Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

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Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » January 27th, 2016, 7:51 pm

This subject was inspired by the recent post on myths and hoaxes. However, it's something I've wondered about several times. I recently moved close to the Sacramento Delta area and have found quite a few striped phase gopher snakes along with a few Delta Influenced king snakes. I can't help but wonder what is the actual determining factor causing aberrant patterns on the unique variations of our most common snakes. first to get our minds on the right track of what I'm suggesting, lets take a look at this snake that was found in Yolo by Steven Hinds http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/i ... bhubbs.jpg Most experienced field herpers have heard of or are already aware of this find. Now, I want to talk about gigas...

I flipped a board on the way home one evening after dusk. It was during the beginning of spring from what I remember. I luckily flipped a medium-sized sexually mature adult Giant Gartersnake. I was pretty surprised considering the only species of snake I had ever found under the board before this were Yellow-bellied Racers. Possibly a small gopher snake on one occasion, however this board had became known to me as the YBR board (a board seemingly dumped with various garbage on the side of a road). The following day I flipped the same bored again and found another Giant garternake of the same size. Amazed, I decided to return an hour later to see if anything else would be under the board and to my surprise, I saw a third. all three snakes noticeably different snakes due to variations in color and size. I'm a hundred percent sure all 3 snakes were different snakes. So then I thought to myself in recollection, how is it that I've never seen them under this board before, which had been flipped several times, and then find three in a row Within a 48-hour period. just coincidence or is there an aspect to this that is being overlooked...Because of the time of year, I wondered if the first gIgas was actually a female which had laid down a scent trail of pheromones leading to the board. and that the following two had followed her scent trail there with intentions to breed. Is it possible for this to happen? Have any species of snakes been recorded or proven to leave scent trails like this? Ok now the next thought...

It seems that one habitatal aspect that has been associated with kingsnake Morphism is saltwater influence of these brackish deltas. I used to wonder if the morphism was caused by different elements from the ocean being absorbed into the plant life that rodents eat and then consumed by the snakes. but could that be a strong enough determining factor to actually change the construction of DNA? Doesn't sound too probable however, if a human being can spend his life in the gymBuilding muscles, eating healthy, or learning music, ect... and then pass those traits on to their young... Things that aren't necessarily defined in a person's DNA until that parent person teaches themself how to do it... Then maybe it's possible for a snake to pass on coloration that it developed or rather an aberrancy it developed by consuming or absorbing certain minerals. I've been thinking outside the box more or less to say the least... Lol So, what's the deal with this salt water in connection to the morphs? How do striped phase gopher snakes get stripes like garter snakes? I see evidence of striping pattern along the sides of these goper snakes, suggesting the recessive trait for stripes (assuming a trait for stripes is recessive to a trait for blotches) but how did that DND for stripes get into the bloodline of Gopher Snakes to begin with? What possibly happened dating back through overwhelming numbers of generations ? Why stripes on kingsnakes? Why speckled patterning that is very similar to common Gopher Snake scale Coloration patterns? Ok, here's the closing synopsis...

If it's truly possible for a male snake to determine a female by detecting the correct pheromones of it's species. How could the smell given off by blackish waters ( noticeable to even the human nose) that is absorbed and consistently influencing these delta muds, effect, mask, or drown out the smell of these pheromones which are vital to the serpents decisions to accurately choose a mate? Further more... Any veteran field herper with enough experience in flipping has come across the scenario of predator and prey species (kings with other snakes) utilizing the same cover peacefully. How easily could a femal getula coil up cozyily in a bed of female gigas or gopher snake pheromones? How common a situation occurs where a valley garter snuggles in tight quarters of a female gopher snake...? I have a pet Valley Garter morph and pet Gopher morph house together In the same terrarium (Because they were found in same field) and they bask and sleep together comfortably. So, the mystery question arises....Are morps the result of natural hybridism?

Any information supporting or disproving this subject is more than welcome!! Hopefully this can become a serious topic from numerous aspects, point of view, field stories, breeding experience, questions, ect... that everyone can comment and chime in on. Please keep in respectful as debate is more than welcome, however answers and enlightenment is what we all would like to achieve...

Have at it :thumb: :beer:

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » January 27th, 2016, 8:18 pm

Here's a bit more info on that incredible find. From the book, Common Kingsnakes by Brian Hubbs

Image20160127_201217-1 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » January 28th, 2016, 3:05 am

Here are the snakes. Found crossing the same road at nearly the exact same spot (no more than 10 ft away from each each, on different days). Both male...however, if they were both female, they would be rubbing and combining pheromones (even more so under confined moist AC or natural cover.

Image20151107_171758 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr


And what about snakes being able to absorb water without drinking? Are minerals absorbed through the skin and into the scales? Color is just an illusion (proven scientific fact. i think the study was done on bird feathers) there is no such thing as true color pigment. It's a result of how light reflects off of it. So if minerals that reflect as reddish, green, or granite colors (specked rattlers) on rocks, creek beds, ect... any and all colors of each individual biome... those minerals being absorbed into the scales through ground water during hibernation, resulting in making the snake better Camouflaged To it's environment. some species more acceptable Than others.... and minerals from the ocean in delta waters even influence the Alligator lizard Patterns in the yolo delta and further tward petaluma causing a more brackish pattern. What do they look like down in LA where the the morph kings are found? What about thr melanistic legless lizard along the coast?

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Fundad » January 28th, 2016, 8:18 am

My father found the Hybrid you have above a number of years ago.

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » January 28th, 2016, 11:06 am

I know :) what can you tell us about it, Brian? Without giving exact location, was it found in or near brackish water? Did you guys ever attempt to breed it out with a gopher and/or kingsnake? Ya know when I first became aware of the find I had recently stumbled upon those high elevation olive green blue-bellied Sierra Garters. That was about the time I started getting into rarities and morphs. In fact, finding a white bellied pacific ringneck was the snake that brought me to the internet world of herping. Before ever looking for a blackbelly I set out in search of a king gopher snake along the sacramento river levee! :mrgreen: I tried to use the vegetation and leaf litter in the photo as a clue on where to look and the only place I could think of was that old levee road my dad use to take me fishing on. That's still the top ranking Yolo county find as far as I'm concerned! :thumb: :beer: Do you have any input or opinion about how the snake was created? Are there any other photographs of the snake and/or it's pattern?

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » January 28th, 2016, 4:09 pm

Also, on page 50 of Common Kingsnakes it discusses striped kingsnakes and there relation to wetlands. How it was thought that stripe phase had come from desert kings in CA and that kingsnake morphism had started in Northern CA and migrated south into LA. However, the theory didn't seem to hold water because of gaps between the fresno populations and southern populations. Also, it talks about the two stripe pattern Occurring only in southern populations...

What do we find in wetlands...? gartersnakes. What kind of gartersnakes are found only in the southern part of LA...? Two-striped gartersnakes. Are these Two-striped garters found near or up stream from the two striped kingsnake morphs? I've only herped so cal once...so, I need input from you experience southern herpers! How possible is the correlation between two stripe kings and two stripe kings as hybrids from years and years ago? Are there no gartersnakes found where desert phase kings are found? What about lateralis? Are they found near or upstream of two striped kingsnakes?

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » January 28th, 2016, 4:34 pm

One last thing... the result of this stripedking cross with a milksnake seemed to hold some dominate traits that not only passed on the stripe...but resulted in something strikingly similar to a striped phase gopher snake. Bold black dorsal out lining a pale inner stripe. Gartersnake DND passed through on species to the next? Combination of garter >>>gopher>>>king>>>milk? Was the striped king that was used to produce this snake have a Parent originally from Yolo county? My stripe phase gopher has a dorsal is very similar...


Image20160128_161224 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Fundad » January 28th, 2016, 8:25 pm

Here is a interesting fact, that snake was pure cold blooded mean. Bite City!!! :lol: It was never breed to anything as far as I know. I don't blame him, having an identity crisis and all. :lol:

It was found in Grassland near flood control of fresh water.

