Why You Dont Collect

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RenoBart
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by RenoBart » July 29th, 2016, 7:32 am

jonathan wrote:Except that's not the problem, or the answer, at all.

Americans consume 20-40x as much as people in many other countries. And there's virtually no limit on how much habitat an individual human can choose to consume/destroy - the wealthier they are, the more they want to destroy, and wealth keeps going up and up and up. The differences in reproductive rates across humanity are dwarfed by the differences in consumption rates.

Even if we limited to 2 children/family and population stabilized (which is NOT an easy problem, but could only happen under ridiculous draconian measures and massive human rights violations), it wouldn't stabilize for 50 years due to population demographics, and we're already at a population level where American consumption rates would outstrip the entire globe 4x over. If you want to eventually get down to 1 billion people and make American consumption rates okay, do you realize the demographic, infrastructure, and political nightmare that will hit long before you get there? Not to mention the draconian methods you'll take.

And what do you say to the poor Indian couple who has 2 kids and they're both girls, so they have no one to care for them in their old age because sons stay with their own parents? Or the family that only has 1-2 kids but constantly worries that they'll die from malnutrition/tuberculosis and then they'll be left with no one? Or the farming families that would lose their property and lives if they didn't have multiple children to pass the farm onto?

Population control isn't a workable solution logistically, it isn't the right answer theoretically, and . It's almost always proposed by older elites in wealthy high-consumption lifestyles who have already spent their seed or decided that they didn't want to be bothered with raising children for other reasons (not saying this is you, but from having taken a good glance at who is on the boards of the kind of groups who propose this nonsense). They don't want to realize that THEY, and not someone else's kids, are the real problem.

We do need to help populations in poor and desperate places stabilize. And history has shown over and over that's done by bringing education (both academic/literate and practical), good health care, and some form of relative stability. When people are assured that their kids are going to grow up to adulthood, when they have access and knowledge to the options available ahead, when both girls and boys can get an education and make a living and making their own decision to support their own parents, and when families have the ability to pour a lot of resources into a few kids rather than having a lot and hoping to hit the jackpot...they tend to reduce family size on their own.
Jonathan, as I said originally, I know I have an idealistic point of view about population control. And I agree, the ONLY way to achieve it would be through drastic and draconian measures, because socially we will never overcome the issue on our own. And I agree that here in America we are among the worst consumers on the planet, and we love to tell other countries that they are the ones that need to stop polluting and destroying the environment, only after a century of of doing it ourselves. And in knowing this, I am only left with a very, very dark image of the future. And it sucks.

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Porter
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Porter » July 29th, 2016, 9:18 am

L

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » July 29th, 2016, 11:28 am

Porter wrote:
Porter wrote:I probably have the most obscure and contradictive opinion towards this, but I'll go ahead and add some note here...
I dunno, I worked for years in a place that sold reptiles and had to stop selling them. While I was still there. |:

Ive seen much.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » July 29th, 2016, 12:06 pm

I learned something though. That people are teachable and that a whim impulse to get "something else" can be channeled into re-igniting enthusiasm for the animal they already have - that they have found boring or that the cost of a larger environment or media isnt worth it. But it took time and effort and hands on help. But it happens only that way - with much effort.

It will always take more time to motivate a person to look again with fresh perspective at the animal and circumstance they have had for a while, than pulling a 10 slide kit off a shelf and bagging up another baby snake of a different color.

There are circumstances when person needs to be told No i wont place this animal with you, regardless of the fact they have the money to buy it.

They aren't inanimate products.




typo, but grammatically significant

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » July 29th, 2016, 2:03 pm

Re: WC ; People who had acquired wild caught reptiles and amphibians presented with a dependable regularity of tendencies about getting their needs met [it could qualify as greater resistance than observed for animals purchased]

While people who had acquired a previously owned reptile in a rescue format, whether informally or through agency, showed the most long term commitment, space liberality, and monetary willingness over all. Whether WC native or CB exotic.

I was able to establish this through interactions with these people that spanned significant time frames and frequent often weekly contact for food items and various resources.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » July 29th, 2016, 4:34 pm

There were exceptions to the above overview of clients of course.

I dont see much dialogue brought to the table about this aspect of the reptile keeping hobby, by providers.

