First snake of the year

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Porter
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First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 12th, 2016, 6:40 pm

Found this little speckled kingsnake today. Nice little find for a first serpent sighting. Not a lifer, but first baby speck I've found. Pretty cool. Anyone got some first finds to add...?

Image20160212_163008 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

Image20160212_163233-1 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

Image20160212_163221-1 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

Image20160212_163216-1 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

Image20160212_165406 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

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regalringneck
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Re: First snake of the year

Post by regalringneck » February 14th, 2016, 6:18 pm

... belly nyce, looks pure getulus, myne was a nytesnake yesterday ... : }

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 15th, 2016, 2:17 am

Nice! :thumb: if I ever found a nightsnake as first snake of the year (anytime of the year!) anywhere in the Sacramento area stretching as far to Roseville and Folsom.. I'd shtabricka! :lol: I haven't seen one here in more than 20 years. I like those viper-cat eyed little buggers. Cool snakes. :beer: Let me see some pics!! :)

Pure getulus...? :? :roll: I dunno... that light coloration centering the dark scales seems to appear as a pattern on both gopher snakes and GIGAS... and only appears on these speckled kingsnakes roaming the delta. No specks in the dry lands :) Easy to see speckled patterning DNA display (like a green eyed redhead with freckles) on the beautiful gopher and giant garter eating a HYBRID SUNFISH below ;) 8-)



ImagePacific Gopher Snake by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageGiant Gartersnake eating a sunfish by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

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Porter
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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 15th, 2016, 2:34 am

Also, if you look closely at the speckled kingsnakes pattern... It runs full length of the snake's body just like the Gopher snake and the giant garter snake with a few little discrepancies as the pattern continues. the speckles do appear on the light bands of the king snake they appear as a richer yellow cream on top of a light faded cream scale. Very minut! ... But the pattern is there and can be seen if you zoom into the photo through the Flickr page.

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by RobertH » February 15th, 2016, 1:26 pm

Porter, its actually a longnose snake! just kidding. Its an interesting find, and a great first snake of the year :thumb: Not quite my first snake of the year but, so far the best, was this rosy I flipped myself.
ImageCoastal Rosy Boa (Lichanura trivirgata roseofusca) by NicholasHess, on Flickr
Heres to a great 2016 :beer:
Nicholas

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Porter
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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 15th, 2016, 2:57 pm

Nice! :thumb: I've only seen two and found only one myself. It's amazing how well they blend in to the grainy asphalt of some of those SoCal roads. My lifer was parallel to the road, off on the side...blendt' in like a Speckled buzztail on granite. Cool snakes! Good shot as well :beer:

Longnose: valley snake of former wetlands...extending into the foothills where zonata were once found... zonata X pituophis X getula (maybe...maybe just zonata X pituouphis...look at the over all physical construction and smoothness of the snake...zonata DNA...speckles from pituophis) that's one hellava well adapted mutt! ;)

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Porter
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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 15th, 2016, 3:19 pm

Also... the reason I think getula must be involved in the DNA combination is because you must be getting an overwhelming consistence of banding-pattern DNA, from both getula and zonata combined. This zipper like code must have locked so tightly that it has become so dominant that it has influenced the rise of a new species with little to no chance of morphism within the populations where they coexist with both getula and pituophis in greater numbers. However, the desert is a different story because it seems that because of isolation provoking inbred populations, where the longnose have bred out enough to successfully produce young lacking red color pigment, the longnose more resemble the getula ...due to high concentration of getula DNA within those particular individuals.

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Steve Bledsoe » February 15th, 2016, 3:42 pm

I would say that your "speckled" kingsnake is "pure getula" (if there is such a thing anymore). Banded, striped, spotted, speckled, scrambled egg, zipper bands, highway stripes, dotted stripes, you name it. Cal Kings have it all. It doesn't matter if you call them getula or californiae, nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to west coast common kings.

Here's a yearling Newporter I found yesterday. It's the 3rd king of the year for me so far here in Orange County. Sure hope we get more rain.
Image

Image

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by hellihooks » February 15th, 2016, 6:47 pm

RobertH wrote:Porter, its actually a longnose snake! just kidding. Its an interesting find, and a great first snake of the year :thumb: Not quite my first snake of the year but, so far the best, was this rosy I flipped myself.
ImageCoastal Rosy Boa (Lichanura trivirgata roseofusca) by NicholasHess, on Flickr
Heres to a great 2016 :beer:
Nicholas
very nice Nick... :D I remember when you and your dad saw your first wild rosy, that your dad flipped... :)
Image

