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Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: July 31st, 2014, 11:07 am
by Noah M
I was doing a bit work looking at species that use Florida mangroves and I came across this document.

http://www.fws.gov/verobeach/msrppdfs/mangroves.pdf

In it, it says the following:
Twenty-four taxa of reptiles utilize the aquatic and arboreal habitats of the
mangroves. Resident species include the mangrove water snake (Nerodia fasciata
compressicauda), the threatened Atlantic salt marsh snake (Nerodia fasciata
taeniata), rough green snake (Opheodrys aestivus), the threatened eastern indigo
snake (Drymarchon corais couperi)
, yellow rat snake (Elaphe obsoleta
quadrivittata), green anole (Anolis carolinensis), mangrove terrapin (Malaclemys
terrapin rhizophorarum), American alligator (Alligator mississippiensis), and the
endangered American crocodile (Crocodylus acutus).
(emphasis my own)

I've never heard of such a thing. Has anybody ever seen an Indigo in a mangrove habitat? I thought they prefered more xeric landscapes with underground burrows and plentiful food.

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: July 31st, 2014, 11:19 am
by Carl D. May
Indigo snakes used to be known from Hutchinson Island and other barrier islands in Martin and St. Lucie Counties. Whether they remain or not I don't know although I bet they do. Keep in mind that not all mangrove habitats are the kind you might be thinking of---aquatic, with prop roots and slimy mud. One of the species--and maybe even two (white and black mangroves)--do grow in slightly more upland areas that are periodically dry. These places are typically loaded with land crab burrows as well and I bet that indigo snakes might utilize these places.

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: July 31st, 2014, 1:17 pm
by Jake Schneider
mangrove water snake (Nerodia fasciata
compressicauda), the threatened Atlantic salt marsh snake (Nerodia fasciata
taeniata)
Wouldn't that be clarkii????? How'd they make that mistake?

As for Indigos in Mangroves, I have no idea. I met a guy while walking on a trail with water on both sides and no good Indigo habitat for miles around and he claimed he saw an Indigo just moments before. I believed him, but then he pulled a ribbonsnake out of his bag and called it a brownsnake, and a little later called a green watersnake a cottonmouth so......... not sure about that :crazyeyes:

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: July 31st, 2014, 3:33 pm
by Noah M
Carl, that's interesting. I know when I think of mangrove, red mangrove comes to mind. But also that black mangrove, white mangrove, and buttonwood are found in more upland locations. I have even seen gopher tortoise on coastal dunes, so perhaps an indigo in coastal, more upland mangroves are possible. I never even thought of crab burrows. How wild would that be, to see an indigo in a crab burrow. I wonder if they would eat crabs?

Jake, I just think its an older publication, back when they were fasciata and not clarkii

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: July 31st, 2014, 7:45 pm
by dery
captainjack0000 wrote: I wonder if they would eat crabs?
I'd wouldn't be able to see that preditor-prey relationship through without popcorn and a drink.

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: August 1st, 2014, 3:39 am
by Carl D. May
captainjack0000 wrote:Carl, that's interesting. I know when I think of mangrove, red mangrove comes to mind. But also that black mangrove, white mangrove, and buttonwood are found in more upland locations. I have even seen gopher tortoise on coastal dunes, so perhaps an indigo in coastal, more upland mangroves are possible. I never even thought of crab burrows. How wild would that be, to see an indigo in a crab burrow. I wonder if they would eat crabs?

Jake, I just think its an older publication, back when they were fasciata and not clarkii

I doubt they eat crabs, at least not the big blue ones. I have them on the property I run in Palm Beach and some of them are gigantic with burrows you could stick your head in! They seem to be total vegetarians though.

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: August 1st, 2014, 6:05 am
by Noah M
They seem to be total vegetarians though
Yes, I thought crabs were like filter feeders, using their claws to move food and water towards their mouth parts. I suppose indigos, even with their size, may struggle with the crab shell. You would need an indigo sized crayfish snake. But if the crab holes are that large, indigos may use them as refugia. What would be in the area they could eat? Are there beach mice? Mangrove rabbits? Tortoise eggs?

