kingsnakes

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hondo-dan
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Joined: August 25th, 2014, 8:00 pm

kingsnakes

Post by hondo-dan »

Anyone in the salt lake area have experience finding mountain kings around here? I'm fairly new to somewhat serious herping and was checking the range of the various snakes in Utah. I noticed the mountain kings have a pretty extensive range. Are they as hard to come across as milk snakes or ringnecks?
Jimi
Posts: 1955
Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

Re: kingsnakes

Post by Jimi »

There are a few local guys who have made a real study out of this topic. (I am not one of them, I'm just "a groupie". I tag along sometimes, and occasionally do some looking on my own. Some of them are kind enough to share their hunting stories with me.)

The published range of pyro in Utah is a bit misleading. From what I gather it overstates the case in the northern part of the state ("the Salt Lake area") and probably greatly understates it in the west desert. As for ease of encounter - a few guys make it look not too hard. But most people have to work at it. Or, they just get lucky, which is sometimes much, much faster! Ha ha ha...

My $.02 - I'd say they're much harder than milks, but a bit easier than ringnecks, if you apply yourself - right place, right time, right way. But again, I'm no expert. If any of those guys want to pipe up, they will. Some are pretty outgoing, others are quite reserved.

If you want to try and legally harvest a pyro there's a process ("pre-approved COR" in the herp regs) to get a tag, or at least a shot in the draw. For that I imagine you'd mainly want to pound ground in the well-known range (but who knows?). I think we only try to sell 4 tags a year. I don't think we ever sell out. Go for it if you want it.
application form http://wildlife.utah.gov/guidebooks/amp ... corapp.pdf
limits by species http://wildlife.utah.gov/guidebooks/amp ... _table.pdf

If you'd like to help get the real range figured out (that is, not hunt the well-known areas, but some of the "likely/suspected" ones), that would be awesome too. That cause could use more effort. Some of those areas are pretty close to town, others are way the hell out in the boonies. What's your cup of tea?

Perhaps we can organize a Chapter spring trip or two, directed to this purpose (elucidating the real range). Maybe one close in, and one way out in the boonies. Hmm...

Cheers,
Jimi
simpleyork
Posts: 513
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 12:45 pm
Location: utah

Re: kingsnakes

Post by simpleyork »

we need some trips planned for this coming year for sure Jimi, as much as I like flipping a whole montain side by myself a few extra hands would be nice.
Jimi
Posts: 1955
Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

Re: kingsnakes

Post by Jimi »

I like flipping a whole montain side by myself
Whaddaya gunnin' for the title "Young Eagar"? Ha ha...better start laying in your stock of gloves for the spring! I just wore out my last pair in Arizona, mostly just with slope-scrambling, hardly any flipping.

Well anyway, maybe we could do a close outing in the Simpsons or Sheeprocks or something. Simpson Spring campground perhaps? (But there was a fire close to there this summer...I'd need to see exactly where.)

Or maybe we could use that USFS campground on the south side of Mt Nebo, and flip the hell out of that whole area. That hill also has one not-so-new smooth greensnake dot on the map. We could freshen up that dot, and get a photo-voucher for the museum. I don't know if anyone knows which Lampropeltis occurs right there. Surely milks, but I think pyro is not a complete impossibility. We should ask Brian...anyway, I like all the good-sized round rocks embedded halfway in the gravelly dirt & oak leaves there. And there's permanent streamflow, which can't hurt. Maybe that's where we get your ringneck?

As for "out there" - I was thinking maybe either the Mountain Home or Indian Peaks range. Or maybe the North House. Just camping in the dirt, no facilities whatsoever. Maybe a spring or a cattle trough for a sponge off. Your kids down for that yet? Too little still?

cheers,
Jimi
hondo-dan
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Joined: August 25th, 2014, 8:00 pm

Re: kingsnakes

Post by hondo-dan »

Thanks for the reply guys. I'd definitely be down with a run like that. Let me know how I can help.
Jimi
Posts: 1955
Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

Re: kingsnakes

Post by Jimi »

OK, come February or so I think we can start penciling in some chapter-outing dates. People are usually seriously Jonesing for a herp-out by then. Also, people usually warm up once they meet you, and go for a cruise or a flip. See you're not an axe murderer or cannibal or whatever. Ha ha.

The "pyro kings" here may still have something to contribute. You probably would still have a little time to see one in Washington or Iron counties this month. Otherwise, maybe April down south, May up here.

cheers,
Jimi
simpleyork
Posts: 513
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 12:45 pm
Location: utah

Re: kingsnakes

Post by simpleyork »

finally saw the south side of Nebo a few weeks ago, when I was headed down Nephi canyon, looks like a good spot to try and not far from home either.

Hondo-Dan, I may or may not be headed out your way again on Wednesday, send me a text around one that day if you can to see if I do make it out.
ThomWild
Posts: 352
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 10:42 am
Location: Utah

Re: kingsnakes

Post by ThomWild »

I can't speak at all for the northerly range of pyros but central UT seems to be doing nicely. I always get reports from the students of the herps they see and there are always a handful that see a pyro.

-Thomas
Jimi
Posts: 1955
Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

Re: kingsnakes

Post by Jimi »

Nice one, Thomas. I like his broken white rings and all the reds split with black. The "messiness", I guess you could say. "Perfect-pattern-pyros" have never really interested me. That little fattie has some character.

Was he just on the crawl in the brush, or crossing a road, or what? Got a story?