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Porter
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Porter » July 29th, 2016, 6:12 pm

,

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » July 29th, 2016, 6:47 pm

She'll find you. Its bound to happen.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by steeve11 » July 30th, 2016, 1:46 am

I really don't know why I collect; and it's not just snakes, but all kinds of things, living or not, from before I can remember to my current age of 70. Snakes are the latest; although I have had a few over my younger years; one day, off-roading in the desert, I found 11 Sidewinders, that I had to bring home; tossed them in the 12 foot square atrium of my home for a few days; my room mate promptly got his things together and moved out..... Now, after a recent move from the city to the stix, I have re discovered Herps and have accumulated around a dozen, a few collected on my land, then some purchased from breeders. I want to try breeding the cal kings out of curiosity and maybe supplement the local population (please no comments required on that; I am a scoff-law and don't care who knows it). I travel the world for no other reason than to collect and study insects; I have a museum size collection including a few un described species. I am a spear fisherman as well, and have accumulated a large fish-mount collection, which I display on the walls of my home; everything from a flying fish to a 200 pound tuna. I am not just interested in flora and fauna, but have a car collection as well as guns, knives, and pictures of ex wives. My friends say I am eccentric, but I am probably just crazy.
I believe everyone is different and has their own ideas of what they should or should not do. In the end, the snakes all die and so do we.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by stlouisdude » July 30th, 2016, 4:49 am

Hi Steve,

That sounds like a good range of hobbies. Have you ever considered adding fossil hunting to the list? There is something to be said for knowing you were the one who found that particular snake, knowing exactly where it came from, etc. The nice thing about looking for snakes is its an active pursuit. I could never sit in a deer stand all day, I would be bored to tears. The spear fishing sounds interesting.

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John Delgado
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by John Delgado » July 30th, 2016, 8:31 am

As of about 3 years ago a noob herper, I choose NOT to collect and these are my thoughts on the matter.

My main interest is rattlesnakes, although I will photograph, H.E.R.P. voucher, just about anything I see that I find interesting.

And to those who do collect for the interest of teaching and guiding the young in respect of nature and it's fine critters ... I tip my hat and say good job. I have a friend here on FHF who is a teacher. He collects herps and cares for them in his classroom ... much respect to him for what he does, and what he teaches, so our young may grow to appreciate our wildlife ecosystem.

However, to those who collect for personal interest because a rattlesnake is "so awesome" I say FOOEY on you ...!

Rattlesnakes are one of natures most awesome creature (IMO), and in nature in their own natural habitat is where they aught be left to thrive and do what rattlesnakes do.

When we venture into nature to seek out, experience and enjoy these marvelous animals as they live in their God given home. We venture into their living room as guests to visit and experience their natural majestic beauty. And as guests in THEIR home we need act respectfully in compliance to nature.

I wouldn't think of bring a rattlesnake home and keeping it in a 12" x 32" terrarium ... seriously SMH ...!!! - Hey ... why not go out into Northern California, dig up a 342 foot redwood tree, bring it home into your living room ...? - Doesn't make sense.

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Porter
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Porter » July 30th, 2016, 11:27 am

,

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Porter » July 30th, 2016, 11:59 am

B

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WSTREPS
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by WSTREPS » July 30th, 2016, 3:30 pm

The biggest target right now is probably turtles, but I don't know the actual numbers exported and how many were wild caught as opposed to captive born.

I cant tell you the exact numbers exported. But its both cb and wc. Again numbers have to be kept in proper perspective to the overall numbers of the species involved.

I would agree with the first line about turtles. Comparatively it still is because so little commercial collection is done these days in the states as far as other species go. Even at its peak the commercial collection of reptiles in the states was never that big. If you actually understand how collection number's , time frames, catch methods etc. relate to species populations, ranges etc. Most people see a raw number and that's all they know. They have no actual perspective. But there's a lot more to it if you want a complete and factual picture. I don't like the large scale commercial turtle business but that is based on personal feelings, I'm a very objective person. Id rather know the actual facts then just support my belief on emotion.

