What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Dedicated exclusively to field herping.

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Ted
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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Ted »

Some real gems in this thread! Here's my contribution:

Stop looking so hard, you'll find more than you were trying to.

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Noah M
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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Noah M »

brick911 wrote: I end up herping way too much.
Wait, is this even possible? :?:

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intermedius
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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by intermedius »

To appreciate every species you find on a trip, and the great sights you see on the way (Robert Is Here, Jeans on the road, Grand Canyon)

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by soulsurvivor »

azatrox wrote:"If you've been hiking for hours and haven't found anything, head back to the car...your target will surely be sitting 50 feet from it."

-Kris
This is kind of what I meant by "You find things in the last place you look". Seems like on a 4 hr hike, I'll find the most herps in the 30 min before I get back to the car!

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

intermedius wrote:Robert Is Here, Jeans on the road
wot?

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

Robert Is Here is the home of the world's best milkshakes. Located near ENP.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

Thank you! And Jeans on the Road? :-)

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

I don't know about the Jeans. I've been hoping somebody would elaborate.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by muskiemagnet »

ok, i've read through this and i need to add to such an awesome thread....sticky??????

competition vs. cooperation. i vote for cooperation but it sure is fun to needle a competitive friend who has a bad day. also, it's nice to have competition. while those who are competing to take the most glorious picture they are wasting time. i just keep moving and find more critters....................................... oh, and it is not about a vast lifelist as many seem to think. finding a species doesn't make you an expert. observing this species over time does. i know it's fun to find new spots but pick a few and visit regularly. this is when you learn. be observant of everything around you. be prepared to change your strategy on the fly. something as subtle as thin cloud cover moving in can mean the difference. times like this, go back to the spot you struck out at earlier............................................... oh, and always investigate loud concentrations of crows or jays. there's a chance you'll see something interesting....................................................... if you happen on anything with out it seeing you, don't rush in and grab. stop and observe. oh, and wear full camo. remain as inconspicuous as possible. white t-shirts stick out like a sore thumb. herps can see this movement. so can AK-47 wielding pot growers........................................................................... do not burn yourself out herping. sitting down for a good meal and beers with fellow herpers by a campfire can be just as productive for learning, and teaching as well. this is also the time when you build trusting life-long relationships......................................................only share good spots with those you trust, and if you aren't sure about them yet, either don't tell them or threaten a broken jaw. this seems to get the point across. :lol: :lol: :lol: i am being serious here.................................................do your research. put your knowledge to good use. have a goal in mind. focus on the harder stuff(maybe an SGCN animal). you'll find the easy stuff along the way. relay info to your DNR. you'll be amazed at the doors that may open for you..............................................journal all herping trips. not the scientific stuff just the trip itself. do this at the end of every day. when you are old and gray you can read your journals and relive many fond memories.........................................educate everyone along the way. people can see the fire in your eyes. this speaks volumes. they listen. teach them about herps and the need for them. by doing this, you give them morsels of knowledge. this knowledge gives the herp a name so to say. it's no longer "just a snake". it's a "milksnake who spends most of it's time under cover by day and forages on rodents and other stuff by night". folks will pass this knowledge on and be less likely to kill it out of ignorance.

ok, i'm done. i'm sure i overlapped some other stuff but that is my take. looking forward to reading this as it developes.

-ben

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by BDSkinner »

Hm, so much to talk about and so many great things said.

I think the biggest ideal I have learned is total respect for every environment I travel into (and those I have yet to see). I've also made it a personal project to become an amateur everything, a very well rounded naturalist. Doing this makes short hikes through the woods take hours upon hours. Which brings me to another lesson, keeping a mobile lifestyle. Luckily I do have the time to visit trails and woods regularly and spend quite a bit at the same spots. I really doing enjoy the idea of frequently revisiting places, mainly for the numerous fungi which reside in the hills around me. There is rarely a hike I go on without finding a 'lifer' mushroom. Just incredible. On my naturalistic ventures, I plan to dip into Odonates next, then maybe trees. Appreciation is key for my drive and inspiration. I am not good at passing that along yet, but all in due time.

As for superstitious claims, I have almost none. That's just my cynicism I guess. I have been wearing the same bass pro shop hat for a long time......

-Brad

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by justinm »

Jeff Lemm wrote:- forget your camera and you will find the best thing on Earth
-always trust your kids when they say they saw something
-stay up later than everyone else and keep herping, even on horrible nights
-go to new places!!!!!!
-forget boardlines and do some actual herping, lol
Jeff,

All of this, all of it is so true for me. I don't know how many guys have a story, my buddy, herping partner, kids, wife whoever got tired. I kept going and found "x". It's happened to me, and I've been on the right side of it too. Ask the group that went to Peru last year about the Bushmaster that was found late after people got tired and went to camp.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by cbernz »

justinm wrote:
Jeff Lemm wrote:- forget your camera and you will find the best thing on Earth
-always trust your kids when they say they saw something
-stay up later than everyone else and keep herping, even on horrible nights
-go to new places!!!!!!
-forget boardlines and do some actual herping, lol
Jeff,

All of this, all of it is so true for me. I don't know how many guys have a story, my buddy, herping partner, kids, wife whoever got tired. I kept going and found "x". It's happened to me, and I've been on the right side of it too. Ask the group that went to Peru last year about the Bushmaster that was found late after people got tired and went to camp.
Ok, but surely if you think hard enough you can recall some times as well when you busted your ass all night, only to come back and find that someone else found something awesome while on their way to the bathroom or while eating dinner. I know I can - probably more often than I've found something great at the end of a crappy night. I guess it all comes down to perspective, really. I think either way, the life lesson is that you'll never be happy if you get hung up on the things you're missing out on, because everybody is ALWAYS missing out on something at any given moment. You might miss the Bushmaster, but the people who see the Bushmaster are also missing out on a Jaguar or an Anaconda or any one of a limitless number of possibilities.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by AndyO'Connor »

A very cool guy I once met said "Snakes are where you find 'em, they're like gold." ~Bill

Also, if you are having a slow night road cruising, or a slow day hiking the trail, someone saying "Let's head back, we are just wasting gas/time" will sometimes yeild a find.