I am not qualified to get into genes much, but IMO Striping blends in well in wetland/grassland areas and may just be natural selection.. Since so much of the grassland and plant life we see today is non native it makes it hard to even begin to speculate...

Interesting theories but thats about it..

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » January 29th, 2016, 2:15 am

:lol: Ya know, I don't have too much diversity in common kingsnake locale finds, but I can say this... First kingsnakes I've ever seen coil up and try to bite me were in Yolo Delta morph territory :lol: ...they are some grouchy buggers out there. They seem to be more aggressive.

This area where the King Gopher was found...could it have been brackish water influenced habitat at one time? ...generations before the snake was found there? ...if so, how recent?

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 13th, 2016, 1:03 pm

regalringneck wrote:Mr. Porter, 1’stly I am sorry for causing you any angs’t with my post, my choice of words was certainly not my best. I was (& am) merely a bit exasperated that you repeatedly hijack into this thread w/ a completely unrelated topic that should be its own stand alone thread, that rudeness was the subject of my rebuke, not you as an entity. Fwiw (for what it worth) I don’t even own nor use a red dot system, I still utilize tridiated night sights combined with muscle memory (old school tactics).
Good on you for protecting the lady, but know it’s a fine line between bravery & foolhardiness, your mother would want me to point that out (as would mine to me!). Life is a magic gift, don’t waste it on fools. If its of any comfort, it’s probably better to be a forum hijacker than a hoaxer! But you’re better than both of those, as am I. Again, I apologize for my rash choice of words.
I normally post using metaphors, analogies, allegories, colloquialisms, acronyms, etc. & I’ve been told for years, that folks find it difficult to impossible to comprehend, case in point I’m really not a jaguar named el jefe nor gay … I just used those terms, occasionally linking a particular song, to create my own form & style, for the task at hand; recently to try to instigate/provoke/inspire; what is legally known as “voluntary mutual combat” from a long time cyber stalker & general pest of mine. Unfortunately, he is just smart enough to not take the bait. : { (sad face icon). OK, I’ve been as clear as I can. Peace out
No worries ;) apology excepted. As much as I hate to talk about it, I figured my words would find the good in any person that has it within them.

I would like to say, with a respectful tone, that I never intended to hijack the post. I thought it was an appropriate issue here considering the amount of disbelief and lack of support my theory faces. Not a legendary hoax or myth but it falls into the realm of disbelief. The fact that a gopher snake X kingsnake hybrid has been found and documented proof that it can in fact happen...should'nt be ignored or taken for granted. It could never happen between a kingsnake and a rattlesnake (Thank god!) but a predator vs. prey hybrid has been proven to be possible. It has me wondering if all morphs were influenced by a hybrid that was created generations before the morph was ever born. As of now, from what I gather... morphs are thought of to be a superior step in evolution and morphism better adapts a species to its environment. My theory doesn't necessarily go against that thought... rather, it supports it in a different perspective. A gopher snake is adapted to its environment in its own way.... A kingsnake is adapted in different ways. the two put together create a snake who is twice as adapted to its environment.

So let's say the King-gopher snake bred and birthed 20 natural young before it was captured. maybe only three or four showed any visual morphism. However all 20 carried the traIts of a kingsnake and a gopher snake. One of the snakes, that looked normal in regards to its species, could have passed that trait down through two or three generations before the morphism actually had a chance to turn into a visual pattern that was evident to the human eye.... just like red hair and green eyes in humans. the evidence of that gene passing down but not being strong enough to change much is evident in all these snakes we find with these little variations. there are Minut discrepancies in pattern but not enough to necessarily be considered a morph. and the morphism seems to be more likely in a delta habitat than others. so why in these muddy wet Delta environments is the trait more abundant...?? ( http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =6&t=23053 )

I am looking at this picture of a ringneck snake eating a mouse and I'm reminded of something they call scenting. I've never done this. however someone told me that if you rub a lizard on a mouse's back then a snake who refuses to eat a mouse will smell the scent of the lizard and eventually develop an acquired taste to eat the mouse . Then afterwards, you don't have to rub the scent of a lizard on the mouse's back... The snake will just eat mice on its own. this is something common with snakes like whipsnakes and racers where within a species certain individuals will only eat lizards while others will eat mice naturally on their own in their environment within the same biomes. it's an individual choice of neighboring snakes. how does a snake develop different taste for different prey on its own in a natural environment. every field herper knows that blue bellies and just about any lizard can be flipped under a board with a nest of baby mice... coexisting. Eventually a blue moon scenario happens... and a snake eats a mouse instead of the lizard because the mouse smells like the lizard after rubbing against it unintentionally during the night when a lizard is sleeping in a mouse's active in doing things...so now apply that scenting senario to individual serpent breeding choices and you have me wondering which subspecies of gartersnake mated with a kingsnake in La that resulted in a striped phase king snake... because whatever subspecies it is, they aren't found in Northern California within Yolo County... because our kingsnake morphs do not contain stripe pattern DNA ....never have! however the black belly trait and speckled trait are common in Yolo County which means that generations and generations ago a hybrid that has a dominant trait must have happened between 2 species found in both Southern and Northern California locales. but what I'm doing now is just tipping the iceberg. eventually I will come to a conclusion on this if I can get anyone to start posting some damn data to help me figure it out :lol:

I meant no disrespect to this post or its author... I find this far more fascinating then discussing whether or not someone falsified isn'a deciding on some island... as well as more Significant.... I wish I could Influence more snake and reptile people with more info to start debating this because I lack my doctrine note readings...and I will move this over to my theory post right now.

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Fieldnotes » February 13th, 2016, 9:26 pm

Could that "Gopher/King" is an average Great Plains Rat Snake or something else?

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 14th, 2016, 7:19 am

Nah, I think it's legit... the nose and neck of a Great Plains rat snake look slightly more narrow and elongated. The Gopher/king looks to have a face that more resembles a Cal king. It's kind of a bad angle of the head in the photo, but it seems apparent to me due to the flatness of the head and roundness of the nose. I wish I could see more pics tho... cough, cough :D

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by rtdunham » February 14th, 2016, 9:32 pm

One of the problems I have with your hypothesis is that it seems to have an assumption--or an inclination to believe--that characteristics in one species must come from another (i.e., striping in king snakes and gopher snakes). Consider albinism: Yes, it has occurred in lampropeltis and in pituophis. But does that in any way suggest recent hybridization of those species, allowing the transfer of the morph from one to the other? Much less, garter snakes in wetlands. How then would you explain albinism in deer, or owls, or snakes from other continents? All occur.

I'm no expert. But imho, mutations occur periodically in all animals (there's a great book on mutations of the HIV/AIDS virus, called The Chimp and the River, by David Quammen). Some cause replicable, inheritable changes--the recessive "morphs" often referred to in Colubrids, for example. Others cause minute deviations in color or pattern, not dramatically as in striping on a typically banded species, but just the slant of the 8th ring or the the range of differences between tricolor and tangerine hondurans. These may be "polymorphic" changes, the results of the interaction of multiple genes.

Yes, a gene may have been "hidden" in a species for decades or centuries or more, until captive breeding propitiously paired two carriers and resulted in the phenotype's appearance. By that logic, a gene may have occurred hundreds of thousands of years ago before thamnophis and lampropeltis and pituophis and others diverged and evolved and may have persisted into all three of today's species. But that's simply not necessarily true. Occam's Razor says the most likely explanation is more often the correct one: I'd argue the garters-and-striped-snakes-in-wetlands hypothesis fails that test by overlooking far more likely explanations, the rare "natural" hybrid notwithstanding.