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: August 1st, 2014, 12:23 pm
by PrimitiveTim
EDBs, racers, coachwhips also live on the dunes.... all indigo food. I know they live on some coastal dunes near me. I'm not surprised they live in among the mangroves. As for eating a crab... I wouldn't put anything past an indigo. I once saw a picture of an indigo chewing on a shark head that had been tossed in the dunes. I've seen marsh rabbits, tortoises, and various birds in dune habitat personally. They got enough to eat :)

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: August 1st, 2014, 1:59 pm
by Noah M

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: August 1st, 2014, 5:07 pm
by InfantryVeteran

That's nuts!

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: August 2nd, 2014, 6:36 am
by Tim Borski
The first Indigo I ever encountered was in Mangrove habitat. It was stretched out on a narrow dirt road with salt water and Red Mangroves bordering either side. When I walked up to it, it moved off to the side of the road and slid down a crab hole.

Tim

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: August 4th, 2014, 4:39 pm
by umop apisdn
Indigos used to be found in the Florida Keys and a couple of years ago, some friends and I found a shed off a mangrove trail in the Everglades only for some other friends to cruise one up on the main road in an area with nothing but mangroves on either side.

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: August 4th, 2014, 5:29 pm
by tomharten
Carl D. May wrote:Indigo snakes used to be known from Hutchinson Island and other barrier islands in Martin and St. Lucie Counties. Whether they remain or not I don't know although I bet they do. Keep in mind that not all mangrove habitats are the kind you might be thinking of---aquatic, with prop roots and slimy mud. One of the species--and maybe even two (white and black mangroves)--do grow in slightly more upland areas that are periodically dry. These places are typically loaded with land crab burrows as well and I bet that indigo snakes might utilize these places.
I don't know about indigo snakes, but I did find a couple of gopher tortoises on North Hutchinson island last week, though they were just on the inland side of a sand dune. Seems possible for indigo snake to have occurred prior to the massive development there.

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: August 5th, 2014, 12:45 pm
by Tim Borski
umop apisdn wrote:Indigos used to be found in the Florida Keys and a couple of years ago, some friends and I found a shed off a mangrove trail in the Everglades only for some other friends to cruise one up on the main road in an area with nothing but mangroves on either side.
Mike, last summer I found an Indigo shed 11 miles west of there, in the mangroves.

Tim

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: August 5th, 2014, 2:46 pm
by Noah M
some friends and I found a shed off a mangrove trail in the Everglades
last summer I found an Indigo shed 11 miles west of there, in the mangroves
I'm counting on you two to get a picture of an Drymarchon in the mangroves. These sheds you keep finding aren't good enough :lol: :P

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: August 6th, 2014, 1:33 pm
by umop apisdn
That's unlikely from me, but here's the one friends found:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nclarkii/8325912150

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: August 6th, 2014, 6:24 pm
by Crimson King
coachwhips too
Image

:Mark

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: August 7th, 2014, 3:29 am
by Carl D. May
Crimson King wrote:coachwhips too
Image

:Mark
Yes, I forgot about coachwhips. I have absolutely seen them living in the dunes-- and diving down crab holes on the beaches of Lantana and Manalapan down here in Palm Beach County. We used to see a big coachwhip periscoping out of a crab hole next to a beach shack on a regular basis.

Re: Indigos in Mangroves?

Posted: August 7th, 2014, 10:23 am
by Noah M
That's unlikely from me, but here's the one friends found:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nclarkii/8325912150
Why am I not surprised that it was Mr. Hill. If snakes were on the moon he would have found them and taken amazing photographs of them.

Yeah I knew about coachwhips using the dunes/mangrove areas. Though, probably like the indigos, they are much less common in these environments