Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

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Jake Schneider
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Jake Schneider »

gbin wrote: Typical. Post for the clear purpose of spewing a bunch of venom.

Gerry
Hi, I'm just following the argument. Let me say first I know nothing about these invasive snakes other than that they're invasive, they've damaged the ecosystem just like every other invasive introduced anywhere, and their situation seems to be far more popular with the media than any of the other invasives in the Everglades. I don't wish to argue about pythons since I don't know anything about them. What I am wondering is what part in Ernie's whole post (The one you replied to) was dripping with venom and full of personal attacks? I read it multiple times and it really just seemed like a solid argument. I'm not sure if it was right, but there was nothing hateful or offensive about it.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Kelly Mc »

I appreciate the clarification about python skins. I realize they are internationally craved but noticed informally they are less commonly seen in my area. So are fur products.

I remember seeing fur and skin products more often before green values.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by chris_mcmartin »

Kelly Mc wrote:I remember seeing fur and skin products more often before green values.
Maybe in our American backyard, but apparently a growing Chinese market has caused the US fur trade to increase 45% in the last 10 years--it is currently a $15 billion industry:
Thanks to demand in China and Russia for fur-trimmed coats, a coyote pelt that sold for roughly $7 a decade ago now goes for $50. Muskrat is at $11, up from $2. Highly coveted bobcat pelts can fetch up to $2,100 at auction.
(Outside Magazine, August 2014)
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jonathan
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by jonathan »

Jake Schneider wrote:What I am wondering is what part in Ernie's whole post (The one you replied to) was dripping with venom and full of personal attacks? I read it multiple times and it really just seemed like a solid argument. I'm not sure if it was right, but there was nothing hateful or offensive about it.

You should reread these parts. Perhaps you missed the obvious sarcasm the first time around?

Without the help of millions of dollars in funding I set out upon my quest.
Before leaving I knew I had to arm myself with all the knowledge I could muster. For this I turned to the experts. Men and women who I thought were pure of heart and determined to save us from the python horror no matter how much of other peoples money they have to spend . I started by reading Micheal Dorcas's book, INVASIVE PYTHONS! 37 times cover to cover. I then bookmarked the USGS website for quick reference and links to scientific papers written by a variety of super smart snake experts.
I could only think to myself with no mammals remaining and the giant snakes starving from a lack of prey they would attack me as soon as I got out of the car. The experts said the snakes had killed and eaten practically all of the natural wildlife. I believed them, why would they lie?
Suddenly a pair of shining eyes glared at me from the roadside. My heart raced. A giant python! As I got closer I could see it was no python it was a possum? But, how? There are none left. The experts said so.
During this stop I encountered three more awful creatures the least repulsive of the three being a scorpion the other two a pair of maladaptive homo sapiens that drove up, stopped , spoke with a lispy voice and pulled away disappearing into the night.
I also thought to myself how I was mislead by the experts to believe that the pythons were monsters that would lay to waste everything this hostile yet fascinating new environment has to offer. It was very clear the snakes represented nothing more than a new ingredient to the pot luck stew known as the Everglades. It's also clear that the experts are not experts at all but in ways more akin to an ugly version of the wizard from the wizard of oz.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Kelly Mc »

About Skins : My thoughts were of an American taste - when a "bounty" was brought up, that there aren't going to be Python Kabobs bursting on the scene, and that American consumers aren't going to wear invasive python pants.

Not enough for a big American commercial venue.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Kelly Mc »

I would like to see these questions answered by the blend of Opinionated Anonymity that has named themselves "luv_the_smellof_musk"


jonathan wrote:
luv_the_smellof_musk wrote:The question I have is what problem are the researchers trying to solve? As far as I know, there isn't a shred of proof the pythons have caused any problems at all. So just keep doing research for the sake of doing research all the while other species are headed toward extinction?
Musk - the question I have for you is what would constitute "proof" of a problem in your mind? Can you give an example of a research study that you would call "proof"?

Also, why are such a high percentage of your posts on this forum just responses backing up Ernie?

Without subordinatively lifting input from Ernie's post, lets hear your answer.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Jake Schneider »

jonathan wrote: You should reread these parts. Perhaps you missed the obvious sarcasm the first time around?
Yes, I read all of that. Clearly he's being sarcastic, but it's not "Venomous" and I saw no "Personal Attacks."
Either way, that wasn't the post I was talking about. I was talking about this:
WSTREPS wrote:I started this thread by sharing an interesting night of field Herping centered around the capture of Burmese pythons (Python bivittatus). Typically the thread became side tracked at times by the usual suspect with nothing of substance to add. I have no problem at all with personal attacks against me by the low information crowd. Go for it all you want, but at least try to mix the silliness in with something meaningful about the actual topic if you can.

Previously I included some notes about some of the information sourced and why the information is to be questioned. A bit more about that,

"Given the placement of the python's eyes it could see in both directions down the highway. The snake had stopped to look both ways before crossing! I do not think that even a major road would, over time, present a barrier to such cautious and patient animals." Mike Dorcus / John D Wilson Invasive Pythons Ecology of an introduced predator


" Most of the information we have is anecdotal or based on animals kept in captivity. "
Mike Dorcus / John D Wilson Invasive Pythons Ecology of an introduced predator

This lack of research did not slow down these guys one bit. With almost nothing in the way of scientifically gathered data, this crew went on a frenzied attack of publishing Climate maps to illustrate the parts of the US that p. molurus not P. bivittatus could invade, risk assessments and all manor publication's and press fodder spreading the word about the devastation the pythons could / were / are causing in the Florida Everglades. There is nothing unscientific or dishonest about taking a guess. The line is crossed when a guess is disguised as fact. The bottom line truth is ,

“With few exceptions you would get that
impression from the media coverage that hoards of rampaging
snakes were vacuuming up mammals in the Everglades. We
don’t know that. . . .” Dr. Frank Mazzotti

Research and more research. The python club Bloviator members battle cry. With all the kings horses and all the kings men doing research on the Burmese python (Python bivittatus). To date what has been the most important discovery? What has this feeding frenzy of overnight Burmese python experts uncovered thus far? That pythons eat a variety of warm blooded prey, they lay eggs, that they crawl around and act like typical tropical snakes. There are no important secrets about these animals that will be uncovered by the same round and round "research projects". Projects that prove what is already known.