The repeated idea of not finding something all day until you walk back to the car is a life applicable lesson, sometimes the greatest finds occur when you are not looking for them.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by hellihooks »

AndyO'Connor wrote: The repeated idea of not finding something all day until you walk back to the car is a life applicable lesson, sometimes the greatest finds occur when you are not looking for them.
In conversations with that same 'cool guy' (who BTW is very religious) we concluded that it is a matter of 'surrender'... after trying all day by your own best efforts, you give it over to the God of your understanding, and leave it to Him/Her... and only then will your efforts be rewarded. (typically, on the way back to the car, after you have given up)

In other words... for people of 'faith'... prayer seems to work. :) jim

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

"Watch out for the sharp end"

The legendary W.H. Martin

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by gbin »

hellihooks wrote:... it is a matter of 'surrender'... after trying all day by your own best efforts, you give it over to the God of your understanding, and leave it to Him/Her... and only then will your efforts be rewarded...
Seems to me that believing god(s) provide earthly rewards to the faithful goes hand in hand with believing god(s) inflict earthly punishments on the apostate. At best that's a rather vainglorious proof of piety ("I scored that winning touchdown because God loves me - apparently more than he does my opponents."), and at worst an attempt to manipulate the gullible ("The hurricane struck there because that's a wickedly sinful city."). I really think it's long past the time when we should have given up our superstitious beliefs that god(s) enabled us to find that snake, hit that home run, win that pie-baking contest...

Gerry

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Sam Sweet
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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Sam Sweet »

I believe that Mick Jagger (of all people) had the correct response to Gerry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyK1bZZ7E-s

20 red lights indeed.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by gbin »

That's always been a favorite song of mine, Sam, and in no small part due to that line.

Very well done, sir! :thumb:

Gerry

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by brick911 »

captainjack0000 wrote:
brick911 wrote: I end up herping way too much.
Wait, is this even possible? :?:
I think so. I feel like its a true addiction. I'm not making light of more "common" addictions like drug and alcohol abuse. But I often neglect responsibilities to herp.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by hellihooks »

gbin wrote:
hellihooks wrote:... it is a matter of 'surrender'... after trying all day by your own best efforts, you give it over to the God of your understanding, and leave it to Him/Her... and only then will your efforts be rewarded...
Seems to me that believing god(s) provide earthly rewards to the faithful goes hand in hand with believing god(s) inflict earthly punishments on the apostate. At best that's a rather vainglorious proof of piety ("I scored that winning touchdown because God loves me - apparently more than he does my opponents."), and at worst an attempt to manipulate the gullible ("The hurricane struck there because that's a wickedly sinful city."). I really think it's long past the time when we should have given up our superstitious beliefs that god(s) enabled us to find that snake, hit that home run, win that pie-baking contest...

Gerry
If some form of 'divine command' theory works for someone... who am I to say they are wrong? I respect people's right to decide stuff like that, for themselves. the thread is about how herping relates to life. and like it or not, a large percentage of people (including herpers) hold strong religious beliefs. They should have as much right to 'pray' for success as other folks who buy into wearing a 'lucky shirt'... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol:

The Church says the World is flat, but I know it is round for I have seen it's shadow on the Moon...and I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church Ferdinand Magellon

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by gbin »

hellihooks wrote:If some form of 'divine command' theory works for someone... who am I to say they are wrong? I respect people's right to decide stuff like that, for themselves. the thread is about how herping relates to life. and like it or not, a large percentage of people (including herpers) hold strong religious beliefs. They should have as much right to 'pray' for success as other folks who buy into wearing a 'lucky shirt'... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol:
First, "hold[ing] strong religious beliefs" does not equate to believing that god(s) played a part in your finding a snake, getting a promotion at work or being asked out to the dance by the gal you're sweet on, so let's not pretend that I naysaid anything but the latter foolishness.

Second, I agree with you, Jim, that folks have a right to decide for themselves whether to hold and promote such superstitious beliefs - even the genuinely harmful ones, such as beliefs that god(s) have or will wreak some terrible vengeance on earth for the behavior of this or that group of people of whom the believer disapproves (sadly, not all superstitions are anywhere near as harmless as belief in a lucky shirt, particularly when those superstitions are blended with religion) - just as I have a right to criticize those beliefs when I hear them promoted. It's debatable whether these message boards are an appropriate place to proselytize folks, but I think all of us probably agree that one person has as much right to free speech on an issue that's been raised here as does another. In other words: You can espouse such nonsense if you wish, but don't think that I can't then decry it as such.

Gerry

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by intermedius »

Hans Breuer (twoton) wrote:Thank you! And Jeans on the Road? :-)
Road cruising can produce some interesting things :lol:

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Josh Holbrook »

First, "hold[ing] strong religious beliefs" does not equate to believing that god(s) played a part in your finding a snake, getting a promotion at work or being asked out to the dance by the gal you're sweet on, so let's not pretend that I naysaid anything but the latter foolishness.
Not necessarily, but it certainly can; especially if you're one of ones that follow that Jewish Rabbi from the first century; it is written: "He works all thing together for the good of those who love him and are called according to His purposes." Some might differ in opinion on whether that includes small scale 'unimportant' day-to-day things like hiking up a cool find or nailing that big promotion; but I would argue that if there is a God, and if he's in complete control of all things like the Bible claims he is, then there's no such thing as an "unimportant" event. Not to say that herpers who are Christians will always have stellar finds and worldly prosperity/etc., but the Bible is pretty clear that God does listen and cares about humanity (especially non-Christians,) and listens intently when they talk to him; even if His answer isn't always "yes." I'd challenge you next time you're herping with a Christian to have him pray for good finds during the trip... If the day is a bust (or even mediocre) I'd say the Christian has some soul-searching to do; if it really is stellar, then you might do the same.
gbin wrote:Seems to me that believing god(s) provide earthly rewards to the faithful goes hand in hand with believing god(s) inflict earthly punishments on the apostate. At best that's a rather vainglorious proof of piety ("I scored that winning touchdown because God loves me - apparently more than he does my opponents."), and at worst an attempt to manipulate the gullible ("The hurricane struck there because that's a wickedly sinful city."). I really think it's long past the time when we should have given up our superstitious beliefs that god(s) enabled us to find that snake, hit that home run, win that pie-baking contest...