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 15th, 2016, 7:26 pm

Awesome find Steve :thumb: there's something about those newporters that hit home with a refreshing sense of a new start. Like the sweet smell of spring breeze.... Maybe it's just got a nice ring to it :mrgreen: :lol: cool looking individual :beer:

Yes, with revisions such as masticophis =》coluber... hypsiglena chlorophaea =》deserticola....and even actinemys marmorata =》pallida and then back to =》marmorata ( they did or do plan to change it back, right?) it's hard to know what to expect when new discovery's come to light. I believe the cal king aberrant morphs to be all there own... all call king (for the most part with the exception of hybrid possibilities. Iefinately think the specks on my snake were handed down by two parent cal kings)
like longnose, have become their own species, but how they got there is still in the grey of speculation (or is it? Do we have any diagram trees showing the pattern of evolution in colubridae?)... and sadly, to assume that cal king stripes were not influenced by a gartersnake DNA pattern sequence, is just as much speculation as to assume it is.

I do have a couple questions about your find Steve that only require vague answers. Nothing that will give away specific location...

1) what species/subspecies of gartersnake are found within the same biome/locale as the newporter? (Within range of influence)

2) Are stripe phase gopher snake known to be found there? (within range of influence)

3) Are longnose found there?

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Zach_Lim » February 15th, 2016, 10:27 pm

Nicholas- your rosy is stunning and so is your photo. I love the pose and lighting.

Porter- are you saying that you believe many snakes look similar to other snakes or have patterns and or coloration that are akin to one or more other snakes are all past hybrids? Really?

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 15th, 2016, 11:05 pm

Nope lol I'm saying (exploring the idea) that the aberrant phases in cal kings and gopher snakes may very well have been influence by hybrination at one time due to reason stated in the other post on this subject (mainly stinky water and possible salt/brackish influence that throws off correct partner choosing. That speckles may have come into the mix from a gopher snake and stripes from a garter. That a longnose however may be the result of hybrids creating a new species. The visual evidence is there. Just like a person with green eyes, red hair, and freckles visually displays the traits that the parents carried.

I'm just focusing on one area right now... The Central Valley. which could be considered the bottom of a funnel trap of genetic aberrancy and a higher battleground opportunity for unique hybrids to form and pass down genes due to high density overlapping of compatible colubrids within a habitat rich of scent masking conditions.

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 16th, 2016, 12:44 am


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Kelly Mc
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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Kelly Mc » February 16th, 2016, 10:52 am

ok I followed your rainbow to this post and my comment is mainly I guess about how you refer to gopher snakes as Speckled - and liken it to the lampro speckling.

I don't see it personally, I see the gopher's pattern as classic outline disruptive. Blotched, broken, but not speckled to me.

Correct me if I am misinterpreting that.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Kelly Mc » February 16th, 2016, 11:16 am

Maybe its just a difference in visual interpretation but in lampro speckling I see the light value as dominant and in gophers the dark values. I dunno but I don't see it as speckling in the pit.

Almost all pattern has outline disruptive potential including speckling, speckling is a good one - I just don't see it with the same distinction you see it.

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Steve Bledsoe » February 16th, 2016, 11:18 am

Porter wrote: I do have a couple questions about your find Steve that only require vague answers. Nothing that will give away specific location...

1) what species/subspecies of gartersnake are found within the same biome/locale as the newporter? (Within range of influence)

2) Are stripe phase gopher snake known to be found there? (within range of influence)

3) Are longnose found there?
Porter - To answer your questions ....

1) Thamnophis hammondi is the only species of gartersnake currently found in the area where I found this kingsnake. T. sirtalis is native to our area, but they are restricted to only a few small isolated populations these days that are not near this location. I assume that when California was a much wetter place (long before Al Gore's time and the invention of man made global warming), sirtalis was possibly more common down here.

2) I have yet to find what I would consider to be a "striped gopher snake" in Orange County. We find them with some partial striping at the beginning of the dorsal pattern near the head, but nothing that would immediately strike one's eye as a striped snake.

) Rhinocheilus are a local species, but extremely uncommon in the coastal region where I find these Newporter Kings. I know of only one person who has seen one inside of 6 miles of this site within the past 25 years, and there are no records of them in our HERP database from anywhere in Orange County. Then again, long-nosed snakes may have been a much more common species here in the past.

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Steve Bledsoe » February 16th, 2016, 11:41 am

Something else to think about when we find unusual patterns on some of our local native snakes.....