It is certainly possible that some of this research will lead to answers involving biological trivia questions as it relates to practical application, but not much else. The snake experts certainly make it sound like their doing important research work, making key discoveries. Push the promotion of python anxiety among the low information crowd, keep the ball rolling. Pontificate endlessly about the importance of this research and how its furthering our knowledge on this grey matter issue but where are the results ?

The biologist have already admitted the introduced population in Florida can not be eradicated. There's nothing they can do about it. You can cull the snakes from the edges and that's about it. History has shown that 20 years down the line, millions upon millions of dollars in wasted funds, will only result in biologist shrugging their shoulders and saying the place is still loaded with snakes , we don't have any answers yet but we're making great progress in our knowledge , with more research........

The fact of the matter is what you see is what you get. Its not as complicated as some would have you think. The necessary biology to protect and or capture these animals is known. If you want them dead . Collect to your hearts content . You wont wipe them out but you wont find them like you used to. If want to preserve them. Leave them alone. To simple a strategy ? To date its been proven effective when it comes to these animals. No amount of repetitive research will uncover a silver bullet to solving any of the important biological issues surrounding these animals . At least not in anyone now livings lifetime. The pythons will still be in the glades 100 years from now or at least hopefully they will be. Think about that last line.

If these creatures were not front page news, thanks to the USGS team of fear mongers, their activist friends and media links. If the pythons did offer the career opportunities and chances to put one's self in the spotlight. None of these people would be doing anything with them.

This statement is rom the yet another team of Burmese python researchers ,

" Leverage year one results to attract additional funding for longer term research. "


Ernie Eison
gbin was replying to that when he mentioned the venomous and personal attacks, and I see nothing like that in that post.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Kelly Mc »

That's purely a matter of language use opinion, which perhaps would be different if it was your profession in continual reference.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Jake Schneider »

luv_the_smellof_musk wrote:Ernie,

The question I have is what problem are the researchers trying to solve? As far as I know, there isn't a shred of proof the pythons have caused any problems at all. So just keep doing research for the sake of doing research all the while other species are headed toward extinction?
The fact that they're there is a problem itself. It doesn't matter how many things they eat or if that actually has a measurable impact on the population. I don't care if they somehow raise the Mammal population, that's still disrupting Nature, which I view as damaging Nature. Anything an invasive species does, in some way or another, disrupts Nature. The dispute is not whether or not they're doing damage, it's how much damage they're actually doing and whether or not these python experts are really experts and if the funds are really being put to good use. I wish people would stay on topic though. It seems this isn't even an argument anymore, it's just people yelling at each other over stuff that doesn't matter nearly as much as what was said in the original post.

Or was I all wrong about this, and it's actually just the continuation of a long argument between Ernie and Justinm, Gbin, and Jonathan that really doesn't belong on here for everyone else to see?
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Kelly Mc »

Jake, if you are too superior and socially enlightened for this thread then, don't read it.

Its a forum thread. Its vascular, multifaceted, human, and there is a lot of good input in it.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Jake Schneider »

Kelly Mc wrote:Jake, if you are too superior and socially enlightened for this thread then, don't read it.
It wasn't my intention to sound like that at all, sorry about that. But I really am wondering, what is the discussion? I don't get it. I thought it was about pythons but now it seems far bigger than that. That's why I said maybe it doesn't belong here. It seemed more like bickering than an actual argument.

Once again, sorry if this seems like I'm acting like I'm above everyone else or something. I have this way of offending people with the way I type. I'm not trying to sound that way. I think most people get used to it when they get to know me, but no one here knows me.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by WSTREPS »

I would like to revise a point I made in an earlier post. In Mike Dorcas book he says large Burmese pythons CERTAINLY do exceed 20 feet and can approach 25 feet in length. As noted there are no documented 20 foot Burmese pythons let alone 25 footers. But I left out that Dorcus didn't stop at 25 feet , they get even bigger according to the python researchers. They list the maximum record size for a Burmese python as 27 feet, citing a captive bred animal as having reached this length.

The snake the python researchers are referring to is an animal named baby who was for years reported to be 27 feet. In a picture of Lou Daddono with Baby this animal looks huge. She was. This animal was a very well known, a legend. Baby after 27 years. Baby was euthanized in a veterinary office and measured. She was at the time of her death 18' 10" way short of the 27 foot length accepted by the researchers but she still remains the largest verifiable measured Burmese python.

It wasn't my intention to sound like that at all, sorry about that. But I really am wondering, what is the discussion? I don't get it. I thought it was about pythons but now it seems far bigger than that.

For me it is about pythons. For my detractors its always personal. Simply put they don't like the points I make but cant argue them from an educated topical point of view so they make it personal.

Ernie Eison

PS

There is a guy in Miami who buys pythons and turns them into fashion, he does pretty good with it. Python skin attire is very popular in the us, but the price point limits the market. Genuine snake skin cloths and accessories are expensive. Gucci and Prada probably are the most famous for selling python skin products. Among the rich and famous who are known for wearing Gucci attire made from python skins is Kim Kardashian. Gucci is one of the brand names owned by the giant python skin trader Kering who as I mentioned was working with the IUCN Boa & Python Specialist Group . Kering says all their snake skins will be farmed in two years. No more wild caught. Bounty hunts or any python hunt for profit in the Glades I can guarantee would be a failed venture. You can't catch enough snakes.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Kelly Mc »

Jake Schneider wrote:
Kelly Mc wrote:Jake, if you are too superior and socially enlightened for this thread then, don't read it.
It wasn't my intention to sound like that at all, sorry about that. But I really am wondering, what is the discussion? I don't get it. I thought it was about pythons but now it seems far bigger than that. That's why I said maybe it doesn't belong here. It seemed more like bickering than an actual argument.

Once again, sorry if this seems like I'm acting like I'm above everyone else or something. I have this way of offending people with the way I type. I'm not trying to sound that way. I think most people get used to it when they get to know me, but no one here knows me.

