2016 Annual Meeting

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Noah M
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2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Noah M »

A gentle reminder to this chapter that you are to plan and organize the 2016 national meeting.

Here is the agreed upon chapter rotation, with emphasis added.

2012-Central Time Zone-Midwest
2013-Eastern Time Zone-SE
2014-Mountain Time Zone- Rocky Mountain (Placed here because California is extremely close to AZ)
2015-West Time Zone-California
2016-Central Time Zone-SC
2017-Eastern Time Zone-NE
2018-Mountain Time Zone-Arizona
2019-West Time Zone-NW
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by dbh »

I have decided not to continue my position as IB in the SC chapter in 2016. I can resign now so that someone else can be elected to this position and be involved in the 2016 Annual meeting planning. I currently have less time to use for my herping interests than I would like and don't see that changing anytime soon.

David
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chrish
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chrish »

I'm not sure how much I can contribute, but maybe we should start thinking about where we should meet at least.

I think the criteria should be:
- somewhere with legally herpable land
- somewhere with reasonable permitting of out-of-state herpers
- somewhere with an interesting diverstity of species
- somewhere with some species that are typical of and/or endemic to our SC region

Maybe the Ouachita Mountains area of Arkansas?

I don't know what the optimal time of year for there is though.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by dbh »

Maybe ask Andy G. if there is anyplace in TX that he would want surveyed that could hold a small group and has facilities close?
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chris_mcmartin »

dbh wrote:Maybe ask Andy G. if there is anyplace in TX that he would want surveyed that could hold a small group and has facilities close?
What's the going rate now for a nonresident 5-day license and herp stamp--$58? How does that compare to other states in the chapter? That alone may be a turnoff for some people (though the herp-stamp portion is really only for herping rights-of-way).

Arkansas sounds appealing.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chrish »

dbh wrote:Maybe ask Andy G. if there is anyplace in TX that he would want surveyed that could hold a small group and has facilities close?
I know of some properties that have requested herp surveys, but the requirements/restrictions might be prohibitive for the group.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by jlzachary1 »

I have been in discussion with the local herp scene here in Oklahoma to determine our ability/desire to host a national meeting should it be available. As for diversity, Oklahoma has many different biodiversity regions that can be readily reached within a couple hours from central Oklahoma. We have 87 WMAs spread throughout the state. I am not saying I would love to have it here necessarily, but I am compiling a list of "bids" if you will that will represent the Oklahoma options. As the meetings are photo and release only, if people only utilized the WMA's the fee would be $25 for the access pass. I will of course talk with ODWC to ensure that this is true.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Jimi »

Thanks for doing all this. Oklahoma is quite appealing to me - you're right, the diversity is pretty incredible there. It's also cheap & easy to get there, and cheap to stay there. I think a lot of people would like this option.

AR & MO are also pretty cool...I think they also do alright with the criteria outlined here already. They have more public land too - e.g., a couple of big Nat'l Forests, and lots of state land in MO. But the Ouachita Mtns (and the eponymous National Forest) also occur in OK. What's prime-time there, something like March-April for most amphibs and April-May-June for most reptiles? Would something like the last half of April be a reasonable target for max opportunity of species & hunting techniques (cruising, flipping, stalking, dip-netting, snorkeling etc)?

Some folks might prefer to time around "holidays" (e.g. Easter, spring break for our college students or parents, etc). Asking for them - how would, say, late March be? (I think such timing could be risky, weather-wise, but what do I know?)

The thought of Memorial Day travel is just plain repugnant. I also assume it would be awfully hot & sticky by then, making cruising one of the more productive (yet less interesting than actual field herping for non-locals) hunting options.

Anyway, just trying to get some reactions & further exploration & thought development here. Stirring the soup, not back-seat driving.

Thanks again
Jimi
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by jlzachary1 »

my thought is late April to early May would be ideal. This year it was all off because we had the wettest May in history which just through things out of whack. As for affordability that is definitely a plus as well as centrality. If we were to base in central OK to the east you have the cross timbers areas and to the west we have the plains/desert-scrub areas. In the SE we have the coastal swamp and the Ouachita Mts. In the SW we have the Wichita Mtns which hosts massassaugas, the best collared lizards, and other species. Much of the state is within a 2-3 hour drive. The exceptions being the panhandle and far SE Oklahoma/ Red Slough area. I live in north central Oklahoma and I have made trips to most of the state and the drives have been reasonable. My only main issue is, I can't think of a primary location to say, "this is home base" to focus a meeting around.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by hellihooks »

The best herping we (my son and I) had on our early May X-country herping trip (09)... was in OK, up off the 40. I'd LOVE to revisit that area... :D
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chrish »

Eastern OK would be interesting and would provide some good diversity. Plus it offers a variety of herping options (flipping, walking, etc). Plus we have a lot of missing data from that part of the US.