Chinese turtle farms are government funded, well run and highly successful. Initially they needed turtles for food markets and breeding stock. Now that their operation's are maturing they are becoming self sufficient. When I say successful I mean they produce 10's of millions of turtles. Their growouts are cycling. Catching turtles to sell to the Chinese market at this time is a fruitless adventure. The export market is quickly shrinking (really its over) for most of the people that were involved. The huge US based farms still have export outlets. For the private trappers that could get by during the turtle gold rush, today, You will lose your ass trying to collect softshells and snaps for the Asian market. Not that your ever going to hear or read that in any news article or published paper. Why kill off a good villain?
I'm also curious how the turtle farming industry works, as in do they mass collect wild turtles for the farming operation? If anyone knows actual facts, it would be interesting to hear though a bit off topic.
Turtle farming industry,

Yes, they do collect wild turtles legally and obviously sustainably for various reasons. There is a lot of regulation involved with turtle farming. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife regulates the legal trade of turtles and ensures trade is conducted at sustainable levels. Red sliders, Softshells and snapping turtles top the list. The big farms mostly based in Louisiana are impressive operations to say the least producing millions of cb turtles. As slick as the setups are. Commercial turtle farming is back breaking work (I've done it as a helper). Anyone wanting to get into the large scale commercial turtle farming business today should reconsider, they will regret it.

On the pet side. Specialty breeders are doing remarkable things. Breeding all kinds of amazing animals. Right now I think that's the most interesting part of the live trade. The only reason wild caught turtles are sold now for all intensive purposes in the live trade is to provide breeders with founder stock.

Ernie Eison

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » July 30th, 2016, 5:38 pm

The collecting instinct. Yes I have it. I have collected over the years a large inventory of branches, bark, rocks slabs, pebbles, stones and heat treat them and modify their shape for use if needed. I also collect files and other implements to use to work on my sticks and stones. I like to work by hand because I like it although it is slow, and also because I dont have enough work space for using power tools other than a dremel. I like my dremel but still love my files more.

I am always on strive toward a goal I have of making the perimeters of a captive environment disappear to its inhabitant.

Its my goal and I believe in the strive for it.

stlouisdude
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by stlouisdude » July 30th, 2016, 6:35 pm

Ernie, that makes sense, Asia can probably produce their own turtles cheaper than we can send them ours, The grocery store is loaded with frog legs, fish, etc, raised in Asia, not here.

Kelley, I would argue captive animals have a better life than wild ones in terms of health, so I've never tried too hard to make my cages overly naturalistic although I do use natural substrates. A human being living in the wilds of Africa had a pretty hard life and many died before their first birthday. So it is with wild herps to, they have better protection from ailments, antibiotics & advanced medical care, etc. If I could chose to be a wild herp or at my place, I'd choose my place hands down. All of my snakes get free food, free medical care, choice of at least a couple of mates to pick from, and perfect weather.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » July 30th, 2016, 8:14 pm

I think animals in the wild - including snakes - are more mentally alert, have more constitutional vitality, have better muscle tone and responses, and receive rich dimensional stimuli with the reality they have evolved in, including their vigilance to predation and forage for prey.

So, no argument here. or maybe so? lol

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Porter
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Porter » July 31st, 2016, 7:33 am

,v

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Porter
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Porter » July 31st, 2016, 8:21 am

C

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » July 31st, 2016, 3:21 pm

I love the Walking Dead. I often use it as an imaginary Litmus for fun, on who I would trust or make camp with, and who would have to uh, Go.

Back to snakes, there is something I call The Utopic Effect that relates to the relaxing of vigilance and some other behaviors of confidence that occurs in captivity with reptiles, and other animals too.

Yeah I have a lot of things I would like to share that I have procrastinated on thru severe dislike of going on the photobucket site

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » July 31st, 2016, 4:29 pm

Porter, the Woodpecker branch sounds sweet.

steeve11
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by steeve11 » July 31st, 2016, 5:39 pm

I don't have a TV or radio, (no service out here). last time I watched TV was before I moved here and before they changed the broadcasting system, so my TV didn't work any more. I only watched Nature documentaries and the Simpsons then anyway. Rat "music" was just getting started on the radio. Who can stand to listen to that crap. News was all bad. What happened to "lake woebegone"? Unless I drive to town for grub, I don't see humans for weeks at a time; just the Fed Ex guy, when he can find my place, and a couple guys from the region's Field Target club, whom I allow to use my land for their Air Gun practice. I am pretty much out of the loop these days, which can be both good or bad, depending on my mood.
Two days ago, I made the 30 mile trek to the LLL store with my two lc Cal Kings that I tried to breed this spring.....turned out as expected, they were both females and straight. need to trade somebody for a male for next season....any takers?
Spent yesterday building more mouse/rat live traps. I need to up the catch rate, as my little snakes are turning into big ones. I picked up a Crote a couple weeks ago to see how he deals with the big Wood rats, which are the primary carriers of Chagas disease around these parts, but so far he is not even interested in Kangaroo rats or deer mice. Will probably skin him soon and add his hyde, Clyde, to my wall collection; don't want these bad boys lurking around my place.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by stlouisdude » July 31st, 2016, 6:36 pm