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 15th, 2016, 1:31 am

From what I understand albinism (and melanistic qualities) is influenced by achromatosis which causes deficiencies in the production of melanin pigments. I'm not expert either, but I think pattern and color are two different ballparks of DNA code. This is why we see Brown & yellow Cal kings along with very dark brown & cream (Black and white) with tradition banded patterned looking snakes throughout nearly ALL areas in there range (aside from maybe desert phase king snakes which as far as I know. Ive never found or heard of a brown and yellow desert phase king... Probably because they are from more isolated populations. more pure bred or inbred however you want to look at it. What isn't consistent throughout the entire range of California king snakes is aberrant pattern variations. The meshed and obscured pattern appearance has only occur in the low ground wetlands, grasslands that were once wetlands, and muddy delta-like habitats. Especially striped phased traits in both gopher snakes and king snakesI There are only certain areas where the stripe phase occur which tend to be central valley up north. Once you get further south the striped face may reach the coast but I'm not sure because I'm not a SoCal Herper ( can any SoCal herpers with experience on finding kingsnakes with striped pattern give some info on what kind of range or at least info if it stretches out away from grasslands and Delta wetlands?) I believe the Stripws were caused by the hibernation/hibridation with a gartersnake or at least that's what this theory suggests.

There are two gartersnake species that are the most likely candidate to be responsible for this miraculous feat of nature...gigas and sirtalis (fitchi?? ...whats the SoCal range for stripers?). They are the only two species that stretch from the northern to southern central valleys. so I think either one or possibly both are DNA compatible for such a thing. Why don't we see Striped phaze in the Sierras or the Bay Area? It has something to do with either the salt water or simply the stinky muddy waters of these enriched farmlands full of beneficial minerals. I'm thinking accidental scenting has something to do with it. pheromones soaking into the muddy waters and/or the smelly mud lands waters are throwing these snakes a curve ball. Maybe younger snakes with little to no experience in breeding. I think the caramel brown coloration is possibly a mineral influenced change. A color/pigment DNA Adaptation. however I believe things like stripes and aberrant pattern are a result of these hybrid occurrences. A combination of the perfect or rather imperfect circumstances.

So, the next thing we need to establish is this...are the striped phase in SoCal found in the same habitat as those two species of gartersnake and only together with the wetland scenario? because we don't tend to see stripe phase in the dry habitats. ..like, NEVER right? Even though a lot of those dry habitats are grassy foothills, which grass seems to have been the explanation for striped pattern occurrence up until now...

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 15th, 2016, 1:45 am

Of the two species of garter snake... I'm leaning towards the couchii descendant which is gigas. Here is why... if it's a species compatibility as opposed to a subspecies compatibility then it would make more sense that the couchii would be compatible. Where Sierra gartersnakes are abundant, California kingsnakes are not due to elevation and Environment. so there is less of a chance for this hybrid scenario to happen and we all know the mountains are far more pristine than the smelly muddy waters of the valley. so less of a confusing cover up smell mixed in with the pheromones.

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 15th, 2016, 2:50 am

rtdunham wrote:
I'm no expert. But imho, mutations occur periodically in all animals (there's a great book on mutations of the HIV/AIDS virus, called The Chimp and the River, by David Quammen). Some cause replicable, inheritable changes--the recessive "morphs" often referred to in Colubrids, for example. Others cause minute deviations in color or pattern, not dramatically as in striping on a typically banded species, but just the slant of the 8th ring or the the range of differences between tricolor and tangerine hondurans. These may be "polymorphic" changes, the results of the interaction of
Also, with all due respect to your response (which is greatly Appreciated!! :) Thank you!) I'm not putting my faith into a book about a virus we can't even figure out how to cure... obviously some wrong thinking going on there. You have to know what to fix before you can fix it... and you have to know why the problems happening before solving it... perhaps they're looking at the wrong DNA sequence and trying to win a ball game in the wrong Stadium

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Kelly Mc » February 15th, 2016, 8:27 pm

Blotched, banded, chevroned, striped, these are all pattern formats found in species of snakes all over the world, and other herps as well.

Perhaps pattern is too basic to attach as much meaning as what you are proposing?

Just the friendliest note of questioning intended here.

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by RobertH » February 15th, 2016, 10:00 pm

Perhaps... Purely a hypothetical... there is a herper who catches all the kingsnakes and paints his own pattern on them. that would explain it :)
I think it is crazy how there are so many different varieties in color, and pattern in all animals. This is a very interesting topic.
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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Kelly Mc » February 15th, 2016, 10:14 pm

It is!

An interesting note is how many juvenile animals - from mammalian carnivores And herbivores, to many reptiles, (geckos come to mind presently ie standings, E.macularis) have significant banding type markings that are lost as they pattern out to adulthood.

I remark on this juvenile banding as an example of how universal pattern types are in the animal kingdom. So diverse yet repeated .

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 15th, 2016, 11:34 pm

[color=#FF0 perceiving you correctly000][/color]
Kelly Mc wrote:Blotched, banded, chevroned, striped, these are all pattern formats found in species of snakes all over the world, and other herps as well.

Perhaps pattern is too basic to attach as much meaning as what you are proposing?

Just the friendliest note of questioning intended here.
Your response is always welcome as long as you don't use too many words the I have to double check with google to make sure I'm perceiving you correctly :lol: :P

Yes, all of those patterns are common traits throughout the vast majority of snake species all over the world. However, not all of those attributes appear in every snake species. you don't find mountain kingsnakes with stripes. you don't find garter snakes lacking dorsal stripes... Maybe a garter snake lacking the color of its dorsal stripe which makes it appear patternless. But, how often do we see that? Im focusing on king snakes and gopher snakes because of this reason... Gopher snakes with stripes are not found in the Sierras and they are not found in the Bay Area they are only found in the Central Valley region. so if a trait for stripes were existing in gopher snakes , we would see it happen in Great Basin gopher snakes, the gopher snakes that roam the Sierras, and gopher snakes in the Bay Area. however, we do not!! same goes for California king snakes. there are no speckles or stripes on California king snakes in the Bay Area or in the Sierras. this is very strong evidence that a trait for stripes and speckles is not something every kingsnake carries in his DNA patterning information... It suggests that speckles and stripes are coming from a different genetic patterning Code. so what are the suspects that are most likely responsible.... All Gopher snakes have speckles no matter where the locale...all gartersnakes have stripes no matter what the locale...and a hybrid between a gopher snake and king snake has not only been photographed but captured by one of the people who is a well established and honourable field herper. so that is proven factual evidence that it is possible and can happen as far as Im concerned. and speckles and Stripes I believe are what confirm that to be true


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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by mwentz » February 16th, 2016, 12:46 am

While I am hesitant to post anything, but whatever.

For your test to see if the locals with non- normal patterns (stripped gophers, or kings, or whatever), and seeing if they are of hybrid origin, all you have to do is find a large enough sampling of mtDNA. If striping is super present in a local, and it comes from a different species, there should be some mitochondrial DNA floating around that comes from the alien species. For example, if you think the stripe of Cal kings comes from striped gophers then some of the population of striped cal kings should have some gopher snake mitochondria in them.

Now I know that mtDNA is only passed on by the female, but if you think that hybridization is happening much more than 1 or 2 times, it is unlikely that only males of the donating species are doing the hybridization.

If none of the abberent populations have mtDNA variations, it is unlikely that hybridization is the culprit. If you sample all the abberent populations, (assuming they are of hybrid origin), I would still expect to find a small percentage without mtDNA variations from hybrid origins, but I would not expect them all to show no mtDNA from donating species.

If all the abberent populations have the correct mtDNA, then it is very unlikely that hybrids are the origin for patter abberetions.

Another test you could do, to see if the similar patterns are allelic is to intentionally hybridize striped to striped or whatever the other possible cases are. Assuming that striped is recessive, then a striped gopher to a striped cal king should produce all striped hybrid babies. If the genes are not allelic, there is still, but much lower chance the origin is hybrid.

And finally the most expensive but through test would be to find the genes involved and squence them. if the genes are of hybrid origin, especially if recent, the genetic pattern should be very similar, if not identical.


/in full disclosure I don't believe that hybrids are the reason for pattern abberations.