I agree with April, but it can be a busy month with Easter and other spring stuff. Easter is early (April 5th) so maybe mid-late april would work? The 18th is the new moon so that weekend might be productive.
Early April can be iffy with weather (i.e. I've been snowed on in western AR in April).
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chris_mcmartin »

jlzachary1 wrote:My only main issue is, I can't think of a primary location to say, "this is home base" to focus a meeting around.
Thinking Outside the Bun here, but what if a Friday night meetup place was on the west side of OKC (e.g. El Reno), and Saturday night was somewhere further east? That way, people could (theoretically) do west/central OK herping Friday/Saturday, and central/east OK (and even into AR) Saturday/Sunday...
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by jlzachary1 »

to respond to Chris, if we were to plan something like that I would recommend Clinton on the west side and probably Okemah on the east side. They are both along I40. Clinton would give good access to habitat that would include 3 species of rattler, kansas glossy, texas night snake, longnose snakes, hognoses, collared lizards, horned lizards, and many species of toads and frogs. On the east side, you would have access to 2 species of rattler, both agkistrodons, eastern hognoses, milksnakes, speckled kings, scarlet snakes, and if you go to the far se many salamanders. I could probably make a more specific list of what could be found on each side of the state if that would help.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chris_mcmartin »

jlzachary1 wrote:to respond to Chris, if we were to plan something like that I would recommend Clinton on the west side and probably Okemah on the east side. They are both along I40.
True. My rationale for thinking closer together is in case some people want to use the same accommodations each night but not have as far a drive to meet for dinner/evening activities.

But the two-location-over-the-weekend option in general may be effective in pulling in more people who may have time for an overnight trip but not the full weekend, since one of the locations may be a few hours closer to them than another.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by hellihooks »

I (we) stayed at a KOA campground on thr 40, outside of Checkotah (?) ponds full of turtles... pyg, coppers, water snakes, rough earth, etc... right on koa property... camping or cabins for rent very reasonable... :)
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chrish »

I think E/W Oklahoma is
a) too far apart
b) limited in diversity

I think if we are going to do a two site meeting, the sites need to be within 60 miles of each other with one site being the primary camping/meeting site. And there needs to be demonstrable benefit of having such a bipartite meeting that overshadows the "rift" it creates.

If need be, I think eastern OK and western AR shows much more promise of diversity. Remember this is a herp group, not simply a snake group. Having a meeting that celebrates the unique amphibian diversity/endemism of that region with a few reptiles as icing on the cake would be the approach I would be intrigued by and really celebrates what this area has to offer.

If we are just snake hunting, why not just have it in West Texas tied in with Snake Days?

But I acknowledge that most NAFHA members are snakers (or at best "squamaters"), not herpers. We do have to consider that.....or do we?
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Noah M »

Just my $0.02

I would like to see non-snake herps considered in the decision. This way if it rains, people can still go looking for things, no?
We're the North American Field Herping Association not the North American Snake Hunting Association
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by jlzachary1 »

Salamanders will certainly be the focus of an Eastern Oklahoma hunt in April, you may be able to find some decent snakes/lizards flipping things and if there is rain you will be able to cruise amphibs.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Jimi »

But I acknowledge that most NAFHA members are snakers (or at best "squamaters"), not herpers. We do have to consider that.....or do we?
Oh, I wouldn't jump to agree - we have lots of folks pretty into amphibs (just look at some of the Smokies posts, phew). And everyone likes turtles, but most folks don't have access to much chelonian variety. "Arklahoma" is pretty epic for turtles (~20 taxa), 'phibs, AND squamates (well, snakes...sorry lizard guys, ha ha). I would think anyone from the xeric west ("nuttin' BUT squamates") will be attracted to this. And the NE guys too, for the species diversity and sheer abundance of individuals. Personally, if this was held in W OK, with mostly western snakes as the targets, well...I get to see those all the time. Glossy snakes, be still my pounding heart...but I guess the Florida guys could say the same about sliders and tree frogs.
Salamanders will certainly be the focus of an Eastern Oklahoma hunt in April
Absolutely!!! And I think the snake flipping also ought to be pretty darn good at this time.
And there needs to be demonstrable benefit of having such a bipartite meeting that overshadows the "rift" it creates.
I too recoil from this idea. If people are coming from afar they can build "bonus trippage" into their personal itineraries. But I think - from a NAFHA perspective - it would be better to keep it simple. In one general area, where people can focus on whatever they're into, in that area.