I got rid of cable television in the early 90s, best thing I ever did! I have a tv someone gave me, 3 or 4 times a year I just rent a DVD from redbox if there's something I want to see.

Do you trap all your own rodents?

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » July 31st, 2016, 6:54 pm

Wow how Butch!

steeve11
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by steeve11 » July 31st, 2016, 8:59 pm

I have a small breeder colony of white mice out in the chicken coop, which was just barely producing enough pinks and fuzzies for my young snakes, but I am having to supplement with more trapped rodents lately, as they grow. I have to keep the rodents killed off around the house anyway, as they cause several other problems. I think I need a really big snake, like a Boa or Python, to take advantage of all the rabbits and squirrels I have to trap or shoot too; the Vultures clean up everything that the local Hawks, and Coyotes miss, which isn't much. My nearest neighbor said he cleaned a large Tuna last week and went back out to burry the carcass after dinner, but it was already gone. I once was watching a Roadrunner hunting the west edge of my property along the brush line and a Red Tail dove in from behind me and hit the road runner just as it made cover in the brush. I was sitting on my quad and decided to ride over to see if the hawk got him, but just then I saw a Coyote come running from a hill to the south, across the open field. He had seen the incident and was hoping to cash in, but he saw me approaching and went back in the brush. I didn't find the hawk or road runner when I got there. I thought that experience was pretty cool.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » July 31st, 2016, 10:20 pm

It sure sounds like you have a Beautiful thing going and I'm sure you appreciate it.

Hope you decide to resolve the issue with the Crote you picked up for the big rats who isn't serving your purpose; per some expedience as it sounds like things might be kind of sucking for him, though.

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Porter
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Porter » August 1st, 2016, 4:08 pm

.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » August 1st, 2016, 4:26 pm

Porter, I dont subscribe to the Post De-Railment Thing.

I think the Butterfly Effect in attention frame is fine.. If it's a problem for a reader it only takes a miniature wisking motion of a small portion of finger skin to scroll up.

I like your stories and the warm red blood cells they circulate on the forum threads.

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Porter
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Porter » August 1st, 2016, 4:39 pm

.

dthor68
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by dthor68 » August 2nd, 2016, 6:04 am

For me it just never felt right taking an animal from its home. Believe me I tried numerous times as a child. I would catch a snake, bring it home keep it for a day or two and release it where I found it. The longest I ever kept a wild animal was 4 days and only because it was an hour long hike back to its home. I have always looked at people who profit from selling wild caught animals as being the lowest form of human. It is such a selfish act. It is an act that I would not partake in even if I were dirt poor. And it is not just animals, I feel the same way about those people who take bucket loads of blueberries from the Blue Ridge Parkway and sell them at market.

steeve11
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by steeve11 » August 2nd, 2016, 7:58 pm

Do you feel the same about people that hunt or gather for their sustenance? I see no difference....selling what you hunt or gather is the same as consuming it your self; you're just adding a middle step, money, which is just a means used to convert your work into food & shelter and other necessities;(money is necessary in a civilized world; you would get tired of eating blueberries). Personally, I think a lower form of human is one who would rather sponge off the Government or off sympathetic people that work for a living, I would even rate Prostitutes and politicians above free-loaders.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » August 2nd, 2016, 8:36 pm

dthor68 wrote:For me it just never felt right taking an animal from its home. Believe me I tried numerous times as a child. I would catch a snake, bring it home keep it for a day or two and release it where I found it. The longest I ever kept a wild animal was 4 days and only because it was an hour long hike back to its home. I have always looked at people who profit from selling wild caught animals as being the lowest form of human. It is such a selfish act. It is an act that I would not partake in even if I were dirt poor. And it is not just animals, I feel the same way about those people who take bucket loads of blueberries from the Blue Ridge Parkway and sell them at market.