I understand, Jake, oh I do. :beer:

I think whats happened is that the OP delivered an opening presentation in a styling which could not fail to invite diverse, equally unfettered responses.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by jonathan »

Jake, if you don't see the venom and personal attacks there, then I'm guessing you just don't know the history on the python issue. Ernie is making not-the-least-bit-veiled references to specific people with those statements. But surely you can at least see the clear attacks on the research community in general?
Jake Schneider wrote:gbin was replying to that when he mentioned the venomous and personal attacks, and I see nothing like that in that post.
You're misunderstanding gbin's statement. He accused Ernie of "post for the clear purpose of spewing a bunch of venom - most definitely including attacks on specific persons and their profession in general" - that's a reference to the original post - "and then when rightly criticized for it, act the injured party" - the "and then" is what he's doing in the post that gbin's replying to. gbin is talking about what Ernie did first, "and then", a two step process.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Jake Schneider »

jonathan wrote:Jake, if you don't see the venom and personal attacks there, then I'm guessing you just don't know the history on the python issue. Ernie is making not-the-least-bit-veiled references to specific people with those statements. But surely you can at least see the clear attacks on the research community in general?
Nope, nothing seems wrong. But, as you suggest, I really know nothing about what's going on. This wasn't exactly the right place for me to just jump into the conversation, and I attempted to keep what I said here to just one post, but, well, you know how these things go.
You're misunderstanding gbin's statement. He accused Ernie of "post for the clear purpose of spewing a bunch of venom - most definitely including attacks on specific persons and their profession in general" - that's a reference to the original post - "and then when rightly criticized for it, act the injured party" - the "and then" is what he's doing in the post that gbin's replying to. gbin is talking about what Ernie did first, "and then", a two step process.
Yeah, I figured it out after reading it like a million more times but by the time I figured it out, I didn't really think it mattered. Thanks for clarifying, anyway.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by WSTREPS »

The anti Ernie contingent as usual put their insecurities on display. Fearful that someone won't join the dog pile they rely on to distract and discredit. To any person with an interest review all that's been said about the topic and pick out who has posted the majority if not all of the actual python discussion and information. Anyone readiong my post will learn some honest facts about pythons. Can that be said about any of the others?

I'm not trying to win anyone over, anyone can take what they want from my post. Apparently my contributions spark a lot of interest. Its a shame more of it isn't centered around the pythons but that not my fault.

I'm posting about this topic in an up front and informative manner the only exception was my opening post that I admittedly (see my second post) was just having a little fun. I then backed that up with a series of topical contributions filled with points that could have been discussed, instead they were surrounded by the clutter of personal attacks and nothing more.

I know what I'm talking about when it comes to these animals. I give all others a fair opportunity to prove their knowledge. I have also provided evidence and sound reasons why the python researchers are suspect and who I am talking about. This scares the low information crowd. To state that I'm attacking the research community in general is absurd. Regardless of how blatant or questionable the actions of a python researcher is shown to be. The Dog pile will admit to nothing. or even give it consideration. Their strong personal bias won't allow them to see the forest for the trees. What they prove is that they do not have the education to admit when they are wrong or the knowledge to prove they are right.

Ernie Eison
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Kelly Mc »

I'm not anti Ernie as one member to be an example. I don't have a bias or any agenda at all, as a matter of fact I have posted that I think researchers should be careful not to sensationalize their dealings with large reptiles , that it is very important to integrate them in image with other wildlife.

But a tone was set, and maybe you realize it as your following posts are more self mitigating.

But you are so angry and that should be a separate subject, its impossible for ppl to accept your view of them, us, All.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Kelly Mc »

I ain't a scientist or a big dealer, but I have acclimated and cared for countless WC pythons and brought countless others to health from being more than half dead, when there wasn't a vet in sight. So lump me in with all the rest beneath you, but I feel adequately qualified to comment on this thread.



Add edit : Like some of the other ppl on this thread - I have been careful to stay within the context of my own concerns, which were peripheral. Because I care about pythons.

I also care about the Everglades and would like to learn more about the issues discussed here but you are a hostile teacher for your view.

Also, if you only want people who have went out and counted burms and mammals to comment, I apologize. That wasnt made clear.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Aaron »

Ernie I thought your original post was hilarious and more than just a personal attack since it provided some points that could be refuted with real evidence should any exist.
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gbin
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by gbin »

Jake Schneider wrote:
jonathan wrote:Jake, if you don't see the venom and personal attacks there, then I'm guessing you just don't know the history on the python issue. Ernie is making not-the-least-bit-veiled references to specific people with those statements. But surely you can at least see the clear attacks on the research community in general?
Nope, nothing seems wrong. But, as you suggest, I really know nothing about what's going on. This wasn't exactly the right place for me to just jump into the conversation, and I attempted to keep what I said here to just one post, but, well, you know how these things go.
You're misunderstanding gbin's statement. He accused Ernie of "post for the clear purpose of spewing a bunch of venom - most definitely including attacks on specific persons and their profession in general" - that's a reference to the original post - "and then when rightly criticized for it, act the injured party" - the "and then" is what he's doing in the post that gbin's replying to. gbin is talking about what Ernie did first, "and then", a two step process.
Yeah, I figured it out after reading it like a million more times but by the time I figured it out, I didn't really think it mattered. Thanks for clarifying, anyway.
Ernie has sprinkled this thread with numerous unwarranted attacks on scientists and the scientific profession, as he has done in numerous other threads that he or others have started. He clearly carries a major chip on his shoulder with respect to the Everglades python issue and any scientists who have touched upon it, and he's not above unfairly maligning them in a foolish attempt to ease his burden. So be it. I won't try to have a rational discussion with him over it - I used to try, but came to realize that it's pointless - but nowadays just satisfy myself with pointing out his BS to others and occasionally having a bit of fun subjecting him to the ridicule he deserves for his misbehavior.

As for your not thinking his misbehavior matters, well, some people think it's wrong when they see someone unfairly malign others and/or others' professions, whereas some people only think it's wrong when they see someone unfairly malign them or their profession. If you happen to be one of the latter kind of people, again, so be it.

Gerry
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by luv_the_smellof_musk »

Hi Gerry,

I cannot speak for Ernie, only myself. I don't have any anti-science agenda. I used to regularly hang out with several people who do research on snakes and found many of them quite a bit of fun to get into the field with and learn from. However, some of the python research was of high school quality and could lead one to believe that they set out to prove a point using any means rather than set out on a fact finding mission with a desire to use sound methods and peer reviewed results. Then there's the outright lies that were told to stir up a media buzz. Gerry, I guess in your world everyone takes the word of anyone conducting research without question or a replication of results or even a critical eye toward the methodology. That is my issue with the matter and many others agree. There also seems to be a group of forum members who dismiss anyone who isn't an active researcher. There are a lot of guys who work with reptiles for a living and they are not all idiots. I thought Kevin McCurley was poorly received here when we should have been picking his brain rather than berating his every word, as just one example. I think it goes both ways.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Kelly Mc »

luv_the_smellof_musk wrote:Hi Gerry,

I cannot speak for Ernie, only myself. I don't have any anti-science agenda. I used to regularly hang out with several people who do research on snakes and found many of them quite a bit of fun to get into the field with and learn from. However, some of the python research was of high school quality and could lead one to believe that they set out to prove a point using any means rather than set out on a fact finding mission with a desire to use sound methods and peer reviewed results. Then there's the outright lies that were told to stir up a media buzz. .