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 16th, 2016, 1:30 am

Awesome! Thanks for posting. I don't believe the mitochondrial DNA is coming from a striped phase gopher snake (unless its being passed down through the Gopher snake). I'm wondering if it has been passed down from a gartersnake. Gartersnake hybrids with both gopher and kingsnakes either separately or indirectly. So if only gopher snakes are compatible with kings and garter snakes only compatible with gopher snakes. Then the striped kingsnake trait developed from a male kingsnake mating with a female gopher X garter hybrid. Then that female birthed at least one female snake from the clutch that had stripes or at least carried the mitochondrial DNA for cal king striping pattern. Now that DID NOT happen in northern california because there are no recorded stripe phase kingsnakes. A keep in mind this is just one of the possible scenarios brought forth as an example (talking to the class/ everyone reading this, not just mwentz). It's possible that the king male or female, and garter male or female, came together for this miracle. Now how could this miracle situation come about so frequent that they find many stripe phase? Well, it's happened more than once, maybe several times, possibly with more than one type of gartersnake to create enough stripe morph female to continually pass down the trait. Keep in mind, there have been thousands of years to establish the hybrid trait in those locales! Didn't happen yesterday. And even now...finding aberrant kings and striped gophers in norcal are still a needle in a haystack and you have to look in the exact area it occurs. Because it IS NOT occuring outside of those locales. Only in the wetlands of the central NorCal valley region. Is that true in SoCal as well? because as far as I know, they don't occur in the Bay Area or in the mountains.. only in Delta wetland habitat.

So, we need to test one of SoCal stripe kings for garter mtDNA is what your saying, right? has that already been done? Seems like that should have been the first hypothesis to consider unless everyone was completely sold on the thought of evolution and Darwin theory at the time that the stripe phase were tested... If they were ever tested

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by mwentz » February 16th, 2016, 2:13 am

Porter wrote:Awesome! Thanks for posting. I don't believe the mitochondrial DNA is coming from a striped phase gopher snake (unless its being passed down through the Gopher snake). I'm wondering if it has been passed down from a gartersnake. Gartersnake hybrids with both gopher and kingsnakes either separately or indirectly. So if only gopher snakes are compatible with kings and garter snakes only compatible with gopher snakes. Then the striped kingsnake trait developed from a male kingsnake mating with a female gopher X garter hybrid. Then that female birthed at least one female snake from the clutch that had stripes or at least carried the mitochondrial DNA for cal king striping pattern. Now that DID NOT happen in northern california because there are no recorded stripe phase kingsnakes. A keep in mind this is just one of the possible scenarios brought forth as an example (talking to the class/ everyone reading this, not just mwentz). It's possible that the king male or female, and garter male or female, came together for this miracle. Now how could this miracle situation come about so frequent that they find many stripe phase? Well, it's happened more than once, maybe several times, possibly with more than one type of gartersnake to create enough stripe morph female to continually pass down the trait. Keep in mind, there have been thousands of years to establish the hybrid trait in those locales! Didn't happen yesterday. And even now...finding aberrant kings and striped gophers in norcal are still a needle in a haystack and you have to look in the exact area it occurs. Because it IS NOT occuring outside of those locales. Only in the wetlands of the central NorCal valley region. Is that true in SoCal as well? because as far as I know, they don't occur in the Bay Area or in the mountains.. only in Delta wetland habitat.

So, we need to test one of SoCal stripe kings for garter mtDNA is what your saying, right? has that already been done? Seems like that should have been the first hypothesis to consider unless everyone was completely sold on the thought of evolution and Darwin theory at the time that the stripe phase were tested... If they were ever tested

Wait. What? you are saying or offering the hypothesis that stripes in lampropeltini come from gaternsnakes?

However skeptical, I am willing to play along with gopher x king hybrids, but king or gopher x garter hybrids are not a thing and cannot be a thing. At least most of the lampropeltini have a 16:20 macro/micro chromosome arangement, and are therefore compatible, but garters have somthing around 34:2 arrangement (it is variable between species). There is not any way you are going to get some sort of compatible chromosomal arrangement from that. They might do the dance (still unlikely), but no viable offspring are going to happen.

In this case your first test for your hypothesis would be to even get living babies from a garter x gopher or king. First problem is one is an egg layer and the other live bearing. Well not the first problem, but one of them. At the very very best you might get mules, but I doubt there could even be a possible way to get viable chromosomal arangements from that.

Some of the lampropeltini are not even viable crosses (Subocs have more chromosomes), and they are closely related.

/Not trying to be mean, or create another flame war thread. Just pointing out some genetic facts. I could be wrong, I am a lot, but I don't think garters and kings are hybridizing.

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 16th, 2016, 2:59 am

Not at all, you are more than welcome! This is exactly the debate I was hoping someone would stir up with me. It's the only way we can get to the truth.

So, to answer my question... They most likely did not test a stripe-phase king or a stripe-phase gopher snake for gartersnake striping mtDNA because they assumed that it wasn't possible due to gartersnakes giving live birth. I'm willing to bet that the DNA for forming and egg is within the female snake of an egg laying species, which female is what your saying makes it more likely. so, which is more possible? That a hybrid of live bearing snake with an egg laying snake result in egg laying or live bearing? Is it more likely that a male gopher snake impregnated a female gartersnake? ...and the egg simpily wasn't need because other DNA vital to live birth is dominated and hyjacked the code for egg laying?

I think gigas may be the culprit.

Also, let's step back from the king X cross for a moment because for one...I don't live in SoCal and have never found a Striped king lol....and two, I have no experience to reference it. Let's instead focus on the original thoughts I had that inspired this post, which are:

1) Stripe-phase gopher snake = gartersnake X gopher Snake hybrid

2) Speckled kingsnake = kingsnake X gopher snake hybrid (where only the mtDNA for speckles have resulted in a dominant visual appearance...NOT like the Hinds Gopher X king hybrid where the mtDNA for blothes (and pigment) have also resulted in a dominant combination over banding.

3) Do we know for sure what the trait is for striping looks like in genetic code (meaning, has it been tested and prooven)? Is it different trait code for each species and if so, can it be distiguished between a garter species and gopher species? ...is there a chart display similar to the chart display for all possibilitie combinations for recessive vs dominant eye color in humans? (Mandel theory charts)

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 16th, 2016, 3:03 am

PLEASE REFER TO THIS LINK FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION RELATING TO THIS TOPIC

PLEASE REFER TO THIS LINK FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION RELATING TO THIS TOPIC

PLEASE REFER TO THIS LINK FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION RELATING TO THIS TOPIC



http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =6&t=23123

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 16th, 2016, 12:13 pm

mwentz wrote:
Porter wrote:Awesome! Thanks for posting. I don't believe the mitochondrial DNA is coming from a striped phase gopher snake (unless its being passed down through the Gopher snake). I'm wondering if it has been passed down from a gartersnake. Gartersnake hybrids with both gopher and kingsnakes either separately or indirectly. So if only gopher snakes are compatible with kings and garter snakes only compatible with gopher snakes. Then the striped kingsnake trait developed from a male kingsnake mating with a female gopher X garter hybrid. Then that female birthed at least one female snake from the clutch that had stripes or at least carried the mitochondrial DNA for cal king striping pattern. Now that DID NOT happen in northern california because there are no recorded stripe phase kingsnakes. A keep in mind this is just one of the possible scenarios brought forth as an example (talking to the class/ everyone reading this, not just mwentz). It's possible that the king male or female, and garter male or female, came together for this miracle. Now how could this miracle situation come about so frequent that they find many stripe phase? Well, it's happened more than once, maybe several times, possibly with more than one type of gartersnake to create enough stripe morph female to continually pass down the trait. Keep in mind, there have been thousands of years to establish the hybrid trait in those locales! Didn't happen yesterday. And even now...finding aberrant kings and striped gophers in norcal are still a needle in a haystack and you have to look in the exact area it occurs. Because it IS NOT occuring outside of those locales. Only in the wetlands of the central NorCal valley region. Is that true in SoCal as well? because as far as I know, they don't occur in the Bay Area or in the mountains.. only in Delta wetland habitat.