I think the above reflects a respectable view.

The mindset of doing whatever one wants above the effect it has on others - and animals are others, could be categorized as psychopathy. Our culture finds acceptable and rewards psychopathic behavior in specifically enabled formats - cut throat corporate dynamics, are example. But its a permeating mindset that has resulted in a profoundly sick society.

You can Steve O, use this thread to promote sandbag bunker views about minorities or whatever you seem to be stretching for, but its not relevant.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by dthor68 » August 3rd, 2016, 8:06 am

steeve11 wrote:Do you feel the same about people that hunt or gather for their sustenance? I see no difference....selling what you hunt or gather is the same as consuming it your self; you're just adding a middle step, money, which is just a means used to convert your work into food & shelter and other necessities;(money is necessary in a civilized world; you would get tired of eating blueberries). Personally, I think a lower form of human is one who would rather sponge off the Government or off sympathetic people that work for a living, I would even rate Prostitutes and politicians above free-loaders.

It is 2016, there is no more a need to hunt and gather for sustenance. Today we get our sustenance from Bilo, Food Lion, Publix, etc. The human race is no longer part of the food chain and everything we do alters it greatly.

What you are selling is not yours to begin with. It is everyone's, better yet, no one's. Public property is everyone's, whether it be a National Park, National Forest, State Park(for the people of that state) or any public roadway. What gives you the right to sell an animal that is there for every American to enjoy? It is not yours to sell so that means you are stealing and sponging off of our land. Which, by the way, is much worse than sponging off of the government. It is much more easier to replace money than our natural world and its resources. You are taking something that belongs to everyone, selling it, and calling the poor and disabled free-loaders. Dude, you are the free-loader!

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » August 3rd, 2016, 8:41 am

A person who lives in the middle of a nature preserve and is fortunate enough to travel the world to collect insects, what more could be wanted?

No taxes, I guess right?

I thought it was cute that he capitalized Prostitutes ;)

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by steeve11 » August 3rd, 2016, 11:16 am

I am a retired small manufacturing business owner. I still pay high property taxes,(California), 8% state sales tax on purchases and the rest, except for income tax, which I am exempt from, due to my current low income level; (Social Security and a legitimate partial disability from the VA). I have nothing against poor or disabled people. I do take issue with those who are young and able to work but choose to live off the backs of others. If there is something that grows in the wild and is legal for some enterprising individual to harvest and sell, good on them. Food does not come from the store; it comes from land which was taken from natural habitat; Wild animals and plants must die or be moved somewhere. Humans do compete with animals for food and habitat which may be viewed as unfortunate by some, but it is a fact. The time is approaching when man will destroy himself and probably most of nature as well. Worrying about collecting snakes is trivial in comparison. Finally, collected snakes will nearly always be seen and appreciated by more people than those left in the wild, most never to be seen by anyone. That's just my opinion on the question.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by WSTREPS » August 3rd, 2016, 12:39 pm

If collecting animals for profit constitutes the lowest form of human in the uneducated small minded opinion of some. The scientific community must then account for the lowest rung of that ladder. They are some of history's biggest and most self-serving commercial collectors. Certainly the most wide ranging and indiscriminate.

Unlike other forms of collection that concentrate on common and sustainably harvested animals for pets. Or collection that can provide breeding stock in the hopes that future collection can become passé. Or collection that provides important income to community's whos family's would otherwise starve. Collection in the world of science is completely self serving.

No one has garnered more pay checks from the collection and killing of wild animal's then the world of science. In the world of science no one benefits from the killing of these animals but the scientist themselves.

Science takes and kills it all. From tiny bugs to lions. They kill everything and store them all in drawers and jars , dusty old mounts and picture frames. Massive mausoleums comprised of millions of examples of the earth's wildlife from every category and all killed for nothing. With new "specimens " being killed and added all the time. A catalog of corpses to be profited from. You can save the, that's different because its for research crap. No one needs to know a birds molecular systematics or have thousands of dead snakes so they can count scales for taxonomic descriptions . Its commercial collection that is as selfish as anyone else's and more so.

The Smithsonian Institution is just one example.

