Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

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Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by klawnskale » May 7th, 2016, 7:40 am

I am no expert regarding the actual range of Crotalus stephensi and I have read tidbits regarding its actual range and how far south they can be found in California. A college class is on a herping trip in the Mojave National Preserve and found this alleged stephensi on the grounds of Zzyzx . Has this species been found South of I-15 and that far west from the Colorado River? I know this photo doesn't show much of the snake, but what do you think? Actual stephensi? or mitchelli?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Jeremy Wright » May 7th, 2016, 8:47 am

Looking at the range maps it's definitely not too far off of a possibility. I know Panamints have been found not far from there. Cool snake though for sure.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Jeremy Wright » May 7th, 2016, 8:47 am

I'm no expert though so I hope someone more knowledgeable helps haha.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by craigb » May 7th, 2016, 9:05 am

I have seen C. mitchelli on Kelbaker Rd. and in the Granite Mtns preserve area, as well as at Mitchell Caverns. But there should be people more knowledgeable than I that can chime in. I am sure that this is not the first one caught there. There should be records available. Study has been going on there for decades. Dr. Rulon Clark from San Diego State was there a few years ago.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by klawnskale » May 7th, 2016, 9:09 am

craigb wrote:I have seen C. mitchelli on Kelbaker Rd. and in the Granite Mtns preserve area, as well as at Mitchell Caverns. But there should be people more knowledgeable than I that can chime in. I am sure that this is not the first one caught there. There should be records available. Study has been going on there for decades. Dr. Rulon Clark from San Diego State was there a few years ago.
Hi Craig:
Thanks for your input. It is pretty common knowledge that mitchelli are found at the MNP; this class claims it is a stephensi and I have some doubts. I believe I read a report that they are found in the Kingstons; but that range is north of the I-15 and closer to the California/Nevada border.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by nightdriver » May 7th, 2016, 9:21 am

I couldn't really see the snake well...or I didn't see the right picture.... The end of the tail is "usually" one of the best things to look at.

Regardless, they have been found below the 15, and possibly even below the 40 around Barstow. As far as West goes, they make it FAR more west than that area.

-nightdriver

I am not an expert :)

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by SurfinHerp » May 7th, 2016, 10:02 am

Here is what Gary Nafis has on his excellent site: http://www.californiaherps.com ...

Panamint Rattlesnake Geographical Range
Found in central eastern California, from approximately the Mojave River north along the east side of the Sierras into Nevada.

"Klauber (1930, 1936) suggested that C. m. stephensi formed a zone of intergradation with C. m. pyrrhus in the Mohave Desert (i.e., the Barstow–Ivanpah–Hoover Dam line). His primary evidence was the presence of an incomplete separation of the prenasal and rostral scales in some individuals he examined from this region. This condition, however, occurs infrequently throughout the distribution of C. mitchellii (Klauber, 1936, 1949, 1963), and hence its utility as a robust morphological indicator of intergradation between C. m. stephensi and C. m. pyhrrus is unresolved."


Zzyzx is right along the Barstow-Ivanpah-Hoover Dam line (perhaps a bit S. of it). Therefore the snake in the photo could be a speckled, a Panamint, or perhaps an intergrade. To me it looks like a Panamint or intergrade.


Jeff

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by klawnskale » May 7th, 2016, 10:10 am

Thanks, Jeff. Yeah, I read that range description in CalHerps. The range of this species appears to be somewhat fragmented in its Southern end. I have only read small anecdotes of ID validation in that area of San Bernardino County: all the way south to Newberry Springs. It would be cool if a researcher did a study on the actual southern range of this species to make the data more conclusive; but fragmentation within mitchelli habitat seems to be the conclusion so far. I wonder if elevation is a determinant.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Jimi » May 7th, 2016, 11:37 am

Hi Hanna,

You will be sorely challenged with that picture and no others. Besides reading the 2007 Douglas et al paper that suggested the species split, I would ask Bob McKeever. He's the guy with the most interest in the distinction between pyrrhus and stephensi on the FHF (and he has a set of about 4 phenotypic characters he uses to try & distinguish them). Not sure how much Bob checks in here any more. Steve Stocking is becoming his protege or acolyte or some such - you know Steve, and he's here a fair bit.

