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Fieldnotes
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John Martin
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by John Martin »

Not sure really, other than the fact that annularis, annulate, etc. refer to rings... Maybe someone just decided to go with the literal Latin translation?
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by Antonsrkn »

Common names are obsolete anyways, atleast for herps.
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by simus343 »

Common names are common names. They are common. From what I recall, the Eastern Hognose has a little over 100 common names, and that's just what I found them referenced to as.

Take the longleaf pine for example. If I went with the literal latin name as a common name, it would be the Swamp Pine or Marsh Pine. Pinus for pine, palustris for swamp. Yet instead, the common "official" name is Longleaf Pine.
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by Noah M »

simus343 wrote:From what I recall, the Eastern Hognose has a little over 100 common names, and that's just what I found them referenced to as.
I'd love to see that list. Seems like somebody could do a history/folklore study on the common names and myths of snakes in an area.
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by simus343 »

I made the list because I was bored my sophomore year of highschool and it's when I first really got into research Eastern Hognose Snakes haha, the workload was not enough :P. Sadly, during locker cleanouts that year, I tossed the list :roll:.
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by chrish »

I think it has always been known by more than once common name. Since most of the local discussion of this gecko is probably in French or local north African languages, I suspect there are many regional differences in what it is called and where.
Antonsrkn wrote:Common names are obsolete anyways, atleast for herps.
I have been listening to that silly claim for the last 30 years from various people. You could have made that statement back in 1758 and it would be equally untrue.
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by Antonsrkn »

I have been listening to that silly claim for the last 30 years from various people. You could have made that statement back in 1758 and it would be equally untrue.
By all means, feel free to explain, I'm curious as to why you feel that way. I disagree, sure before Linnaeus and taxonomy there wasn't anything better, but the advent of scientific nomenclature made common names obsolete.

Yes, they are more frequently used by the populace but us as people who are interested in and I hope want to be informed about these animals I feel like we could do away with using common names altogether, they're often misleading or unrelated to the actual nature of the animal. The general public isn't going to stop using them anytime soon, but thats hardly a validation of a less than perfect system.
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by Steve Bledsoe »

Could the reference to "rings" be driven by some internal anatomy, maybe?

A similar case that comes to mind is the Lyresnake. The common name is derived from the 'V' shaped marking on the top of the head that resembles an ancient Greek string instrument, but the scientific name "Trimorphodon" refers to the fact that the critter has at least 3 distinctively shaped types of teeth in it's mouth. I guess it could have a common name of Three Shaped Tooth Snake and still be legitimate.

I have to agree with Antonsrkn, though. Common names are basically worthless!
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by chrish »

Antonsrkn wrote:By all means, feel free to explain, I'm curious as to why you feel that way. I disagree, sure before Linnaeus and taxonomy there wasn't anything better, but the advent of scientific nomenclature made common names obsolete.
If that was true, then why hasn't it happened? A lot of things have become obsolete in the last two and a half centuries, but common names are still alive and well and used more than the scientific names.
Yes, they are more frequently used by the populace but us as people who are interested in and I hope want to be informed about these animals I feel like we could do away with using common names altogether, they're often misleading or unrelated to the actual nature of the animal. The general public isn't going to stop using them anytime soon, but thats hardly a validation of a less than perfect system.
No, it isn't a validation for a less than perfect system. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Common names serve an important function - to allow non-scientists to communicate about the world around them.

I agree that many common names are not very descriptive or informative. But that is the beauty of common names, you can change them so that they are better. But to change them you need to create "official" lists of common names. Ornithologists have done it. It isn't perfect, but it is a hell of a lot better than the current status of herps.

If an animal gets a misinformative scientific name (Sciurus niger are only black in a small part of their range, Coluber constrictor isn't a constrictor) it is permanent. It can't be changed even if it is shown to be misleading or otherwise inappropriate under the rules of nomenclature.

And then there are patronyms. They are completely "unrelated to the nature of the animal". If you required that all scientific names be descriptive or in some way informative, it might validate your point. But as long as you let people name things after other people, scientific names will be just as "unrelated to the nature of the animal" if not more.

Which of these names is more informative about the nature of the animal; Lithobates kauffeldi or Atlantic Coast Leopard Frog?

I know you could come up with 100 examples of bad common names and more informative scientific names, but that is exactly my point. Scientific names are flawed as well. It is not a superior system, it is just that has a set of rules that govern it. So why not come up with a system of rules for common names?

I use and believe in the value of scientific names. I also acknowledge that the hodge podge of common english names we have are flawed. But I strongly believe that biologists have a responsibility to create a framework whereby the non-scientist can communicate about the organisms we share the planet with.