Gerry
The biggest assumption there is that theology is human in origin; which is certainly up to debate (for the time being) - but suffice it to say if the Judeo-Christian narrative of an all-powerful God is true, then he has every right to do with His creation what he pleases; including bless His followers, or bring His wrath upon the wicked. Interestingly enough, the Bible even provides a "third way" in terms of reasons for suffering... It is written that Jesus was asked if a certain man was struck with blindness was coming under judgement for his sins or his fathers; Jesus said that it was for neither, but so that God would be glorified, and he promptly healed him.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Antonsrkn »

I'd challenge you next time you're herping with a Christian to have him pray for good finds during the trip... If the day is a bust (or even mediocre) I'd say the Christian has some soul-searching to do; if it really is stellar, then you might do the same.
So if the day is bad its just cause youre not herping with a good enough Christian, and if the day is great its thanks to God and you should become a Christian if you aren't already. I try to avoid any theological debates because people are just too touchy when it comes to this and Im not one to tell others how they should live their lives and what they should believe in. But you have to see the flaw in this logic? The most devout Christian in the world can pray until she/he's blue in the face its not going to help them find their target if conditions are wrong or if they don't know what they're doing when it comes to herping.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by gbin »

Josh Holbrook wrote:
First, "hold[ing] strong religious beliefs" does not equate to believing that god(s) played a part in your finding a snake, getting a promotion at work or being asked out to the dance by the gal you're sweet on, so let's not pretend that I naysaid anything but the latter foolishness.
Not necessarily, but it certainly can...
A ridiculous argument in defense of a dishonest debate tactic. The idea that god(s) direct every footfall can be a strongly held religious belief, but so can a great many other ideas that have absolutely nothing to do with that particular foolish notion. I'm not up on the formal terms for various bogus arguments, but portraying criticism aimed at something very specific (e.g. a belief that god(s) take a direct hand in people finding snakes, winning ballgames, etc.) as if were instead aimed at something very broad and diverse (e.g. "hold[ing] strong religious beliefs" in general) in order to drum up opposition to it is certainly a well-known type of bogus argument.
Josh Holbrook wrote:... I'd challenge you next time you're herping with a Christian to have him pray for good finds during the trip... If the day is a bust (or even mediocre) I'd say the Christian has some soul-searching to do; if it really is stellar, then you might do the same...
And I'd challenge you to look up the word "coincidence." :roll:

I'd also point out to you that: 1) you're making an assumption that I'm not Christian myself, though in actuality you have no idea what if any religion I belong to, and 2) you're implying that all Christians believe that prayer will bring them earthly desires (and that for particularly good Christians, it will work), which is decidedly not true. Indeed, you appear to feel entitled to define Christianity for all Christians. You might also look up the word "hubris." Your world view is not by any means the world's world view.
Josh Holbrook wrote:... if the Judeo-Christian narrative of an all-powerful God is true, then he has every right to do with His creation what he pleases; including bless His followers, or bring His wrath upon the wicked...
I never said otherwise. What I said is that it's at best vainglorious to profess that all-powerful god(s) stoop to helping you find more snakes, score more touchdowns or what-have-you, and that this assertion's evil twin - that said god(s) wreak earthly vengeance on those who behave otherwise than you feel they should (apparently along with any men, women and children who might be in their vicinity, be they guilty or innocent) - is at worst manipulative. As I said to Jim, feel free to proselytize to your heart's desire (whether or not this is really the place for such), and I'll feel free to criticize it.
Josh Holbrook wrote:... It is written that Jesus was asked if a certain man was struck with blindness was coming under judgement for his sins or his fathers; Jesus said that it was for neither, but so that God would be glorified, and he promptly healed him.
Oh, right, I think I heard about that back when Paul Harvey used to do his "The Rest of the Story" radio program. After Jesus had moseyed along, didn't the guy's restored sight enable him to see that his wife had contracted leprosy and to abandon her before he caught it, too, and to see that his daughter was reddening her lips with berry juice and then join the crowd in stoning her to death for her obvious harlotry? :roll: Glorified, indeed.
Antonsrkn wrote:... But you have to see the flaw in this logic?...
No, Anton, I'm afraid some folks' world view doesn't require them to see any inherent flaws there might be in it. :(

It's as I said recently in another thread on another FHF board:

"The problem isn't generally people's belief in their god(s), it's their belief in their god(s)' belief in them." :?

Gerry

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

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Image

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by gbin »

Careful, Hans! Go herping with folks who say things like that and you might never find a snake again! ;)

Getting back to the topic of this thread...

I learned to treat the habitat more gently, ever more gently.

I learned that animals don't always behave the way that everyone and all the books and papers say they behave (for example, with respect to the times of day, temperatures, locations, etc. at which they're present and active).

I learned that everyone makes mistakes, but by far most people (not all) are lucky enough to get away with them until they acquire sufficient age and experience to cease reckless behavior and thereby substantially reduce the frequency and seriousness of their mistakes.

Gerry

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

gbin wrote:Careful, Hans! Go herping with folks who say things like that and you might never find a snake again! ;)
That might account for the abysmal record of my solo outings :-)

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Kyle from Carolina »

BDSkinner said:
"I've also made it a personal project to become an amateur everything, a very well rounded naturalist."

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. Although my favorite thing to look for are the herps-proper, one thing I learned is to take notice of the invert-herps, feathered-herps, and photosynthesizing-herps. This way I never strike out!
And while this thread is still on the subject of blasphemy....(The odonates, lepidoptera, and hymenoptera are AS COOL AS herps. But I learned that herping so I'm allowed to say that...)