Incidentally Steve has this last month photo'd an individual just north of Vegas that's firmly intermediate in the characters Bob uses (same as Douglas, and maybe another or two) - it's kind of vexing. Specimens from the far south of the putative contact zone could be similar. A set of photos targeting the ~4 characters (on face & tail) would be interesting - tell your contacts to shoot for that next time?

FWIW "the look" is to me much more stephensi. FWIW...

Good luck!

Jimi

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by klawnskale » May 7th, 2016, 12:53 pm

Thanks, Jimi for the further analysis. I do not know this group well and what criteria they based their identification of the snake in question. It would be helpful if they had good photos of the tail and ocular and rostral scales,but alas, I am not that well acquainted with the bunch. Saw the photo via another Facebook page of a friend. It would be cool if it were stephensi because they are not frequently if at all(?) at that location. Perhaps Zzyzx may have some historical documentation in their archives of previously found specimens at their site. I may contact them. Finding a gila monster in the MNP does not have nowhere near the same ID challenges as it does with the similarities between stephensi and pyrrhus.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by mattg » May 7th, 2016, 1:46 pm

it looks like a panamint to me

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by hellihooks » May 7th, 2016, 5:04 pm

looks mint to me as well (at a glance)... by no means the southern extent (try the Calicos) and actually right along the eastern (established) range (the Barstow–Ivanpah–Hoover Dam line)

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by mfb » May 8th, 2016, 10:56 am

Hi Hanna, That looks like Emily Taylor's herp class from the link. If you have not done so already, I'd encourage you to reach out to Emily directly about the snake. She's been doing work with herps, including rattlesnakes, since the 90s. Maybe she can give you more photos / info on the ID. http://perl.calpoly.edu/people/dr-emily-taylor

Best, Mike

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by rpecora » May 8th, 2016, 11:28 am

mitchelli in my guess. Nobody could say with any certainty with those pics. I've seen stephensi in the Kingstons in S.B. County, but that is well towards the northern border of the county. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen a speck south of the 15 and north of the 40 east of Barstow. They've all been Green's.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Robert Hansen » May 8th, 2016, 5:30 pm

That is a Panamint, based on color of tail rings. The body pattern also says stephensi, and that snake looks typical for southern stephensi pops.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by rpecora » May 8th, 2016, 10:01 pm

It does appear that the band colors are the same to the end best I can tell, so I'll concede on that.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by s_stocking » May 9th, 2016, 1:00 pm

Jimi,

I appreciate the flattering comments, but acolyte or protégé implies both a level of expertise that I lack, and a level of formality between Bob, myself, and the rest of us Vegas herpers that does not exist....we're just a bunch of folks that love to hit the desert and find what's out there.....

Hanna,

I echo Jimi, there's too little in the picture I see to make any definitive pronouncement one way or another. I also echo your post title, I too would like to hear an expert's opinion....but lacking that, I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night :), so here goes:

1) The paragraph from the californiaherps.com website is lifted verbatim from Douglas et al's, 2007 paper. Despite what this says, Douglas et al also state several times that they believe that the row of small scales separating the pre-nasals from the rostral is 1 of 4 "sufficiently robust" morphological differences to separate C. m. pyrrhus from C. m. stephensi. Their DNA analysis determined that there is a "5.2-6.7% sequence divergence between C. m. Pyrrhus and C. m. stephensi." I'm no geneticist but I believe that's a lot, given the often recited divergence between humans and chimps of about 2% for comparison. Because of this divergence, plus a unique genetic marker found in all their stephensi specimens but none of their mitchelli pyrrhus specimens, they believe there is no gene flow between stephensi and Pyrrhus.