There are going to be common names whether you like them or not. And many more people will use them than use the scientific names. So why not have the biologists guide the process rather than stand in its way?
Frankly, I believe that biologists who poo-poo common names and refuse to participate in the process are shirking one if their key responsibilities as scientists - to make their scientific knowledge accessible to the non-scientific public at large.

This is giving me a headache. Maybe I should go take a dose of acetylsalicylic acid. Or do you accept that it is ok for us to use the "obsolete" common name aspirin in place of its scientific name?

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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by simus343 »

True, yet if you go to Russia (not saying you will, just as an example) and try to communicate to a scientist there about this or that type of animal. You have your english common name, he/she has his/her russian common name. You BOTH have the scientific name. Regardless of accuracy of the scientific name to the common names, the scientific names provide a global naming system to refer to an organism by.

Also, making a list of "universal common names" is just as easy as "univeral scientific names", just the second of which has already been done.
Also, scientific nomenclature can be changed when the taxonomy community gets together to talk taxonomy. If a valid, not already taken, name is put forward that makes sense, and is agreed upon (i.e. changing a last name to something descriptive), then it can be done. Change all Coluber constrictor spp to Coluber badattitudus spp :thumb: . If there was an official common name, then it would have to go through to same process to change it officially. Say the Hognose was first described as a blowing adder when discovered and that was IT, final, official common name. To change it to hognose once realised that it isn't an adder would have to go through the same official process. Otherwise, it wouldn't be official, it would be just like any other given common name than can change country to country, state to state, county to county, neighbor to neighbor.

Also, because of the system of taxonomy, even with official common names, by essence of "describing it in common tongue on how it looks, behaves, where it lives" you can have people that don't know better, rural Bob or Sussy (sorry if this name matches anyone's), telling a scientist about an animal and calling it by a different animal's name. Granted they don't know scientific names anyhow, but because of the "viewpoint" of common v scientific names, scientists take common name descriptions with a grain of salt. If common names were the go-to for scientists, then something may be easily misreported by a local naming an animal on how it looks alone, and just assumed to be right.

The reason the binomial nomenclature was made was because there was so much overlap of common names being that were identical referring to two or more different items.

Also, if I find a new organism species, I sure ain't naming it something reasonable to describe the shape, color, anatomy, whatever, I'm going for 'fame and fortune' ladies and gentlemen! :lol: Whateverus lastnameii!

Overall though, for the most part, at least within North America, "official" common names are pretty darn well established. It may be harder though for countries with less studied flora and fauna and more rural lingo varying from watershed to watershed.
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by chris_mcmartin »

I used to think along the lines of "scientific names > common names," in no small part because a few of the books I read when I was younger tended to beat that drum (universal recognition of the scientific name, stability of the nomenclature, etc.).

However, as an example, the animal many of us know as the "black rat snake" has went by at least three different scientific names in the last decade or two...

The animals themselves don't care. It's just our crude human need to organize things and methods to do so. My bookshelves are currently (arguably) organized by general topic; however, if I get sufficient books in one topic to make me reconsider my organizational system (maybe switching from herp guides organized by region, to guides for all manner of flora and fauna organized by state), I may rearrange the books on the shelf, but the books themselves don't change.

Let's say I want to communicate to someone in Japan about caiman lizards. If I try to "play it safe" and use the genus (Dracaena), will they know if I'm talking about the lizard, or the plant by the same genus name? :P
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by chrish »

simus343 wrote:True, yet if you go to Russia (not saying you will, just as an example) and try to communicate to a scientist there about this or that type of animal. You have your english common name, he/she has his/her russian common name. You BOTH have the scientific name. Regardless of accuracy of the scientific name to the common names, the scientific names provide a global naming system to refer to an organism by.
Of course that's true. When talking to a scientist you could use scientific names.
But if you were talking to Dmitri Smith on the streets of Moscow, they wouldn't know the scientific name so you might as well be using the English name. If you want to communicate with him, you need to use the Russian common name.
Also, making a list of "universal common names" is just as easy as "univeral scientific names", just the second of which has already been done.
There is no universal list of scientific names. There are widely accepted names, but there is no "you have to call it this" list. Why do CNAH and SSAR have different lists? Their taxonomy hasn't always matched even for US herps.
Also, scientific nomenclature can be changed when the taxonomy community gets together to talk taxonomy. If a valid, not already taken, name is put forward that makes sense, and is agreed upon (i.e. changing a last name to something descriptive), then it can be done. Change all Coluber constrictor spp to Coluber badattitudus spp :thumb: .