What a load of crap.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by jonathan »

luv_the_smellof_musk wrote:I cannot speak for Ernie, only myself. I don't have any anti-science agenda. I used to regularly hang out with several people who do research on snakes and found many of them quite a bit of fun to get into the field with and learn from. However, some of the python research was of high school quality and could lead one to believe that they set out to prove a point using any means rather than set out on a fact finding mission with a desire to use sound methods and peer reviewed results. Then there's the outright lies that were told to stir up a media buzz. Gerry, I guess in your world everyone takes the word of anyone conducting research without question or a replication of results or even a critical eye toward the methodology. That is my issue with the matter and many others agree. There also seems to be a group of forum members who dismiss anyone who isn't an active researcher. There are a lot of guys who work with reptiles for a living and they are not all idiots. I thought Kevin McCurley was poorly received here when we should have been picking his brain rather than berating his every word, as just one example. I think it goes both ways.
Musk - explain what you would consider "high-quality research", or proof that, say, pythons were responsible for mammal declines in the Everglades.

Name anyone who takes the word of all researchers without even critiquing their methodology or trying to replicate results.

Name a single forum member who dismisses anyone who isn't an active researcher.

And tell us why, on a field herping forum, Ernie only makes posts that defend his reptile-selling industry, and why the majority of your posts are just to back up Ernie.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Aaron »

"In the Everglades alone, state and federal
agencies have spent millions of dollars
addressing threats posed by pythons – an
amount far less than is needed to combat
their spread. If these species spread to
other areas, state and federal agencies
in these areas could be forced to spend
more money for control and containment
purposes.
The Department of Interior and its
partners, including the Florida Fish and
Wildlife Conservation Commission, South
Florida Water Management District and
others are committed to controlling the
spread of Burmese pythons and other
large non-native invasive constrictors."

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, 2012-2013 South Florida Conservation Report
http://www.fws.gov/verobeach/Home/2012- ... Report.pdf

This just supports Ernie's contention that a lot of dollars have been spent but it doesn't support his contention that the money is not well spent. I was actually looking for something that would show how far north the pythons have spread but didn't find anything, and thought this was interesting.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by gbin »

Kelly Mc wrote:
luv_the_smellof_musk wrote:Hi Gerry,

I cannot speak for Ernie, only myself. I don't have any anti-science agenda. I used to regularly hang out with several people who do research on snakes and found many of them quite a bit of fun to get into the field with and learn from. However, some of the python research was of high school quality and could lead one to believe that they set out to prove a point using any means rather than set out on a fact finding mission with a desire to use sound methods and peer reviewed results. Then there's the outright lies that were told to stir up a media buzz. .
What a load of crap.
I'd include the rest of luv's post rather than just the part you quoted, Kel, but otherwise I couldn't have put it better, myself.

For the record, I think Ernie has plenty of knowledge and experience that could be of use to this crowd - and some that could even be of use to the folks conducting Everglades python work or evaluating that work. And I've said so before, including to him directly. Unfortunately, he buries it under the heap of personal garbage he dumps here pretty much any time he gets an audience, rendering it useless. Not so outright loony, but otherwise very reminiscent of Pecos Frank. :(

Gerry
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Kelly Mc »

Gerry - that part was isolated in the quote for its My boyfriend is a model but he goes to another school factor.

But yes, it was all clown scat.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by gbin »

:lol:

Gerry
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WSTREPS
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by WSTREPS »

And tell us why, on a field herping forum, Ernie only makes posts that defend his reptile-selling industry, and why the majority of your posts are just to back up Ernie.
Correcting improper morphological and ecological information being made by the invasive python camp in south Florida, feeding incorrect information to the media . Examining and questioning flawed and incomplete studies. Discussing the animals natural history and its role in society. Including field herping pictures of myself with the animals. This not defending my "reptile-selling industry" as you call it. Its not defending anything. Its a view on the animals and the circus that now surrounds them.

You experience no problem with trying to push aside my opinion as being nothing more than financially motivated, attacking others to stick up for my personal interest by the same token, you and alike thinkers completely ignore the importance to the biologist of obtaining major funding and grants and how this could influence some. You have gone out of your way to confront , chase members who have posted on this topic to see it your way.You're ready to corrct someone if you think they dont agree with your point of view becuse they misread a statement. On the other hand you sit tight if someone insults me based on gross misrepresentation of what I actually said. Your bias is pure,

I'm not anti Ernie as one member to be an example.
I ain't a scientist or a big dealer, but I have acclimated and cared for countless WC pythons and brought countless others to health from being more than half dead, when there wasn't a vet in sight. So lump me in with all the rest beneath you, but I feel adequately qualified to comment on this thread

Add edit : Like some of the other ppl on this thread - I have been careful to stay within the context of my own concerns, which were peripheral. Because I care about pythons.

I also care about the Everglades and would like to learn more about the issues discussed here but you are a hostile teacher for your view.

Also, if you only want people who have went out and counted burms and mammals to comment, I apologize. That wasnt made clear.
I don't view you as a member of any club. Even when addressing me in a less than flattering manner. There's an honesty to you not the phony outrage. That's always to be appreciated.

I don't think anyone beneath me. Being a python expert in the everyday world is about as meaningful as being the best captain kirk at a star trek convention.

What makes a person adequately qualified to comment on this thread or any thread, forget the internet in life is what you show. It's not about pythons. It runs deeper. Not everyone thinks me a hostile teacher, at the very least you will get a straight answer to any question posed.

Ernie Eison

PS To Bryan Hamilton , you asked an honest question I did reply, my answer dripping with venom is on page one this thread if you missed it.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Kelly Mc »

That was very kind of you to say Ernie.