So anyway, am I right in reading that, IF the chapter and the state members are willing, we have a general area and a pretty specific time (April 16-17 or 23-24, or maybe the next weekend too) to circulate for consideration? Or do we need to consider, and maybe offer, more ideas/options first?

Locals - what do you think of Talihina (~3 hrs & <200 miles from OK City & its decent-fares airport) as a base of operations? Seems like it's big enough, with multiple motels, restaurants, etc. Most importantly, it's close to the public land and a lot of the species diversity. Alternatively, the Ouachita NF has several campgrounds, if that's what people are into. The possibility of heavy rain might dampen enthusiasm for camping, though (ha ha, get it? stupid puns, love 'em).

cheers,
Jimi
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chrish »

I think the Ouachita National Forest seems to be a good option. Large expanses of public land, reasonable access from OKC, Little Rock, DFW, and interesting diversity. Furthermore, a variety of herping techniques work so weather won't kill the trip. There is camping as well as hotel/motel options. The town of Mena, AR appears to be more centrally located, but I don't know about proximity to campgrounds, etc.

An Ozark Hellbender trip would be cool, but I know nothing about where/how to see this species.

Hunting Rules in OK vs. AR

Here's the regs for OK - http://www.eregulations.com/oklahoma/hu ... gulations/
and license costs - http://www.eregulations.com/oklahoma/hu ... nse-costs/

In summary, OK requires a hunting licenses. A 5-day non-resident license cost $75.

It is worth noting that many of the "salamanders of interest" are protected. But since NAFHA rules prohibit collection at meets, we shouldn't have a problem. But people won't be able to take animals back to camp to photograph the next day.

Regulations for AR -

Having trouble figuring this out, but herps are classified as wildlife in AR it seems to read that you need a hunting license.
Herps of AR site has a summary of the rules/regs - http://herpsofarkansas.com/Herp/Laws - except it doesn't specify if a hunting license is required.

Nonresident 5-Day Small Game Hunting License (SG5) costs $70.

I didn't check the OK rules carefully, but AR has some problematic rules

Section 5.02 - It is unlawful to hunt any wildlife at night.
Section 5.03 - It is unlawful to shine artificial lights from any public road, or on any wildlife management area, for viewing or locating wildlife.

Are these problems for a meeting in AR? Anyone in AR know how these rules are interpreted? Maybe we should contact Kelly Irwin and asK. Anyone know him (I've met him, but don't know him)?
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chris_mcmartin »

chrish wrote:Hunting Rules in OK vs. AR
Wow; I'm a little surprised/impressed that the TX nonresident 5-day costs less than in these two states--even with the herp stamp.

Re: bringing animals back to camp for photography and release the next day--is this something NAFHA condones? I thought there was a thread elsewhere on FHF discussing this.
Are these problems for a meeting in AR? Anyone in AR know how these rules are interpreted? Maybe we should contact Kelly Irwin and asK. Anyone know him (I've met him, but don't know him)?
I'll ask. If the SC chapter moves forward with this option (eastern OK/western AR) it would be good to bring the respective state herpetologists into the process.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Noah M »

bringing animals back to camp for photography and release the next day--is this something NAFHA condones
In my limited experience, it seems like it depends upon the rule of the state and the mood of the meeting. I.e. if a non-protected species is found at the campground, does bagging it for a couple of hours so people arriving can see it count?

I think before a whole discussion on this ensues, a location should set - and then questions like this can be posed to the state biologist & or game enforcement officer. If the authorities don't care, then that is a strong argument for NAFHA not to care.

In cases like this, I'd rather ask for permission first instead of begging for forgiveness later.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Jimi »

I looked at Mena AR too. It looks like a longer drive from a major airport than Talihina. But it's a much bigger town with way more lodging & dining options etc. So logistically, it's not clearly better or worse.