That is actually not true. The rules for choosing scientific names in animals are spelled out very explicitly by the ICZN. There is no rule that would allow the changing of a name because it was inappropriate. In fact, the principle of priority states that the first name given is the right name forever unless there is a new taxonomic arrangement or a detected violation of the other rules (gender, homonyns, etc).
Yes, technically, the ICZN could override inappropriate names, but they don't. If anyone knows of case where the ICZN changed a name because it didn't adequately describe the species, I would love to hear it. AFAIK, it just doesn't happen because it would violate the principle of priority.
If there was an official common name, then it would have to go through to same process to change it officially.


The ornithological community have done this with the over 10,000 species of bird. It happens because they have a prescribed system of rules and they follow them. But most importantly, all participants (scientists, hobbyists (i.e. birders), and the public at large) respect the process.
It isn't a big deal and because there are no rigid rules like priority that handcuff the scientific nomenclature, you can make changes to inappropriate names where needed without regard to whether that was the original common name or not.
Say the Hognose was first described as a blowing adder when discovered and that was IT, final, official common name. To change it to hognose once realised that it isn't an adder would have to go through the same official process.


Exactly. A group of people, hopefully including the scientific community, would get together and change it. But the beauty is that the new official wouldn't have to include the word "blowing" or "adder".
Also, because of the system of taxonomy, even with official common names, by essence of "describing it in common tongue on how it looks, behaves, where it lives" you can have people that don't know better, rural Bob or Sussy (sorry if this name matches anyone's), telling a scientist about an animal and calling it by a different animal's name.


Of course that will happen. You simply point out the error and explain the correct name. If you are a competent scientist and are familiar with local lexicon, you will know what they are talking about. That isn't a failing of standardized common names.

Cathartes aura is often called a "Turkey Buzzard" by uninformed people. But it has an official scientific name (Turkey Vulture) which people can access. You won't find two bird field guides with two different common names for the species. If you take Joe Bob Redneck and tell him the bird should be called Turkey Vulture, they will usually say "Oh, good to know." and change they way they talk about it. But if you insist that it should be called Cathartes aura, they will ignore you.
The reason the binomial nomenclature was made was because there was so much overlap of common names being that were identical referring to two or more different items.
The primary reason is there was no language independent system of naming. It wasn't intended to replace common names.
Overall though, for the most part, at least within North America, "official" common names are pretty darn well established. It may be harder though for countries with less studied flora and fauna and more rural lingo varying from watershed to watershed.
Actually, the two lists for the US don't even agree 100% of the time due to historical infighting and refusal to work together towards a common goal.
Sure, it will be hard to create a worldwide English name list of common names for herps. But that isn't an excuse for not trying. If the scientific/lay bird community can do it for 10,000 species of bird all over the planet, the herp community could as well. We just have to get over our stubborn, ivory tower perspective that common names don't matter.
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by Stohlgren »

Just an aside, the CNAH and SSAR lists are now one and the same:

http://www.cnah.org/createdContent.aspx?cnahId=1773|0
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by cbernz »

chrish wrote:Frankly, I believe that biologists who poo-poo common names and refuse to participate in the process are shirking one if their key responsibilities as scientists - to make their scientific knowledge accessible to the non-scientific public at large.
Yes. I know scientific names for certain taxa that I am interested in, but there are many more that I don't know at all. If I hear a common name, even for an animal I'm not familiar with, I will at least know if it is a lizard, snake, frog, etc.

As for birds, I think if you were on a hawkwatch and said "I see a Falco columbarius chasing a Tachycineta bicolor underneath that kettle of Buteo platypterus," you would get pushed off the mountain.
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by Noah M »

The ornithological community have done this with the over 10,000 species of bird. It happens because they have a prescribed system of rules and they follow them. But most importantly, all participants (scientists, hobbyists (i.e. birders), and the public at large) respect the process.
It isn't a big deal and because there are no rigid rules like priority that handcuff the scientific nomenclature, you can make changes to inappropriate names where needed without regard to whether that was the original common name or not.
It was mentioned elsewhere about the vulture. The fact that the ornithological community has created a list of accepted common names doesn't mean locals won't keep calling them buzzards. I'm not sure the reason birders opted for using the common names, but local names will always be around. The buzzard/vulture thing proves the point.

This is a discussion about communication. I would venture a guess that 90% of the conversations about animals use the common name, and that 90% of the time accuracy doesn't matter. I don't know how many people call Plestiodon inexpectatus blue-tailed skinks, which are clearly not P. e. lividus. Or are they Eumeces spp. now? Or how many people call the geckos down here anoles and vice versa. The point is, they saw a lizard at night on their window. Beyond that, neither party cares.

