Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

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Biker Dave
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Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Biker Dave »

I heard that a paper was recently released showing through mtDNA that there should be a huge change in Rosy Boa taxonomy and nomenclature. Basically ditching gracia for orcutti or something like that. And renaming the Rosy Boa the Three lined Boa?

Does anyone have a link to this ?

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Eric East
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Eric East »

I hope not. I really hate name changes; everyone thinks they have a better idea. If it aint broke don't fix it!

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Jeff
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Jeff »

Here....

http://www.cnah.org/pdf_files/929.pdf

Mitochondrial DNA sequences were discordant with color pattern phenotypes, recommending two species. English names are pending as I write.

Jeff

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Owen
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Owen »

High Desert Rosy Boa? ;)

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Jeff
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Jeff »

High Desert Rosy Boa?
Memory lane is resurrected. I can't even remember the names of those guys. 'Twin Terror?'

The term "rosy" is based on the pinkish bellies of the Tijuana-Ensenada coastal phase, so most Lichanura lack the namesake term.

Jeff

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Jimmy_77
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Jimmy_77 »

trivirgata = three lines, so its always been the "Three lined Boa" ;)

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azatrox
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by azatrox »

My vote is for "3 Lined Turd Snake." :)

-Kris

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chrish
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by chrish »

Eric East wrote:I hope not. I really hate name changes; everyone thinks they have a better idea. If it aint broke don't fix it!
The problem is that it is broken. The current taxonomic arrangement only makes sense in deli cups.

And are we sure that's the right paper? Seven years old doesn't seem that recent.

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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by hellihooks »

Yeah... but it's 'rosy bro's'... three lined boa bro's just sounds dumb... :? :lol: :lol: jim

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Biker Dave
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Biker Dave »

Jeff... the link isn't working...
Here....

http://www.cnah.org/pdf_files/929.pdf

Mitochondrial DNA sequences were discordant with color pattern phenotypes, recommending two species. English names are pending as I write.

Jeff

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Jeff
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Jeff »

Biker D

I just clicked on the original link, and your embedded message link, and the pdf immediately loaded from both. Try checking www.cnah.org then open the pdf library link and search under author Wood. The site has some "crap" and my home virus scanner blocks it, but I can open the website at work. It's a big "Dunno" to me.

Jeff

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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by FrogO_Oeyes »

No. The link already provided is for a paper specifically on Lichanura, and it was published in 2007. In my experience, it can take as long as 20 years for taxonomic changes to trickle down to hobbyists, although that has dropped a bit with pervasion of the internet. The link works for me. There could be a problem with your browser. You could try manually entering the URL, or right-clicking to save target as pdf and then open it. Or, again, you could go to CNAH library and search for the paper using the year and one of the author's names. You'll end up with the same link ultimately.

ThomWild
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by ThomWild »

After reading just the abstract I wondered why they only tested mtDNA and not nuclear as well. Thank you for posting the clips from the discussion section John, that addressed, at least in part, my original concern.

This is coming from someone who has only helped run lab work for molecular phylogeny projects as an undergrad so take it for what it is worth (nothing really), but I saw a noticeable disconnect between morphological studies and molecular studies and how quickly one accepted, for lack of a better term, the other. Is that still the case? Is there now at least a basic consensus of how to meld these to areas together? (I am asking out of pure ignorance and curiosity of the subject)

-Thomas

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Trey
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Trey »

ThomWild wrote:After reading just the abstract I wondered why they only tested mtDNA and not nuclear as well. Thank you for posting the clips from the discussion section John, that addressed, at least in part, my original concern.

This is coming from someone who has only helped run lab work for molecular phylogeny projects as an undergrad so take it for what it is worth (nothing really), but I saw a noticeable disconnect between morphological studies and molecular studies and how quickly one accepted, for lack of a better term, the other. Is that still the case? Is there now at least a basic consensus of how to meld these to areas together? (I am asking out of pure ignorance and curiosity of the subject)

-Thomas

I'm not sure, but I have read and heard of several people who disagree with a lot of taxonomy changes based on mtDNA.

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Biker Dave
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Biker Dave »

Oh sure! NOW it comes up!!! :beer: :beer: :beer: Thanks!

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Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck »

ThomWild wrote:I wondered why they only tested mtDNA and not nuclear as well.
It's cheaper, for one.

This type of "we know that mtDNA is not enough but we are gonna go ahead and call them species anyway until you proove otherwise anyway" sentence shows a popular trend I personally dislike. Imho, you can only accept a new species/split if the evidence is comprehensive and (more) conclusive => morphology, nu, mt, behavior, ecology, ... .

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Fieldnotes
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Fieldnotes »

Wood, D. A., Fisher, R. N., & Reeder, T. W. (2008). Novel patterns of historical isolation, dispersal, and secondary contact across Baja California in the Rosy Boa (Lichanura trivirgata). Molecular phylogenetics and evolution, 46(2), 484-502.

This paper is authoritatively NULL AND VOID! The study was blemished and a new study is currently in process.

For further details contact Fundad or the authors, i did.

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Biker Dave
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Biker Dave »

This paper is authoritatively NULL AND VOID! The study was blemished and a new study is currently in process.
In what way is it blemished? I haven't had the time to read it yet so I could use the spoiler alert to know ahead of time what to look for in the paper.

Thanks

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Kent VanSooy
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Kent VanSooy »

I found the dispersal patterns postulated in the paper to be quite interesting! It's worth a careful read for that.

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Fieldnotes
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Fieldnotes »

The transition zone for what the authors called orcutti likely occurs further south in Baja, thus making the name orcutti void. According the authors they are reevaluating their research and will be creating a second paper.

On a personal note, the boas in the San Gabriels are considered gracia (Desert Rosy), i think that is cool.

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Kent VanSooy
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Re: Rosy Boa now Three-lined Boa?

Post by Kent VanSooy »

Phew! It drove me nuts thinking there was a possibility I couldn't identify the species of snakes I was finding in good 'ol SD County. Having the transition zone farther south will also help those doing the herpetoculture thing under CDFW permit (the baja subspecies won't occur in the USA).

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