However, my general impression is that AR has more restrictive nongame laws &/or rules - and agency culture - than OK. Just an impression, formed more "by osmosis" than by exposure to hard facts. Also, facts change, sometimes faster than impressions. So 1) let's be sure about the facts and 2) I don't think NAFHA wants to ever be in an "asking for forgiveness" situation. Thanks for the legwork guys.

I agree 100% about getting the state herpetologist(s) on board. (Even if we intend to stay in 1 state or the other, it won't hurt to be nice to, & get to know, the neighbor.)

It seems like group participants are often photographers who want AM group shoots. Not my cup of tea at all, but I'm also very "live and let live" as long as the rules are followed and the animals are given their due. So I'm with Cap'n on this one.

cheers,
Jimi
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chris_mcmartin »

From Kelly Irwin:
Hey Chris,

If people are to be catching (holding for photography would be ok as long as animals are released in close proximity to point of capture) and releasing then no permits would be required.

If someone were wanting to keep something permanently then they would need to apply for a Scientific Collecting Permit.

Mena, AR has motels and food, is close to both the Caddo Mtns as well as Rich and Fourche Mtn range, all within Nat For boundaries.

Queen Wilhelmena St Pk on Rich Mtn has camp sites and the newly renovated lodge, about a 15 mi drive from Mena.

Kelly J. Irwin
Herpetologist
Arkansas Game & Fish Commission
IF the consensus is an eastern OK/western AR site for the meetup, it may be helpful to pursue an "official" letter with words to the effect of the first two sentences Kelly wrote...I know when I had questions on doing this in AR (capture for photographic/ID purposes) 10+ years ago Kelly was very helpful in this regard and wrote me a letter I carried with me whenever I was in the field, in case the LE arm of AGFC didn't see things the same way. 8-)
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by jlzachary1 »

Oklahoma has the same rules about not using lights on the road to hunt for animals. This largely applies to deer, but could be used to apply to herps. I can tell you in dealing with rangers and officers it has never been enforced against me as such. I am going to meet with the ODWC in the next couple of weeks to determine specific license requirements as it pertains to this event. If no animals are being taken then licenses may not be expressly necessary. Another locale to consider is Broken Bow, it has a lot of camping and is situated in good area for finding herps and isn't far from the town of Idabel.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Hadar »

To the organizers for the 2016 Annual Meeting, please give us at least a few months heads up so those of us who have to travel far can request time off of work and make necessary arrangements. Would you also include which airports are the closest for those of us not familiar with the area? I am familiar with Arkansas, Louisiana, and Texas but Oklahoma is a new beast. My knowledge of Oklahoma: an OK ;) musical (pun intended) and the world's largest ball of twine (wait that's Kansas), nevermind, I know nothing about the state.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Tuataurifer »

chrish wrote: An Ozark Hellbender trip would be cool, but I know nothing about where/how to see this species.
I'm Just ending this idea before it even starts, this is ILLEGAL. These animals are federally protected species and should not be harassed.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chrish »

Tuataurifer wrote:
chrish wrote: An Ozark Hellbender trip would be cool, but I know nothing about where/how to see this species.
I'm Just ending this idea before it even starts, this is ILLEGAL. These animals are federally protected species and should not be harassed.
It is not against the law to look for them. I am aware of their status. Let's not overreact here. I wasn't implying anything else.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by gretzkyrh4 »

Sorry I haven't joined in the discussion to this point. I was out of the country for a bit (former chapter pres Ritt just got married in Turkey) and have been busy catching up at the office since.

I think the Eastern OK/Western AR idea sounds great. I admittedly know little about the area and won't have much in the way of input to provide, but I would definitely be in favor of a meeting in this region of the chapter.

I'll try to check on this thread a little more frequently now that I'm back stateside.

Chris
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Tuataurifer »

It is against the law to look for them actually. they are a FEDERALLY protected species.
chrish wrote:
Tuataurifer wrote:
chrish wrote: An Ozark Hellbender trip would be cool, but I know nothing about where/how to see this species.
I'm Just ending this idea before it even starts, this is ILLEGAL. These animals are federally protected species and should not be harassed.
It is not against the law to look for them. I am aware of their status. Let's not overreact here. I wasn't implying anything else.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chrish »

Using capital letters to point out that they are FEDERALLY protected doesn't change anything. It is not illegal to go look for endangered species, regardless if they are FEDERALLY protected or just on a state list. No, you can't collect them, harrass them or otherwise interfere with them, but you can look for them in non-destructive ways.

