Question about Hyla Range Overlap

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MCHerper
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Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by MCHerper » May 6th, 2014, 7:09 am

Hi Folks,

I had a question that I wanted to ask the folks in the Southeast chapter. Here in NJ we have established populations of H. andersonii. Several years ago it was determined that there is a new population of H. cinerea as well, and based on what I have read, their range is potentially expanding. I know that their ranges overlap in at least one area in the Southeast, so perhaps someone here has experience or knowledge about this.

The question that I had is about range overlap. If, hypothetically, H. cinerea expanded into part of the current range for H. andersonii in NJ, what (if any) competition or breeding pressures would H. andersonii face from the overlap? Also, how readily do these two hybridize where their ranges overlap?

Thanks for any input that you can offer.

simus343
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Re: Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by simus343 » May 6th, 2014, 1:31 pm

Here in Florida they do not hybridize. Also at areas at which I have seen them in black water and on the Eglin Reservation, they do not experience breeding competition. Our ephemeral ponds have enough vegetation when they fill, and certainly enough insects down the road, that food competition between them is not an issue. Also Hyla cinerea tend to gravitate towards breeding ponds that are permanent and contain fish, where as Hyla andersonii seek out fish-less ponds along with Hyla gratiosa and other seasonal pond specialists. The biggest threat is not other Hyla, it is habitat destruction, alteration, and removing ephemeral ponds or adding fish while they are filled with water. While a large Hyla cinerea or a Hyla gratiosa may attempt to eat one, here in Florida in areas where I have seen the mentioned species, the species are perfectly capable of co-existing.

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Berkeley Boone
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Re: Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by Berkeley Boone » May 6th, 2014, 1:45 pm

simus343 wrote:Here in Florida they do not hybridize. Also at areas at which I have seen them in black water and on the Eglin Reservation, they do not experience breeding competition.
I don't think that is entirely true, Nick. Back a few years before The Crash, some of the former forum members found and posted some cinerea x andersonii hybrids. I think I have some copies of the photos they took and I will see if they will allow me to re-post them here.
They didn't, however, find bunches of them- only a few individuals over the course of a couple of years. But they were hybrids nonetheless.
The rest of my week is incredibly busy (I am staying at work with a group coming in) but early next week, I will try to find the photos and accompanying information to put up here.

Josh Holbrook, Bill McG, Jake Scott, or DDD- do you guys remember that? Or have more current info on it? (Or is this toddler of mine killing my brainpower?)
--Berkeley

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Daniel D Dye
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Re: Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by Daniel D Dye » May 6th, 2014, 1:59 pm

Berkeley Boone wrote:
simus343 wrote:Here in Florida they do not hybridize. Also at areas at which I have seen them in black water and on the Eglin Reservation, they do not experience breeding competition.
I don't think that is entirely true, Nick. Back a few years before The Crash, some of the former forum members found and posted some cinerea x andersonii hybrids. I think I have some copies of the photos they took and I will see if they will allow me to re-post them here.
They didn't, however, find bunches of them- only a few individuals over the course of a couple of years. But they were hybrids nonetheless.
The rest of my week is incredibly busy (I am staying at work with a group coming in) but early next week, I will try to find the photos and accompanying information to put up here.

Josh Holbrook, Bill McG, Jake Scott, or DDD- do you guys remember that? Or have more current info on it? (Or is this toddler of mine killing my brainpower?)
--Berkeley
Yes I do, Berkeley, and I recently had a conversation about it with one of the members that posted it.

DDD

simus343
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Re: Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by simus343 » May 6th, 2014, 2:15 pm

Well the more ya know, thanks for the info as I was not aware of that :) . I hadn't seen any myself, just pure species, and I had never heard of it before from word of mouth, internet, or hard copy information such as photo or book. When you get a chance Berkeley I would be very interested in seeing the pictures, so I can see what the hybrids look like. I just did a quick Google search of it and can kind of see a differentiation in the layout of "pattern" on what appears to be a Hyla cinerea at first glance from the angle of the picture, but I only saw the one picture. Some more from different angles would be great if possible.

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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by Josh Holbrook » May 6th, 2014, 5:36 pm

I foggily remember the pictures, Berkeley.

To answer the Op's question; I'm not an expert on H. andersoni, but I would think they probably have habitat partitioning of some sort, and hybrids could potentially occur anywhere their two breeding habitats encroach on one another (probably not too common historically, they did speciate, after all). All you'd need is good GTF habitat right next to good PBTF habitat, a few village idiots who wander a bit, and there you go.