It makes me want to be kind too. Its cool how that is.
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WSTREPS
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by WSTREPS »

This update last night, 8-2 into 8-3 the year 2014 AP (After pythons) I cruised the Everglades hoping to find a record breaking python or any python. The conditions were not as right as I would have liked. I didn't see much of anything for reptiles, a couple of 6 ft gators walking down the road was about it. As for other wildlife....... Deer, 2 opossums, 1 raccoon, 2 more small mammals ran across the road in the distance that looked like raccoons and a Bobcat

I did manage to get this anecdotal picture of an anecdotal Bobcat.

Image

I'm embarking on a public Facebook page so everyone can watch along with the life of Elsa the Everglades Python. I'm considering adding a PayPal account to this page to collect donations.. The donations will go to underpaid python researchers so that they can afford some better arguments.
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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

WSTREPS wrote: PS To Bryan Hamilton , you asked an honest question I did reply, my answer dripping with venom is on page one this thread if you missed it.
Thanks for the candid reply, sans venom. I just wanted to take some time to consider your response. I'm going to paraphrase you without quoting you or trying to show how you changed your position or whatever. I'm not trying to catch you at anything, just trying to have an honest conversation.

You find the everglades is teaming with biodiversity and may not be threatened. It might be in great shape. Even with the pythons and all the other introduced biota.

You don't necessarily disagree with the data collected by the python group but do disagree with some of their conclusions and the sensationalism that has accompanied those conclusions.

Pythons are filling a vacant niche in the everglades and may not be having any ecosystem level impacts. At least there is currently no data to show those impacts.

There is probably no way to damage the python population enough to impact the pythons in a biologically meaningful way. You know a lot about capturing large numbers of reptiles and its just not possible with pythons.

Hopefully this is a quasi-accurate characterization of your post?

I guess my only disagreements are:

Everglades are threatened but that's due to hydrological alterations. I'm a big supporter of trying to restore the everglades by getting more water moving towards them. I think society supports this too. Isn't the Everglades restoration the largest scale restoration effort ever attempted?

You could be correct that the pythons are not having large impacts. But most ecologists and scientists would be amazed if a large novel predator like pythons did not have some measurable effects on the ecosystem. I just can't take your word that everything is OK. I think pythons should be studied extensively in south Florida and the results of those studies should be used inform management decisions.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Aaron »

Just some random thoughts. Ernie mentioned that he went out again and conditions were not ideal for finding pythons. This might be one factor that limits the pythons ability to do damage to mammal and bird populations, the possibility that pythons require a narrower set of weather conditions to hunt in. Maybe compared to large mammalian predators like bears, panthers, bobcats and coyotes*, pythons are not as active, seek food less frequently and are better able and more prone to conserve energy?

*I'm not sure if all these are present in Florida but they are present in the lower 2/3rds of the United States and would be competition for python expansion.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by luv_the_smellof_musk »

I think further research could only benefit from bringing in some new, unbiased personnel. Having the same people come up with a conclusion and then try to find some way, any way no matter how far fetched, to justify it wouldn't seem to accomplish much.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Kelly Mc »

First off, I am naive about Everglades ecology, and I have a question.

When I think of predation of mammals and the impact of burms my mind immediantly thinks not of mature burms and larger fauna, but of healthy hungry juveniles competing with other snakes that are natives that would be targeting same prey. They are hungry active little youngsters and want to eat more frequently than adults - who may eat larger items, but are more sedentary and may eat less animals quantitively.

Is that a relevant question to bring up and any input on this perhaps naive question?

Also the narrower range of favorable conditions that Aaron brought up is an intriguing query.
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regalringneck
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by regalringneck »

... so the conversation morphs to a biological discussion ... iitoi have mercy. forgive me :p
Yes Bryan, it is hard for most of us biologists to consider the python invasion a neutral event, ecologically thinking, & i am in that "camp". I want to remind all that just because we cannot (yet) document a particular problem, does not mean it does not exist, if it can reasonably be inferred.
I would also suggest a poikliotherm might be expected to have a lesser system impact due to lower annual metabolism/activity season/etc., but caveat that w/ the apparent fecundity/life span/prey spectrum of these beasts ... so we dont know and the everglades are too important to merely shrug.
The research must go on (& it will).
Kelly is always good for prompting multi-dimensional thinking & along those lines .. remind; when we w/ formal ecological training ... find what we believe to be "naturally occurring" isolated pops/range extensions ... even known anthropomorphic facilitated pops as long as they indicate substantial ancestry; generally indigenous people: ex. insular chuckwallas/ctenosaurs mebbe madagascar boas? We then we go gaga over them ... & inevitably the biobureaucrats we work with, decide to look busy & get them legal protection (often warranted) ... & thus we perhaps travel in an imperfect elipse if not full circle. When one travels across the glades/flys over it, it seems to this desert ecologist anyway; theres still a tremendous ecological integrity there, beyond the pythons & chiclids, much like our western parks & preserves do, despite a history of, & surrounded by the cowburn't western rangelands where most of my expertise was obtained. fun stuff ... insert shrugs icon
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Aaron »

regal, I did not mean to imply we should assume it's a neutral event, just that it might not be as bad as it's portrayed. I don't think I have seen near as many press releases and public outreach with any of the other invasives in the Everglades. I think it is worthy of study but the nationwide bans on pythons and boas are taking it too far and it's hard for me to believe professional herpetoligists really think pythons and boas are going to spread outside Florida.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Kfen »

Kelly Mc wrote:
When I think of predation of mammals and the impact of burms my mind immediantly thinks not of mature burms and larger fauna, but of healthy hungry juveniles competing with other snakes that are natives that would be targeting same prey. They are hungry active little youngsters and want to eat more frequently than adults - who may eat larger items, but are more sedentary and may eat less animals quantitively.
Everything I am about to say it pure speculation on my part with no evidence and hardly any experience to support any of it. :D

I'm sure there is some competition, but the question becomes how much. Burms, at least captive ones, grow very fast and can handle pretty large prey. It probably doesn't take long for young burms to outgrow the prey that most native snakes are eating, therefore limiting the competition for prey. You can also count very young burms as prey for kingsnakes.

And if the big burms are reducing the mammals, which are direct predators of the snakes and their eggs, than that positive is likely outweighing their limited negative competition.
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WSTREPS
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by WSTREPS »

Everglades are threatened but that's due to hydrological alterations. I'm a big supporter of trying to restore the everglades by getting more water moving towards them. I think society supports this too. Isn't the Everglades restoration the largest scale restoration effort ever attempted?