2) The 4 morphological traits used to distinguish C. m. stephensi from all other C. mitchelli subspecies that Klauber used, and that Douglas et al also reviewed to ID species-level differences are:
"(a) the absence of inter-nasal scales
(b) the presence of prominently ridged and/or creased supra-ocular scales
(c) ground color of the tail is congruent with the ground color of the body
(d) black tail bands restricted to the distal 15% of the tail"

There are good descriptions of the first 2 in Stebbins field guide (plate 51). Bob McKeever also utilizes a couple of other traits, including (e) Ground color along the vertebral line, in between the dorsal blotches, is lighter than the lateral ground color, and (f) the extent of dark coloration at the tail tip and the dark coloration of the basal rattle segment. Also Bob characterizes stephensi supra-oculars as "sutured" i.e. with a single long deep furrow or fold across the length of the supra-ocular scale. I'm sure Bob has a reference for these other morphological traits, I just haven't had a chance to sit down and pick his brain yet. Stebbins characterizes the supra-oculars as pitted, creased, furrowed, or outer edges irregular. The other distinction is that Pyrrhus typically has a "speckling" in the ground color that merges into the dorsal blotches. Stephensi is often characterized as "sharper", however there appears to be a great deal of individual and geographic variation in this trait. And also there is the "blue-grey" face masked that is often used to ID stephensi. Neither Douglas et al, nor Stebbins refer to it, but it appears to be relatively common on stephensi i've observed in Nevada.

3) Now the caveats: what we seem to be seeing so far, at least in Clark County, is there is quite a bit of ambiguity in the first two traits. Specifically we've found snakes that are clearly Pyrrhus in appearance that lack a row of naso-rostrals or have what Klauber described as incomplete separation of the pre-nasal and rostral scales. The incomplete separation is also observed on some individuals ID'd as stephensi. We have also found Pyrrhus-appearance snakes that have pitted, furrowed, or irregular supra-oculars. Also all stephensi I have found have at least furrowed/pitted supra-oculars, and several have the deep "suture" that runs the length of the scale. A quick review of NAFHA records will show that Seth Williams and myself have 30-35 mitchelli and stephensi records in Clark county, plus a few more in adjacent Inyo Co. Anyone interested in the details can view these picks with a good photo editing software if they want to count inter-nasal scales or look at supra-oculars up close. My 21 March 2016 mitchelli record is the one Jimi refers to as a possible intergrade. We've also had a few folks find "speck-like" snakes in Lincoln county north of their current range maps (and east of the current stephensi range maps). Bottom line, I thing something very interesting is going on. Who knows what the picture is like further west? Hard to say, but I believe Klauber was a pretty observant individual, and his idea of a broad integration zone from Barstow to Ivanpah to Hoover Dam certainly merits further study....although I think the zone is well north of Hoover Dam on our side of the Mojave desert.

4) What can you and other field herpers do to help? I'm understandably reluctant to recommend tubing every snake to get detailed head scale photos (both for the risk to the handler and the stress on the snake), but the better close-up head shots that you can SAFELY obtain for NAFHA voucher, the better, and also a photo that shows the overall pattern and a good view of the tail. Also SAFELY salvaging road kill specimens and getting them into a freezer, and then a university collection, would be great.

Cheers,
Steve

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by hellihooks » May 9th, 2016, 5:14 pm

Good stuff, Steve... :thumb:

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by klawnskale » May 10th, 2016, 4:53 am

Thanks Steve for your further descriptive observations. So are you and Bob beginning to see a pattern of phenotypic ambiguity between the two species in geographic areas of known intergration?

I guess sampling a greater number of individuals is in order.
So then what you're
implying is that depending on where they are found the only sure way to positively ID individuals found in known areas of intergration would be genetic analysis. And so the intrigue continues...

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Fundad » May 10th, 2016, 9:13 am

Dr Emily Taylor is well respected and well connected. Since they had the snake in hand I am pretty sure she could ID it, or seek qualified opinions on the animal.

Remember it wasn't long ago that specks and panamints were classified as one species and the lines of separation aren't clearly defined.