Edit: just did a quick google scholar search and it seems that that's the case: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2 ... 4119532383 - but once again, it's probably a rare occurrence throughout their range. My guess is there's something going on similar to what we have here with Nerodia clarkii and Nerodia fasciata where one is adapted for a a more extreme habitat (clarkii/andersoni) but is a poor competitor so effectively excluded from the "good" habitat where resources are easier to come by (roadside ditches, etc.) In this case you might get some mixing at the edges, but roughly a stalemate because one species can't compete with the other, and the other species can't take the extreme environmental stress.

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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by Josh Holbrook » May 6th, 2014, 5:39 pm

Also, I don't know if these were the pictures you were talking about, Berkeley (sorry to steal your thunder if they are), but a google search revealed Pierson Hill's pictures of hybrids here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/nclarkii/3116496460/

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Stohlgren
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Re: Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by Stohlgren » May 7th, 2014, 4:45 am

Josh Holbrook wrote:My guess is there's something going on similar to what we have here with Nerodia clarkii and Nerodia fasciata where one is adapted for a a more extreme habitat (clarkii/andersoni) but is a poor competitor so effectively excluded from the "good" habitat where resources are easier to come by (roadside ditches, etc.) In this case you might get some mixing at the edges, but roughly a stalemate because one species can't compete with the other, and the other species can't take the extreme environmental stress.
I was talking with Pierson about this recently and he pretty much said what you just guessed, Josh. Roadside ditches alongside quality pine barrens habitat occasionally turn up hybrids. But certainly isn't anything to be worried about in terms of cinerea out competing andersonii or muddying the waters genetically unless the habitat is severely altered.

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Berkeley Boone
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Re: Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by Berkeley Boone » May 7th, 2014, 5:43 am

Josh, Daniel, Kevin, thanks for chiming in. Yes, Josh, those are the pics I was referring to! You didn't steal my thunder with Pierson's pics- I am actually very appreciative of you getting them up here so fast for me (and Nick!). Like I'd said, the rest of my week was going to be rather full. Pierson and KW were the ones that I had been alluding to, so I am glad that we could collectively get that out here.

Nick and MCHerper- I hope that helps. Check those pictures out, and read through the link Josh put up. As the others have said, it doesn't seem that major hybridization with the froggies will be an issue.

Thanks again for the assist, fellas!
--Berkeley

MCHerper
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Re: Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by MCHerper » May 7th, 2014, 7:27 am

This is great information and very informative for me. Thanks for sharing, you guys are awesome!

simus343
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Re: Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by simus343 » May 7th, 2014, 10:47 am

Thanks. I'll have to look hard to try and photograph any I might see in black water this June. Only saw what looked to be a single hybrid on that page. If I'm lucky (really lucky) I can find one and photograph it from multiple views...here's hoping!

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JakeScott
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Re: Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by JakeScott » May 8th, 2014, 6:03 pm

It's funny, the very first H. andersonii group I saw was in a roadside ditch. They were actually calling with their back-end stuck in the mud and sphagnum. There were actually H. cinerea calling in the same ditch. I was wondering if we could find some hybrids. None found, but that would be the perfect scenario for it.

I remember that picture by Pierson. The crash of our system really took out some very important/amazing posts.

-Jake

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Nshepard
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Re: Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by Nshepard » May 13th, 2014, 11:50 pm

In parts of H. andersonii range where H. cinerea occurs, the two species seem to prefer different breeding areas and are likely not competing for most of the same resources. You'll find H. cinerea around disturbance corridors - ditches, artificial ponds, artificial lakes, and in areas that are fire suppressed. Whereas, H. andersonii require a fairly specific habitat type; wet, muddy, seepage slopes and drainages in open habitat kept open by prescribed fire. Occasional hybrids have been found in several areas but are not going to be a conservation problem for H. andersonii.
It's funny, the very first H. andersonii group I saw was in a roadside ditch. They were actually calling with their back-end stuck in the mud and sphagnum.
I've seen similar but it usually is near meta-populations of H. andersonii at intact seepage areas or it is in habitat that was once ideal and is now fire suppressed and highly disturbed. One thing I have learned this year is that H. andersonii loves to call from the ground in boggy sphagnum patches. Previously, I had always thought of them as an 'arboreal' caller.

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fins72
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Re: Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by fins72 » June 9th, 2014, 6:25 pm

Here are some pictures relevant to this topic from this past weekend.
Hybrid andersonii x cinerea:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fins72/14350990236/

Hybrids in the making:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fins72/14 ... otostream/

Calling video:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fins72/14 ... otostream/

MCHerper
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Re: Question about Hyla Range Overlap

Post by MCHerper » June 23rd, 2014, 12:58 pm

Wow Fins72 those pictures and the video are awesome. Thank you for sharing!

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