So, we need to test one of SoCal stripe kings for garter mtDNA is what your saying, right? has that already been done? Seems like that should have been the first hypothesis to consider unless everyone was completely sold on the thought of evolution and Darwin theory at the time that the stripe phase were tested... If they were ever tested

Wait. What? you are saying or offering the hypothesis that stripes in lampropeltini come from gaternsnakes?

However skeptical, I am willing to play along with gopher x king hybrids, but king or gopher x garter hybrids are not a thing and cannot be a thing. At least most of the lampropeltini have a 16:20 macro/micro chromosome arangement, and are therefore compatible, but garters have somthing around 34:2 arrangement (it is variable between species). There is not any way you are going to get some sort of compatible chromosomal arrangement from that. They might do the dance (still unlikely), but no viable offspring are going to happen.

In this case your first test for your hypothesis would be to even get living babies from a garter x gopher or king. First problem is one is an egg layer and the other live bearing. Well not the first problem, but one of them. At the very very best you might get mules, but I doubt there could even be a possible way to get viable chromosomal arangements from that.

Some of the lampropeltini are not even viable crosses (Subocs have more chromosomes), and they are closely related.

/Not trying to be mean, or create another flame war thread. Just pointing out some genetic facts. I could be wrong, I am a lot, but I don't think garters and kings are hybridizing.
Ok, last night I thought of a way to demonstrate the possibility.... Even as impossible as it appears to be, because of these chromosomal indifferences, you are also saying there's a chance at best for a MULE and pointing out there are different lampropeltini within Cal kings that vary in the amount of chromosomal indifference.

Focusing on just the gartersnake X gopher snake cross (because that successful hybrid would transfer mtDNA code for stripes to a Cal King, through a gopher X garter & king hybrid, hypothetically speaking) is it more possible with a gopher snake's chromosomal structure?


We've been able to back track through history 6,000 yrs to determine where blue eyes originated from. Now we did this because human history and understanding of humans is far more important to humans than modern snakes are. So Im guessing we probably haven't done the equally extensive research on snake stripes, as have been done on blue eyes... especially if it goes against what we already consider to be fact, from the days of research when we thought blue was incorporated in the color wheel...we now know that is false...there is no blue, only cyan.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/How-Blue ... 2575.shtml

Back before colubrinae split into natricinae and colubridae (assuming that's accurate) on the tree of evolution, it would make sense that there was genetic chromosomal DNA coding for both egg laying and live bearing, together in the same snake, if evolution is a true theory. When the split occurred, egg laying became dominant in one species and live bearing became dominant in the other. However, it's my argument that there must have been a recessive trait or coding for the opposite (eggs or birth) that got buried deep within the endless and overwhelming strands of genetic coding. As Thamnophis and pituophis split once again on the evolutionary tree, that little hidden code got push even farther in the corner to where perhaps it no longer existed in the endless branches of mtDNA combination due to dominant traits naturally "breeding out" the code. (so an overwelming number of snakes may not even carry the recessive possibility) However, just like blue eyes... the recessive trait/code for a compatible match, trickled down all the to gigas and catenifer.


Image20160216_050116-1 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr



Now once that miracle finally happened between those two extraordinary individuals, the miracle stripe mtDNA (like blue eyes) was then established in a gopher snake MULE. The same could possibly be said in regards to a miracle happening between a king snake and garter snake. However, after all those 1000 of years, that protocol offspring would have been so genetically meshed up from the obscure matching of the chromosomes coming together after all that time, that it would be so evident, you would not be able to overlooked the outward visual appearance of the young prodigy. I mean, one might look at the successfully birthed mutant in the same regards to an albino... clearly this MULE variation has something completely different going on in his chromosomes... thanks to his parents. You might even call it bizarre looking. In fact, it might have looked something like this:


Image0 g old 4 watermark by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

Imagebb king by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageMG for Gary by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageMV for gary by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr


...and because the chromosomes matched up successfully. The Prodigy was able to successfully breed with it's own species (possibly with both parent species) and pass down the NEW mtDNA coding for further generations. Just like blue eyes....

Thank you, thank you...

(bows to the crowd)

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Zach_Lim » February 17th, 2016, 7:44 am

From my understanding of biology, I figured that morphs just kind of happen. I seriously doubt that hybridization between two distinct species creates a morph.

Example: You have a pair of kings, they mate and a couple of strange lined/striped/dashed whatever ones hatch out. The abberant hatchlings survive to adult hood due to their pattern/coloration helping them to survive from predation in a marsh/wetland environment. They breed- there you go, a morph in the making.

As theorized by many, many people, you have certain morphs/locality specific morphs from an area that survive due to advantages that the patterning may present. Stripes on garters (typical) help in marsh/wetland areas (where they usually live), as it helps them blend into reeds, etc. A couple of kings and/or gophers produce some striped babies in the area and they flourish (independent of each other, NOT hybrids between the two). They survive because the pattern helps in the wetlands- take the central valley- all of which used to be one huge wetland and look where the striped and/or delta morph gopher and kings are- and they breed. Even when habitat is gone because of human, the genetics are still there. So they breed and produce more.

I don't see hybridization as being the godly reason for new morphs or species. Geographical/genetic isolation can help to create a species/subspecies. Morphs just kind of happen- ask any breeder who produced crazy milk or ball python morphs, etc . No hybrids, just breeding.

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Steve Bledsoe » February 17th, 2016, 8:12 am

I'm no biology scholar, but I agree 100% with Zach's line of thinking. It seems unreasonable to me that kingsnake morphs, for instance, are caused by hybridization. It makes more sense that the different patterns are totally random, and as Darwin observed, the "fittest" survive. The term "fittest" or "most fit" does not necessarily mean the strongest or healthiest individuals, but rather the individuals that fit the best within their particular environments. The ability to avoid predators due to having perfect camouflage is a huge advantage for an individual to be able to survive to adulthood and pass on it's specific traits to the next generation. I know it doesn't sound deeply scientific, but there's a lot to be said for simplicity.

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by hellihooks » February 17th, 2016, 8:46 am

Spot on Zack. addittionally Porter, you theory ignores convergent evolution... a foundation of selective adaptation. Plenty of research has been done regarding 'stripe vs banding' in predator avoidance (which is more visually confusing, in motion) and in certain habitats (like grasslands) stripes seem to win out. No surprise that when a random mutation, like a striped gopher shows up, in habitat that favors it... it will be successful and proliferate.

then you bring in a whole different ball of wax with 'environmental conditions' (brackish waters) as a factor for hybridization. I would suggest that 'environmental conditions' may up the chances for genetic abberrancies to occur... but not a cause for species to cross. for instance... Pisgah Crater is known for producing striped examples of typically patterned snakes (lyres, glossys etc) and i believe that as a black lava crater, higher ambient temps during gestation create more abberrant animals.

I have a theory that color and pattern in many (if not most) snakes is keyed by differring allelles and bilaterally split IE: in rosys you sometimes see dorsal and lateral lines of differing color and pattern, etc etc... my point is though... this could possibly be proven or disproven using current genetic analysis... your hybridization theory however, osensible having happened so far in the past, resists any such investigation. If a theory or hypothesis can not be tested, i'm sorry to say it will forever remain what it is... idle speculation.

and it's petty well known that color and pattern are the least reliable factors when trying to establish famial relationships, say compared to scale counts and structure.

color and pattern are just (often covergent) selective adaptation at work, responding to differing habitat demands. :thumb:

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 17th, 2016, 9:27 am

Zach_Lim wrote:From my understanding of biology, I figured that morphs just kind of happen. I seriously doubt that hybridization between two distinct species creates a morph.