-Kyle

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Antonsrkn wrote:
I'd challenge you next time you're herping with a Christian to have him pray for good finds during the trip... If the day is a bust (or even mediocre) I'd say the Christian has some soul-searching to do; if it really is stellar, then you might do the same.
So if the day is bad its just cause youre not herping with a good enough Christian, and if the day is great its thanks to God and you should become a Christian if you aren't already. I try to avoid any theological debates because people are just too touchy when it comes to this and Im not one to tell others how they should live their lives and what they should believe in. But you have to see the flaw in this logic? The most devout Christian in the world can pray until she/he's blue in the face its not going to help them find their target if conditions are wrong or if they don't know what they're doing when it comes to herping.
Fraid not, if you read my sentence or two in there: "Not to say that herpers who are Christians will always have stellar finds and worldly prosperity/etc., but the Bible is pretty clear that God does listen and cares about humanity (especially non-Christians,) and listens intently when they talk to him; even if His answer isn't always "yes." "

On the contrary, despite being committed to following Christ, I don't think my accomplishments in terms of herping are all that great. Even farther; Jesus made it pretty clear that the first Christians (and many generations since) may just suffer poverty, mockery, and sometimes persecution and death. However, I do believe that God is one who pursues and seeks out those who don't follow him, even to lengths of intervention in silly things to get them to wake up to His presence.

gbin wrote:A ridiculous argument in defense of a dishonest debate tactic. The idea that god(s) direct every footfall can be a strongly held religious belief, but so can a great many other ideas that have absolutely nothing to do with that particular foolish notion. I'm not up on the formal terms for various bogus arguments, but portraying criticism aimed at something very specific (e.g. a belief that god(s) take a direct hand in people finding snakes, winning ballgames, etc.) as if were instead aimed at something very broad and diverse (e.g. "hold[ing] strong religious beliefs" in general) in order to drum up opposition to it is certainly a well-known type of bogus argument.
I disagree, I think Jesus pretty clearly taught that God's care for "petty things" was extant. For example: "“Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you?" or perhaps, "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."

It may seem hypocritical to say "Yes, I pray for good fortunes before and during every herping trip," in light of the big problems that plague the world (poverty, human suffering, slavery). The logic behind that is "Why would God care about the little insignificant things with all that junk going on?" I think it's evident, if one accepts the Bible as an (or the) authority on theology, that God is infinite and thus able to care for little things and big, important things; and additionally some of the little things might have big, important implications in the long run.
gbin wrote: I'd also point out to you that: 1) you're making an assumption that I'm not Christian myself, though in actuality you have no idea what if any religion I belong to, and 2) you're implying that all Christians believe that prayer will bring them earthly desires (and that for particularly good Christians, it will work), which is decidedly not true. Indeed, you appear to feel entitled to define Christianity for all Christians. You might also look up the word "hubris." Your world view is not by any means the world's world view.
On your points:

1.) See #2

2.) You're reading a lot into my writing. . . No, not Christians do not necessarily believe that prayer will bring them earthly desires (see above), nor do I believe that getting any such desire (if God sees fit to get it) is based on how good or bad a person is: God gives out of his grace, not of human works. And no, I don't define Christianity for all Christians, but I do believe that words should have meanings, and (generally) a Christian is defined as someone who believes in the teachings of Christ. This would include all that about God caring for sparrows and anything else Christ taught. There is actually a lot of liberty in many of His teachings, but someone who does not actually believe His teachings (and I would argue attempt to follow them out) is no more a Christian than someone who's seen a couple Croc Hunter episodes is a Herpetologist.


gbin wrote:I never said otherwise. What I said is that it's at best vainglorious to profess that all-powerful god(s) stoop to helping you find more snakes, score more touchdowns or what-have-you, and that this assertion's evil twin - that said god(s) wreak earthly vengeance on those who behave otherwise than you feel they should (apparently along with any men, women and children who might be in their vicinity, be they guilty or innocent) - is at worst manipulative.

Actually, one of the bigger themes throughout the whole Bible is basically God stooping to our level, our silly little day-to-day things in order to restore the world. That's what the whole Jesus story is all about: God stooping to the level of being contained in Flesh and Blood, being born in a stable and touching His creations.

gbin wrote: Oh, right, I think I heard about that back when Paul Harvey used to do his "The Rest of the Story" radio program. After Jesus had moseyed along, didn't the guy's restored sight enable him to see that his wife had contracted leprosy and to abandon her before he caught it, too, and to see that his daughter was reddening her lips with berry juice and then join the crowd in stoning her to death for her obvious harlotry? :roll: Glorified, indeed.
Ahh, so it ends with open mockery of my faith. Oh well, I forgive you. You are, of course, as welcomed to your opinion as I am mine, just don't expect in an open forum to not have your comments discusses and debated.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by cbernz »

I don't see any difference at all between praying for snakes and any of the other rituals mentioned above (wearing lucky clothes, walking to the car, forgetting a camera, bringing an amateur, etc). These are all just small ways of relinquishing a bit of control, and whether or not you believe they have any effect on the outside world, they certainly can have an effect on your experience of the world. The most memorable finds for most people are the ones that are the least expected - things they found when they weren't super focussed for whatever reason (weather, conditions, habitat, fatigue, other tasks) and weren't working so hard to control what they saw. It's not a coincidence that people create rituals which involve giving control to a god or a hat or a missing camera. They are trying to recreate that experience of discovering something unexpected or surprising or wonderful that you can only get if you turn off a tiny piece of your logical mind and just let yourself exist without putting too much expectation on yourself or the world. The ritual probably isn't going to make you see more stuff, but it is going to enhance your enjoyment of what you do see, and create a better memory, which is probably the most important thing of all.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by John Martin »

My, my, my... this may qualify for one of the most derailed threads ever! I personally am not even gonna begin to get into the religious arguments. (Possibly I am not that religious, bible-wise :D ). I do consider myself spiritual, but in my own way, not in the sense of "the novel" (I'll probably catch hell for that one). I have thoroughly enjoyed everyone's input thus far - some real gems here in fact. I just gotta say that the following quote really resonated with me. Way too late for me to follow this advice, but damn! I wish I'd had the foresight to do this decades ago when I was much younger.
....journal all herping trips. not the scientific stuff just the trip itself. do this at the end of every day. when you are old and gray you can read your journals and relive many fond memories.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Josh Holbrook »