Hydrological alterations. If there is a problem thats where its at. Based on past history , I'm real skeptical about the proposed solutions. largest scale and most expensive restoration project, that in itself is cause for a multitude of red flags.

Secondly, according to Wildlife commissioner Aliese "Liesa" Priddy society does not support the Everglades restoration projects. In her words " I can't believe we're not getting more public support."
You don't necessarily disagree with the data collected by the python group but do disagree with some of their conclusions and the sensationalism that has accompanied those conclusions.
I think the documented collected information is reliable (as far as the python ecology findings). I have never said it wasn't. It strongly supports my view . The conclusions and the sensationalism are the by-product of having no proof that there is any real threat. I look at as much collected data as is available and evaluate that data based on my knowledge of what is known about these animals. I look for aberrancies that would lead to suspicion that the species is showing some type of abnormal pattern, gaining an unnatural edge. The pythons in the glades are as bread and butter as it gets. It is a textbook population of this species. I also look at what the invasive python camp is saying and how that compares to what I see and know. I'm not much for the "don't believe your lying eyes , believe what I'm telling you" game.

I feel my approach is much more objective than what's been seen from the invasive python camp in south Florida, who seemly love to run into a crowded movie theater and start yelling fire, when they have no idea if anything is burning or not.
You could be correct that the pythons are not having large impacts. But most ecologists and scientists would be amazed if a large novel predator like pythons did not have some measurable effects on the ecosystem.
I'm sure ecologists and scientists would be amazed. I cant prove I'm right but as of now the provable facts are on my side. Most ecologists and scientists know far less about these animals than I do. They like to cut and paste different species and scenarios together to validate their opinions, because they don't know much if anything about this animal and this situation, rather than admit this they try to compensate.

I try to avoid the mix and match approach . At times comparisons can be made based on similar ecology's. I prefer to compare apples to apples as much as can be done. I'm not attempting to tell everyone that a Burmese python introduced into an environment that is in many ways a replication of its natural habit is a brown tree snake on Guam.
When one travels across the glades/flys over it, it seems to this desert ecologist anyway; theres still a tremendous ecological integrity there, beyond the pythons & chiclids, much like our western parks & preserves do, despite a history of, & surrounded by the cowburn't western rangelands where most of my expertise was obtained. fun stuff ... insert shrugs icon
From ground level,

The ENP is the most polluted and the most disturbed
ecosystem of any national park or preserve in the United
States. In the 1950s and 1960s, some areas of the Everglades
were sprayed with four times the concentration of
Agent Orange as was sprayed in Vietnam. Between the
ENP and Lake Okeechobee is a vast area of 700,000 acres
of sugarcane; the waters draining this area carry the pesticides
and fertilizers from that industry. Much of the runoff
from the lawns and golf courses of Miami and the agricultural
fields of Homestead and Florida City flows through
the ENP.

The World Wide Fund for Nature estimates that only 2% of pristine Everglade ecosystem remains.

There are in all probability more introduce species then anywhere in the world. Including 19 species of exotic mammals. Feral mammals dogs, hogs, cats are established in or around the Everglades .


Ernie Eison
narrowfellow
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by narrowfellow »

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jonathan
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by jonathan »

narrowfellow wrote:I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one:
'O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.'
And God granted it.
- Voltaire
:lol: :beer:

When I was in high school I did my senior project on Voltaire just because of stuff like that. As I got older I stopped agreeing with a lot of his ideas, but the dude had as much wit as anyone who's ever written.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by Kelly Mc »

Scathing quotes are entertaining but a shift in the thread was occuring that was evolving up from personalities to principles.

It would be educational for those of us less knowledgeable about Everglades ecology (neo ecologies??) to hear the actual items of contention, if harbored, with the post.
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gbin
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by gbin »

Not to derail this thread if it turns out to have some genuinely meaningful purpose (beyond Ernie telling us all what corrupt dolts wildlife academics/scientists/managers are, that is), but...

I agree that's a great Voltaire quote, and I appreciate you inserting it, narrowf. (Candide has always been one of my favorite books, too.) I'm sure he wasn't at all a nice person, but nonetheless he's one historical character who I would really have liked to have met.

Gerry
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jonathan
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by jonathan »

Kelly Mc wrote:Scathing quotes are entertaining but a shift in the thread was occuring that was evolving up from personalities to principles.

It would be educational for those of us less knowledgeable about Everglades ecology (neo ecologies??) to hear the actual items of contention, if harbored, with the post.

It has been a few days without anyone replying to Ernie's thoughts. I think Ernie has more to share if he wants. But I'm afraid that his best conversation partners would probably be turned off by the original post. Getting a more useful back-and-forth would probably require a different starting point.



On that note....
WSTREPS wrote:Correcting improper morphological and ecological information being made by the invasive python camp in south Florida, feeding incorrect information to the media . Examining and questioning flawed and incomplete studies. Discussing the animals natural history and its role in society. Including field herping pictures of myself with the animals. This not defending my "reptile-selling industry" as you call it. Its not defending anything. Its a view on the animals and the circus that now surrounds them.

You experience no problem with trying to push aside my opinion as being nothing more than financially motivated, attacking others to stick up for my personal interest by the same token, you and alike thinkers completely ignore the importance to the biologist of obtaining major funding and grants and how this could influence some. You have gone out of your way to confront , chase members who have posted on this topic to see it your way.You're ready to corrct someone if you think they dont agree with your point of view becuse they misread a statement. On the other hand you sit tight if someone insults me based on gross misrepresentation of what I actually said. Your bias is pure,
I've never said that your opinion is purely financially motivated, and that's not the issue. The annoying trend I'm commenting on is that your opinions fall, with loads of hostility, on the same predictable side of every issue that you post on, and you only post on issues that will somehow relate to your animal-selling industry. It's your agenda and the way you go about promoting your agenda, not your motivation for that agenda, that's annoying.

I'm not referring just to pythons. I'm referring to all your posts, whether they're about brown snakes, bog turtles, the Endangered Species Act, anti-researcher, anti-conservationist, anti-government, whatever. (I know that you don't hate all conservationists and scientists, you just speak negatively of 99.9% of them and make sweeping generalizations about them in general.) I've seen you mock some of the most grounded, fair, respectable people on this forum.