Example: You have a pair of kings, they mate and a couple of strange lined/striped/dashed whatever ones hatch out. The abberant hatchlings survive to adult hood due to their pattern/coloration helping them to survive from predation in a marsh/wetland environment. They breed- there you go, a morph in the making.

As theorized by many, many people, you have certain morphs/locality specific morphs from an area that survive due to advantages that the patterning may present. Stripes on garters (typical) help in marsh/wetland areas (where they usually live), as it helps them blend into reeds, etc. A couple of kings and/or gophers produce some striped babies in the area and they flourish (independent of each other, NOT hybrids between the two). They survive because the pattern helps in the wetlands- take the central valley- all of which used to be one huge wetland and look where the striped and/or delta morph gopher and kings are- and they breed. Even when habitat is gone because of human, the genetics are still there. So they breed and produce more.

I don't see hybridization as being the godly reason for new morphs or species. Geographical/genetic isolation can help to create a species/subspecies. Morphs just kind of happen- ask any breeder who produced crazy milk or ball python morphs, etc . No hybrids, just breeding.
That's a nice recap of what has been clearly described and excepted as a loose ends explanation and SPECULATION of something that has still not been proven scientifically. The only evidence (Based on location of finfs) is that striped kings and gophers are tied to wetlands.

Ya know, you guys act like there aren't marshes in the foothills and lower mountain ranges. I can think of 3 off of the top of my head in the sierras, within kingsnake range, and a ton in the bay area where, you Zach, find all those Santa Cruse green belly striped color morph variation (my opinon). You seem to have a knack for finding kingsnakes, especially the elusive ones ... zonata. You said yourself on your tv show that zonata are super hard to find. Have you evrr found a stripe phase morph in those marshes? Ever read of one being found there? I can think of a bunch of places with reeds just above the wetlands not more than a few miles (east and west of central valley) that have nevrr held stripe phase or have documented records. Even in Roseville and Folsom...so marshy, swamp-like that an invasive watersnake is nearly Imprisoned to it aside from a few who made it down stream and/or into the aqueducts. Why no stripe phase kings or gophers there? It's a solid puzzle piece that has been overlooked and disregarded far too long! There is tall grass everywhere. A stripe phase would have occurred and been historically recorded, at least once, within the higher elivation foothills, mountains, and deserts. NONE were recorded. How is that possible if all kings and gophers carry a trait for stripes? Blues eyes, red hair, or freckles would have popped up at least once...common sense

I think you guys are forgetting the nature of your own theory... that adaptation to an environment, ie stripes, is a based on darwin /natural selection. Tell me this... is a striped gopher snake or king more Vulnerable to predators In a habitat that is not wetlands? We all know how a gartersnake stripe works in regards to mesmerizing its attacker. you go to grab for the stripe , the stripe appears not to move, and then the next second the snake is gone. that mesmerizing effect can happen anywhere in any habitat and grass happens to be something that's in every habitat. saying that only marshlands influence a stripe in snakes is like saying that gartersnakes have stripes because they only occur in marshlands. Stripes are effective in protecting a snake in all environments. Thats why we have terrestrial garter snakes such as mountain garter snakes. even Lateralis use stripes in the desert where there is nearly no water or grass. according to Darwin's theory that the fitess survive. natural selection is what brings forth its well suited pattern in regards to its environment. but what you guys are overlooking is that... THERE ARE NOT STRIPE PHASE HISTORICALLY FOUND ANYWHERE OTHER THAN WETLANDS. Why? because the stinky muddy waters are influencing the smell of the pheromones in the moist spring breeding seasons.

Zach, you've been to a Yolo County survey. what does the stripe phase gopher snake habitat look like? it's all flat ground. you know what happens to that flat ground when the rains come? It all becomes submerged in water. that means that most of the snakes in those flat fields are at least half submerged in water during hibernation... Soaking up muddy stench, absorbing minerals through their skin, and in the springtime when they are beneath ground in that muddy damp earth... They are exchanging pheromones and stink water while soaking them up onto their body with other snake species. 90% of those fields surface become so flooded it looks like you could crop rice fields there. I am truly sorry but, the once thought to be conclusive loose end, unproven theory simply doesn't hold water... it is a mere speculation equal to the Hypothesis I'm suggesting

I mean come on people... Saying that a egg laying and live bearing snake can't hybrid is like saying something so ridiculous as a human being can naturally result in as a hermaphrodite. it sounds really nice to assume it can't happen and it seems to make perfect sense... However the fact remains. after a split in evolutionary tree branches, eventually the strands of DNA which should not be compatible find a way to mesh back together thanks to hidden recessive traits from thousands of years ago. It takes a long long time... but that little hidden code finally meets up with the other little hidden code that completes it between the two parents and then BLAMMO... out pops a hermaphrodite.

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by hellihooks » February 17th, 2016, 9:35 am

Striped gophers have been found, and are now commercially availible from the san diego area. Monklet and I found a partially striped GB gopher in the hi desert... but just took pics and let it go

And if your going to just go by pattern (stripes) how then do you account for all the striped and patternless crotes ?

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 17th, 2016, 9:49 am

Are the coastal rattlers wetland snake? Something I asked about and suggested as posiblity before considering hybrids was possiblity of absorbing minerals through that influence color or trigger a genetuc response that can be passed down through young. Any published info on that? Can absorption influence dna for egg devrlopment and also, is pattern determined within the egg during the snakes development or before the egg is developed?

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 17th, 2016, 10:00 am

Can I see a pic of the Basin you and Monk found? ...very interested

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by daniel » February 17th, 2016, 10:05 am

I mean come on people... Saying that a egg laying and live bearing snake can't hybrid is like saying something so ridiculous as a human being can naturally result in as a hermaphrodite. it sounds really nice to assume it can't happen and it seems to make perfect sense... However the fact remains. after a split in evolutionary tree branches, eventually the strands of DNA which should not be compatible find a way to mesh back together thanks to hidden recessive traits from thousands of years ago. It takes a long long time... but that little hidden code finally meets up with the other little hidden code that completes it between the two parents and then BLAMMO... out pops a hermaphrodite.
Huh?? Is it really?

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 17th, 2016, 10:35 am

daniel wrote:

Huh?? Is it really?
Don't stop there! ...explain!!!! :crazyeyes: :mrgreen:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CFdJza0AbeA

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by hellihooks » February 17th, 2016, 10:51 am

Porter wrote:Are the coastal rattlers wetland snake? Something I asked about and suggested as posiblity before considering hybrids was possiblity of absorbing minerals through that influence color or trigger a genetuc response that can be passed down through young. Any published info on that? Can absorption influence dna for egg devrlopment and also, is pattern determined within the egg during the snakes development or before the egg is developed?
No, no, no and uhhhh, no. :crazyeyes: I've seen mostly striped atrox and Nor Cals... and I think a striped scute from AZ(?) point is... striped phase is just a mutation that pops up in MANY species (see retics) if adaptive in the habitat it occured in... it may be passed down

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by hellihooks » February 17th, 2016, 10:54 am

Porter wrote:Can I see a pic of the Basin you and Monk found? ...very interested
Brad found it, and I don't usually take pics of other people's finds... so that there's no confusion when entering data... :|

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Zach_Lim » February 17th, 2016, 11:11 am

I am lazy to dig through my old biology books from school, so here is the short, wikipedia (god, if my professors in college see that I am referencing wikipedia....) excerpt for causes of hermaphrodites in humans:

Aside from having an ambiguous-looking external genitalia, true hermaphroditism in humans differs from pseudohermaphroditism in that the person's karyotype has both XX and XY chromosome pairs (46XX/46XY, 46XX/47XXY or 45X/XY mosaic) and having both testicular and ovarian tissue. One possible pathophysiologic explanation of this rare phenomenon is a parthenogenetic division of a haploid ovum into two haploid ova. Upon fertilization of the two ova by two sperm cells (one carrying an X and the other carrying a Y chromosome), the two fertilized ova are then fused together resulting in a person having dual genitalial, gonadal (ovotestes) and genetic sex.