Here's some FEDERALLY protected species that I searched for, found and photographed. Go ahead and turn me in :lol: -

Image

Image

Image
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Tuataurifer »

This is a species that should just be left alone by recreational field herpers for a variety of reasons....Simply by looking for hellbenders you are harassing them. They live under rocks in rivers. You will not see them out in the open. If you flip rocks you risk injuring the animals as well as disturbing nests(dependent on time of year). Looking for hellbenders is destructive, that's all there is to it. This is considered harassment. If you want to go snorkel and stare at rocks, by all means be my guest. Sounds absolutely enthralling.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Noah M »

Regardless of the federal status of hellbenders and searching for them, I think having a National NAFHA meeting looking for hellbenders is a bad idea for many reasons, one of which is simply because some members are opposed to it. We're trying to bring people together.

The other main reason is because the national meeting should try to attract people from all across the country, many of which are probably unfamiliar with safe hellbender search methods. Having a group of "amateurs" search for any species with special protection sounds like a recipe for disaster.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chrish »

I agree that it probably isn't good to have a NAFHA sponsored trip to look for bishopi, I'm just not a big fan of disseminating incorrect information about laws and hyperbole.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by hellihooks »

Not that anyone but Ca Members attended... but at this year's meet, we had Dr Fisher of the USGS, and representatives of Ca F&G TAKE us to otherwise 'closed to the public' tracts of land that hadn't been herped for decades. Couldn't one person with the proper SCP guide a group to see one hellbender.

From what I've heard... 2 years ago the was basically no oversight (resulting in a black eye for Nafha) This year there MAY have been too much control enforced (which IMO hurt attendance) I really hope that next year a more moderate and equitable 'means between extremes' can be reached, with the underlying question being... 'how much can we trust our members to not break the laws?' :shock:
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by jlzachary1 »

the hellbenders are several hours away from the current destination spot, it is a 3-4 hour drive from the current discussion.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Noah M »

Is there any more movement on this? Location (city/campground), dates, contacting local agencies and authorities, etc.?
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Noah M »

Bump.

Just want to make sure this gets squared away so other folks have plenty of time to plan and make arrangements.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chrish »

Agreed. I think we should schedule the meeting for Mena, AR.

The question is ....what time of year is best for this location to increase the diversity of species that we could find?
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Jimi »

Hmm, crickets. OK, I'll bump.

Mena looks like a great base. Surrounded by diverse public lands, and big enough to accommodate all logistical needs, easily. The one thing we'd need to do, is get with the chamber of commerce, a local motel owner, somebody, to ensure we don't overlap with some major tourist event and find ourselves with overpriced or unavailable motel rooms. Paying $150/night for a Super 8 is probably a non-starter for some of us. Just on principle, if not for lack of funds.

That said, are we picking up the timing discussion where we left off, or are we starting over?

We left off having considered climate, holidays, moon phase, herp annual activity, and maybe some other stuff. And wound up at mid-late April as the time frame that takes everything (including maximizing the diversity of encounterable species) into best account.

If we were starting over, by "diversity" would we equally value e.g. ground skinks and ringed salamanders? Emydids, hylids, and natricines? I feel like we already tried to balance "general amphibs" with "general reptiles" to derive the answer we obtained.
* If we wanted to maximize amphibs (while still certain to miss some, by design) we would pull back a couple months wouldn't we? To something like mid-late late February?
* And if we wanted to maximize the far more species-rich reptiles (again, likely to miss some by design) wouldn't we push forward a month or so, to mid-late May?
* If I was hung up on e.g. pigmy rattlesnakes I'd probably suggest August or September. If I was hung up on e.g., gopher frogs January would probably be much better.
* None of these time frames would be ideal for "max diversity" but they'd still work for certain animals & certain people.

I feel like the answer we already derived is a fair balance of amphibian and reptile interests - neither is shut out, we still have great odds of finding many species - and definitely missing a few - with mid-late April.

Note - I'm just trying to generate some dialogue in order to advance us to our decision. I may not even get to attend, but I'm interested in a considered, equitable process that generates the best answer for the group. Maybe we haven't heard enough about what kind of experiences & encounters people most want.