You've bragged before about amazing field-herping experiences you've had. You've gone all over the world for herps. You've apparently found some herps that are very difficult to find, and found enormous numbers of some herps that are somewhat difficult to find. But even though this is a field-herping forum, you never post about any of that except to drop hints about how awesome it's been. This is the first time we get a field-herping post from you where you went beyond your front door, and rather than any of the cool stuff you've seen, it's just another chance for you to post about the people you hate. It's the same hostile agenda-driven stuff with the same predictable opinion, every time.

And, for some reason, musk mostly seems to come on the forum just to back up you. And with the same level of hostility, just with less information.

If my bias is "pure", what is it? Anti-Ernie? gbin is on the other side of this conversation, and I doubt that there is anyone of the forum that I've been involved in more hostile arguments with. (In fact, I've also complained to gbin that he never posts about field herping.) So where's the bias you perceive? I doubt you've even read my posts closely enough to know my opinion on this or any other issue. Have you ever seen me post any misinformation on this topic?
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gbin
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by gbin »

jonathan wrote:... gbin is on the other side of this conversation, and I doubt that there is anyone of the forum that I've been involved in more hostile arguments with. (In fact, I've also complained to gbin that he never posts about field herping.)...
Just to clarify (as I believe I have before), jonathan, I feel no hostility toward you. Best not to mistake tenacity, a passionate writing style and/or impatience with various kinds of foolishness as hostility. Indeed, from what I know of you through these message boards, I've come to think rather highly of you - even when we disagree, as we certainly do on occasion.

And it's not true that I never post about field herping. Actually I do so a fair bit, and quite a lot on issues related to field herping. What I do almost none of these days is post reports about field herping excursions. I find it fun when folks post such reports, sure, but that's not all this website is devoted to and I personally find other aspects of it more engaging. "Different strokes..."

(Think the stuff above doesn't really belong on this message board? I tend to agree, just as is the case with the stuff to which I'm responding. ;) )

Ernie, I've said this plenty of times, directly to you and to others about you: Of course I think your herp knowledge and experience are valuable, and could be well worth sharing here. But you bury it under so much garbage which you're determined to use these message boards to dump on wildlife scientists (and which, yes, I suspect is motivated by financial profit) that the value you could bring here is utterly lost. Stop using these boards to unfairly denigrate decent people and an honorable profession and I'll be happy to stop treating you with the derision you've been so richly deserving. If you want to criticize people and/or their work, I'm fine with that - and science is indeed heavily dependent upon the latter - but make sure it has a basis in evidence that you can clearly point to and leave out all those totally unfounded aspersions which to date you've been so eager to cast toward your self-styled "enemies"; your personal suppositions about these people and their profession, no matter how many times nor how forcefully you present them, do not substitute for real evidence. In any event, you'd do well to stop foolishly acting the injured party in these exchanges given that they invariably start with you attacking others.

Gerry
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WSTREPS
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by WSTREPS »

For those who might contest that this is not a "Field Herping" topic, I must disagree.
My original post was based on an evening of field Herping in the Everglades.
All the elements of this discussion have been centered on or around what is now part of field Herping in the Everglades. The Florida Everglades is one of the planets most exciting ecosystem's.


Much of the anxiety caused by the introduction of the Burmese python is due to the whimsical image that the Everglades is a beautiful unspoiled environment in dire need of rescue. An environment that has been invaded by a giant unchecked predator.

I sense that once again the python researchers have been negligent, failing to place the Everglades as it exist today into proper position when talking over the snakes and their conjecture of the potential impacts. The Burmese python has become a part of the Everglades, this the real Everglades as appropriately described;

All of South Florida, from the Big Cypress Swamp at the northwest, north to and including Lake Okeechobee in the center, and the Atlantic Ridge on which the Miami metropolitan area sits, is recognized as the Everglades ecoregion or sometimes as the “historic Everglades,”

The Everglades of today is a blending of species from around the world, an ecosystem
changing and adapting to new influences that have arrived with the growing flood of people that now inhabit all of South Florida. People are prevented from living in the ENP, but the plants and animals that have arrived with them know no such boundaries.

Despite the addition of so many exotic species in ENP,
the ecosystem has proven to be resilient and remains functioning and productive. Its biodiversity is greater
today then at any time since the settlement of Florida.

Yes, it has to be monitored and sometimes managed. However, the fears and predictions of environmentalists that any ecosystem so riddled at all trophic levels with exotic species could not function have not proven to be true. Most of the ecosystems of the entire planet include a significant percentage of introduced species as a consequence
of the actions of humans. The simple fact is that most exotic and “alien” species, both plants and animals,
don’t derail ecosystems and they may make positive contributions.

The Everglades of yesterday, the Everglades of 200 years ago, is gone. The purity of the old historic Everglades has not been experienced by any living human.
Still, a return to that ecosystem is held as the ultimate goal by many conservationists and restorationists of the“Glades.” They fail to accept and acknowledge that the remembered ecosystem itself was but one vignette in a changing landscape. The Everglades and all of South Florida have changed, have always changed, and will -continue to change. But they will never change back.


Various actions on their part show the invasive python camp of biologists have a conflict of interest and lack of objectivity , it is provable they benefit directly by maximizing the magnitude of any problems that Burmese pythons might present, real or hypothetical. It is not an act of hostility or agenda to comment on this or to point out the glaring holes in the science presented, the far-fetched morphological and ecological information , the poor quality of the publications and the biased press releases.

The failure of some to admitting even the slightest to the possibility that there has been any wrong doing on the part of the Invasive python team . This in the face of cogent evidence could be called proof of their bias, their agenda. The pot calling the kettle black. Government researcher's , their colleagues, the pythons, the Everglades are all entwined. It would be lacking to discuss only one aspect or side of the situation.