Another common cause of hermaphroditism is the crossing over of the SRY from the Y chromosome to the X chromosome during meiosis. The SRY is then activated in only certain areas, causing development of testes in some areas by beginning a series of events starting with the upregulation of SOX9, and in other areas not being active (causing the growth of ovarian tissues). Thus, testicular and ovarian tissues will both be present in the same individual.[22]

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Zach_Lim » February 17th, 2016, 11:25 am

Porter wrote: Ya know, you guys act like there aren't marshes in the foothills and lower mountain ranges. I can think of 3 off of the top of my head in the sierras, within kingsnake range, and a ton in the bay area where, you Zach, find all those Santa Cruse green belly striped color morph variation (my opinon). You seem to have a knack for finding kingsnakes, especially the elusive ones ... zonata. You said yourself on your tv show that zonata are super hard to find. Have you evrr found a stripe phase morph in those marshes? Ever read of one being found there? I can think of a bunch of places with reeds just above the wetlands not more than a few miles (east and west of central valley) that have nevrr held stripe phase or have documented records. Even in Roseville and Folsom...so marshy, swamp-like that an invasive watersnake is nearly Imprisoned to it aside from a few who made it down stream and/or into the aqueducts. Why no stripe phase kings or gophers there? It's a solid puzzle piece that has been overlooked and disregarded far too long! There is tall grass everywhere. A stripe phase would have occurred and been historically recorded, at least once, within the higher elivation foothills, mountains, and deserts. NONE were recorded. How is that possible if all kings and gophers carry a trait for stripes? Blues eyes, red hair, or freckles would have popped up at least once...common sense
Or maybe all patterned snakes have an ability to produce striped offspring, but genetic heredity between them just aren't in the cards (or rather, in the odds/Punnet Square)? As you are going on speculation as well, let us take this example:

We are in the foothill marshes where there are kings. With these kings, one within the population carries the recessive gene for stripes. Let us even say it is heterozygous, so... Ss.

For the sake of time and brevity, here are some potential outcomes:

1. A Het Snake (Ss) breeds with a Normal Snake (SS): You get, let's say a clutch of 4, Ss, Ss, SS, SS. You get two Hets, but all have the phenotype of Normal (dominate S).

Let us factor in predation: hawk eats the hets. Now we are left with two SS Normals. Nothing to show

2. Two hets (Ss) breed: Ss X Ss- We end up with a normal (SS), 2 Hets (Ss) and a striped/abberant (ss)

Cool, now we have one with the phenotype ss (Striped). It dies over winter or a hawk eats it.

Back to square one.

It is not the matter of a person ever recording a striped snake from these areas where they should be around. I am saying that genetically, these snakes should be able to pop up anywhere, it is just that we have natural selection, predation, weather, EVERYTHING in Nature, that can take such genotypes away.

As for striped animals not appearing in marsh areas, sure they can! But they can also occur in areas where there are no marshes too.....UM....in Genes....

Image

Striped Ruthveni produced from Lemeke stock from 1983 from Amelco. Wild type (banded, normal) that produced a striped. Probably were het and absolutely not a hybrid.

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Zach_Lim » February 17th, 2016, 11:35 am

Furthermore, who is to say that a striped mountain king (zonata, pyromelana, knoblochi, ruthveni) will never pop up?

I already put up the picture of a striped Ruthveni (photo credit to Ryan Hoyer).

There has been an Anery Coast Z found before. There are Sierra Z's that transition to black and white as adults- is this because they have getula genes in them? No, it's a recessive gene.

Mitch Mulks would be a great person to have comment on this thread, with all the lab breeding he has done with Z's,

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Zach_Lim » February 17th, 2016, 11:43 am

Monklet's Striped GB Gopher

Image

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by hellihooks » February 17th, 2016, 1:00 pm

I'M SO CONFUSED...
Image
According to Hubbs, this 50/50 actually occurs in one spot, down San Diego way

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by hellihooks » February 17th, 2016, 2:12 pm

Like the 50/50 king, Brad's gopher, and even the 'striped ruthveri' Zack posted... these are not true 'genetic' striped animals, but are rather, specimens whose pattern is so malformed, the illusion of a stripe is formed. like this glossy i found in 09
Image
these are way more common than true 'genetic' striped specimens

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 17th, 2016, 6:15 pm

Zach_Lim wrote:I am lazy to dig through my old biology books from school, so here is the short, wikipedia (god, if my professors in college see that I am referencing wikipedia....) excerpt for causes of hermaphrodites in humans:

Aside from having an ambiguous-looking external genitalia, true hermaphroditism in humans differs from pseudohermaphroditism in that the person's karyotype has both XX and XY chromosome pairs (46XX/46XY, 46XX/47XXY or 45X/XY mosaic) and having both testicular and ovarian tissue. One possible pathophysiologic explanation of this rare phenomenon is a parthenogenetic division of a haploid ovum into two haploid ova. Upon fertilization of the two ova by two sperm cells (one carrying an X and the other carrying a Y chromosome), the two fertilized ova are then fused together resulting in a person having dual genitalial, gonadal (ovotestes) and genetic sex.

Another common cause of hermaphroditism is the crossing over of the SRY from the Y chromosome to the X chromosome during meiosis. The SRY is then activated in only certain areas, causing development of testes in some areas by beginning a series of events starting with the upregulation of SOX9, and in other areas not being active (causing the growth of ovarian tissues). Thus, testicular and ovarian tissues will both be present in the same individual.[22]
Thank you! Finally...wheeew, geesh.
This clearly displays my point (focusing on the dual sperminaztion of the twin ova). That weird and impossible things miraculously happen due to the super unique situation after years of impossibility. When that guy walked in to the doc office and said, "Doc, you're never gonna believe this... you'd better come see for yourself" there jaws dropped as if the were looking at bigfoot himself :shock: :shock: "goT damn... an egg layn' garder snake" :lol:

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 17th, 2016, 6:29 pm

Zach_Lim wrote:
Porter wrote: Ya know, you guys act like there aren't marshes in the foothills and lower mountain ranges. I can think of 3 off of the top of my head in the sierras, within kingsnake range, and a ton in the bay area where, you Zach, find all those Santa Cruse green belly striped color morph variation (my opinon). You seem to have a knack for finding kingsnakes, especially the elusive ones ... zonata. You said yourself on your tv show that zonata are super hard to find. Have you evrr found a stripe phase morph in those marshes? Ever read of one being found there? I can think of a bunch of places with reeds just above the wetlands not more than a few miles (east and west of central valley) that have nevrr held stripe phase or have documented records. Even in Roseville and Folsom...so marshy, swamp-like that an invasive watersnake is nearly Imprisoned to it aside from a few who made it down stream and/or into the aqueducts. Why no stripe phase kings or gophers there? It's a solid puzzle piece that has been overlooked and disregarded far too long! There is tall grass everywhere. A stripe phase would have occurred and been historically recorded, at least once, within the higher elivation foothills, mountains, and deserts. NONE were recorded. How is that possible if all kings and gophers carry a trait for stripes? Blues eyes, red hair, or freckles would have popped up at least once...common sense
Or maybe all patterned snakes have an ability to produce striped offspring, but genetic heredity between them just aren't in the cards (or rather, in the odds/Punnet Square)? As you are going on speculation as well, let us take this example:

We are in the foothill marshes where there are kings. With these kings, one within the population carries the recessive gene for stripes. Let us even say it is heterozygous, so... Ss.

For the sake of time and brevity, here are some potential outcomes:

1. A Het Snake (Ss) breeds with a Normal Snake (SS): You get, let's say a clutch of 4, Ss, Ss, SS, SS. You get two Hets, but all have the phenotype of Normal (dominate S).

Let us factor in predation: hawk eats the hets. Now we are left with two SS Normals. Nothing to show

2. Two hets (Ss) breed: Ss X Ss- We end up with a normal (SS), 2 Hets (Ss) and a striped/abberant (ss)

Cool, now we have one with the phenotype ss (Striped). It dies over winter or a hawk eats it.