Nice to see a live one, not DOR.

cheers,
Jimi
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Rancorrye
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Re: kingsnakes

Post by Rancorrye »

Spring trip at Thomas' house!!! Hahaha
simpleyork
Posts: 513
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 12:45 pm
Location: utah

Re: kingsnakes

Post by simpleyork »

found a nice campground down that a way last Sunday, I think that is a good idea Rye.
hondo-dan
Posts: 22
Joined: August 25th, 2014, 8:00 pm

Re: kingsnakes

Post by hondo-dan »

Nice one! That's a good looking snake Thomas. Thanks for sharing.
ThomWild
Posts: 352
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 10:42 am
Location: Utah

Re: kingsnakes

Post by ThomWild »

I am good if you want to crash at my house. We could try to squish inside or pitch tents outside, I even have an outdoor fire pit! (Apparently you can't live in Richfield without one.) But as Chris mentioned, there are a number of good spots to pitch a tent nearby with a little better access to the field. In all seriousness, Richfield is a good central spot for many different types of habitat. I am pretty much within 2 hours of anything I might want to target in the state.

Jimi I too like the character aspect of them. It was found while flipping mid morning, temps were still in the 60s. Night lows were mid 40s, daytime highs were mid 80s. I think he found himself a little lizard meal and hunkered under a rock for a bit. I don't think it could have been very old, it was only ~8", then again I don't really know what they start at.

-Thomas
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Brian Hubbs
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Re: kingsnakes

Post by Brian Hubbs »

I'm still waiting for someone to prove that pyros actually occur north of Scipio. I assume they do in scattered areas, but all the new finds seem to be coming from the western desert mtn ranges. I'm starting to think they were never up by Salt Lake at all.
Jimi
Posts: 1955
Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

Re: kingsnakes

Post by Jimi »

I'm starting to think they were never up by Salt Lake at all.
I know, I know.

The thought of some CBD- or WEG-type of group making a listing run at the "pyro mtn kingsnake" (don't get me started...) gives me fits. Especially if they tried to make a case for "has disappeared from a lot of its northern range". Because, based on "the evidence", it has. Right? Hmm...we're actually not so sure about that.

Here's an excerpt from a quick & dirty threat assessment I recently did with a TON of help (and all of this part) with Mark Hazel:
Problems exist with documented occurrences as well as undocumented range - with both "dots" and "holes".

For example, of the set of presumptive occurrences north of Millard County, 3 of the 8 museum-accessioned pyro specimens are definitely misidentified milksnakes (2 collected from near Stockton in 1909, SDNHM 24677 & 24676, and 1 collected from Mapleton in 1994, BYU 45417.).

Of the remaining 5:
* One (1938 from Butterfield Canyon, UMNH 1430) has been lost since at least 1997 so cannot be verified as to identity.
* Another (undated from Bingham Canyon, UAZ 39603) is suspected to actually be a milksnake and its identity needs to be verified (George Bradley at U of AZ could be asked to send us a photo).
* The final 3 (~1914 from Granger (now NE West Valley City), CAS 47969; 1934 from Wallsburg, BYU 322; ~1913 from "Utah County", MCZ R-9049) are definitely pyros.

But the last one is suspected to have been gifted to Harvard by BYU (in Utah County...), actual collection site possibly unknown.
And the agricultural mid-valley town of Granger seems an unlikely actual collection site; more likely it was the collector's address. Again, actual collection site possibly unknown.
There is also the possibility of a rather salacious explanation for the "Wallsburg" specimen, with the result being another doubtful locality.

All this partly explains Mark's long-term enthusiasm for hunting the Oquirrhs and also Wallsburg.

***********************************************************************************************************************

Hello would-be citizen scientists. Get thyselves to points from Wallsburg to Scipio, and HUNT PYROS.

Incidentally - this is another reason I'm a big proponent of the pickle party, and also getting photo vouchers into museums. And not just relying on HERP or state-agency databases. And why I really have little respect for "personal-secret data".

The only "permanent record" is the museum record.


And the museum record is...as we see...incomplete and not infallible. So if you have "good data" - please try to get it into a museum.

Cheers,
Jimi
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Brian Hubbs
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Re: kingsnakes

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Nice rundown of the usual suspects, Jimi. I was aware that some museum records were in error or lost, but had no idea there were so many. Good job. :thumb:
Jimi
Posts: 1955
Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

Re: kingsnakes

Post by Jimi »

Nice rundown of the usual suspects, Jimi. I was aware that some museum records were in error or lost, but had no idea there were so many. Good job. :thumb:
Thanks Hubbs. But I deserve none of the credit (except maybe for getting Mark's work into state awareness). Mark Hazel compiled that museum info himself, in coordination with a few other guys like Alan St John (who took & circulated photos of what we now know are the two mis-labeled SDMNH milks from Stockton UT, collected in 1909).

The Granger record seems pretty obviously "not the actual locality" - it's in the middle of Salt Lake Valley, elevation ~4250'. Maybe that's where the collector lived. In 1914 surely that area was in orchards, or improved pasture, or "truck crops". Even before agricultural development, it would have been exceedingly atypical habitat - mid-valley Wyoming sage, probably.

Wallsburg however is not so easily dismissed (i.e., there's nothing overtly wrong with its ecological setting), unless one considers the "rather salacious" explanation I mentioned, an explanation which impugns the reputation (and some other curious museum records...ahem...) of a giant of Utah herpetology. I doubt anyone would ever put that one into print. And it wouldn't settle anything anyway.

So, the hunt must go on. Got any plans to come up here next season?

Cheers,
Jimi
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Brian Hubbs
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Re: kingsnakes

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Maybe...we'll see...but as for Wallsburg...I went there when I was digging up info for my book "Mountain Kings" and I talked to an old resident of the area, who confirmed seeing a tri-colored snake up on the rock slides east of town when he was a kid. He didn't catch it and took no photo, but the habitat looked right for either a milk or pyro. That's all I know...
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