The Division of Amphibians and Reptiles, National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution, houses and maintains the largest herpetology collection in the world with over 555,000 specimens. Our collection, comprised primarily of fluid preserved specimens, includes representatives of about 63% of the approximately 15,000 known species of the world's herpetofauna.

That's just the herpetology collection . They have an even larger number of dead birds over 625,000 specimens not including the 10's of thousand's of eggs taken by nest robbing scientist for collection. And these numbers run the gamut across the board of all living thing's. The Smithsonian Institution is the worlds largest slaughter house. And there are over 50,000 others located in in hundreds of country's that do the same.


Sustainable harvest has proven to be one of the most, if not the most effective of all conservation protocols. People that are well versed and understanding of wildlife management issues. Know the importance of sustainable harvest in finding workable solutions for people and conservation.

One example of sustainable harvest and its benefits.

The ball python trade. The Wildlife Department in Ghana gets a tax of a $1.00 for every egg and another $1.00 for every python exported. The Wildlife Department also charges for collecting and releasing the females after they lay their eggs. The females are held about two weeks. In addition a percentage of the hatched babies have to be released each year. The money brought in by all these fees is used for wildlife department projects. Money they desperately need to help preserve wildlife. The money made by the exporters is very important to the local economy.

The numbers available are monitored and controlled by CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Flora and Fauna). The total number of export permits for the three major country's that export ball pythons this year was around 120, 0000 total , That's permits not the actual number of animal's exported. The wild population in Ghana alone has been estimated to be as high as 16 million with 9 – 14 million hatching each year. If the maximum number of animal's were exported it would only comprise a small percentage of the total population. The vast majority of the ball pythons range goes uncollected. I know that there is no way to accurately measure a snake species population but. Ball pythons are as common today after 25 years of this practice as they were before. The system works.

This is far better solution to the issue of catching and killing the animals to sell for food. A dead snake will make you money one time, a live snake will keep making you money, a live snake needs a place to live. Don't believe me? There are that planes leaving for Ghana every day. Go see for yourself. The 2nd week of April is best.

Ernie Eison

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » August 3rd, 2016, 2:18 pm

Thats some interesting inside information on the ball python trade and about the Smithsonian minions of specimens, especially considering their stated opinion of keeping reptiles in captivity.

My opinions are deeply hued by things ive seen in my work, I have seen suffering.

I dont work in the genre of captives any more - it wasnt all bad and as I had control I did my own thing and tried to help as I saw fit. But the fit was not flush, it was a conflict.

I still have my own animals, all of them gifts or rescues and I keep them to observe them but Im not under any illusion - no matter how much I put into it, there are missing factors, climatic, barometric, and sheer spatial scope only to name a very few cues that prevent a true representation beyond a comfortable semi stimulating simulacrum of their lives in the wild but I keep trying to move foward to give as much as i can.

I dont like suffering and an individual animal suffering, even if it is 'ecologically non existent' matters to me.

Jon-m
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jon-m » August 5th, 2016, 10:45 am

The most I've ever done is collect an animal and log its GPS location (Or mark the spot of collection before GPS), keep it in captivity for a few weeks to a few months, then re-release at the catch spot. I've only ever done this when I had no captive herps at my home and when the field collected animal was a hatching or juvie, something with a high probability of getting eaten by something else. I think in all the years I've been messing about in the field, that's probably only been 5 animals taken home and re-released.

I mostly don't collect because I field herp for completely different reasons than I captive keep. I like herps for their behavior. I field herp for the opportunity to observe them unaware of me, and see them act naturally. That's a rare treat. I keep species in captivity that I can't enjoy in nature, but that has a lot of difficulties of its own--namely the animals always being aware of me, and so never acting naturally. Pulling them from nature and putting them in a less enjoyable environment without cause doesn't do anything for me.

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lateralis
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by lateralis » August 5th, 2016, 3:37 pm

Does Arizona not frown upon capturing reptiles, keeping them in captivity, and then releasing them back into the wild ? California would have ones private parts in a vice for that activity. Though we can do it in the short term of a day or two I believe.