Back to square one.

It is not the matter of a person ever recording a striped snake from these areas where they should be around. I am saying that genetically, these snakes should be able to pop up anywhere, it is just that we have natural selection, predation, weather, EVERYTHING in Nature, that can take such genotypes away.

As for striped animals not appearing in marsh areas, sure they can! But they can also occur in areas where there are no marshes too.....UM....in Genes....

Image

Striped Ruthveni produced from Lemeke stock from 1983 from Amelco. Wild type (banded, normal) that produced a striped. Probably were het and absolutely not a hybrid.
That snake was produced from a hybrid parent that was never thought of to be a hybrid. End of story. Refer to my cal king with zonata banding Yolo county find for more info...

With all due respect to why everyone thinks stripe phase happen ( ie, better camouflage there from predators first and foremost, from above looking downward on to the morph pattern)... and all due respect to the ability of a hawk's hunting skills ( when they first flood the Yolo and Sutter crop fields you can sit and count a hundred easily without moving your parked car. They are as abundant as migrating canada geese. Feeding off of the rodents being flushed out. Just to give an idea of how many hawks soar these open fields) the fact is...the point your trying to make actually contradicts why the stripe phase happen according to your theory.

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 17th, 2016, 6:31 pm

Zach_Lim wrote:Furthermore, who is to say that a striped mountain king (zonata, pyromelana, knoblochi, ruthveni) will never pop up?

I already put up the picture of a striped Ruthveni (photo credit to Ryan Hoyer).

There has been an Anery Coast Z found before. There are Sierra Z's that transition to black and white as adults- is this because they have getula genes in them? No, it's a recessive gene.

Mitch Mulks would be a great person to have comment on this thread, with all the lab breeding he has done with Z's,
Correct! They simply don't have the genetic combination the displays red pigment. Pattern vs color. Like I said, two diffrrent ballparks

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Zach_Lim » February 17th, 2016, 6:46 pm

Porter wrote:
Zach_Lim wrote:
Porter wrote: Ya know, you guys act like there aren't marshes in the foothills and lower mountain ranges. I can think of 3 off of the top of my head in the sierras, within kingsnake range, and a ton in the bay area where, you Zach, find all those Santa Cruse green belly striped color morph variation (my opinon). You seem to have a knack for finding kingsnakes, especially the elusive ones ... zonata. You said yourself on your tv show that zonata are super hard to find. Have you evrr found a stripe phase morph in those marshes? Ever read of one being found there? I can think of a bunch of places with reeds just above the wetlands not more than a few miles (east and west of central valley) that have nevrr held stripe phase or have documented records. Even in Roseville and Folsom...so marshy, swamp-like that an invasive watersnake is nearly Imprisoned to it aside from a few who made it down stream and/or into the aqueducts. Why no stripe phase kings or gophers there? It's a solid puzzle piece that has been overlooked and disregarded far too long! There is tall grass everywhere. A stripe phase would have occurred and been historically recorded, at least once, within the higher elivation foothills, mountains, and deserts. NONE were recorded. How is that possible if all kings and gophers carry a trait for stripes? Blues eyes, red hair, or freckles would have popped up at least once...common sense
Or maybe all patterned snakes have an ability to produce striped offspring, but genetic heredity between them just aren't in the cards (or rather, in the odds/Punnet Square)? As you are going on speculation as well, let us take this example:

We are in the foothill marshes where there are kings. With these kings, one within the population carries the recessive gene for stripes. Let us even say it is heterozygous, so... Ss.

For the sake of time and brevity, here are some potential outcomes:

1. A Het Snake (Ss) breeds with a Normal Snake (SS): You get, let's say a clutch of 4, Ss, Ss, SS, SS. You get two Hets, but all have the phenotype of Normal (dominate S).

Let us factor in predation: hawk eats the hets. Now we are left with two SS Normals. Nothing to show

2. Two hets (Ss) breed: Ss X Ss- We end up with a normal (SS), 2 Hets (Ss) and a striped/abberant (ss)

Cool, now we have one with the phenotype ss (Striped). It dies over winter or a hawk eats it.

Back to square one.

It is not the matter of a person ever recording a striped snake from these areas where they should be around. I am saying that genetically, these snakes should be able to pop up anywhere, it is just that we have natural selection, predation, weather, EVERYTHING in Nature, that can take such genotypes away.

As for striped animals not appearing in marsh areas, sure they can! But they can also occur in areas where there are no marshes too.....UM....in Genes....

Image

Striped Ruthveni produced from Lemeke stock from 1983 from Amelco. Wild type (banded, normal) that produced a striped. Probably were het and absolutely not a hybrid.
That snake was produced from a hybrid parent that was never thought of to be a hybrid. End of story. Refer to my cal king with zonata banding Yolo county find for more info...

With all due respect to why everyone thinks stripe phase happen ( ie, better camouflage there from predators first and foremost, from above looking downward on to the morph pattern)... and all due respect to the ability of a hawk's hunting skills ( when they first flood the Yolo and Sutter crop fields you can sit and count a hundred easily without moving your parked car. They are as abundant as migrating canada geese. Feeding off of the rodents being flushed out. Just to give an idea of how many hawks soar these open fields) the fact is...the point your trying to make actually contradicts why the stripe phase happen according to your theory.

A hybrid parent? The parent was a wild type, banded L.ruthveni.

Are you saying that a wild type animal that carriers genes for potential striped animals, are hybrids?

That would mean that normal, wild type gopher snakes that produce striped gopher snakes are hybrids....

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 17th, 2016, 7:06 pm

Zach_Lim wrote:Monklet's Striped GB Gopher

Image
That is definitely one of the prettiest snakes I've ever seen :thumb: I do believe there are gartersnake were the little guy was found... juss sayn'

Here's another found near flowing desert water and stored ground water...


ImageGreat Basin Gopher Snake by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageGreat Basin Gopher Snake by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageGreat Basin Gopher Snake by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr


Although, that monk X hook gopher is by far AMAZING!! It's still not the prettiest GB I've seen. I actually found a juvi DOR that look nearly identical to this (chain-link neck aberrant pattern) I returned to the same area at a slightly lower elevation (down hill from the DOR find and found this adult. To give insight of how much muddy ground water is present in this area, there is a population of desert salamander present at this location. And knowing how important water is to snakes in a dessert (ie, a striped whipsnake coiled in a rain storm of heavy and large drops, head toward the sky, mouth open, rain harvesting at close to 60¤ or lower in temps...) I would have to assume the possibility of a gartersnake hibernating with a GB gopher while laying in muddy ground water very well may have resulted on a miracle...

Thank you Zach for posting that GB :beer: awesome stuff man :) :thumb:

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Re: Hybrid Evolving Morphological Theory

Post by Porter » February 17th, 2016, 7:27 pm

Zach_Lim wrote:

A hybrid parent? The parent was a wild type, banded L.ruthveni.

Are you saying that a wild type animal that carriers genes for potential striped animals, are hybrids?

That would mean that normal, wild type gopher snakes that produce striped gopher snakes are hybrids....
Before I even begin to respond to this one, where was the wildcaught found.


Furthermore, for perspective on how things can be overlooked... this kingsnake carrying zonata mtDNA would be easily overlooked as a normally cal because of the small amount that is displayed... not to mention, that particular zonata was found during a time when they wouldn't have even considered it was a hybrid. Like the black-belly zonata that Hooks and Hinds found. A black-belly is a result of mesh meshy meshed gartersnake mtDNA, (probably passed down from a gopher but not necessary had to be). That black belly zonata mates a normal zonata....then passes that garter stripe mtDNA down afew generation of normal looking zonata hybrids (due to dominant traits) and then ....BLAMMO out popps the striped phase garterX king (possibly X gopher)



Heres a zonata X getula natural hybrid that can easily be disregarded for a normal cal king


ImageCalifornia Kingsnake by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

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