The reptile pet trade is huge, and as we all know, sometimes when junior gets tired of his turtle or snake, it's released into the wild. I know of several cases here in Orange County where people I know have found corn snakes, milk snakes, great plains ratsnakes, and other common pet trade species. People here locally have shown me photos of high-yellow designer Cal Kings, and photos of splendida kings found in our local parks very near my home.

Couldn't it be possible that the speckled pattern on the kingsnake you found (Porter) came from the influence of a released holbrooki or splendida kingsnake? Or maybe it could have come from a released San Diego high-spot striped kingsnake? Influence from the same species makes more sense to me than influence from hybridization with a non-similar species. Just sayin'.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Kelly Mc » February 16th, 2016, 12:09 pm

Steve Bledsoe wrote:Something else to think about when we find unusual patterns on some of our local native snakes.....

The reptile pet trade is huge, and as we all know, sometimes when junior gets tired of his turtle or snake, it's released into the wild. I know of several cases here in Orange County where people I know have found corn snakes, milk snakes, great plains ratsnakes, and other common pet trade species. People here locally have shown me photos of high-yellow designer Cal Kings, and photos of splendida kings found in our local parks very near my home.

Couldn't it be possible that the speckled pattern on the kingsnake you found (Porter) came from the influence of a released holbrooki or splendida kingsnake? Or maybe it could have come from a released San Diego high-spot striped kingsnake? Influence from the same species makes more sense to me than influence from hybridization with a non-similar species. Just sayin'.
Steve is Spot On. And if you are speculating Steve, (speck-ulating hee) you are more correct, except that it is not only children but adults who decide to become Breeders - encouraged and incited by the internet. They suddenly lose interest or get in over their head due to an illness in their group or pair, or other unforeseen expenses. I know of these situations as fact - and even of a teacher making an event out of releasing herps.

I have taken in herps to prevent their release in park areas in my locality. and had people proudly even, tell me of their releases of herps into the environment, as well as non native snakes found, most often on an aimless crawl out in the open.

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Steve Bledsoe » February 16th, 2016, 12:41 pm

Yes - exactly Kelly.
And when you tell people that it's a very bad idea to release invasives into the local habitat, their first reaction is that you're implying that the released animal won't survive, when the problem is that it might surely survive!

I also get a little miffed when I hear people preach that if you release a snake or lizard into a habitat more than about a mile from where you caught it, it will not survive. In view of all of the invasive species that inhabit all corners of the globe, that belief is obviously false.

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 16th, 2016, 1:10 pm

Kelly Mc wrote:ok I followed your rainbow to this post and my comment is mainly I guess about how you refer to gopher snakes as Speckled - and liken it to the lampro speckling.

I don't see it personally, I see the gopher's pattern as classic outline disruptive. Blotched, broken, but not speckled to me.

Correct me if I am misinterpreting that.
It's hard to see unless you go to the flickr page and zoom in on the photo. I went ahead and cropped a section of the two to show the genetic code for speckling...not color!...the mtDNA is only influencing the speckle pattern! It is much more uniform on these because they seem to be the ones passing down the speckling mtDNA. That's the visual evidence equal to blue eys, red hair, and fleckles (as an example of how traits are passed from parents).

Image6451458951_6026580f2e_o-1-1 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

Image9080595983_5a2b844cfc_o-1 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 16th, 2016, 1:14 pm

Steve, I have wondered about that... however, I'm focusing on whether or not it can happen between the natives first. Thinking that something introduced caused it will only sidetrack the notion at this point. The question is... Is it possible naturally without human interaction?

Image20160216_050116-1 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 16th, 2016, 1:19 pm

PLEASE REFER TO THIS LINK FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION RELATING TO THIS TOPIC

PLEASE REFER TO THIS LINK FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION RELATING TO THIS TOPIC

PLEASE REFER TO THIS LINK FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION RELATING TO THIS TOPIC

Please respond on the other post with your thoughts on this subject rather than this post. That is the more appropiate place and will prevent the same questions asked twice. Thanks!! :) ...and thank you both for the imput. This is the kind of debate this forum needs :beer: here's the link: http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =6&t=23053

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Kelly Mc
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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Kelly Mc » February 16th, 2016, 1:23 pm

Porter I find your attention to detail and the limberness of your scope compelling.

There was something you said on the other thread you posted about Central Valley being a funnel of factors (paraphrasing) that was interesting.

So with a warm palm to palm grasp of 'in the zone' debate, to me, not having studied coloration, pattern, or genetics as much as I have wanted to - but just observationally speaking, contrasting pigment following along the keel of a keeled snake or lizard I see as a different format than the Dab or marginated scalloping of a Speckled scale pattern..