John Martin wrote:My, my, my... this may qualify for one of the most derailed threads ever! I personally am not even gonna begin to get into the religious arguments. (Possibly I am not that religious, bible-wise :D ). I do consider myself spiritual, but in my own way, not in the sense of "the novel" (I'll probably catch hell for that one). I have thoroughly enjoyed everyone's input thus far - some real gems here in fact. I just gotta say that the following quote really resonated with me. Way too late for me to follow this advice, but damn! I wish I'd had the foresight to do this decades ago when I was much younger.
....journal all herping trips. not the scientific stuff just the trip itself. do this at the end of every day. when you are old and gray you can read your journals and relive many fond memories.
Really good advice, in my opinion. To that I'll add be detailed about it; what might sound like a given or minutia in a journal entry may help a lot in recapturing your experience when you look back.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by gbin »

Josh Holbrook wrote:... the Bible is pretty clear that God does listen and cares about humanity (especially non-Christians,) and listens intently when they talk to him..."
Right, and of course "listen[ing] intently" and "car[ing]" equates to "helping the sufficiently pious find a snake/make a three-point basket/enjoy other earthly rewards, at least some of the time." Why, it says so right there, in the Gospel according to Josh! :roll:
Josh Holbrook wrote:
gbin wrote:A ridiculous argument in defense of a dishonest debate tactic. The idea that god(s) direct every footfall can be a strongly held religious belief, but so can a great many other ideas that have absolutely nothing to do with that particular foolish notion. I'm not up on the formal terms for various bogus arguments, but portraying criticism aimed at something very specific (e.g. a belief that god(s) take a direct hand in people finding snakes, winning ballgames, etc.) as if were instead aimed at something very broad and diverse (e.g. "hold[ing] strong religious beliefs" in general) in order to drum up opposition to it is certainly a well-known type of bogus argument.
I disagree...
Josh Holbrook wrote:... no, I don't define Christianity for all Christians...
No, no, of course you don't. How could anyone ever think otherwise? :roll:
Josh Holbrook wrote:... one of the bigger themes throughout the whole Bible is basically God stooping to our level, our silly little day-to-day things in order to restore the world. That's what the whole Jesus story is all about: God stooping to the level of being contained in Flesh and Blood, being born in a stable and touching His creations.
Yeah, birth of Christ, help finding a snake, same thing... :roll:
Josh Holbrook wrote:Ahh, so it ends with open mockery of my faith...
Right again, mocking your interpretation of the Bible is one and the same as mocking Christianity. You are the ultimate arbiter of that which is and is not Christian, after all. :roll:

Sorry, Josh, but sometimes some people demonstrate that mockery is really about all they deserve. I didn't bring religious BS to this thread (Jim did), and I didn't heap way more religious BS upon it once the initial dump had been objected to (you did, repeatedly). You can try to claim that I'm calling Christianity in general religious BS, but that's just more nonsense from you. I'm clearly, specifically talking first about the belief that both you and Jim have espoused that god(s) help the sufficiently pious in finding snakes and other trivial earthly matters, and second about your grandiose belief that you can define Christianity for all Christians.

I also consider your religious proselytizing here to be a mockery of the website's intent. (And mockery often deserves mockery.) Or are you going to pretend, too, that Scott - this website's owner - has never asked you to lay off this stuff so that these message boards can function as he intends?

Oh well, you might yet deserve many more repetitions of mockery for what you're doing here, but I've already done more than my share and after this message I'm out. Feel free to use the last word to make more bogus assertions about what I've said here and what qualifies or disqualifies someone as a Christian per your gospel, and maybe to quote some favorite piece or dozen pieces of scripture. :roll:
cbernz wrote:I don't see any difference at all between praying for snakes and any of the other rituals mentioned above...
For the most part I agree with you, and I tend to just ignore superstitions I see as personal quirks to which everyone is entitled, be s/he so inclined. But as I pointed out earlier, there is decidedly a dark side to them as well, in particular when people blend superstition and religion. The hateful, manipulative garbage that folks such as Pat Robertson regularly spew is a natural extension of what Jim initially espoused, and Josh provided ample proof of this point in his posts. And our host here at FHF has indeed made it clear time and time again that he doesn't want these message boards used for religious proselytizing. It is disruptive and divisive in the extreme, and the earlier days of these boards - when Josh used to do much more of this stuff here - are ample proof of that, too.

Gerry

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by hellihooks »

Well... I guess I'm the one who derailed the train, by bringing up 'religion', but as an observer on how herping relates to life in general, I stand by my claim that folks have the right to believe what they want, and 'faith' has it's place in the 'big picture'.

Every major religion has at it's core some version of the 'Golden Rule'... 'do unto others, live and let live', etc. Which is why I'm moving more and more towards 'insitu' shots...my pics aren't as 'stunning' but I feel better as I walk away... :)

And when you get out in the field with folks of a general 'like mind'... herping can be a very fulfilling experience. This video by our Chapter VP, Owen, IMO sums it up nicely:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7nd6b1R ... lpage#t=14

Look for the best in every person you meet, just as you look at every herp you see as a unique example... spend time with the ones you like, and move past the ones you care less for, but again... do unto (ALL of) them as you would have them do unto you... jim

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by BillMcGighan »

Well... I guess I'm the one who derailed the train, by bringing up 'religion', but as an observer on how herping relates to life in general, I stand by my claim that folks have the right to believe what they want, and 'faith' has its place in the 'big picture'.
You definitely touched the third rail, derailing this topic.

I support the right of people to believe what they want. It’s personal, their belief system, not science or fact,

BUT,

I would submit that this herpers’ forum is a conglomerate of scientists and lay people, religious and not, global warmers and flat earth people, serious folks and light hearted, left and right, tall/short, fat/slim, etc., etc., and all joined by a common interest.