I have no reason to doubt Dr Taylor and NAFHA and our members will not and IS not questioning this find, despite the fact this is posted on this forum.

Thank You
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California Chapter President

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by klawnskale » May 10th, 2016, 2:05 pm

Fundad wrote:Dr Emily Taylor is well respected and well connected. Since they had the snake in hand I am pretty sure she could ID it, or seek qualified opinions on the animal.

Remember it wasn't long ago that specks and panamints were classified as one species and the lines of separation aren't clearly defined.

I have no reason to doubt Dr Taylor and NAFHA and our members will not and IS not questioning this find, despite the fact this is posted on this forum.

Thank You
Brian Hinds
California Chapter President
I posed this question without regard to personal biases. I am not a NAFHA member with no personal affiliations to any group of professionals. My query was based on reports and literature I have read. I don't know what your personal issue was, Fundad in regard to this query, but I personally have no leanings or affiliations with any specific group of individuals; academic, amateur, professional or otherwise. So, I posed the question out of curiosity and the hope it would lead to a productive thought provoking discussion. Which it has... ;) And yes; it has shown that there are some very knowledgeable people regarding the two species. I also always bear in mind that we are all capable of making errors...

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Fundad » May 10th, 2016, 2:39 pm

I have zero personal issue with your post, and I only pointed out our official stance on this post, for the sake or clarity, on "our" forum.

If I had issue with this post it would have disappeared.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Porter » May 11th, 2016, 11:48 am

That's a mint. You can tell by the color and pattern. Not too sure where they found it but I found DORs that same color of yellow on the eastern side

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by s_stocking » May 12th, 2016, 8:18 am

Hanna,

I can confidently say that the supraoculars as a discriminating trait is not really effective in Clark county, as both stephensi and Pyrrhus have pitted, creased, or irregular ones. Also the row of small scales around the rostrals is questionable- Stebbins has an illustration that shows 7 small scales around the rostral. I haven't seen a Clark county speck with that many scales- I've seen a few with 6, but 3-5 (larger scales) is much more common, and that is also typical in stephensi. Also sometimes this can't be determined because of photo quality.

Having said that, most of the time we can confidently assign to one species or the other, often using tail differences, and the other traits that Klauber, Douglas, and Stebbins don't address (blue-grey mask, dorsal/lateral ground color comparison, and the "speckling" vs "sharpness" of the overall pattern. The 21 March snake is an exception because it seems truely intermediate.

As far as genetics, Douglas et al used 18 stephensi and 83 Pyrrhus to develop their average sequence divergences. The paper says they selected from across the species' range but I can't tell from the paper how many, if any, came from Clark county or otherwise along these "contact zones". If they sampled from both sides of the divide it would be interesting to know what the sequence divergence is between Clark county stephensi and Clark county Pyrrhus....

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by hellihooks » May 12th, 2016, 4:30 pm

One of the first things i look for, in Mints... is the white border around each blotch... but i've yet to see that mentioned, as an ID key (am i in left field, here?) also... for the snake that you guys consider an actual intergrade (big ups BTW)... do both mints and specks occur in the same range? I'm having a very difficult time finding a range, where this is the case... (though... Calico's look promising... following up on leads/sightings)... :thumb:

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by fangmaster » May 13th, 2016, 2:57 pm

Hard to tell from this picture, but looks like a mitchelli

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by rpecora » May 13th, 2016, 3:03 pm

hellihooks wrote:One of the first things i look for, in Mints... is the white border around each blotch... but i've yet to see that mentioned, as an ID key (am i in left field, here?) also... for the snake that you guys consider an actual intergrade (big ups BTW)... do both mints and specks occur in the same range? I'm having a very difficult time finding a range, where this is the case... (though... Calico's look promising... following up on leads/sightings)... :thumb:
Jim, you cannot go by the white outline for mints. I've seen way to many with blotches bordered with white that are not.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by hellihooks » May 13th, 2016, 3:09 pm

rpecora wrote:
hellihooks wrote:One of the first things i look for, in Mints... is the white border around each blotch... but i've yet to see that mentioned, as an ID key (am i in left field, here?) also... for the snake that you guys consider an actual intergrade (big ups BTW)... do both mints and specks occur in the same range? I'm having a very difficult time finding a range, where this is the case... (though... Calico's look promising... following up on leads/sightings)... :thumb:
Jim, you cannot go by the white outline for mints. I've seen way to many with blotches bordered with white that are not.
believe it when i see it??? :lol: show me a pic... or it never happened... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by rpecora » May 13th, 2016, 4:16 pm

These are just two examples, I can probably dig up more.