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Kelly Mc » February 16th, 2016, 1:38 pm

What of the tropics - with more biodiversity and richer overlap of environmental factor - would you propose the same theory for snakes in those circumstances?

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 16th, 2016, 1:56 pm

Imagesg3 by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

The stripe coding results in a meshed (fish net) sequence because of the years of separation between Thamnophis and Pituophis. As you can see... the meshed code gives the dorsal, lateral (sides), and even in between stripe coding...it doesn't come out as a perfect yellow dorsal stripe because there are millions of dominant and recessive traits within the messed fish net of hybrid genetic coding, that are combating for the final result. I would have to assume the same differences, even minute, would apply to the mesh of speckling DNA coding coding.

Please respond to the other post Kelly! Thank you

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Kelly Mc
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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Kelly Mc » February 16th, 2016, 2:03 pm

sorry I realized you wanted it on the other post after the fact

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 16th, 2016, 2:09 pm

No worries Kelly :-) also, take a look at Nick's snake in this post. I don't know what the species name is but I can tell you that by just looking at the brackish meshed pattern of the boa... That it is an intergrade. the pure rosy Boas are more well-defined stripes.... I would have to assume that the same thing would happen in a hybrid situation. Except there should be far more variability within a hybrid situation because of obvious reasons

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by yoloherper » February 16th, 2016, 5:51 pm

Continuing with the trend of early season getula, this juvenile pair found together in Santa Cruz County were my first snakes back in January. Always nice when scouting a new potential spot turns into lucking onto one (or two) of your biggest targets of the year.
-Elliot
ImageDSC_5674 by mangoman57, on Flickr

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 16th, 2016, 8:22 pm

Nice flip! :thumb: I can't say a recall ever flipping two juvie kings together. Closest to that would have to be flipping two juvies, one brown cream, one black white, same pile of scrap wood about 10 feet apart. That was a cool day! I was pretty young and I think it was the first time I had seen the lighter brown cream variation. I like how you have a belly and dorsal contrast in the shot. Cool stuff :beer:

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by daniel » February 16th, 2016, 8:59 pm

take a look at Nick's snake in this post. I don't know what the species name is but I can tell you that by just looking at the brackish meshed pattern of the boa... That it is an intergrade. the pure rosy Boas are more well-defined stripes.... I would have to assume that the same thing would happen in a hybrid situation.
Please correct me if I'm wrong Nicholas, but I believe that is just a normal roseofusca, at least that's what it looks like. Not an intergrade (if you still recognize the old taxonomic designations).

Edited to add:

Are you possibly thinking of the gracia subspecies (again, if you still recognize the old taxonomic designations) when you refer to the "pure rosy boas," Porter?

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by hellihooks » February 17th, 2016, 8:57 am

o agree with Danial that Nicholas's boa is pure (and classic) coastal (rosafucia) as opposed to desert rosys (gracia) which have straight, rather than diffuse lines

An intergrade boa will have slightly jagged lines, with or without secondary striping.

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 17th, 2016, 9:55 am

Ill take your word for it. I no nothing about rosys and have no interest in them. Someone told me that the brackish pattern meant it was an intergrade. I was basing my statement off of that. However, with all yhe rebuttal of classification, Maybe we'll find out 20 yrs from now that those boas are a species derived from hybrids just like longnose... patience is NOT a virtue :lol:

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by hellihooks » February 17th, 2016, 10:58 am

Porter wrote:Ill take your word for it. I no nothing about rosys and have no interest in them.
rosys rule. i unfriend you... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by yoloherper » February 17th, 2016, 11:14 am

Maybe we'll find out 20 yrs from now that those boas are a species derived from hybrids just like longnose
Remind us again how rhino's evolved in your theory?

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Zach_Lim » February 17th, 2016, 11:40 am

Excellent kings, Elliot! Congrats on the find!

Also, this is the thread of hybrids in question:

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =6&t=23053

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Re: First snake of the year

Post by Porter » February 17th, 2016, 5:31 pm

Hooks, we were never friends :lol: ...wait, what? "rosys mule???" Ok, if you say so ;) :)

Thanks Zach :beer: I re-friend you :lol:

Elliot, I'm not going to explain again what you already know in your heart to be true. This is getting redundant. Especially, considering your avitar photo. like the San Fran Gartersnake, it displays the soon new to be species : the Sacramento Gopher snake. The times they are a chaaaa-a-yay-a-yay-ngeeeennn'

If everyone would be as much energy into proving I 'm right instead of proving I'm wrong, we'd have this all figured out by now :lol:

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