With our currently polarized, adversarial world, conversations that enter into the domains of political, religious, racial, sexual preference, gun rights, etc., though certainly most interesting and important, serve only to cause divisions on this venue, not unity.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Josh Holbrook »

gbin wrote: Right, and of course "listen[ing] intently" and "car[ing]" equates to "helping the sufficiently pious find a snake/make a three-point basket/enjoy other earthly rewards, at least some of the time." Why, it says so right there, in the Gospel according to Josh! :roll:
Actually, no, this is according to the what is generally regarded for Christians as either the ultimate (for protestants) or one of the pinnacle (for Catholics) authorities on matters of faith and conduct: "Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God." I don't decide what get's put in the Bible.
gbin wrote:Sorry, Josh, but sometimes some people demonstrate that mockery is really about all they deserve. I didn't bring religious BS to this thread (Jim did), and I didn't heap way more religious BS upon it once the initial dump had been objected to (you did, repeatedly). I'm clearly, specifically talking first about the belief that both you and Jim have espoused that god(s) help the sufficiently pious in finding snakes and other trivial earthly matters...
Yeah, but Jim and I were both pretty involved the thread prior to that, you were the one who jumped in as the PC police (your first post on this thread) as soon as some mention was made of a supreme being and tried to shame people who believe that God might actually care about them and listen to their prayers even if it is something silly like finding snakes. Who's the one proselytizing then? You've tried to denigrate and shame those who hold specific religious views, while I've merely maintained that they are legitimate given our presuppositions. I don't recall once saying "You godless folks out there should come forward to the altar and blah, blah, blah." So, let me officially respond to your proselytizing and say "No, sorry, I wont join the Church of 'God-doesn't-really-give-a-crap-about-your-everyday-life."

gbin wrote:Or are you going to pretend, too, that Scott - this website's owner - has never asked you to lay off this stuff so that these message boards can function as he intends?
Nope; I've never heard or read such stuff from him. I don't expect to; it's not something that bring up - unless someone openly mocks my faith, because I don't believe I should have to read that without being given a chance to respond. If you can mock my beliefs, I should be able to civilly respond. The only other exception to this is once or twice when I've made a field herping report (the real point of this forum, which I've never seen out of you) and mentioned my faith because it's an important part of my life an thus my field herping; and even then, it is hardly proselytizing and is more a matter of telling the whole story (see here, for instance: http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=14430 )

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Josh Holbrook »

BillMcGighan wrote:
Well... I guess I'm the one who derailed the train, by bringing up 'religion', but as an observer on how herping relates to life in general, I stand by my claim that folks have the right to believe what they want, and 'faith' has its place in the 'big picture'.
You definitely touched the third rail, derailing this topic.

I support the right of people to believe what they want. It’s personal, their belief system, not science or fact,

BUT,

I would submit that this herpers’ forum is a conglomerate of scientists and lay people, religious and not, global warmers and flat earth people, serious folks and light hearted, left and right, tall/short, fat/slim, etc., etc., and all joined by a common interest.

With our currently polarized, adversarial world, conversations that enter into the domains of political, religious, racial, sexual preference, gun rights, etc., though certainly most interesting and important, serve only to cause divisions on this venue, not unity.

I agree Bill, but I hope you see that I'm not trying to be divisive, nor am I ever 'preachy' or whatever word you'd like to use in person or online, but I do feel that we should be able to counter mockeries when they are presented. Correct me if I'm wrong, you know I respect you, and I try my best to be teachable.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by cbernz »

Oh, come on now! How is this in any way divisive?
hellihooks wrote:In other words... for people of 'faith'... prayer seems to work. :) jim
That's not proselytizing, that's just relating an opinion. THIS is proselytizing:
gbin wrote:I really think it's long past the time when we should have given up our superstitious beliefs that god(s) enabled us to find that snake, hit that home run, win that pie-baking contest...
Look, I don't like Pat Robertson either, but throwing a shit fit every time someone mentions God is just giving ammunition to the wingnuts who believe there's a cabal of homosexual atheist Jewish scientists intent on destroying their way of life.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by gbin »

cbernz wrote:Oh, come on now! How is this in any way divisive?
hellihooks wrote:In other words... for people of 'faith'... prayer seems to work. :) jim
That's not proselytizing, that's just relating an opinion. THIS is proselytizing:
gbin wrote:I really think it's long past the time when we should have given up our superstitious beliefs that god(s) enabled us to find that snake, hit that home run, win that pie-baking contest...
Look, I don't like Pat Robertson either, but throwing a shit fit every time someone mentions God is just giving ammunition to the wingnuts who believe there's a cabal of homosexual atheist Jewish scientists intent on destroying their way of life.
I didn't anticipate contributing any further to this off-topic discussion, but then I didn't anticipate anyone other than Josh grossly misrepresenting the situation or my part in it. For the record:

- The above quote from Jim (hellihooks) was not nearly all he said, nor would it by itself have prompted me to respond.

- Josh's follow-up posts, by any honest assessment a very natural - many of us would even say predictable - progression from what Jim posted, were also conveniently ignored by cbernz as well.

- And of course, I didn't come anywhere near "throwing a [$]hit fit" about it, nor do I respond (at all, let alone with criticism) anywhere near "every time someone mentions God." I offered a fairly brief and quite pointed criticism of what Jim said that I specifically disagreed with, and would happily have left it at that had Josh not then repeatedly responded with a whole bunch more religious proselytizing with various misrepresentations of my position mixed in to try to falsely garner support for his own. Even still I was walking away after a couple iterations of pointing this out - until cbernz decided to join Josh in grossly misrepresenting things. And even now I'm content to depart leaving the last (false) word to cbernz along with Josh, having pointed out the mischief that cbernz as well as Josh is up to.

