot from down in the Lower Keys

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As many of you know, clarkii regularly hybridizes with the Florida (Banded) Watersnake (Nerodia fasciata), so feel free to post your hybrid shots too.
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chrish
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by chrish »

Here's one from the farthest west/south they occur (at least in their known range). There aren't many mangroves to find them in here, but they do occur in Salt Marshes. Strangely the only place I have ever seen them is a brackish water treatment plant (birding center) in Port Aransas, Texas.

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Sorry, not sure why pbase isn't showing that one. Will reload.
dbh
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by dbh »

These are all from Louisiana. These are all pics from my NAHERP records.

St. Tammany Parish
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St. Bernard Parish

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[imghttp://www.naherp.com/vouchers/124439-151445.jpg][/img]

Orleans Parish

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Plaquemines Parish

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I like the variability of the specimens.
David
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Chris - I'm afraid your picture isn't showing up, but I'm anxious to see it.

David - WOW; those are some of the nicest venters I've seen on clarkii (I'll be posting some in the coming days) - I like the brownish-reds on them. Were these found near to a freshwater source? It looks like some of them are hybrids, but I'm not sure: it could just be the natural patterning there.
dbh
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by dbh »

Josh,

Some of those are close to freshwater but also close to salt, it's LA after all.
I tried not to show a bunch of road trauma snakes, there are some nice venters in my NAHERP records. Some definitely have some fasciata in them,I usually go by the venter to see that.

David
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Tim Borski
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Tim Borski »

Ok, so 3 or 4 of the kids in the neighborhood are going to the end of the road when it gets dark and everyone is done with dinner...we'll chase Saltmarshes and hopefully add something to this thread... :mrgreen:

Tim
Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

Here's one more. Most of the ones I see around here are just striped. This one (southern Mississippi) had some blotches. Image
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Tim Borski wrote:Ok, so 3 or 4 of the kids in the neighborhood are going to the end of the road when it gets dark and everyone is done with dinner...we'll chase Saltmarshes and hopefully add something to this thread... :mrgreen:

Tim
Tim, do you have any pictures of some of the really yellow ones from down there? That phase is on my to-find list.
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umop apisdn
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by umop apisdn »

Various from the Keys, may or may not overlap with individuals pictured by Kevin.

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in situ
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and last, a pretty hybrid from ENP
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Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

Love that second snake, with the gray. It is lovely.
And of course the orange/red ones are gorgeous.
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Tim Borski
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Tim Borski »

I agree with Tam, that second is a knockout!!

Tim
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BillMcGighan
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by BillMcGighan »

This is great. Is there any other animal in the east with such a dramatic variance within the same locals?



Tamara,
That's a great looking animal.
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Agreed, Bill - thanks everybody for posting pictures, keep them coming.

Here's a couple of hybrids from ENP, they certainly do tell an interesting story.

The first, who looks like a somewhat normal fasciata up top, except for a bit more chocolate coloration than usual:

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But below, it becomes evident that he has a lot of clarkii going on too. Besides counting the midbody scales, venter is probably the best way to distinguish between fasciata and clarkii.
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And one other favorite from Dade County, this one had golden crossbands, and even more gilded eyes. It was a beauty, unfortunately it didn't look quite as good in photographic form.
Image
Carl D. May
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Carl D. May »

dbh wrote:These are all from Louisiana. These are all pics from my NAHERP records.

St. Tammany Parish
Image

St. Bernard Parish

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
[imghttp://www.naherp.com/vouchers/124439-151445.jpg][/img]

Orleans Parish

Image
Image
Image

Plaquemines Parish

Image
Image
Image

I like the variability of the specimens.
David
MAN are those cool looking! What a weird group of H2O snakes.
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Crimson King
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Crimson King »

Image

Image

:Mark
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BillMcGighan
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by BillMcGighan »

Not disappointed, Mark. :D
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Crimson King
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Crimson King »

I have tons but many are on an old comp. or old photo sites.....
I'll have to dig around....

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:Mark
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Man, Mark - such beautiful clarkii. That blue/gold one is unlike any I've ever seen. Do you see that phase often?
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Crimson King
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Crimson King »

I don't see them with that combination often. I almost brought him home to breed my females but decided to let him keep making wild ones instead..

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:Mark
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Jared Cain
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Jared Cain »

There are some stunning animals in this thread! What an awesome species.


Unfortunately I have only seen one. Here is a terrible pic of a taeniata. Nice striped and blotched individual. I really like the patterns on this snake.

Image
046 by Cain304, on Flickr
Carl D. May
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Carl D. May »

This is another ENP animal out on the road. Not sure, but I would say a hybrid.

Image
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Nshepard
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Nshepard »

N. c. compressicauda

Lower Keys:

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in-situ

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in-situ

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in-situ

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posed

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posed

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posed

AND then, the glades area hyrbid things (variations of Nerodia clarkii compressicauda X N. fasciata pictiventris):

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Sorry for this being so long winded...
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Soopaman
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Soopaman »

Fasciata x clarkii mutt:

Image
Image

And a pure one from Matagorda County:
Image
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Nathan - A striped one in the keys? That's out of left field...pretty cool.

Soopaman - Thanks, I was hoping to see some from Texas. . .
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Nshepard
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Nshepard »

Josh Holbrook wrote:Nathan - A striped one in the keys? That's out of left field...pretty cool.
No, the striped individual was from the everglades area. Still, the only striped example we've seen in on our trips to South Florida.
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umop apisdn
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by umop apisdn »

Wow, we must have seen the same in situ snake! What are the chances?!
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Let's keep it going if anybody still has some, the variation in this species continues to blow my mind.

Here's another treasure coaster:

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And, believe it or not, this one is a pure clarkii, not a hybrid. I call it the fasciata-esque phase.

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The belly:

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Nshepard
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Nshepard »

Josh Holbrook wrote:And, believe it or not, this one is a pure clarkii, not a hybrid. I call it the fasciata-esque phase.
Where is it from?
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Lower Keys. Without a TOS-violating locality give away, let's say there were delicious looking cervids running around.
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Tim Borski
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Tim Borski »

I'll add more when I get a chance to p-bucket them. Excellent thread.

Tim
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Nshepard
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Re: Show me your Salt Marsh Snake

Post by Nshepard »

Josh Holbrook wrote:Lower Keys. Without a TOS-violating locality give away, let's say there were delicious looking cervids running around.
Yeah, general area was all I meant.
Josh Holbrook wrote:And, believe it or not, this one is a pure clarkii, not a hybrid. I call it the fasciata-esque phase.

Image
This animal is from the lower keys (aka south of 7-mile bridge)? Dang, I can't recall a single specimen we've seen that look anywhere near that 'fasciata-esque' in the Lower Keys. That's cool.
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