Personally I'm intrigued and excited by the prospects of hunting timber and western diamondback rattlesnakes on the same ridges. It's kind of a mind-blower. But I also really like dipping & flipping turtles, tadpoles, skinks, dinky little dirt snakes, etc. I also like scoping map turtles (or better yet, shining them at night!) and running down coachwhips. Cruising I like, in moderation - it would be a drag if that was the principal technique available, based on timing (e.g., mid-summer). So I'm open to an awful lot of ideas. Which is probably not all that helpful to narrowing down our options...what if anything do you people absolutely NEED a good chance to find? Or is it more about a good hunt for you?

Hope this is thought- and response-provoking.

cheers
Jimi
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kaptainkory
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by kaptainkory »

Mena as a home base in April could offer a lot of unique targets...

FROGS
* Only common stuff available.

SALAMANDERS
* Ambystoma annulatum...adults unlikely (but a whisker's chance if it rains); larva could be dip-netted.
* Plethodon sp. (Ouachita Mt. endemics)...should be prime season for all of these.
* Desmognathus brimleyorum...easy get.
* Hemidactylium scutatum...know they are in the area, so surely enough people hitting the sphagnum spots could get one.

LIZARDS
* Crotaphytus collaris...pretty uncommon, but possible.
* Phrynosoma cornutum...PLEASE find one! :-(
* Plestiodon obsoletus...know they are there; desperately need a specimen or two.
* Plestiodon septentrionalis obtusirostris...supposed to be there, at least historically.

SNAKES
* Crotalus atrox...yep, but the hike up to the better spots will kill you.
* Crotalus horridus...hit-and-miss, but with enough people spread out should turn up a couple.
* Sistrurus miliarius streckeri...easier to road cruise in midsummer, but could turn up.
* Agkistrodon contortrix...easy.
* Agkistrodon piscivorus...yawn.
* Sonora semiannulata semiannulata...some possibility, but definitely not common.

TURTLES
* Terrapene ornata...supposedly there, but probably unlikely.
* All the other possibilities are pretty common fare; I don't go to Mena for turtles.

The top of Rich Mountain used to be more prairie-like, but fire suppression has really allowed vegetative growth to degrade the more open habitats of the past. The more desirable reptile species, to me anyway, are in isolated rocky pockets here and there. I will admit to never having been to the very best sites (upper part of Black Fork Mountain), but I do know the steep 2+ hour hike up is a tough one.

Queen Wilhelmina SP offers pretty expensive lodging and some limited number of tent sites. I believe Greg Butts is the SP guy who still issues any permits required to herp within the parks. BTW, you probably know to do this kind of thing already, but if you are reserving several tent sites, for example, see if you can work out a discount in exchange for a free herp survey and report.

A good diversity of lowland stuff can also be found just ~2 counties away...
* Hyla avivoca avivoca...might be too early for chorusing.
* Ambystoma talpoideum...low probability.
* Amphiuma tridactylum
* Siren intermedia nettingi
* Alligator mississippiensis
* Farancia abacura reinwardtii
* Liodytes rigida sinicola...low probability.
* Chrysemys dorsalis

The better spots I know about for lowland species are on NWR, so that should require some permits and planning before it's even put on the table. I've communicated with the refuge manager less than a year ago and I know he was really interested in having some (informal) herp survey done. So, the door could be opened, but probably not last minute.
Jimi
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Jimi »

Thanks Cap'n, great info.

Getting to Chris' most recent question - is there a better time than "April" for taxonomic diversity?

It seems (from afar...) that AR, being so south and so low, would provide for normal spring reptile emergence as early as mid-March, but if we went too early we'd be at risk of some crappy cold fronts impacting our weekend. Seems fine for amphibians but...I think most folks are going to want a chance at snakes, lizards etc.

When is so late in spring that we're at risk of getting cooked out? Mid June?

If April is the best month, could you make a more precise recommendation? Early/mid/late month, whatever? Balancing risk and opportunity?