Ernie Eison
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gbin
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by gbin »

gbin wrote:Ernie... If you want to criticize people and/or their work, I'm fine with that - and science is indeed heavily dependent upon the latter - but make sure it has a basis in evidence that you can clearly point to and leave out all those totally unfounded aspersions which to date you've been so eager to cast toward your self-styled "enemies"; your personal suppositions about these people and their profession, no matter how many times nor how forcefully you present them, do not substitute for real evidence...
WSTREPS wrote:... it is provable [biologists working on the Everglades python issue] benefit directly by maximizing the magnitude of any problems that Burmese pythons might present, real or hypothetical...
There you have it, folks. We used to live in a country where people are considered innocent until proven guilty, but now that we've moved into Ernie's World (much like slipping into another dimension) all that's needed is for Ernie to declare that someone is guilty of something, and lo, by his fiat alone it is so! Evidence schmevidence! And in this case, with Ernie himself having no small financial interest in the affected subject, the scientists involved would have be considered real enemies of the state, guilty of high crimes, indeed!
WSTREPS wrote:The failure of some to admitting even the slightest to the possibility that there has been any wrong doing on the part of the Invasive python team . This in the face of cogent evidence could be called proof of their bias, their agenda. The pot calling the kettle black. Government researcher's , their colleagues, the pythons, the Everglades are all entwined. It would be lacking to discuss only one aspect or side of the situation.
Wow, it's even worse than Ernie first suspected! Apparently there's this huge conspiracy of wealthy wildlife biologists out to get him! Poor Ernie! Poor Ernie's World!

What a nutjob... :crazyeyes:

Gerry

P.S. to Ernie: You really should quote and cite the things that you lift from other sources, rather than plagiarize by blending them in with your own words and pretending that its all yours. (See the pseudoscientific paper "self-published" by David and Tracy Parker, proprietors of VPI, Inc., "The On-Line Source for Boas, Pythons & Sandboas!" :roll: )

P.S. to everyone else: If someone is found to be demonstrably dishonest about one thing, you can be sure that he's dishonest about others that you haven't discovered.
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by jonathan »

WSTREPS wrote:The failure of some to admitting even the slightest to the possibility that there has been any wrong doing on the part of the Invasive python team . This in the face of cogent evidence could be called proof of their bias, their agenda. The pot calling the kettle black. Government researcher's , their colleagues, the pythons, the Everglades are all entwined. It would be lacking to discuss only one aspect or side of the situation.
Ernie Eison
I haven't seen anyone in the conversation do that. The fact that people are calling your arguments out for being mean-spirited and agenda-driven doesn't mean that they think the other side is full of angels. When people have used threads to bring up actual research to discuss, it has been discussed intelligently and critically. This forum has been the source of no small amount of criticism of poorly-done research, and I can't think of anyone on here who has unfailingly supported researchers whatever their methodology.

This is the difficulty with your approach. You launch into a diatribe full of accusations and generalizations, get called out for your approach, then assume that anyone who calls you out must be bias and agenda driven. (Just a little bit of projection?) Meanwhile, most of the intelligent discussion, and a lot of people who would participate in intelligent discussion, stays out entirely. How is that helpful?
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by WSTREPS »

The fact that people are calling your arguments out for being mean-spirited and agenda-driven doesn't mean that they think the other side is full of angels. When people have used threads to bring up actual research to discuss, it has been discussed intelligently and critically.


It's hardly an apples to apples comparison to compare other research discussions on this forum to the python disscusion, that line of reasoning is flawed.

I haven't seen a similar situation discussed on this forum. I don't know that there is a similar situation. Open criticism of the python researchers on this forum has been kept to a minimum. No matter how questionable their actions or the information presented by them has been. They have been treated as "Angels" by my detractors.

There has been very little questioning of the researchers about their actions or about what can be found in their absurd literature, 27ft. Pythons, snakes looking both ways before crossing the street, Burmese pythons eating babies in China etc.,

No-one has called me out on anything. Insulting someone is not calling them out. I have been the one doing the calling out. I have called out all the naysayers to dispute what I have said with something more than accusations and insults. Read all my posts and you will find many statements about the animals, the environment, etc. I have backed up my points with more than name calling , accusations and generalizations. Reading through my post you will find reasonable points of contention, evidenced to support my view. My post contain factual information. Where is this in the post made by any of the people throwing stones?

I used the term anti Ernie club at one point, but to be fair, some can be found disrupting threads across the forum boards. If they don't have a common enemy, they selfishly argue off topic among themselves , disrupting and hijacking otherwise interesting threads. To call them my own is unfair, it's not just me they are serial internet party crashers.

Ernie Eison
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gbin
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by gbin »

gbin wrote:Ernie... If you want to criticize people and/or their work, I'm fine with that - and science is indeed heavily dependent upon the latter - but make sure it has a basis in evidence that you can clearly point to and leave out all those totally unfounded aspersions which to date you've been so eager to cast toward your self-styled "enemies"; your personal suppositions about these people and their profession, no matter how many times nor how forcefully you present them, do not substitute for real evidence...
WSTREPS wrote:No-one has called me out on anything....
Like I said, nutjob. :crazyeyes:

Gerry
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jonathan
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Re: Everglades monster constrictor hunt. Doing my part.

Post by jonathan »

WSTREPS wrote:
The fact that people are calling your arguments out for being mean-spirited and agenda-driven doesn't mean that they think the other side is full of angels. When people have used threads to bring up actual research to discuss, it has been discussed intelligently and critically.


It's hardly an apples to apples comparison to compare other research discussions on this forum to the python disscusion, that line of reasoning is flawed.

I haven't seen a similar situation discussed on this forum. I don't know that there is a similar situation. Open criticism of the python researchers on this forum has been kept to a minimum. No matter how questionable their actions or the information presented by them has been. They have been treated as "Angels" by my detractors.
That's just not true. I was speaking directly about python research. For instance, in the following thread I brought up one of the python research results in question, without commenting on whether the researchers got it right or wrong. That started a long, intelligent discussion, some of which was critical of methodology and conclusions. No one treated the researchers like angels or assumed they were right, but no one was a jerk either. Non-coincidentally, neither you nor musk was involved. It was one of the more productive discussions on the topic:

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... f=2&t=9970

and here was a brief follow-up that was also helpful:

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=10089

Here's another one about the python ban - not as much discussion, but various opinions expressed and research linked and referenced and even criticized without anyone taking the discussion off the rails:

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =20&t=9794

Here's an article where some of the very people involved in this thread are directly critical of one aspect of python research, but keep the criticism specific instead of insulting so a useful discussion is had.

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... 13&t=15823

Some more level-headed, specific criticism of python research in the Everglades:

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=11984

This paper got some specific, useful critique as well:

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... f=2&t=4400

In every single one of those threads, someone starts criticizing the methodology or conclusions of the python researchers. In zero of those threads does anyone assume that the researchers are angels and couldn't have gotten anything wrong.
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