The scientific name is nice because of when the common name fails, either because people have the same common name for two different species, or because international scientists can recognize a genus or family name and get and idea of the animal. I think both are important. A good analogy escapes me right now(encryption maybe?), but we really need both.
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by chris_mcmartin »

captainjack0000 wrote:how many people call the geckos down here anoles and vice versa. The point is, they saw a lizard at night on their window. Beyond that, neither party cares.
There's always the dreaded "salamander" for any of various species of gecko, anole, and skink (at least in the South). :x


chrish wrote: If anyone knows of case where the ICZN changed a name because it didn't adequately describe the species, I would love to hear it. AFAIK, it just doesn't happen because it would violate the principle of priority.
The original and therefore "official" name for Megalosaurus was Scrotum humanum.
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by chrish »

captainjack0000 wrote:The scientific name is nice because of when the common name fails, either because people have the same common name for two different species, or because international scientists can recognize a genus or family name and get and idea of the animal. I think both are important. A good analogy escapes me right now(encryption maybe?), but we really need both.
Exactly my point. Both are important. And I believe it falls to the herpetological community to take the responsiblity of developing and maintaining common names the way they do scientific names. If we don't do it, who is supposed to do it?

People will continue to make mistakes.

I'm glad CNAH finally agreed to come into agreement with SSAR. That rift (which goes back 20+ years) was detrimental to nomenclature in North American herpetology, IMHO.
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by chrish »

And to the original point of this post... :lol:

Obviously when Geoffrey de St. Hilaire first looked at specimens in the museum in Paris, the specimen obviously had a conspicuous ringed pattern so it was named Gecko annularis. He even called it "Ringed Gecko" (well......Le Gecko annulaire). I don't know if he even saw a live specimen?

You can read the detailed original description on page 130 here - http://vipersgarden.at/PDF_files/PDF-3589.pdf
It is in French, which I don't read enough of to make sense of it. But it appears very detailed so it probably really explains the name.

So the real question isn't who changed to Ringed Gecko, but rather who changed it to the new name "White-spotted Gecko". That was the mistake. Unfortunately, we don't keep records of who uses a common name first like we do with scientific names.
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by chrish »

Fieldnotes wrote:American's don't follow the French, my Great Grandfather (god rest his sole) who fought i'm WWII knows this well, and his words were, "the french follow no one cause they are too busy running." So now, someone says that we should follow the french because of some cowardice, old literature that makes no sense, and decides its going to be ringed gecko. So annoying.

whomever suggested changing that name, should do as the dishonorable Chinese, and do themself in or at least dropout from the committee. BTW, the committee can not be that bright if they accepted that barf. Whats next Stinkpot and Horny Toad. The biggest shame of all is that there is a committee that NEVER asked the input from the public. Wakeup! there is a little thing called the internet.

Demanding that the people accept a taxonomic name, without the consultation from the govern and rejecting any criticism, just because, is strictly against scientific policy. The SSAR only accepting papers using their lame taxonomy list makes them sound a lot like Communist Russia, "when in Rome do as the stupid."

The SSAR Herp list is totally screwed up. For example, nightsnake and night lizard. Wha..whaa...what the Funk! Should I keep going, no I think not, I dont have the time :sleep:
Did someone forget their meds today? :lol:
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck »

The linked text indeed mentions (in French) presence of caudal rings.

Scientific names are the product of taxonomic research and nomenclatural rules. The goal of taxonomy, at least, is (or should be) reflecting phylogenetic relationships. The fact that this (usually temporarily) may cause unstability may be annoying, but is imho irrelevant. Science does not have to be practical, easy, convenient, ... but evidence-based, imho.
Vernaculars and scientific names both serve a (imho valuable) purpose. Neither can ever be stable, because changes in the latter should cause changes in the former.
Fieldnotes wrote:American's don't follow the French, my Great Grandfather (god rest his sole) who fought i'm WWII knows this well, and his words were, "the french follow no one cause they are too busy running." So now, someone says that we should follow the french because of some cowardice, old literature that makes no sense, and decides its going to be ringed gecko. So annoying.
Fieldnotes, I generally appreciate your contributions around here, but xenophobia against a nation, based on a single person's conception of that nation's countrymen from 70 years ago? Please not on this forum....
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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

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Re: Ringed Wall Gecko? Wha...whaa... What happened

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck »

Maybe my point is rather the irrelevance than the political correctness ;) . Nevermind...
Fieldnotes wrote:Being Politically Correct always means having to say sorry. :beer:
I'm still working on that last part. If its any consolation, I love their fries
Which they actually stole from my countrymen :evil: ;)
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