Thanks again, very, very glad to hear from you.
Jimi
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kaptainkory
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by kaptainkory »

Jimi wrote:If April is the best month, could you make a more precise recommendation? Early/mid/late month, whatever? Balancing risk and opportunity?
Either the weekend of April 9th or 16th, even the 23rd, would offer probably the ideal split between amphib and reptile opportunities. Still too early for road cruising reptiles, but just about everything else is good. The salamanders and woodland snakes will be easy pickin's flipping rocks. The rattlesnakes shouldn't be too spread out from their densites. The weather can vary quite a bit this time of year and there is nothing can be done about it, but... If it's rainy, it does open up road cruising opportunities for amphibs. If it's warmer and sunny, the reptiles should be basking.
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chris_mcmartin »

Keep in mind, also, that what may be "mundane" species to folks who live in the area could be desirable lifers for people traveling from afar. 8-)
Jimi
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Jimi »

Keep in mind, also, that what may be "mundane" species to folks who live in the area could be desirable lifers for people traveling from afar.
Definitely. I think we're on the right track. "Extreme life-listers" can still hone in on their Ouachita-endemic plethodontids. The rest of us can revel in sheer diversity and numbers.
Either the weekend of April 9th or 16th, even the 23rd, would offer probably the ideal split between amphib and reptile opportunities.
Well, I called a few motels in town this morning (seems like a friendly place) and it turns out April is a pretty slow month for tourism in Mena. The only "organized" event is the Ouachita Challenge, a bike tour/race on a couple of local-major trails, which apparently switches around a little in timing but this year is 4/2-4/3. Looks like we're good with April. (Apparently October is pretty crazy, if anyone is thinking of a scouting trip.)

Incidentally, looking at motels got me looking at VRBO & AirBNB too (habit). I see a number of "cabins" that would wind up cheaper & nicer than any motels if a few people wanted to chip in together. Nice to have your own kitchen, eating out gets old. Also, some "public space" (dining room, deck, whatever) to spread out & hang out for an hour or so before bed or over breakfast, is nicer than dog-piling into someone's motel room. (Online motel reviews were pretty mixed, and on average, "not so good". I didn't give it much time though.) Many of these vacation rentals are on rural property near Mena and have a creek or pond on-site; most seem to have a lot of pasture/woods edge (racers & kings oh my). One I saw had ATVs for rent, and riding trails up the mountain right from the door. One was huge (sleeps >10), and cheap (about $100/night). Just an option folks might want to consider, sounds kind of fun.

The biggest possible objection I see with April 9-10, is it's the last weekend before tax day. I think there's probably some last-minute folks here, ha ha. Also, for all I know we have some tax-prep pros in our ranks, they'd sure be buried in work. So maybe later would be better??? Wild guess here, just trying to avoid whittling down our numbers.

Anybody got any more input to help decide which weekend should be picked for NAFHA National, 2016?

cheers,
Jimi
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kaptainkory
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by kaptainkory »

chris_mcmartin wrote:Keep in mind, also, that what may be "mundane" species to folks who live in the area could be desirable lifers for people traveling from afar. 8-)
No worries, Chris. Five-lined Skinks will be in no short supply.
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chris_mcmartin
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by chris_mcmartin »

kaptainkory wrote:
chris_mcmartin wrote:Keep in mind, also, that what may be "mundane" species to folks who live in the area could be desirable lifers for people traveling from afar. 8-)
No worries, Chris. Five-lined Skinks will be in no short supply.
SWEET. :lol: But hey, maybe some Pacific-Northwesterner is really looking forward to seeing them!
Jimi
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by Jimi »

So...would it be reasonable, helpful, and courteous at this time to solicit feedback (on timing) from the broader audience of potential attendees? Just give them the 3 weekends as the options we've zeroed in on, and ask for their preferences, ideas, etc?

(Chris, I think the PacNW guys will be way more impressed with the broadheaded skinks, and also glass lizards if we can scare up any of those.)

I hope we aren't enjoying PacNW-type weather for this thing. The NWS Climate Prediction Center currently shows an 85% chance of El Nino persisting into May. The next 3 months look cooler & wetter than average for AR; it might be like that all the way through spring. (Maybe the latest of our 3 choices would be best???)

cheers,
Jimi
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kaptainkory
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by kaptainkory »

Jimi wrote:and also glass lizards if we can scare up any of those.
The chance...it is fat for that one.
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ZantiMissKnit
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Re: 2016 Annual Meeting

Post by ZantiMissKnit »

Watching this with interest...
The weekend of April 16 is good for those of us who live in Boston, considering that we get Marathon Monday (Patriots' Day) off.
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