In terms of collecting, I do some here and there but primarily enjoy seeing them in the wild more than a tank these days. Not to say I wouldn't legally collect something I was especially interested in but these days most everything can be had on the Internet and it's a hell of a lot cheaper and probably healthier. I don't judge those who do collect I just hope it is done legally and with restraint and respect to the animal and its habitat.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » August 5th, 2016, 4:45 pm

It takes some particular circumstances to witness some behaviors in the wild. I did my most abundant herping when I lived in Florida and most snake behavior I saw was basking, on crawl and degrees of flight with my presence. Snakes dont want to be eaten, and anything larger is a potential Eater.

I think the utopic effect in captivity i mentioned may marr some natural behaviors but can be enabling of the visualizing of others.

I have seen discreet tail tip anchoring and topography edge 'hooking' of the tail tip - the tip as well as interesting timing of caudal exposure under lighting conditions that could be hard to see unless one could be close, at the right time, and from an observable vantage point in the wild.

I have also seen mechanical food manipulation in lizards, and water acquisition tactics, like sipping drops from the scales that might not be witnessed by an animal in any degree of alarm.

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mfb
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by mfb » August 6th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Kelly, Thanks for starting this thread. The great discussions and comments on this thread are one of the reasons I keep coming back to FHF.

This quote from Tamara is a good summary of why I don't collect pets now:
Tamara D. McConnell wrote:I don't collect because I am trying to get less responsibility, not more.
Between time for family and work, I don't want to spend free time cleaning cages at home. Occasionally I get tempted by an opportunity, but nowadays always turn it down. However, I grew up keeping a lot of herps (some from pet stores, some gifts, and some collected) as pets. It was an important part of my life and contributed to a life-long fascination with herps. What I learned from watching those animals still sticks in my mind. For example, I had a group of skinks that were fascinating to watch forage through their cage. I support people keeping herps as long as the herps are properly cared for, and the collection of the herp didn't harm the population. Perhaps when my kids are grown I'll get some more pet herps. But that is a long way off.
WSTREPS wrote: Science takes and kills it all. From tiny bugs to lions. They kill everything and store them all in drawers and jars , dusty old mounts and picture frames. Massive mausoleums comprised of millions of examples of the earth's wildlife from every category and all killed for nothing. With new "specimens " being killed and added all the time. A catalog of corpses to be profited from. You can save the, that's different because its for research crap. No one needs to know a birds molecular systematics or have thousands of dead snakes so they can count scales for taxonomic descriptions . Its commercial collection that is as selfish as anyone else's and more so.

The Smithsonian Institution is just one example.

The Division of Amphibians and Reptiles, National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution, houses and maintains the largest herpetology collection in the world with over 555,000 specimens. Our collection, comprised primarily of fluid preserved specimens, includes representatives of about 63% of the approximately 15,000 known species of the world's herpetofauna.
Ernie, I disagree with your characterization of the animals in museums as being "killed for nothing." Taxonomy is an important part of the value of collections, but there are many other reasons for why the existing collections are important, and why it is important to continue to add to collections of preserved material. Properly preserved and documented specimens give us records of the anatomy, health, disease / parasite infection, size, genetics and more characteristics at a particular place and time. In the herpetological world, preserved specimens collected over time have allowed scientists to identify the sources of amphibian deformities. The presence of the amphibian-killing chytrid infection in the skin of preserved specimens has helped scientists determine that chytrid was present in North America for decades. As an example outside of the herpetological world, changes in bird egshell thickness over time was linked to DDT use. And one of my favorite examples is research that used decades-old bird specimens to find out how how massive population bottlenecks in Illinois Prairie Chickens caused a tremendous loss of genetic diversity.

There are many articles that provide details and specific examples of the many ways natural history collections are used. One of my favorites is Andy Suarez and Neil Tsutsui's description of the many benefits of natural history collections. There are a number of other good articles, for example this one in the Guardian, and this one Carl Zimmer. You can also watch a video about controversy over natural history collections by Emily Graslie.

The scientists I know at natural history collections are careful to collect in a way that doesn't threaten existing populations. For many species, collecting a few individuals at a particular locality won't harm the species. But those specimens could contribute greatly to our understanding of the evolution, ecology, and conservation of the species decades later.

Best wishes,

Mike

stlouisdude
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by stlouisdude » August 6th, 2016, 7:53 pm

I normally agree with Ernie, but must say I also have no problem with collecting for museums. I think worrying over the amounts they collect is probably not a good use of my time. I suspect Ernie was just using the numbers to drive home a point, I would not expect this keeps him awake at night.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Tamara D. McConnell » August 6th, 2016, 8:10 pm

.