Image

Image

Here is one that is very similar in appearance to the one in question here.

Image

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by hellihooks » May 14th, 2016, 3:51 am

i still see the wht ring... though greatly reduced in the second... is the first one that we found??? good times... :thumb:

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by rpecora » May 14th, 2016, 8:37 am

None of those are obviously panamints, and found well out of their known geological range. You must have misunderstood my meaning.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Porter » May 15th, 2016, 7:06 am

I think Jim is referring to the panamints that are found on the Eastern Slope of the Sierra Nevadas. the ones on the western side of the Inyo mountains look like the red one below. it's because each of them resemble the gravel or dirt of the habitat. both are found only 15 minutes away from each other. and then over the inyos on the Eastern side is where you find the yellowish ones like the one they're holding in Hannah's photo link. the first Panamint I ever found was actually a Yellow Version DOR.

where is Gary at? He's the one that's called me on the red and colorful ones... I'm sure he has some good knowledge on the subject. they are definitely my favorite rattlesnake! Absolutely beautiful. however I am fairly partial to Sidewinders ;)


ImagePanamint Rattlesnake by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr


ImagePanamint Rattlesnake by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by hellihooks » May 15th, 2016, 7:38 am

What I was trying to say is/was... when there is a white ring of scales around each blotch... good bet it's a Mint... :thumb:

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Porter » May 15th, 2016, 8:15 am

hellihooks wrote:What I was trying to say is/was... when there is a white ring of scales around each blotch... good bet it's a Mint... :thumb:
Dude... Jim..... I knew what you mint! :lol:

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by rpecora » May 15th, 2016, 8:41 am

You both obviously dissed the point I was making. You cannot go by the apparent white bordering of the blotches/banding of these animals for identification. Hell porter, you posted a pic of what your calling a mint (I'm sure it is) without any white bordering. The white bordering doesn't mean a damn thing for identification, that's my point. Jim's knowledge is OK, but his assumption in this case would lead people to be skeptical.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by hellihooks » May 15th, 2016, 9:12 am

never claimed to be an expert on panamints.... it was fleildnotes who pointed out to me, the white bordering as an ID Key... or... at best... a good clue. :beer:

https://youtu.be/lcHy8xEt2QI?t=3

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by rpecora » May 15th, 2016, 9:22 am

OK

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Porter » May 15th, 2016, 9:33 am

rpecora wrote:You both obviously dissed the point I was making. You cannot go by the apparent white bordering of the blotches/banding of these animals for identification. Hell porter, you posted a pic of what your calling a mint (I'm sure it is) without any white bordering. The white bordering doesn't mean a damn thing for identification, that's my point. Jim's knowledge is OK, but his assumption in this case would lead people to be skeptical.
Nope. Not dissing anyone. I said what I said and thats all that I said... I think Jim is referring to the panamints On the eastern sierra slope (that have white around the blotches)... amd your referring to the yellow (that Ive seen) and the red one in my pic (that dont have white around blotches)

Amd then I made a clever funny play on words 8-)

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Porter » May 15th, 2016, 9:34 am

hellihooks wrote:never claimed to be an expert on panamints.... it was fleildnotes who pointed out to me, the white bordering as an ID Key... or... at best... a good clue. :beer:

https://youtu.be/lcHy8xEt2QI?t=3

:lol: :lol: :lol:
He musta meant the siearrans... because Ive talked with him on here about the huge difference in them only 15 mins away like mentioned. He knew before i ever found mine and posted them. Prolly just misunderstanding