It genuinely surprises me that you would blatantly lie about a situation/the people in it because you're unhappy with the posts of one of those people, cbernz. I thought better of you than that and I'm embarrassed for you, no exaggeration. :oops:

Gerry

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by BillMcGighan »

JH
I agree Bill, but I hope you see that I'm not trying to be divisive, nor am I ever 'preachy' or whatever word you'd like to use in person or online, but I do feel that we should be able to counter mockeries when they are presented. Correct me if I'm wrong, you know I respect you, and I try my best to be teachable.
Of course :thumb: , as is your right, and Jim's to bring it up, and Gerry's to defend his view, as is cbernz's right to present a middle view, but the fact that you all felt such a strong emotion and felt you had to defend yourself is the very point I'm trying to make. All good folks - all sincere views - all argued with text that can be read in more antagonistic ways without facial expressions and body language to help communicate - all a recipe for conflict.


Adding fuel to the fire (stamp collecting) that the current modern world has thrust upon us is that the lunatic fringe on all the controversial subjects has such loud voices to the point that rational folks in the middle ground are alienated from and by both sides.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Adam Cooner »

BillMcGighan wrote:I learned that when a herd of deer runs across the road in front of you at 2 AM, continue to apply your brakes, because there is often a straggler that wants nothing more than to join the herd!
Cliff learned this one the hard way. The first time I dragged him to Conecuh a deer ran out in front of his Jeep on CR 24. Before I could finish yelling, "They come in twos!" Cliff hit the gas, and the deer hit the bumper.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by cbernz »

Gerry,

I know nothing about your feud with Josh. I wasn't commenting on it and I won't comment on it, except maybe to point out that you mention Josh's name 6 times in response to my post which had nothing to do with Josh or his posts. All I was saying was that Jim's post was essentially no different from anyone else's and that it was unfair to blame him for starting the religious war. Yeah, I mistakenly cut out the first part of his post, because it actually seems to me like the least preachy part of it:
hellihooks wrote:
AndyO'Connor wrote: The repeated idea of not finding something all day until you walk back to the car is a life applicable lesson, sometimes the greatest finds occur when you are not looking for them.
In conversations with that same 'cool guy' (who BTW is very religious) we concluded that it is a matter of 'surrender'... after trying all day by your own best efforts, you give it over to the God of your understanding, and leave it to Him/Her... and only then will your efforts be rewarded. (typically, on the way back to the car, after you have given up)

In other words... for people of 'faith'... prayer seems to work. :) jim
The point being to relax and stop trying so hard. "God of your understanding" isn't the same thing as saying "God" or "Jesus," it's just a way of saying "whatever you believe in," whether it's Jesus, Buddha, a lucky hat, a lucky friend, a drained camera battery, or pure chance.

I guarantee I share many of your qualms about organized religion, and I agree that this isn't a good forum to have extended religious debates. However, I really don't see how Jim's post in any way qualifies as proselytizing, and I don't think people should have to automatically censor words like "God" or "prayer" out of their posts.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by hellihooks »

In that Andy mentioned a wise person he once met, it brought to mind the fact that this person, who I know fairly well, operates by a ' divine command' theory that may not be the norm in this venue, but is in fact likely held by more here than would care to publicly admit it (lest they are ridiculed/bashed for it)

Even if you consider religion a superstition, illogical or just flat-out dumb...I don't see any other silly illogical claim made here (lucky shirt, beginner's luck, etc) getting slammed... so neither (IMO) should religious beliefs. I respect those who stand up for their beliefs, without attacking others, for theirs.

On the flip side of that very coin, I also know someone who steadfastly believes that he manifests the herps he wants to see, through concentration and visualization. He will sit on his truck bed, in the dark, and 'focus his energy' on manifesting what he wants to see... turning on a spotlight every 30-45 min to see what his efforts have produced. Do I buy it? No. Do I respect his right to believe it... yes. Am I (admittedly) somewhat flummoxed and amazed at the success he has... yes :shock:

His beliefs on how it works, (BTW) are based on quantum flux, 'observations shaping reality', and other very 'high-brow' theoretical quasi-scientific jargon/theories... :roll: I just smile and nod... ;)

Me... I'm a Dyslexic Agnostic...I'm not sure there's a Dog... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by gbin »

Ok, just one more time for emphasis of what's going on in cbernz' recent posts:
cbernz wrote:I know nothing about your feud with Josh....
And yet you choose to mislabel our interaction here a "feud" rather than the fairly straightforward disagreement it was: Jim said something I took issue with, we each replied to the other once more after that, and thereafter and for the bulk of what I've posted here I was responding to Josh heaping on both the religious proselytizing and gross misrepresentations of the situation and my part in it - until you decided to join him in posting your own gross misrepresentations, of course, which you've continued in your most recent missive. So are you and I "feuding" now, too? :roll:
cbernz wrote:... you mention Josh's name 6 times in response to my post which had nothing to do with Josh or his posts...
Uh huh, except that the majority of my complaint pertained to Josh's, not Jim's, religious proselytizing, and of course you had to ignore that (as well as trim Jim's post) to try to falsely make it look as if I was "crying wolf."
cbernz wrote:I guarantee I share many of your qualms about organized religion...
And now you're attributing to me "many... qualms about organized religion" though in fact I have not expressed such qualms either here nor to you in private, i.e. you have no real idea what I think of organized religion.
cbernz wrote:... I don't think people should have to automatically censor words like "God" or "prayer" out of their posts.
Gee, that sounds awfully reasonable! So reasonable, I suppose, that it doesn't matter that I never suggested that people should censor "God" or "prayer" out of their posts, nor do I feel that way. :roll: I feel exactly the way I have represented myself in this thread: If people say/do something in this forum that I take issue with, I may post a criticism of it. (And I'm certainly clear and specific enough in my criticisms to be understood by people who actually care to do so.) This is of course a right that we all enjoy and almost all freely exercise here. But apparently you now feel it somehow serves your purpose to repeatedly, blatantly misrepresent me as using these message boards to wage some kind of unceasing, knee-jerk campaign against religion and the religious (despite your not even knowing whether I might be one of that group, myself). Congratulations, I guess, as I suppose you might have managed to convince one or two people who are paying more attention to your (and before you, Josh's) lies about me than to what I've actually said and done. I suspect it's more likely, though, that instead you've simply greatly lowered others esteem for you - as you certainly have mine for you - via your dishonest attacks.