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Sam Sweet
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Sam Sweet » August 7th, 2016, 1:03 am

Over the years, Ernie, you've made it clear that you have no concept of research, no respect for people who do it, and no understanding of its value. YOU don't need to know DNA sequences of birds, we all accept that. What makes you such a clown fool is that you imagine that anybody else wants to live in Ernie-world. The ideal know-nothing forgets how to write or speak -- writing and talking are all about the conventions and rules you hate, so why not go full feral?

Collecting remains necessary for many types of research. Where it can be replaced by photos, nondestructive tissue sampling, roadkill salvage or any viable alternative, fine, and collecting ethics have evolved in exactly that way. Having specimens taken over time is critical for understanding many things that photos cannot replace -- appearance of environmental contaminants, diseases like Bd, physiological responses to stress, and answers to questions that have not yet arisen may not matter a flit in Ernie-world, but that's a Trsump hole.

steeve11
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by steeve11 » August 7th, 2016, 1:52 am

It seems to me that this thread is only asking individual opinions on the subject of collecting; soliciting opinion inevitably seems to digress into personal attack, at which point it becomes non productive and un-interesting for me; time to un-subscribe.
Cheers

dthor68
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by dthor68 » August 7th, 2016, 6:33 am

Sam Sweet wrote:Over the years, Ernie, you've made it clear that you have no concept of research, no respect for people who do it, and no understanding of its value. YOU don't need to know DNA sequences of birds, we all accept that. What makes you such a clown fool is that you imagine that anybody else wants to live in Ernie-world. The ideal know-nothing forgets how to write or speak -- writing and talking are all about the conventions and rules you hate, so why not go full feral?

Collecting remains necessary for many types of research. Where it can be replaced by photos, nondestructive tissue sampling, roadkill salvage or any viable alternative, fine, and collecting ethics have evolved in exactly that way. Having specimens taken over time is critical for understanding many things that photos cannot replace -- appearance of environmental contaminants, diseases like Bd, physiological responses to stress, and answers to questions that have not yet arisen may not matter a flit in Ernie-world, but that's a Trsump hole.
I don't think Ernie actually feels that way, it was the only thing he could think of to retaliate against my words. Let me make it clear that I am all for anything that science does, whether collecting or killing. I am ONLY against collecting for profit. I have and will always feel that it is a despicable, selfish act. For those of you who like to hoard herps, or any animals, seek help.

stlouisdude
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by stlouisdude » August 7th, 2016, 6:59 am

A personal pet peeve of mine is people who make comments that they don't have the experience to back up.. You do realize that researchers obtains sheds, venom samples, and so on from private keepers, right? Just take a search on faunaclassifieds and you'll see requests for such, but most of them seem to be between established contacts in the venomous community. As you say though, your mind is made up a no facts shall matter, the hallmark of a great scientist in the making I am sure. :roll:

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by dthor68 » August 7th, 2016, 7:36 am

steeve11 wrote:It seems to me that this thread is only asking individual opinions on the subject of collecting; soliciting opinion inevitably seems to digress into personal attack, at which point it becomes non productive and un-interesting for me; time to un-subscribe.
Cheers
You should not take what I say as a personal attack. I am attacking the whole "Collect for Profit" community, which is a very large community. Even the "ethically challenged" know deep down inside that the right thing to do is leave it where you find it. Never will anyone be able to say that what I am doing is wrong. This has nothing to do with opinions and it is not something that can be worked out with a productive discussion. it is simply knowing what is right and what is wrong. If anyone should be upset here it is me, as the majority of people on Field Herp Forum seem to have no problem with collecting for profit.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by stlouisdude » August 7th, 2016, 11:19 am

Generalizations are without exception a great tool for making enemies. If someone has a problem with a specific instance of a research project or import/export operation, it will be much more effective and generate far less enemies to discuss the specific example at hand. Lobbing generalizations around and expecting praise for it is a bit like getting the KKK and black panthers together and having each one shout racial insults to see who can be the loudest... it might make the participants feel better but everyone else just walks away shaking their heads in disgust.

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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Bryan Hamilton » August 7th, 2016, 11:44 am

Generalizations are without exception a great tool for making enemies.
I see what you did there and declare you my enemy for life. :x

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