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by rpecora » May 15th, 2016, 9:40 am

I wasn't referring to what you think I was. You may want to start over and try to understand the full context of our posts. I think Jim gets it now.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by rpecora » May 15th, 2016, 9:52 am

Porter, I was referring to the white outline in differentiating stephensi vs pyrrhus, which was the dialog between Jim and I. That's all.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Porter » May 15th, 2016, 12:40 pm

rpecora wrote:I wasn't referring to what you think I was. You may want to start over and try to understand the full context of our posts. I think Jim gets it now.
what did you think I thought you were refering to? Lol I read the post, I know exactly what you guys are talking about. I'm just added my knowledge of panamints to a post asking about peoples knowledge about panamints. (dude, wtf? Lol) This is an informational post, I have a couple good shots, of a couple variations, so I posted :| not taking sides, just giving visual aids and a possible solution to the confusion...

-porter

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Porter » May 15th, 2016, 12:44 pm

You're saying that just because a Panamint has white around the blotches, doesn't necessarily mean it's a Panamint... Pretty Elementary concept. I get it Lol I'm literally displaying it in my photos and backing up what you're saying so I don't know what you're trying to tell me that I didn't know there was no white on the red Panamint of the photo that I took, that I can see with my own eyes LOL pretty crazy dude I'm done with this

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by rpecora » May 15th, 2016, 6:02 pm

The original post was a discussion of whether or not the speck in question was a panamint or a southwestern speckled. What Jim originally stated was
One of the first things i look for, in Mints... is the white border around each blotch
What I was conveying is that is not the case as plenty of pyrrhus have that trait also. You brought up the other things such as eastern sierra's and yellow color, and not all panamints have the white border...I didn't. Bottom line, I know you agree, the white bordering doesn't mean anything in identification in these two types of specks. No worries.

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Porter » May 16th, 2016, 7:59 am

Ok, I reread from a different perspective last night and see now that you thought I was agreeing with Jim's method of mint IDing or/and now thinking I'm suggesting an alternative. My intentions were simply adding on some fine detail to an already clearly displayed concept by what everyone else had previously posted. I giving some further enlighentment, as I saw no need to reiterate the previous comments to mine. I'm glad we have now come around to full spectrum. carry on...

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by rpecora » May 16th, 2016, 8:11 am

I wasn't thinking you were agreeing with Jim at all. What I was try to convey was...never mind you obviously missed the point.

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Fundad
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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Fundad » May 16th, 2016, 11:23 am

If one applies the Biological species concept, you will see areas in integration/hybrids and lots variability in the contact zones from both of these species, therefore one would need to sample 1,000's of different individuals across the touch zones. Good luck with that.

If one applies the evolutionary species concept you'll need a DNA kit for many of the snakes found.

Good Luck with all of that. Other than that it is a matter of opinion and speculation of one of the applied concepts.

Good luck with that too.

Therefore, this conversation will never have absolute answers of clarity or sureness.

My Two Cents

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by hellihooks » May 16th, 2016, 2:10 pm

Fundad wrote:If one applies the Biological species concept, you will see areas in integration/hybrids and lots variability in the contact zones from both of these species,
Perhaps you know more than I (it's happened before :crazyeyes: ) but... finding specks and Panamint in the same RANGE (much less obvious intergrades) seems to be quite the chore... :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by Steve Bledsoe » May 16th, 2016, 2:18 pm

Fundad wrote: Therefore, this conversation will never have absolute answers of clarity or sureness.
Ah yes. Just the sort of thing this crowd thrives on! :lol:

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Re: Need Expert Opinion On Panamint Rattlesnake ID

Post by hellihooks » May 16th, 2016, 2:59 pm

Steve Bledsoe wrote:
Fundad wrote: Therefore, this conversation will never have absolute answers of clarity or sureness.
Ah yes. Just the sort of thing this crowd thrives on! :lol:
yeah... no doubt... it should be 'surety'... not sureness... :shock: let's debate it... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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