Ok, through reiteration I've abundantly exposed your repeated gross misrepresentations now, too, cbernz. Hopefully that will tip subsequent readers off that they should be wary of how you're representing things and look for themselves to see how things really are (assuming they care one way or another, of course). If some are still fooled by you, so be it. You can get back to your BS about me now, and I'll try not to get in your way any more.

Tsk...
hellihooks wrote:Even if you consider religion a superstition, illogical or just flat-out dumb...I don't see any other silly illogical claim made here (lucky shirt, beginner's luck, etc) getting slammed... so neither (IMO) should religious beliefs...
Maybe the dyslexia you mentioned prevented you from comprehending what I said (at least a couple of times) on this subject before, Jim:
gbin wrote:... I tend to just ignore superstitions I see as personal quirks to which everyone is entitled, be s/he so inclined. But as I pointed out earlier, there is decidedly a dark side to them as well, in particular when people blend superstition and religion. The hateful, manipulative garbage that folks such as Pat Robertson regularly spew is a natural extension of what Jim initially espoused, and Josh provided ample proof of this point in his posts. And our host here at FHF has indeed made it clear time and time again that he doesn't want these message boards used for religious proselytizing. It is disruptive and divisive in the extreme...
If you have read and do understand what I'm saying but for some reason(s) disagree with it, you might try expressing that disagreement in a meaningful way rather than just pretending that I didn't say anything.

Gerry

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by hellihooks »

cbernz wrote:
The point being to relax and stop trying so hard. "God of your understanding" isn't the same thing as saying "God" or "Jesus," it's just a way of saying "whatever you believe in," whether it's Jesus, Buddha, a lucky hat, a lucky friend, a drained camera battery, or pure chance.
:thumb: I was praying to the 'Rosy God(s)'... Bill to his 'God.' Having a tremendous amount of respect for Bill, I allowed that (as per his claim) they were likely one in the same... :crazyeyes: As for the 'We concluded' part... I was again respecting my friend's belief (by not countermanding it).

I did say that when you 'admit defeat' to the Rosy Gods, they then often favor you with a Rosy...which prompted Bill to expound upon the 'surrender' paradigm Christianity rely's so heavily upon (Not that he needed to... I founded and ran a Christian Ministry for years. :) ).

Interestingly enough... Bill flipped a boa there, that he placed in the top 3 boas he's ever flipped in his life. No boa had ever been recorded there before, and I've been back to the area roughly 6 times a year, for the last 6 years, looking for another... with 0 luck.

Maybe this year I'll try prayer again... :D

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by Kelly Mc »

I believe in the ways of dogs without a doubt.

To prove the power, in situations like this, everyone share about a dog they have known, and see what happens.

No matter what the differences are, they stop and and everyone gets on the same page of awesome lovingkindness.

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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by hellihooks »

It's funny you should say that Kelly... Gerry and I got over some earlier disagreements, by finding the common ground of a love for dogs... :crazyeyes:

Gerry... I don't want to argue over something I'm not very emotionally invested in ... my main point is/was... I respect people's right to believe what they want.
Your main point seems to be : I have the right to criticize what I DON"T believe. Bit of a difference, methinks... :| But... whatever... such is life (back on track?)... different strokes for different folks... :) jim
edit... truth be told Ger... I wasn't ignoring or failing to comprehend what you said in your last quote... I didn't bother to read it. The 'you said' then 'I said' stuff gets very tiresome, very fast. No one cares, cept the person you're arguing with... and that won't be me..: :|
well... off to the DMV, to get my truck tagged...so I can go herp in the rain, tomorrow. Anybody got any 'Rain axioms' to share? :lol: :lol:

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gbin
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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by gbin »

It's more than that I don't share the belief you were espousing, Jim, but I've already said my piece and see no point in our continuing to hash it over; you either understand where I'm coming from or you don't. I agree that people have a right to believe what they want, regardless. Let's leave it at that.

Ok, Kelly, I'll oblige - but you might not like the story I start us off with!...

I rarely remember my dreams, but the other night I had one such as I have never had before. I dreamt that I was locked in a fairly small cage with a hyena, and that my concern wasn't over the hyena's aggressiveness - it seemed shy, maybe, but not unfriendly - but over the fact that it kept defecating again and again and thereby leaving it and myself less and less clean cage space in which to sit. The smell was horrendous. I told my wife about this dream the next day and, after saying "I wish you wouldn't tell me about stuff like that!", she offered her thoughts on how it might have come about. See, our 10-year-old German shorthaired pointer, Fay, always sleeps by our bedside, generally right by my bedside. Fay's always had digestive difficulties her entire life, once several years ago resulting in her getting emergency Saturday night surgery for gastric torsion and bloat and once very recently causing us to fear that we were going to lose her to a Friday night colonic torsion. Anyway, no matter what we feed her she farts, both in great frequency and with great potency. And it's been particularly bad just lately (which is probably why she came close to a colonic torsion). So, my wife pointed out... hyenas are brown and spotted just like our dog... and the hyena in my dream was raising a huge stink just as our dog was likely doing while we were sleeping... Yup, I think the mystery has been solved! :thumb:

Hey, I warned you that you probably wouldn't like it. But you'd like Fay despite the smells she produces, as she's a very sweet girl. :)

Gerry

hellihooks
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Re: What I Learned About Life from Field Herping

Post by hellihooks »

I'm neither espousing nor promoting any species of 'Divine Command theory'... to me... all religions are types of ethical theories, one may choose to believe. I Believe in the Ethical Theory I'm currently working on... which, as a unifying foundational basis... explains every other Ethical Theory... including 'Divine Command'.

Dog story...Where I now work, my supervisor Andy, has a dachshund who not only points and flushes birds... but retrieves them as well... :shock: There's a vid of him on you tube somewhere, but I don't have time to find it. maybe when I get back... although dog stories are off topic... :crazyeyes: Will I get blamed for this derailment as well...since I said I don't know if there's a Dog? :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: :lol:
RAIN ADAGES people...I'll need some by tomorrow... :D :beer: jim

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